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#636766 - 09/15/08 10:05 PM Behavior during recovery
seek
Unregistered


This is a little long but skip to the ***'s below for my question.

My glider is named Houdini. He was OOP on Feb 1st, 2001. He was neutered when I got him at just over a year old. His has always been healthy other than an eye infection when young. I received him as he was stressed out being next to another glider pair's cage. His "mate" passed away nearly 3 years ago from unknown causes. She had encephalitis.

I have a glider who suddenly became lethargic last Thursday night (had energy when woke up but quickly lost) so after not getting much water into him, I took him to his vet. The standard first checks were done and it was given subcutaneous fluids for apparent dehydration along with some Baytril. His weight was in the standard range he has always been in so dehydration was a little strange. It wasn't so bad that they didn't want to get some blood this day, with him coming back the next for them to take the rest they needed. After sitting in the vet for 3 hours, he was improving at a slow pace but was improving so they felt it would be best for him to go back home and be contained in a small enclosure with food, water, and pouch. I had received subcutaneous fluids to use myself if need be. His strength was quite strong for being in his condition. He became more awake and more lively so with plenty of fluids and bml in his dish, I went to bed for work 4 hours later.

I was woken up to him running in circles continuously and when I had him stopped, his eyes were bouncing left and right so I rushed him back to the vet with fears for the worse. At this point the vet began looking into non-metabolic problems with the typical answer of what may cause this behavior (as happens with other pets also). The vet wanted him to remain onsite for the next 24 hours for care and examination which I had no problem agreeing to as the staff's knowledge is the best in my area from what I've been able to find. He remained at the vet for the next 26 hours.

I stopped by after work later in the day and with the care and support of the staff at the veterinarian, he was much more relaxed and seemingly closer to being himself. His eyes were bright and he was quite energetic. The vet had given him one more subcutaneous shot in the morning and hand fed all day with many juicy fruits and Baytril during the day.

His condition remained the same for the remainder of the night and they had gotten the remaining blood taken while he was at the vet. The following morning I went back in to pick him up and he looked as normal as every with exception of his coat being a bit messy at this point. While the vet is still not sure what caused his condition, he is on Baytril for 2 weeks oral once daily. I should hear back from the blood results in the next day or two.

********
I don't think I'm leaving anything important out but I may be. Here is where my concern comes in.
********

As a baby, this little guy had an eye infection and had to be given eyedrops. You can understand how much anyone or anything likes their eyelids being held open for a few weeks to get drops put in. Ever since this point in time, he's been sweet but a finger biter no matter who it is. When he got became ill last week, he was too tired and didn't have energy to bite. After having his "episode" and getting "better" (I hope), he still doesn't bite. He is acting a little strange with not wanting to be in a pouch or anything. He'd rather lay out in the open on some fabric than be enclosed inside something. The exception to this is he PREFERS to be cupped up in my hands and falls asleep quickly so I doubt it is anything weird like skin sensitivity.

I am cleaning all his cage accessories (again, I just did days before this entire problem came to be). Nothing but water and baking soda gets used to clean their cage and accessories. I'm not sure if he has a problem with some smell or what. I worry about the way he acts, whether or not its health related or due to something that happened during his episode. I fear he may have had some memory loss as he acts like he is in all new surroundings. I don't see familiarity in the way he behaves.

He is going back to the vet tomorrow, Tuesday, for a post-exam but I don't think they'll find anything physically wrong with him. I just don't know what to do. He's eating on his own but I can't verify that he's drinking out of the water bottle as I haven't seen it yet.

What should I do other than be supportive and continue him on his medication?


Edited by LSardou (09/15/08 10:21 PM)
Edit Reason: removed medication dosages

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#636773 - 09/15/08 10:20 PM Re: Behavior during recovery [Re: ]
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 7356
Loc: Austin, TX
I don't know the answer to your question. You'll have to work with the vet. I wanted to post so that you would know you are being supported, too. hug2
_________________________
Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.


