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#619370 - 08/23/08 09:25 AM Honey
BCChins Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 3089
Loc: Central Connecticut
Question is: At what temperature does honey need to be heated to to be considered safe for us to use in our diets? Raw honey is not heated or lightly heated and pasteurized for a store like Walmart to sell it is 145 degree's.

I have a local Bee Keeper here in CT and he said he heats his honey to 125 degrees. I know we are not suppose to use raw honey in our diets but is this temperature a safe one to feed them? I am tired of buying those $8 Walmart jugs and would love to buy a gallon or bigger if this is safe. I just want to be sure it is 100% suggie safe!!



Edited by BCChins (08/23/08 09:27 AM)
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#619374 - 08/23/08 09:41 AM Re: Honey [Re: BCChins]
Kiiru Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 2969
Loc: Syracuse, NY
Bwahaha. Here we go again. ^-^ This topic still confuses me...

Well, honey is never entirely "safe" which is why I don't get why store honey is safe. Since bacteria can't thrive or live in honey due to the high sugar content, you don't have to worry about bacteria. What you have to worry about is botulism spores. There is really no way to kill botulism spores. You have to heat the honey to a really high degree to destroy some of them but even then, you still have some spores in there. Most store bought honey is basically just that...heated raw honey that has also been pressed through a very small filter under extremly high pressure to sift the bee "glue" from the honey.

The first batch of HPW I made, I used raw honey that I heated except I can't remember how long or what temperature I heated it at. frown My kids were perfectly fine. I don't know if it was just pure luck or what but there were no signs of botulisim in them and generally, you can tell if a young child has botulisim in a couple hours to a couple weeks, I believe.

So, I don't know what to tell you. XD I'm buying my guys honey from Walmart now and I don't know if I'd want to go through heating up the raw honey again...yes, it's cheaper but it's also a royal pain in the [censored] to get it to that certain temperature and keep it at it for 5mins or more.
_________________________
-Nicole
2 doves,1 dog,and 5 gliders...
* Yin and Yang
* Razzle, Tictac, and Kitkat - "The trio"

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#619377 - 08/23/08 09:48 AM Re: Honey [Re: Kiiru]
PixTrix
Unregistered


I have bought some raw honey and searched online for "safe" pasteurization temperature. I have found it and heated up the raw honey to 160 degrees Fahrenheit for 10 minutes or more. That is what I did. I did not have any problems with the aftereffects of the diet fed to my gliders using this method.


Jen

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#619386 - 08/23/08 10:08 AM Re: Honey [Re: ]
blockamon Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 07/14/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Lynchburg, VA
Really, there is no way to pasteurize honey without destroying it. The heating process used in the industry is intended to keep it from recrystalizing on the shelf, not to kill bacteria. The industry is currently working on a fast pasteurization technique that can kill the bacteria and cool the product before the honey is damaged, but it probably won't be ready for a couple years.

Raw honey may be a no-no more because it is unfiltered. If you use a fine enough filter, it is possible to filter out bacteria (about 0.1 microns will do). The spores are still there, but they shouldn't be a problem unless the person (or sugar glider) has a weakened immune system.

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#619809 - 08/23/08 11:31 PM Re: Honey [Re: blockamon]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
One of the things I remember about Honey is... do not purchase honey with the honey cone in it.
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Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#620190 - 08/24/08 06:36 PM Re: Honey [Re: Judie]
joan248
Unregistered


Ok... So is the store bought Clover Honey ok to use?

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#620216 - 08/24/08 07:13 PM Re: Honey [Re: ]
TWilson
Unregistered


I have been doing a lot of research and here are my findings regarding honey.

The most common reason I hear why we do not use raw honey in feeding gliders is because it is thought to be a botulism concern.
Colstridium botulinum spores that cause botulism are everywhere in the environment. They’re in dust, dirt, and air. The spores are even found on unwashed surfaces or unpeeled fruits and veggies. Pasteurizing or filtering does not reliably remove these spores and they can survive many hours of continued boiling.
Normally swallowing these spores is not a problem. The spores remain spores and are passed out of the body by the gut flora.

Some researchers have identified honey as being a possible source of botulism spores. They discourage giving honey to infants under 1 year because in extremely rare cases the gut flora of some infants may not be able to combat these spores and MAY result in infant botulism. Yet others have not detected these spores in honey. Furthermore, infant botulism is an unavoidable disease; most patients probably inhale and swallow the spores.

Now some background on honey itself.
Honey is a supersaturated solution of sugars, mainly fructose, glucose and maltose-like sugars. These sugars make honey hygroscopic (moisture absorbing). Honeys hyperosmotic nature prevents the growth of bacteria and yeast as it draws water out of the organism, killing them by desiccation. (Drying it up)
Honey is naturally resistant to bacteria.
Honey is also low PH, along with the sugar concentration make honey an antimicrobial agent. The high acidity of honey plays an important role in the system which prevents bacterial growth. Honey is only around 18% water after bees cure it and with a PH average of 3.9, honey is very stable and can last forever if stored covered tightly.
If honey is left exposed to air, it will absorb water from the air. The greater concentration of water in the air will allow yeast to multiply and honey will ferment.

Raw Honey- raw honey is rich in minerals, vitamins, antioxidant compounds and beneficial enzymes that allow for proper calcium absorption, effective carbohydrate assimilation, probotics for friendly bacteria in the gastrointestinal tract. Phytonutrients in raw honey include healthy by products such as propolis, a gummy substance full of enzymes created by bees when they add their own proteins with tree sap and other plant resins. It also has enzyme and protein packed pollen.

