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#629186 - 09/05/08 08:10 PM Why is Leu x Leu bad?
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
I was just curious, why is it bad to breed a leucistic to a non-related leucistic? Wouldn't it essentially be the same as breeding a 66% het to a 66% het, especially if they are both from all 100% het parents? I see that pairing all the time, and it's even considered breeding out. I mean, I understand that it's really just a way to fast-track your leucistic production, which is usually money related, but I don't see how it's genetically unsound.

Thanks for clearing this up for me smile
_________________________
Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

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#629202 - 09/05/08 08:25 PM Re: Why is Leu x Leu bad? [Re: kitsune]
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
Leu to leu is bad because the leu lines aren't bred out enough yet to be pairing 2 leus.

BTW, breeding out is only when you breed a leu/leu het to a glider with NO leu gene.
_________________________
~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin

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#629216 - 09/05/08 08:37 PM Re: Why is Leu x Leu bad? [Re: Guerita135]
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
Well, right, I understand how important it is to breed out and keep the lines separate. Believe me, if ever there was someone that truly hates inbreeding, it was me. I have some sweet babies that were inbred HARD and will never be normal. I am just pointing out, that I see people breeding 66% hets together all the time, and there doesn't seem to be a big issue. Whenever someone mentions breeding two leus together, everyone freaks out. There isn't a difference between the two, though. There doesn't even seem to be an issue breeding two 100% hets together that came from one leu parent and one 100% het parent, which is even more concentrated.
_________________________
Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

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#629310 - 09/05/08 10:29 PM Re: Why is Leu x Leu bad? [Re: kitsune]
GizmosGal
Unregistered


Beth, some people seem to be more concerned with coat color than genetics. Personally, and I know that I am criticized for this point of view, I would rather see two leu, third cousins, be bred together than two gray, second cousin hets. It is all a matter of opinion. I don't see that coat color matters more than lineage, but my view point is very rare. I have seen people say that two gliders are a great pairing because they were both hets, but far enough removed genetically. The same exact genetics, with 2 white babies, would be completely flamed. It doesn't make sense to me at all.

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#629338 - 09/05/08 11:06 PM Re: Why is Leu x Leu bad? [Re: ]
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
Thank you, Stacie, this is what I was wondering...I would not breed two leus together anyway, I doubt I'd ever even get the opportunity, I just didn't understand how you could pair two hets and it would be ok, but two leus from the same parents would be taboo. Other opinions?
_________________________
Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

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#629406 - 09/06/08 05:46 AM Re: Why is Leu x Leu bad? [Re: kitsune]
Leyna
Unregistered


I don't like seeing leus paired with leus, but I also don't like seeing leus paired with 100% hets either, or 100% hets with a leu parent paired together. I think 100% hets are great for proving out possible hets and it's the possible hets that should be bred... But I'm an outbreeding freak.

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#629486 - 09/06/08 10:23 AM Re: Why is Leu x Leu bad? [Re: ]
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
That makes more sense, Leyna...you can't condemn the breeding of leu to leu unless you include the higher hets as well. Only problem is, if you don't condone breeding the higher hets, it's really hard to produce as many leu babies. Darn!! We'd better just keep quiet about it so we don't have to worry about it...
_________________________
Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

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#629506 - 09/06/08 10:54 AM Re: Why is Leu x Leu bad? [Re: kitsune]
BeckiT Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 16083
Loc: Manitowoc, WI
I have 2 66% het girls (Wiillow & Stella) paired with a gray (Wiggles), 2 66% hets together (Simon & Whisper), a 100% (Amira) and a 33% het (Arian), and a leu (CK) with 2 non-leu girls (well, they're 12.5%, lol)..