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#636779 - 09/15/08 10:25 PM Re: Behavior during recovery [Re: USMom]
LSardou Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 21060
Loc: Kansas
I agree with USMom, at this point it sounds like your vet is taking every step necessary to try and determine the cause of sudden changes.

I'm sure that once all of his test results come back, she will have a better idea as to whats going on.

Sending lots of prayers to you and your little one.

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#636780 - 09/15/08 10:28 PM Re: Behavior during recovery [Re: USMom]
suggiemom1980 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 13744
Loc: Vincennes, IN, USA
Your vet sounds like a good one. It may help if s/he consults other glider vets. That's the only suggestion I can think of. Prayers and hugs for you both! Please keep us updated!
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Connie

812-890-9734, 24/7 Emergencies/Joey issues

SmallWorldSuggies

"The greater the challenge, the sweeter the reward"

"Glide free :rbridge: Silly "Ozball" Ozzie. You left us 11/21/12..way too soon. You're forever loved, remembered, missed."

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#636781 - 09/15/08 10:28 PM Re: Behavior during recovery [Re: USMom]
hipbchik Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 2470
Loc: Tucson, AZ
I'm sorry your little guy is ill, it sounds like you are doing everything that can be done at this point, and you pretty much have to play the waiting game getting your results from the vet. I'm sorry I don't have better answers for you, but I'll light a candle for you & your little guy as soon as I get home.

Hang in there! hug2
_________________________
peace~carolyn



"Your mind is the birthplace of ingenuity and then you need your heart as the Mediator..." ~Lil C

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#636782 - 09/15/08 10:28 PM Re: Behavior during recovery [Re: USMom]
Jackie_Chans_Mom Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/01/07
Posts: 2511
Loc: Texas
You are doing just what you should do. Until he gets a clean bill of health from the vet, keep him in a hospital cage and check him multiple times each day for dehydration.

What diet are you feeding?
_________________________
~~ Val B ~~ 806-803-0318
Daily giving the abused, unloved, unwanted and neglected SOMETHING TO BELIEVE IN

PLEASE COMPLETE YOUR SUGAR GROUP SURVEYS!!!!!!!!!!!!

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#636801 - 09/15/08 11:05 PM Re: Behavior during recovery [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
seek
Unregistered


He gets BML, fruits with some vegetables (like they ever want to eat those...), and random protein sources between anything from mealworms and crickets to chicken. I try to avoid crickets normally since from most places I'm not sure how they're raised. This last one varies more than the rest as although I can give him certain fruits or vegetables, he refuses to eat them. He prefers the BML mix over anything else and he got a fresh batch with brand new rep-cal on Friday (the old was nearing expiration so I worried about its potency).


Edited by seek (09/15/08 11:06 PM)

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#636807 - 09/15/08 11:09 PM Re: Behavior during recovery [Re: ]
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 7356
Loc: Austin, TX
Seek, you need to go to the diets link and read and follow the BML diet precisely. There are a certain number of fruits and veggies they are supposed to get. It is not good if they skip any of the diet. It will throw the balances off.
I doubt if diet is the issue, but you will want to look at it.
_________________________
Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.


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#636814 - 09/15/08 11:26 PM Re: Behavior during recovery [Re: USMom]
seek
Unregistered


Oh, I'm not saying I don't feed him in equal parts. I may have been a little unclear in my previous post. He does get more food than he'll eat and that includes one part bml, two fruits/vegs and ~2-3 parts protein but I haven't measured precisely in years. Certain foods go uneaten more than others so things get adjusted accordingly and there's a huge list of things he will never touch (just pick up and throw on the bottom of the cage). Carrots depend on mood, pineapple is a never and most melons seldomly get touched, love corn but don't get it often, etc.

