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#62564 - 10/13/05 12:46 AM Very ill with unknown cause
Anonymous
Unregistered


Haven't been here for years, since the old board, but in need of help. Bear with me.

Last Saturday morning one of my gliders was found on the bottom of the cage, next to the food dish. lethargic. She was fine before that morning. Immediated she was rushed to a local vet who has cared for a few gliders in the last few years. They neutered my male 3 years ago. They took some blood to do some tests but couldn't do much as she was dehydrated. What they could get was her blood sugar which was normal and her calcium level which was normal. Then some test that saw how dehydrated she was. They injected her with some sub-q fluids and that was all they could do at the moment. Listening to her breathing, they believed she may have an injection - prescribed Baytril. They suggested I take her home and keep trying to get her to drink water or juice. I go ahead and give her apple juice by eyedropper which didn't go so well that day. During the day she urinates twice and defecates once - from my memory. Its very little but looks normalish - very dark brown. She was still grabbing on to things around her while sleeping. Eyes remained dazed any time she would open them a little.

Sunday rolls around and she starts accepting very little apple juice and (baby) mixed juice with yogurt. She appeared the same as the previous day. I took her in to the vet to have her checked out again. There wasn't much they could do at this point of time since she still seemed dehydrated and there wasn't much of anything else to work with. Did the question game so they could monitor her progress. Once again, sub-q injection. the day was long but more of the same stuff. Waste was twice, both times urine and feces - slightly softer but a little more brown than dark brown/black. Her behavior remained the same as Saturday. She didn't drink much throughout the day. Her eyes were pretty much closed all day.

Monday comes, she drank a bit more and if I remember right, I mixed some chicken baby food in there with her eating. This is still all very little and it takes me forcing it into her mouth with the eyedropper. Jaw and tongue was moving. Since she was eating a few more solid things instead of fluids, we go ahead and give her another injection. Her breathing sounded better and more relaxed. The day again went about the same, but she also drank in the evening. Waste was the same as Sunday. Still dazed. Her eyes opened a little more.

Tuesday morning, the vet's amazed at her progress with eating and how much she drank before the visit. We skipped the injection with expectations that she'd begin recovering on her own. Her eyes are again open about halfway unlike Sunday. Her eyes began to move back and forth a little. They requested trying another blood sample but with how she looked (still lazy and losing weight), I figured she needs all the fluids to stay inside as she can get/keep. She had that "vibration" gliders have with their bodies when normal (if you understand what I'm talking about...maybe its just her) - sorta like when they purr. She seemed to be improving quite a bit. The vet gave me some type of paste thats supposed to be full of calories. The day comes and she wouldn't drink/eat pretty much anything. No tongue/jaw movement. Waste remained unchanged and her eyes closed more and more. She seemed to be reverting back to Sunday.

Wednesday (today) comes and she's at her worst. Its like Sunday all over again but this time it seems more food is leaving her mouth when I give it to her, than what is going down her throat. Her tongue and jaw move a bit but not with the same amount of energy. I've been giving her honey/apple juice mixed (calories), the juice with yogurt, and tried some gatorade which she seemed to like but got too exhausted of eating. Back at the vet, they don't know why she's declined so quickly after leaving yesterday. They'd like to do a more complete bloodtest but with her being so dehydrated, its impossible. I was taught to do the injection myself which will be administered twice a day at 2mL each. Her waste remained about the same. Eyes remained closed all morning and rarely open in the afternoon/evening. She seems very weak now and I can't find a good way to get her enough calories. The paste she won't even move her jaw for. She's still losing weight. She's always been small compared to other gliders (both male and female) and is down to around 40 grams now. She was at 44.5 on Saturday. The whole time she's eaten nearly all of her medication when given twice a day (mainly due to being strawberry flavored)



I'm sure the above isn't the easiest to read but I believe its just about all there.

My other glider has been fine all week and is active at night. Same cage, food, etc. They've had their shares of the bml diet and seemed to be doing well up until this point. Nothing in the room has changed, they haven't gotten to any weird materials, etc. Everything's been the same but this is out of nowhere. The only changes are minor such as buying new fruits/vegs when running out. All this time her excrements, although less, all remained normal and continues that way. Other than lacking energy she seems fine. Up until today, she's still had a lot of strength in all 4 limbs and tail. Earlier I tried to grab her instincts with a mealworm but it was a no go. I've look over and over all the known problems and causes with gliders but none of them fit completely. Corn and peas (the biggest phosphorus contenders) have remained out of their diet for the most part. Crickets (never really fed mealworms since they're so fattening) I stopped giving with the aflatoxin scare and have been replaced with other (non-bug) protein sources. This problem fits with aflatoxicosis but her feces are pretty normal and they haven't seen a cricket in forever. If this isn't just a a problem with her body, the other glider may be fine since he weighs probably three times as much - it'd take a bit more to bring him down.