Arian just proved to be a 100%, which also proved his mom Willow to be a 100% het smile
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~Becki & Crew~
Glidin' High Sugar Gliders
So You Want to Own a Sugar Glider? Read and Share wink

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#629616 - 09/06/08 03:05 PM Re: Why is Leu x Leu bad? [Re: BeckiT]
TheGliderPlayroom Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 02/24/04
Posts: 1594
Loc: Youngstown, Ohio
I personally worry more about the white to white than the lines. In chinchillas white to white is fatal, babies are either miscarried or born with severe defects. In dogs white to white, blue to blue, or merle to merle, causes deaf, blind, deformed puppies. I worry most that white to white itself will cause problems. Just because we haven't seen it YET doesn't mean we won't soon. I hope I'm wrong, because a lot of people aren't concerned and will breed white to white regardless- I truly hope we don't see a sudden increase in joeys with defects that need a lot of vet care and special treatment their entire lives, just because someone wanted to produce all white babies.
_________________________
Helen
The Glider Playroom
PSG/Sugar Glider Database
Vice-President of the NE.O.B.B.C.

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#629631 - 09/06/08 03:19 PM Re: Why is Leu x Leu bad? [Re: TheGliderPlayroom]
heartlandglider Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 11/29/06
Posts: 282
Loc: In
We have several breeds of dogs that the breed is white, so they do breed white to white. Examples, pomeranians,spitz, the great pyrenees dogs, the little highland terriers just to name a few. If these white to white breedings were carrying all these defects the breed would soon cease to exist and yet they have been around for many years. So if there are defects in white to white breedings there must be a different white gene involved.
In my one Leu to Leu pair, which is the only pair I have that is white, I have had 6 leu babies and mom is pregnant again. To this date, I have not had one born with defects. The oldest are around 11/2 years old. They have been paired with other gliders and are producing joeys of their own, none of which have any defects. Since Leu to Leu breedings hadn't been done, what proof was there that there was a problem?
Why couldn't they be like the breeds of white dogs where white to white was bred?
_________________________
Dianne Kieffer
Heartland Gliders




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#629715 - 09/06/08 06:29 PM Re: Why is Leu x Leu bad? [Re: heartlandglider]
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
Like Stacie was saying, I believe the color of the fur should always be secondary to lineage, genetics, relations...it seems to me like people think a lot more about color than genetics, not just in breeding leus to leus, but in all breedings...what is the first thing you think of when you get a new breeder joey? What color you want to breed it to! Yes, I think that color to color defects are possible, even PROBABLE...but why leucistic? Why not mosaic or white faced or albino or cremino?? Mosaics have been bred together for generations and there are no problems that weren't brought on by actual inbreeding. Albinos and Creminos are not genetically diverse enough to breed together yet. White faces, although they have been bred together, the generations are getting higher and higher...and no one seems to care that there WAS a genetic defect related to the white faced lines, caused by inbreeding...it was swept under the carpet and every time it's spoken of, the speaker gets a big wad of cotton stuffed down their throat. I think our biggest worry should be inbreeding, but now that the leucistic lines are starting to become more diverse (I mean, two years ago, a leucistic joey would hit the forums and be sold in an HOUR...now, people are having a hard time placing them) why shouldn't we EXPERIMENT a little to discover the exact nature of the genetics we are working with? The reputable breeder knows their genetics in and out, and does everything they can to learn more. New things are still popping up in glider genetics...and we don't know what to think of them! Someone needs to break out of the box and give new things a try, especially those "taboo" ideas that really don't have solid proof or backing to them...no offense Helen, I agree that a double merle breeding can be a horrifying thing to try. But how did we know what happens when you breed merle to merle? By doing it. Truth is...we DON'T know if the sky is falling until we LOOK.