Commercially processed honey is honey that is heated to high temperatures to sterilize or pasteurize it. This process is unnecessary as there are no microbes in honey. The only way microbes can get into honey is from contamination by human hands after it is extracted from the comb. Even then, these microbes will immediately be destroyed by the honeys osmotic powers. When honey is commercially processed, honey is cooked and filtered by high pressure pumps until it is devoid of most of its mineral, nutrients, enzymes, antioxidants and photonutrients. When heated over 118 degrees, honey has its health benefits greatly reduced or completely eliminated.
Honey is processed commercially because WE prefer the clarity and light color that comes from processing out all what we see as impurities, when actually it is the healthy ingredients.
Remember if there are any botulinum spores in the honey, they will still be there after commercial processing that is why the disclaimer remains on the label of the processed honey. (Do not feed to infants under 1 year)

From what I am finding, raw honey is extremely beneficial in many ways and commercially processed honey only removes the “good” qualities of honey and all that is left is sugar.
The risk of botulism from honey is inconclusive due to the fact it the clostridium botulinum spores are everywhere. The spores are only harmful to persons with a compromised immune system.

Most beekeepers do heat their honey but to a temperature of less than 120 degrees but only to liquefy more for ease of extraction. They also filter it but with filters that don’t remove the beneficial ingredients, only particles of wax or bee parts. Honey processed this way is considered raw and unaltered.

Honey is commercially processed because people prefer honey to be light and clear, more pleasing to the eye.

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#620227 - 08/24/08 07:25 PM Re: Honey [Re: ]
Celeste
Unregistered


Thank you for all of that information, some intresting things to consider. a lot of times foods are dyed or something is done to them so they they look more pleasing to our eyes.

So, would you personally give 'raw' honey to gliders? Taking all the nutrients out does seem to be redundant, in the procecced honey. And, where can you GET raw honey if so? I'm kind of intrested in trying it now.

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#620230 - 08/24/08 07:26 PM Re: Honey [Re: ]
Kiiru Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 2969
Loc: Syracuse, NY
Nicely put! That's what I was trying to say...that there's really no difference at all between raw and processed honey. ^-^ I forgot to mention that the spores are found everywhere though...I knew I forgot something after I posted it.
_________________________
-Nicole
2 doves,1 dog,and 5 gliders...
* Yin and Yang
* Razzle, Tictac, and Kitkat - "The trio"

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#620233 - 08/24/08 07:32 PM Re: Honey [Re: Kiiru]
Celeste
Unregistered


Isnt raw honey the honey with honeycomb in it? I thought we WERENT supposed to give that. Now im confused. Does anyone feed raw honey to gliders?

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#620236 - 08/24/08 07:36 PM Re: Honey [Re: ]
TWilson
Unregistered


Some people like honey with the comb in it, not all raw honey has the comb.
I would not feed honey with the comb because the comb is wax and wax IS harmful to gliders, could choke them.
After researching honey to my satisfaction, I will be feeding raw honey.

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#620238 - 08/24/08 07:37 PM Re: Honey [Re: ]
Kiiru Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 2969
Loc: Syracuse, NY
Raw honey and honeycomb are different things...honeycomb also has a piece of honeycomb in it.

I don't know of anyone that feeds raw honey since it has been spread throughout the glider community not to feed it. I have yet to see evidence of it being bad and causing problems though.
_________________________
-Nicole
2 doves,1 dog,and 5 gliders...
* Yin and Yang
* Razzle, Tictac, and Kitkat - "The trio"

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#620239 - 08/24/08 07:37 PM Re: Honey [Re: Kiiru]
BCChins Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 3089
Loc: Central Connecticut
Thank you everyone and Tammy that was well written and thank you for doing this research and sharing it with us.
I feel comfortable with purchasing some local honey instead of from the store. It sound so much more beneficial to feed local honey from a bee farmer.
_________________________
Have a Good Day
Brenda &
Mr. Magoo

Friendly Reminder please have an e-collar ready before you need it......

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#620241 - 08/24/08 07:40 PM Re: Honey [Re: BCChins]
Celeste
Unregistered


I agree, it does sound more beneficial. And, so if I took the honeycomb out, or just got it without it in it, it would be ok? If I run into some raw honey, I'll try it. Where do you buy it? (I know they sell it at the fair, but thats only once a year, so.)

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#620292 - 08/24/08 09:16 PM Re: Honey [Re: ]
blockamon Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 07/14/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Lynchburg, VA
I personally won't feed raw honey to my gliders. The extra risk might be minimal, but the extra benefits are probably minimal also. Raw honey and bee pollen retailers like to point out that the products have lots of enzymes the aid this or that. Unfortunately, our bodies are not able to absorb the enzymes but rather break them down into the basic components as part of digestion. Our bodies are perfectly able to produce all the enzymes and other things we need provided that we consume the proper basic nutrients. I seriously doubt that gliders are any different.


Edited by blockamon (08/24/08 09:18 PM)

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#620299 - 08/24/08 09:30 PM Re: Honey [Re: blockamon]
TWilson
Unregistered


From what I found, there are NO extra risks. Only thing that changes with commercially processed honey is a light and clear honey missing all of minerals and nutrients.

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