Anyways, what I'm getting at is if anyone has any ideas before she wastes away. She's my first glider who I've had for over 4 years (she's 5 now) and this is one of the hardest things I've had to deal with - the possibility of losing her. My other glider is 4 years old - as a reference. It seems my only chance from what I/we know is to get her hydrated enough to get a good blood sample to test from. ALso somehow getting calories into her but anything more than juice she doesn't seem to do so well with (such as honey). Seems not to be diet related though and her organs appear to be functioning fine.

I'm sure I've left out things but its to be expected with how much I've been enduring the last 5 days. Whatever I've left out, just ask. I need to look for any possible solution at this point since my vet, friends who have had many gliders for 10 or so years, and I are at a loss as to what the problem is.

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#62565 - 10/13/05 12:56 AM Re: Very ill with unknown cause [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
I would take her back to the vet and ask for sub-Q injections with B12or B complex mixed in with caluim iived in. she seems like she is fihgting off something. DOnt' kown what. But I would try and get some B complex and Vit E into her by sub-Q.

IF she get hydrated enought they can draw blood and do a fecal on her. Please keep us posted.
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#62566 - 10/13/05 08:22 AM Re: Very ill with unknown cause [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


will do. She's blinking this morning and grabbing onto things a bit more again. The biggest problem I see right now (other than her being ill) is her not getting many calories in her diet so she's burning off what she has left stored in her body which was never much in the first place. I guess there is an upside to having a glider who is a little chubby

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#62567 - 10/13/05 10:09 AM Re: Very ill with unknown cause [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


waiting for the doctor to get out of surgery before I can verify he can do this/knows what you're talking about. I'm a bit confused over the sub-q with vitamins mixed in and what is it? First you say B12 or B complex, then vitamin E two sentences later


edit:
good news. She just went through 0.5mL of juice w/yogurt without it being forced into her mouth. Her tongue's coming out to get it. She just needs to get some calories and stay hydrated and this week long horror may finally come to a good end

edit:
got maybe 0.7-0.8 in total that way. She started to fall asleep while eating


Edited by seek (10/13/05 10:44 AM)

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#62568 - 10/13/05 10:16 AM Re: Very ill with unknown cause [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I don't have experience with ill gliders, and have only had my gliders for about 6 months. But, when one of our animals is on the downside we give plain unflavored pedialyte since it has alot of electrolytes and is easier for the body to process. I don't know if gliders can have pedialyte, but it is known for helping in hydration.

Would maybe KMR help? Trying to think of things that are easy for the body to absorb with little energy output but maximum good stuff in it. I have both KMR and Esbelac<sp> on hand since I have had to nurse kittens, rabbits and guinea pigs.

Can gliders have strokes? I know hamsters can have stokes and get that dazed lethargic response.

My thoughts and prayers are with you and I hope your little one pulls through.

April

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#62569 - 10/13/05 11:18 AM Re: Very ill with unknown cause [Re: ]
the gliders angel Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 3058
Loc: u.s.a.
many glider rehabs use vanilla ensure get some of theis it has alot of good in it and pedialyte in the baby food section have the vet run a urine culture and sensitivity and direct fecal float that will tell u what bacteria she has. which it sounds like. also, bacterias leach out calcium from their body ask your vet about a liquid calcium supplement till she gets well. like neocalglucon

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#62570 - 10/13/05 12:00 PM Re: Very ill with unknown cause [Re: ]
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 7356
Loc: Austin, TX
Gliders can have pedialyte, and you would get either B-12 or B complex and E in the IV. They can get aflotoxins from nuts as well. You said 40 grams? That is tiny for a glider that is 4 years old. Even the 44 grams is quite small. When she is well, I would keep her on a diet that is going to put more weight on her, she needs to weigh twice that, at least. Ensure would be great for her calorie wise. You can get high protien or high calcium, just don't get the chocolate flavored kind. I hope some of this helps you. Keep us updated on her progress, please! So many don't let us know how they turn out.
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#62571 - 10/13/05 12:24 PM Re: Very ill with unknown cause [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


If you give her boost or ensure hight protein it has all the vitamin and calcum in it she needs(wal-mart sale it).Not choclate its not good for them at all.

