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#61678 - 10/09/05 08:46 AM How about this idea for joeys
Anonymous
Unregistered


We came across a USDA breeder at a flea market selling joeys that didnt have eyes open yet...about 2 weeks oop. She says she has 40 breeding pair and they are ONLY breeders, not pets. Says she pulls ALL her joeys shortly after oop and feeds them bml only 3 times a day!...9A 3P and 9P. She had a 6 month female sitting on her shoulder that was the MOST calm glider Ive ever seen...eating a sunflower seed and letting anyone touch her and not even caring..she looked VERY healthy and adapted/bonded to PEOPLE in general. Since I have lost 2 sets of twins at 8-9 days OOP, I plan to pull my next offspring right away. I know this post will get a bunch of negative feedback about not being with the parents and against the flow, but she is successful. When a joey first opens the eyes and sees a human, and no mom and dad, then the human is now the parent/mom. I dont think the feeding schedule is good at all...I would plan on feeding about every 3-4 hrs when possible...Let the bashing begin!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/multi.gif" alt="" />

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#61679 - 10/09/05 09:06 AM Re: How about this idea for joeys [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wow. Ok, I am not going to bash, but I am going to say this: Granted, I am not a "scientist" but even breast-feeding human babies helps to build up the immune system... now, I fully realize that all women do not breastfeed and still have very healthy babies, but I'd not recommend pulling a joey so soon. WHO keeps the joey(s) warm? WHO soothes the joey when it cries? I'd have to say the mother and father (who work TOGETHER) to raise the joeys are the best options for the long term survival and minimal stress to the gliders.

I have to say, though I am NOT a licensed breeder, that selling joeys this young - at a flea market no less - is IRRESPONSIBLE. How many of THESE joeys actually FIND a loving, knowledgable "surrogate mommy or daddy" where impulse buying is the norm at a flea market? I'd have to say, that most - if not all - of the potential buyers would not be prepared for the daily needs of caring for a glider so young. Even an adult glider, for that matter. I'd carefully reconsider your position - for the well-being of YOUR own gliders (and I do not mean that in a nasty way).


Edited by CGARNES (10/09/05 09:07 AM)

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#61680 - 10/09/05 09:14 AM Re: How about this idea for joeys [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have a few thoughts on this... interesting this came up a few days after I had a discussion on hand raised joeys with my boyfriend. After almost 3 years of breeding I have finally had to hand raise my first set... they are beautiful twin girls that were injured severly in the eye by their mother... one will never be able to see out of their one eye unless they undergo surgery..... they are the sweetest things ever with humans now because they are being raised completely by humans and have a bond and trust with us.

In some odd way, I can see why someone would want to do this at the first glance of seeing how sweet a hand raised joey can be. However, there is so much more that has to be taken into consideration than a joey's temperament.

When a joey is FIRST born... up to 3 weeks oop they need to be fed every TWO hours.. not every 3 or 4. This means if it takes you 40 minutes to get 1cc into them... and it was noon when you started.. you have to do it all over again at 2.. not at 2:40...

This can be very tiring and stressful on you.... unless you have done this you have no clue. Believe me, I never thought I would be this tired and I only have two little girls to take care of on top of taking care of the other gliders that I have. I couldn't imagine having to hand feed all 6 joeys I have oop right now... where would time be for anything else?

Also, mommy's milk does have things you cannot provide to them. Animals not raised by their parents and fed milk by their mother have a risk of health problems when they get older.... the tameness cannot take away the fact that they might have health problems later.

Also, parents teach the joeys so much that is hard to be taught by humans. My twin girls are now 4 weeks oop and are just now trying to learn to crawl on cages. They haven't even attempted to jump yet, as most of mine have by this age... and the wheel and most toys scare them. It will take them a long time to do these things, not to mention learn how to glide.

I agree wtih you that hand raised joeys are very sweet. No matter how much I interact with joeys left with their parents, it will be a rare occasion that they are as sweet and calm as hand raised joeys, but I would never pull them from their parents just for that purpose. If calm joeys is all you care about, you should probably reconsider breeding.

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#61681 - 10/09/05 09:55 AM Re: How about this idea for joeys [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


dont forget that you will have to help them poop every timr they eat. A better idea would to supplement the joey 3-4 times a day and let them stay with momma and daddy. That way mom is still feeding, the joey is getting alll the nurtirients, learning and growing properly.