As I said...I would not breed two leucistics, simply because I don't have the resources to create a controlled experiment, and don't have the resources to deal with possible health issues that may result. But hey, if the only reason that we're not breeding leucistics together is because "the lines aren't diverse enough," there is a PROBLEM with that logic because if there are hets out there that can be bred together, you can bet there are leucistics out there with the same exact lineage and parents as those hets. I think we all need to start using ACTUAL logic, not HERD logic.
_________________________
Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

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#629724 - 09/06/08 06:51 PM Re: Why is Leu x Leu bad? [Re: kitsune]
BeckiT Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 16083
Loc: Manitowoc, WI
Originally Posted By: kitsune
...and no one seems to care that there WAS a genetic defect related to the white faced lines, caused by inbreeding...it was swept under the carpet
I'd love to know more about this as it's not something I'm aware of dunno
_________________________
~Becki & Crew~
Glidin' High Sugar Gliders
So You Want to Own a Sugar Glider? Read and Share wink

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#629725 - 09/06/08 06:53 PM Re: Why is Leu x Leu bad? [Re: BeckiT]
macwood6
Unregistered


What genetic defect? I would be interested in hearing more about it.

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#629741 - 09/06/08 07:13 PM Re: Why is Leu x Leu bad? [Re: kitsune]
heartlandglider Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 11/29/06
Posts: 282
Loc: In
Thank you and amen to your comments!! I couldn't have stated it better myself.
I will continue to post updates on how my one pair of leu to leu breedings are doing and their offspring. Granted, it is only one example, but it is a beginning and it might provide some information for others in the future.
After all, as knowledgable breeders etc, isn't it part of our responsibility to supply other glider owners/breeders with what knowledge we have learned as to dos and don'ts in breedings we have done? It can save lots of years of wrong breedings, disappointment and heartbreak.
In the world of Poms, breeders don't try to educate others, which I feel is their responsibility as a breeder. I don't know why they think keeping their knowledge to themselves is going to help anyone but themselves. I guess that was the point.
_________________________
Dianne Kieffer
Heartland Gliders




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#629746 - 09/06/08 07:25 PM Re: Why is Leu x Leu bad? [Re: kitsune]
Celeste
Unregistered


PERSONALLY, I don't like the idea of experiementing with the animals to figure out if it's safe or not. I'd rather be safe then try, because so many tings could possibly go wrong. I think thats why breeders dont do it or try it...why risk it? I don't personally think the life of an animal is worth learning some information. Personal opinion.

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#629748 - 09/06/08 07:29 PM Re: Why is Leu x Leu bad? [Re: ]
macwood6
Unregistered


I think experimenting and animals are two words that do not belong together.

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#629749 - 09/06/08 07:31 PM Re: Why is Leu x Leu bad? [Re: ]
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
Those inbred joeys are another story altogether...if anyone wants to hear about them, pm me, but I won't post their story publicly again because I've had too many posts removed because they got out of hand. I had their story posted in the Special Needs forum when it first was created, but do you see it there? Nope...it was removed.

Celeste, I agree, animals are not objects. But what can you call ANY of the breeding of variations that we've pioneered? It's ALL experimental. Leus to mosaics, white faces to creminos, who knows what could have happened...but it was done without any objections. Until we DO know everything about this amazing animal's color codes, every breeding is experimental...ever hear the phrase "I wonder what I'll get??"
_________________________
Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

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#629755 - 09/06/08 07:44 PM Re: Why is Leu x Leu bad? [Re: kitsune]
Celeste
Unregistered


I don't think 'I wonder what I'll get!?' is a great way to look at breeding. You could get three heads, no eyes...The animal could be disabled for life. It isn't worth it. I don't agree with ANY of the experimenting, it's why I'm not intrested in the colored gliders. Are they pretty? Yes, gorgeous. But sadly, some only breed for money (Or to find out what happens, maybe) and, how do you know what HAS gone wrong in the line? Will everyone be honest about it? No, probably not. I'm not a huge fan of breeding animals for money in general...again, personal opinion. Watching a baby grow up is a great experience. Am I anti breeding in general? No, as long as its done RIGHT and the person is responsible with the joeys or puppys or kittens they have.

People pay a LOOTTTT of money for a colored glider...I personally feel...why should you, when you can give a good home to rescued gliders?