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#62572 - 10/13/05 02:01 PM Re: Very ill with unknown cause [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Got back from the vet. She was hydrated well enough to get half a mL of blood from and they're sending it to their outside lab to do more extensive testing on than what they can do on site. I mentioned the fecal and he took what she had on her fleece. Two small stools were back to the normal color and texture. Another was sort of a chunk stuck to the fleece that he pulled off. I forgot to ask about it before leaving but will get the full scoop when the blood tests get back (tonight or tomorrow morning). He wanted to wait on the calcium suppliment until the tests come back since her calcium level was good on the initial Saturday test. I asked about what the vitamins do (mainly the differences between b and e) and I'm still unsure. They stuck B in the sub-q pouch which is now in a dark place.

I know she's small and has been that way ever since I got her. No matter how much she eatsm she has always stayed relatively small compared to other females I've seen (in person of course). The only way I seem to have a chance of fattening her up is with mealworms or unhealthy foods. She would go through half a cup of mixed foods like its nothing.

She hasn't had a single nut in probably well over a year and when she did get them, they were just plain, unsalted, peanuts.

Her weight has stopped dropping and is currently at 40.8 grams. She's still licking the food herself from the syringe

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#62573 - 10/13/05 02:27 PM Re: Very ill with unknown cause [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Here she is in no specific date order. Last picture, she's the bottom. She's a bit thinner this moment but she has always been pretty bony. It was never very visible from the outside but from feeling her, its always been fur and bones with a little muscle thrown in there. (and no I wasn't that close in picture 1, just zoomed in 6x)

Pic1
Pic2
Pic3
Pic4

Edit:
as requested, linked to instead of automatically loading


Edited by seek (10/13/05 05:32 PM)

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#62574 - 10/13/05 02:53 PM Re: Very ill with unknown cause [Re: ]
Slickable3 Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 05/23/05
Posts: 2262
Loc: Cortlandt Manor, NY
Awwwwe what a little cutie! She is absolutely adorable. I hope everything works out with the results...please keep us posted.
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#62575 - 10/13/05 03:11 PM Re: Very ill with unknown cause [Re: ]
angelic4296 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3264
Loc: Northeast U.S.
Please keep us posted, I'd really love to know how things turned out, I'm thinking about her!!
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2 spoiled gliders, Gizzy (6/05) and Ruthie (?/05) <3

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#62576 - 10/13/05 03:48 PM Re: Very ill with unknown cause [Re: ]
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 7356
Loc: Austin, TX
She must just be a petite one! Her head is a lot smaller than the other one's in that last pic. She is a pretty girl! I hope they have some answers for you, and soon!
As far as the meal worms go, I give mine 4 or 5 a day. I have a couple of girls that stay around 75 grams no matter what. The mealies won't really hurt her unless you let them have all they want (which is usually all of them)! LOL.
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Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.


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#62577 - 10/13/05 05:16 PM Re: Very ill with unknown cause [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
Check out her clocoa area and see if it is yellow colored.
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#62578 - 10/13/05 05:27 PM Re: Very ill with unknown cause [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


the area? Her fur has become slightly yellow in different spots all over due to things like food getting on it and urine. What about it?

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#62579 - 10/13/05 06:05 PM Re: Very ill with unknown cause [Re: ]
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 7356
Loc: Austin, TX
What will the yellow tell? Just curious, I've not seen it, other than scent staining.
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Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.


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#62580 - 10/13/05 06:24 PM Re: Very ill with unknown cause [Re: ]
sugeebaby Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 2113
Loc: Michigan
To get weight back on Sammy after his long unknown illness the vet suggested live crickets. Seeif you can get her to eat some of those. It is helping Sammy.
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#62581 - 10/13/05 07:06 PM Re: Very ill with unknown cause [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


she used to have those all the time (in fact, one of the pictures shows her chowing on some) but I stopped when the aflatoxin scare first surfaced

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#62582 - 10/13/05 07:45 PM Re: Very ill with unknown cause [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


guess she's a bit full. Tried chicken baby food again and after eating a drop or two, she tried to get up to go hide from the food being forced onto her face. Stood up, turned around, and fell over. Not hungry but seems to know whats going on around her now. Finally tried standing on 4 legs


Edited by seek (10/13/05 07:45 PM)

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#62583 - 10/13/05 09:28 PM Re: Very ill with unknown cause [Re: ]
the gliders angel Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 3058
Loc: u.s.a.
my advise is to get the vanilla ensure at the store and give her all she wants thats for weight gain and has everything in it as far as vitamins.