Like Tonia said it sounds so easy to do but until you have tried it. What happens if the joey still dies because you are not feeding right or you get bml in the babies nose (so easy to do with a wiggly little baby. How would you feel knowing that you were the one that killed that baby?

I would give the parents one more shot. Up the moms protien more. give a pinky every week while joey is ip then continue doing that while joey is oop. And if she still rejects the joey I would take them out of my breeding program. When I see breeders who pull their joeys (when there is no reason to), you can only see one thing in their eyes.... its not love and compasion... it is $$$$$

Please do TONZ of research before you decide to do this. You may get a sweeter, calmer joey, but you may also get a glider that only lives one or two years due to an illness that he would of been able to fight if he had mommas milk from the begining.

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#61682 - 10/09/05 01:45 PM Re: How about this idea for joeys [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Personaly I feel that there was a misunderstanding as to what was said by the breeder.

Her pulling method... shortly after coming oop. more than likely is around the the four to five week oop. ages. This would be when the babies could possibly be fed three times a day. I say this as I know the mega breeders pull their tiny babies at this age. And actually they do not go by age but rather the weight/size of the baby.

As to babies being more tame from being pulled early... well that is not so. I have hand raised quite a few babies and although they were bonded to me... they did have to go through the bonding process with their new owner. They know the difference between people... not by what they see but rather by odor.

My suggestion with your pair of gliders is to have the male neutered and enjoy them as pet only. If they are not tame or bonded to you... suggest you check out the bonding Forum and proceed from there with your adult gliders. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#61683 - 10/09/05 01:55 PM Re: How about this idea for joeys [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm sorry, but what that breed told you, just isn't true. No just OOP joey could survive off of 3 feeding a day. I have had to hand feed 1 joey and suppliment 4 others. The joeys I supplimented, I fed every 4-6 hours, but the joey I hand fed, I fed every 2 hours. Even being fed every 2 hours, he was very slow to grow and didn't reach the right size for his age until he was almost 6 months out of pouch.

Also, it doesn't make them any better of pets. All of my gliders have been parent raised and I have a wonderful bond with each and every one of them. People are always amazed by how much my gliders will tolerate. I've taken them to schools for educational seminars and they have had to put up with a dozen little kids squeeling, poking, and petting them and they don't mind in the least.

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#61684 - 10/09/05 03:07 PM Re: How about this idea for joeys [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I hate to be negative, but there is no possible way that a a joey without its eyes open would be able to survive eating only 3 times a day. Chance and Hope were 6 days OOP when I got them and they ate every 45 minutes up until they were 2 weeks OOP and then it went to every 1 hour and 30 min. At 4 weeks OOP, they eat every 3 hours. Yes, you will have to help them defecate after each feeding so that they make room for the next feeding.

Personally, if you have never done this before, I would suggest leaving 15-20 min of every hour free and imagine you feeding 2 joeys. Wake up every hour of the night and imagine doing this for at least 3 weeks and still wake up every few hours to feed even after the 6 week mark... I guaruntee you will lost more than half the sleep you usually get, get sick, and get very agitated at the world. If you pull them, you must realize you have to take them everywhere with you, school, work, grocery store, friend's houses, etc in case they get hungry early and they need to eat.

The cost is not the issue here although it will cost you to set up an incubator, get the correct formula or diet etc. The issue is whether you will have time for them and if you are truly doing the right thing.

I 100% feel that if a joey can be left with their momma, they should be. There is no reason that these babeis will not become bonded to you as long as you have the time to work with with them. Now, if you are afraid the momma will reject the babies, this is a different situation and the joeys should still be left and monitored until that point has been reached.

Sorry to be negative, but I personally would not take advice from someone selling a joey that obviously should be with their parents till at least 8 weeks OOP at a Flea Market. Next time, maybe ask to see their USDA license #, look it up and see if it is legit. That's what I would do otherwise please do LOTS Of research on this as it is not as easy as you are thinking it is going to be.

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#61685 - 10/09/05 03:09 PM Re: How about this idea for joeys [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have to agree with most everything said here - this is just a bad idea taken from an irresponsible source.