I am NOT trying to argue..Just having a conversation. I find it an intresting subject. I don't breed, and know little to nothing about breeding because I've avoided those subjects

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#629757 - 09/06/08 07:49 PM Re: Why is Leu x Leu bad? [Re: ]
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
Originally Posted By: Celeste

I am NOT trying to argue..Just having a conversation. I find it an intresting subject.


That is the entire reason I posted in the first place smile I am not trying to start anything...just would like to see people CONVERSING about this without it being a bashing fest. smile I am tired of seeing people letting others think for them, I want people to think for themselves...and since I got back into the forums, I've seen a lot of "herd mentality" popping up everywhere. Don't believe in breeding leus together? That's GREAT! But have your OWN reason for it, not someone else's... and certainly not "the crowd's."
_________________________
Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

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#629823 - 09/06/08 09:01 PM Re: Why is Leu x Leu bad? [Re: kitsune]
StitchsMom Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 10569
Loc: IL (St. Louis area)
This thread is actually very interesting. I guess that the only thing that really matters is the ethics of each individual breeder and what their opinions are as far as what gliders should be bred.

I suppose that what we really should be doing is appreciating those breeders that are honest about their gliders lineages, provide proper care for their animals, and are willing to educate/be educated and applauding educated buyers that research lineages and make knowledgeable decisions about which glider to buy, from what breeder, and what their intentions are for that glider. Our job, as a community dedicated to living by the motto "For the good of the glider", is to EDUCATE.

dunno What else can you do? While I don't agree with breeding leu x leu, I will admit that I'm interested to see the outcome of Dianne's pairings and I think a lot of other folks out there are too. Does anyone from this board own one of her joey's from her leu breeding pair? Can we get more info on those gliders and the gliders they have produced? You say they are all healthy, but they are still young. I'd honestly just like to follow along with them and see how they develop. I think that would be really interesting and I do think we could at least learn something from it. It's already being done, why not try to educate ourselves during the process?
_________________________
~*~Jenny and the fur kids~*~

:grey: :grey: :grey: :leu:

>>> Sugar Glider Slave <<<

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#629836 - 09/06/08 09:24 PM Re: Why is Leu x Leu bad? [Re: StitchsMom]
heartlandglider Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 11/29/06
Posts: 282
Loc: In
Jenny, thank you for at least having an open mind. I have tried to keep everyone updated on the results of my pairing. I do believe we need to help each other wherever we can and however we can. I am more than willing to share any knowledge I have with seriously interested people as opposed to those that just want to condemn and insult.
I think I posted an update here on this thread. If not, and you are interested, i would be happy to share what I know. There is one person who has one of my leu joeys. I have 2 more of these male joeys available to anyone that might be interested.
_________________________
Dianne Kieffer
Heartland Gliders




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#629853 - 09/06/08 09:40 PM Re: Why is Leu x Leu bad? [Re: heartlandglider]
StitchsMom Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 10569
Loc: IL (St. Louis area)
"Judge not lest ye be judged" or so they say.

I don't agree with breeding dogs either so, I don't breed mine. I don't have to breed two leucistics together either. That's my choice. However, I will be breeding my leu to a wf 100% leu het. I know that some people don't agree with that either. But that is also my choice. I was very particular in my selection of a mate and even had Ivory's breeder (luv ya Cindy) view his lineage before I would place a deposit.
_________________________
~*~Jenny and the fur kids~*~

:grey: :grey: :grey: :leu:

>>> Sugar Glider Slave <<<

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#629943 - 09/06/08 11:53 PM Re: Why is Leu x Leu bad? [Re: StitchsMom]
melissab
Unregistered




This breeding chart was given to me by a genetics student. It shows the relationship from glider to glider for acceptable breeding. Let me know if you have trouble reading it and I will try to explain it better.

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#630008 - 09/07/08 02:16 AM Re: Why is Leu x Leu bad? [Re: heartlandglider]
Celeste
Unregistered


I am NOT trying to judge you, it probably sounded that way. Those who would breed to experiment, thats your own buisness. I just don't personally agree with it, and wouldn't support it. It's like testing a product on an animal..I would never agree with that either. I just dont think the risk is worth it.