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#62584 - 10/13/05 09:51 PM Re: Very ill with unknown cause [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


you mean the following product listed on Safeway's site?

"Ensure High Protein Liquid Nutrition Vanilla Health Beverage In Bottles - 6-8 Fl. Oz."

Closest store so I figured I'd look it up there.

About her current health. She just had more to drink. Doesn't seem to like the chicken baby food or honey at this point. Its too thick to swallow and breathe at the same time. She's getting active when feeding her like she's about to pee (to get away from it), but I haven't seen any waste come out all day - just what was on the fleece this morning. Rubbing her belly hasn't seemed to help relieve anything she may have stored up. She still looks around a little everytime I bug her. Still favors the berry-flavored medication and fruit juice with yogurt. Drank a bit more gatorade but was too active to keep going. I'm unsure if she's trying to move because she's full or because she feels like she's peeing. Back legs seem strong but front appear weak. She took a split grape earlier but just grabbed onto it with her front paws and fell asleep. I'm trying to get her to "eat" as much as possible before her injection

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#62585 - 10/13/05 10:02 PM Re: Very ill with unknown cause [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
I really believe that she needs some calcium. If it's in sug-Q or liquid. Gliders DO NOT hold on to thier calcium very well. Need to get back to the vet and get some calcium for her. I really believe this... The Vit b's will help alot and so will adding the E Vit. BUt it sounds like she really needs some calcium ASAP
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#62586 - 10/13/05 10:16 PM Re: Very ill with unknown cause [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


They won't perscribe any until the lab tests come back in the morning. Should I stick with yogurt or something else for the night? Trying to fill her up before any subcutaneous fluids but she just keeps drinking more and more. Also keeps trying to grab onto my hand anytime its near her, instead of the fleece. She seems to want to get up but can't yet


Edited by seek (10/13/05 10:17 PM)

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#62587 - 10/13/05 10:35 PM Re: Very ill with unknown cause [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
SHE NEED CALCIUM> I am telling you and do not care what the vet says. SOrry. I am usually not this strong in my beliefs.

I have seen it soooooooooooooo many times.
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#62588 - 10/13/05 10:36 PM Re: Very ill with unknown cause [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


actually, any of you who have helped so far (or have similar knowledge) care to message me IM account contact details? I figure the quicker I can get help about anything, the better (or having more than one source with certain information). I'm setup using gaim to access pretty much any IM service so the type isn't a problem. There's just odd questions I'm asking that 1) I should search for before asking in this thread and 2) should be answered pretty quickly under the current circumstances. Thanks for any help

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#62589 - 10/14/05 12:30 PM Re: Very ill with unknown cause [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


blood results are back.

CBC:
WBC------------- 8.0 ---------- 10/L
Estimate based on blood smear review

HCT------------- 44 ----------- %
1+ Polychromasia
Manual Differential Performed on blodo smear

Differential-----Absolute---- %
Neutrophilis-----5920-------74%-----/L
Lymphocytes----2000-------25------/L
Monocytes-------80---------1-------/L
Eosinophylis------0----------0-------/L

Platelet Estimate-----Increased
Platelets appear slightly increased on blood smear

Comp. Mammalian Chemistries:
SGOT (AST)-------------42------IU/L
SGPT (ALT)--------------77------IU/L
Total bilirubin------------0.1-----mg/dL
Alkaline Phosphatase-----146-----IU/L
Total Protein-------------7.1-----g/dL
Albumin------------------3.5-----g/dL
Cholesterol---------------199-----mg/dL
BUN----------------------18------mg/dL
Creatinine----------------0.1-----mg/dL
Phosphorus---------------7.0-----mg/dL
Calcium------------------9.5-----mg/dL
Glucose------------------115-----mg/dL
Sodium-------------------153-----mEq/L
Potassium----------------2.8-----mEq/L
Chloride------------------111-----mEq/L
CPK----------------------1614----IU/L
Globulin-------------------3.6-----g/dL