Joeys that are pulled too young can have catastrophic health issues later in life. On top of that the survival rate of a joey that stays with Mom & Dad is so much higher than one that is pulled.

I'm currently supplementing 2 joeys as Monster couldn't produce enough milk for them. I know now that it was because she became pregnant again almost immediately after the joeys were OOP. I first started supplimenting before the joeys were 2 weeks old, they will be 5 weeks OOP on Tuesday. I have never been more sleep deprived, I have actually been sick twice since I've been supplementing because my own immune system could not hold up.

Nothing you are speaking of makes sense to me. What would make sense would be to trouble-shoot why your previous joeys died - there is a reason. Did Mama run out of milk, were they rejected, were they warm enough, should you have supplemented? What happened that you can control next time? I guarantee that depriving them of much needed colostrum & antibodies that Mom provides will not be a helping factor. Calm joeys should be the least of your concerns when your joeys aren't even surviving yet. Let's take baby steps & decide if your gliders are even suitable parents first - some gliders just aren't meant to be parents.

BTW - just because this breeder is USDA licenced does not mean that they know anything or are doing right by the gliders.

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#61686 - 10/09/05 04:23 PM Re: How about this idea for joeys [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Good points Gina. I would def. try to figure out why your joeys are not surviving and then work from there.

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#61687 - 10/09/05 04:28 PM OWWW....I feel some bashing!!!! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I am in agreement with what you are telling me. I am just telling you what me AND my wife heard this woman say... I also feel that I lost my 2 sets of twins because I was told by ANOTHER breeder to NOT touch the babies until the eyes are open...kinda hard to supplement that way...I think our problem is mom is just too small to handle twins...not sure about a single birth. What I want to do is supplement starting just a day or so oop on the next one(s)....does that sound more logical. Its NOT about bonding...its about survival...both my adults are totally bonded to me so thats no problem...thanks for the..... OWWWWW....comments

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#61688 - 10/09/05 04:37 PM Re: OWWW....I feel some bashing!!!! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


If the breeder told you not to touch the babies until they opened their eyes, how did you expect to hold them a few days oop? Just curious... But wanted to let you know that your breeder was false. The time they open their eyes will be around 2 weeks give or take depending on the glider. I have been holding mine since they were 6 days OOP which is also when I started hand raising them.

I am glad to hear that you are not doing it to bond and rather for survival, but if you think your momma is too small to hand twins or even babies in general, then maybe you should think about neutering your male b/c it might get awfully stressful on her and she might get sick from it.

I'm glad that most of what you wrote prior to this post was misunderstanding. I would still read about joey growth and dev. and how to hand feed a joey on this forum. They are the sticky notes on the top of this forum. Also, www.suzsugargliders.com has a section on how to hand feed a baby in the case that they need it.

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#61689 - 10/09/05 06:56 PM Re: OWWW....I feel some bashing!!!! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Not to jump on the bandwagon here but I agree with everything posted. Although if she were really USDA licensed I'd be asking which USDA licensed her because she doesn't appear to be anything more than one of the mass producing glider breeders in search for the almighty dollar. If she pulls her joeys young and it works for her then hey that's her deal and although I don't believe that's true but if it indeed is and it works for her well not much you can do. Just because she is successful at it doesn't guarentee that you will also be as successful at it. I could tell you and anyone who would listen I can fly and that won't make it true either. I am not trying to bash you at all but just because she told you and your wife what she does and how successful it is for her doesn't mean it will work for you. Yes you've lost two sets of joeys and as tragic as it may be trouble shoot why and then work your way from there. I am not a breeder and I have not had a whole lot of experience with joeys at all. I touched my gliders joeys for a few minutes the day came out of pouch and they're currently 2 wks out of pouch so I don't think my touching their joeys was over traumatic or a signed death warrant for either joey.

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#61690 - 10/09/05 08:27 PM one more chance for momma [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


before I get her husband snipped....I will definitely get involved with the supplemental feedings, probably from day 2. I have a challenge now and dont want to lose. It was terrible to know that her 2 sets died of starvation when I could have helped IF I could touch them...Ill be ready next time....Im gonna get me some joeys that make it!! Thanks for the advice..