I see it as...Someone would never experiment with humans (It's been done before, but the things learned were ignored. (I think, correct me if I'm wrong.)), so, why is it ok for an animal? Learning or not.

Again, I'm not calling you out...I only directed it at you to apologize if I sounded to harsh on those who do experiment. There is ALWAYS a risk with breeding that something could go wrong, I think this just could up the odds and I dont see the point.


Edited by Celeste (09/07/08 02:16 AM)

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#642463 - 09/23/08 04:46 PM Re: Why is Leu x Leu bad? [Re: heartlandglider]
gnhughes
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: heartlandglider
We have several breeds of dogs that the breed is white, so they do breed white to white. Examples, pomeranians,spitz, the great pyrenees dogs, the little highland terriers just to name a few. If these white to white breedings were carrying all these defects the breed would soon cease to exist and yet they have been around for many years. So if there are defects in white to white breedings there must be a different white gene involved.
In my one Leu to Leu pair, which is the only pair I have that is white, I have had 6 leu babies and mom is pregnant again. To this date, I have not had one born with defects. The oldest are around 11/2 years old. They have been paired with other gliders and are producing joeys of their own, none of which have any defects. Since Leu to Leu breedings hadn't been done, what proof was there that there was a problem?
Why couldn't they be like the breeds of white dogs where white to white was bred?


To start out, wanted to let you know that I am not flaming you. I don't have an opinion one way or the other. Just trying to shed some light on the matter!!

I understand what you are trying to say here but this is kind of like comparing apples to oranges. For example, my mom bred Samoyeds my whole life. They are white dogs breeding to white dogs. However, this color is considered the normal gene for this species. Now, if you ended up with a black Samoyed or another color for that matter, that would be considered a genetic variation or a possible mutation. However, for right now, many would consider the normal color gene to be the classic grey in sugar gliders. So, white would be a genetic variation or possibly a mutation. Now at some point it is reasonable to assume that inbreeding could have resulted in the Leu gene being expressed and then reexpressed with subsequent inbreeding. When inbreeding is involved that means that not only color genes are inbred but the genes that eventually lead to the development of almost every thing in the body. That's when the trouble starts. If the lines are not far enough apart for all of the genes, malformations or unwanted genetic mutations start appearing and then start expressing when these recessive genes are matched, through inbreeding for example.

So, in your example above...those breeds of dogs are not being inbred when they are bred color to color because the lines are so far apart now. Those color mutations are considered normal variations rather than a genetic mutation. With sugar gliders, look at how many Lues there are compared to the classic greys. Leus really are considered rare and many can be traced back to the same distant lineage. (But, same goes for almost all of the other color mutations/variations in suggies. We should not just be singling out the Lues. Any inbreeding to develop any specific trait whether it be the color of fur, or the shape of the head, or the length of a tail can result in undesirable consequences.)

Based on my education in genetics in college...I can see why many feel that the Lue/Lue pairing is more risky than the Lue/Lue het pairing or the Lue het/Lue het pairing if they are all spaced the exact same as far as lineage goes. It is all about what genes are being expressed versus just being carried. In a species where white is a rarity, a recessive trait, and where there was inbreeding ivolved to get it to be successively expressed in several generations, one can conclude that many other not so desirable genes may have been copied and passed on. It would be a matter of time before these unwanted genes accidentally meet with the pairing of a not distant enough set of gliders. To be honest, equal care should be taken when breeding all of the color variations of suggies. It is definately wise to breed far enough out so that any other mutations are diluted enough they won't start expressing. It is just so hard to know what is far enough. So little is known about suggie genes!!

This doesn't even scratch the surface. There really is so much more involved. I am sure I am not even explaining it correctly, it is so complicated. I am sure someone will come along and share their expertise or correct any mistakes I have written!! I just hope that all suggie breeders breed responsibly and wish them happy, healthy suggie joeys for us to adopt!!

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