What I can find on the reference ranges:
(taken from 6 ISIS member institutions) :
Test------------------- Mean ----- Min-Max
SGOT (AST)-------------70------19-275
SGPT (ALT)--------------67------28-187
Total bilirubin------------0.3-----0.1-0.6
Alkaline Phosphatase-----231-----148-432
Total Protein-------------6.0-----4.8-7.1
Albumin------------------3.8-----3.2-4.8
Cholesterol---------------159-----99-246
BUN----------------------19------10-51
Creatinine----------------0.7-----0.3-1.2
Phosphorus---------------6.7-----5.0-10.2
Calcium------------------7.4-----1.3-9.6
Glucose------------------135-----20-352
Sodium-------------------142-----137-147
Potassium----------------3.3-----2.7-4.4
Chloride------------------105-----100-107
CPK----------------------639----224-1463
Globulin-------------------2.3-----1.5-3.4

For those that don't know, the above reference numbers aren't solid. They're just numbers sent in by institutions who have done bloodwork on different sugargliders. The min and max are the lowest and highest values sent. The mean is the average numbers for each test from each glider.

He told me the high CPK is due to her body breaking down muscle tissue in place of normal calories. Everything else is around the normal ranges for her current condition.

How she is...after not relieving herself almost all day yesterday, she did early this morning. Then she pooped again...and again. All are pretty small but look like a healthy glider's in color, shape, etc. She took her Baytril willingly , then got maybe 0.4-0.5mL of chicken baby food down before she started having problems with it so she was switched over to the juice with yogurt. I didn't fill her up completely so she'd be willing to take a calcium supplement but when going to get it, the majority of the blood tests came back and the calcium level is on the high side of "normal"

He's still unsure, from what we know, what is completely wrong with her. I just remembered I forgot to mention the fecal testing AGAIN so I'll call to see what happened with that. He perscribed a couple additional meds to widen the spectrum of what may be cured through oral medication. 0.07cc/mL Metronidazole Suspension once a day and 0.02cc/mL SMA Trimethoprin Sulfa twice a day.

She appears no worse than yesterday, but keeps insisting on climbing higher on whatever she's currently sitting on. Seems a little shaky with her front legs now that she has energy to move a bit more. She seems to be able to move her front legs further than yesterday, for what its worth. Her eyes were a little wider initially in the morning but seemed to revert back to how open they were yesterday - still moving them around though and blinking when something gets near them.

She weighed in at 42.0g after relieving herself an hour prior so it seems now that she's keeping in what she needs to.

Waiting for a call on the remaining blood tests

edit:
you know...its really hard to make the blood test results easy to read on here


Edited by seek (10/15/05 12:00 PM)

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#62590 - 10/14/05 02:01 PM Re: Very ill with unknown cause [Re: ]
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 7356
Loc: Austin, TX
Her bilirubin is very low, that is a liver problem. I would look closer at that. I was going to ask about the CPK. I am not sure, diet wise, what would help improve liver function, but there are a couple of people on here that are really, really smart in that area, hopefully they will come and look. Her weight being the same, roughly, is a good sign. The alkaline phosphates look low. The protien is high, probably because she is burning muscle tissue. You may need to grind some mealies up and put it in the baby food mixture you are giving her, to up her protien intake, and her caloric intake.
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Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.


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#62591 - 10/14/05 02:13 PM Re: Very ill with unknown cause [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


as far as I can tell, those should be a side effect of her dehydration last weekend/beginning of this week (decreased organ efficiency). Kidney-related tests also appear low. The vet brought it up also but he isn't sure until the rest of the results return

then again, I'm no expert either.

She seems to be willing to eat at almost any time of the day now (starting yesterday before the vitamins were injected into the fluids) and its hard to keep up. She's eating like she should with the amounts, just slower and with a bit of eyedropper help

She's also getting pretty restless of laying there. Keeps stretching out and moving her legs to grab onto different things for no apparent reason other than trying to get up


Edited by seek (10/14/05 02:24 PM)

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#62592 - 10/14/05 02:34 PM Re: Very ill with unknown cause [Re: ]
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 7356
Loc: Austin, TX
It sounds like she is improving a bit. I hope when they call you back that they have some more answers. Give her a snuggle for me!
_________________________
Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.


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#62593 - 10/14/05 02:35 PM Re: Very ill with unknown cause [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


She's fighting whatever this is, bless her. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> My heart and prayers go out to you both that she have a speedy recovery. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

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