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#61691 - 10/09/05 09:06 PM Re: one more chance for momma [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


If you want to have some supplies to supplement feed your joeys, I sell 1 cc. syringes and #5 french cathiters on my site. I'm sorry to hear that your breeder told you not to touch them... That was some misinformation that you could have gone without. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

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#61692 - 10/09/05 09:38 PM Re: OWWW....I feel some bashing!!!! [Re: ]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I think our problem is mom is just too small to handle twins...not sure about a single birth.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
[:"green"] Larry, how big is the mother? I have a female that is only 98 grams and she is my best breeder. She consistently has 3 litters a year & except for her hiatus that she, herself, takes, she gets more joeys in pouch once the previous joeys are about 2 - 3 weeks out of pouch. She always looks too tiny to be able to handle these joeys, but she does great with them. She even adopted a rejected joey, although I hand-fed it, she took care of it to the point of tucking it inside her pouch with her own two joeys who were not due out of pouch for another two weeks. Generally speaking, size is not the issue.
Now, I do think there are other issues you should probably address first to see if they might be the culprit. I'm not trying to be offensive here. Please don't get me wrong. I am trying to help you find a way to breed a successful pair of joeys. If I remember correctly, your gliders were in a quart-size jar with a sweatshirt sleeve as their nesting box/pouch. I would strongly recommend that you switch to regular pouches and eliminate the jar. This is for a number of reasons. 1) The jar would not allow for any air circulation whatsoever. 2) The jar would not allow the "pouch" to dry out after the gliders urinate, which would allow a lot of bacteria to grow. 3) The jar would be a rather cramped space. The pouch itself would be better if it were regular polar-fleece. The sweatshirt sleeve is okay except for one factor: the cuff of any sweatshirt sleeve is a "loose" weave that the gliders' nails could easily get caught in.
Now, having said all of that...
I wish you success in breeding in the future. It can be a very rewarding experience.
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#61693 - 10/09/05 11:50 PM Re: OWWW....I feel some bashing!!!! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Going off of what Suz said, that reminds me... I forgot to ask, what diet are you using for your gliders? Your momma may be tiny, but if she does not have an ample supply of protein in her diet while she is preggers, then she may not be able to supply the needed milk for her joeys. This causing stress may be a reason she rejects them.

If she is too young to be a mother, that may be another reason.

Hope some of this information helps. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#61694 - 10/10/05 03:33 AM Re: OWWW....I feel some bashing!!!! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have a 68 gram female that is a joey machine. She's expecting her second set of joeys OOP with me and she produced several sets (always 2) before she came to me. Generally, if your glider is on a good diet, size really doesn't matter. Now, some gliders just aren't ment to be mommy's/daddy's. I suggest checking out the diet forums and finding a diet that works for you. I personally feed an ensure based diet and it works really well for me...

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#61695 - 10/12/05 12:37 PM Re: OWWW....I feel some bashing!!!! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Larry, just keep in mind that if one breeder can be wrong then another can be just as easily. I can understand your complete frustration and absolute sadness about your babies... it must be heartbreaking and make you feel desperate to keep the next babies alive.

I want to suggest getting some new cage supplies, perhaps a chincilla house or sleeping pouch. If you havnt gotten rid of your jar the gliders were sleeping in please do right away. Make sure they have plenty of toys, 2 wheels so each can run as much as they want. Feed mealworms every night and make sure they are on a proven diet. Give your gliders a mentally and physically healthy enviroment and go from there.

You know now that you can handle the babies anytime after they are OOP, so you can keep a good eye on them and help mama take care of them. You can suppliment the babies, and bond with them, and still let them be gliders. IF mom rejects them again, you'll be ready this time!

I pray your next babies survive and give you that experience you are searching for.

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#61696 - 10/12/05 08:14 PM Re: OWWW....I feel some bashing!!!! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree, they need a pouch or a nest box to sleep in and they definately need a wheel to run around like they would in the wild. To make your own nestbox, you can use a plastic shoe box with a lid so you can peek in on the babies anytime you want. Just cut a hole in one end and leave a little lip on the bottom so the babies can't wander out. Also, add a few pieces of fleece in there to snuggle with, and make sure the edges of the hole you cut are smooth. If you'd rather have a pouch, you can make your own out of fleece with no sewing needed here:
http://www.suzsugargliders.com/nosewpouch.htm
You can find a wheel here:
http://www.sugar-gliders.com/wodent-wheel.htm
Hope that helps! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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