Tonight he's got bml, a pitless cherry, 3 blueberries, big chunk of cantaloupe, part of a peach piece, 1 raspberry, 1/2 baby carrot chopped up, 1 green bean. The goal is moisture since I cannot even get him to drink from the waterbottle by holding it up to him. He normally gets his protein during the day since they can be the messiest part of the diet. I once found a live cricket in the laundry...

*Edit*
I doubt much has changed in terms of diet over the last 8 years but I'll take a glance at the forum.


Edited by seek (09/16/08 12:10 AM)

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#636845 - 09/16/08 02:12 AM Re: Behavior during recovery [Re: ]
seek
Unregistered


We just got back from the vet again - he is showing signs of being blind. He doesn't seem to be able to see anything around him. He's staring out the cage at a sound outside and when I got close to touch him, he got startled. 10 seconds later I did the same thing with my finger in obvious view. He will walk around in circles on my hand trying to find a way off when he is inches from the inside of the cage, yet when I let him touch it, he jumps right off.

We didn't get the usual two people who have always worked with him as it's late, but the one working the current night shift doesn't think he's blind from what she can tell. She believes his behavior is all neurological and to continue going down the current path or treatment. Preliminary blood test results show infection but the complete panel hasn't been sent back yet.

We'll be going back tomorrow evening for another checkup and the blood results, then go from there. He either can't find or doesn't understand the water bottle (I've tried force feeding water from it, now I'm on eyedropper instead) so I have to resort to giving him fresh dishes of liquids throughout the day which he drinks from happily.

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#636857 - 09/16/08 05:03 AM Re: Behavior during recovery [Re: ]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
It sounds like one of two things with the symptomology you have described, especially the circling and the eyes bouncing back and forth when stopped. 1) An inner ear infection. This can throw off the glider's balance, causing them to run in circles and when stopped to feel vertigo, which would cause the eyes bouncing. Treatment with an antibiotic is the best course. 2) Neurological damage. This can be temporary, from an infection, or it can be permanent. I went through something similar with two of my gliders two years ago. You can read about my experiences and the course of treatments prescribed by my vet by going to:
Ear Infection or Neurological Damage?
Followed by:
Neurological Damage
Hopefully these will be helpful to you in some small way hug2
If your vet would like to consult with my vet about any of this, please give him/her the following information:
Dr. Kristen West @ Mandel Veterinary Clinic: 216-321-6040
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#636993 - 09/16/08 11:06 AM Re: Behavior during recovery [Re: sugarglidersuz]
seek
Unregistered


Yes, those are the two things the vet is looking at and they would like him to stay on the Baytril. It takes a little over 5 minutes to get him to get his dosage with all the squirming but thankfully none seems to dribble down his chin.

This morning he was sleeping in his freshly-washed pouch (had to pull it out to check as I didn't see him which was strange for his new behavior). He's getting around fine and "seems" normal other than just not acting like his normal self and doesn't seem interested in looking around the room. Normally you'd hold him and he'd push outward into the open air to look around, then get ready at the edge of whatever he's on and jump. I saw this behavior once the last few days and that was it (I think Sunday?).

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#637376 - 09/16/08 09:18 PM Re: Behavior during recovery [Re: ]
lindayaks
Unregistered


I'm sorry you're going through this, and it sounds like you and the vet are doing everything you can.

Hope and prayers for your boy.

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#637526 - 09/16/08 11:47 PM Re: Behavior during recovery [Re: ]
seek
Unregistered


He is still showing signs of neurological distress - the right to left head movement is still there. The vet doesn't want to put him through any more tests until more days have passed with the medication. He won't touch meal worms any longer. He apparently can't see them and when one squirms around his legs, he freaks out. It is going to be harder to get him the protein he needs this way since he acts like he doesn't know what any food item is any longer, including chicken, with exception of his favorite bml. The chopped open mealworm doesn't work. He isn't showing physical signs of distress or discomfort but I fear that his condition may go downhill as it certainly isn't improving over the last 4 days. He will drink from a waterbottle if I squeeze water out but doesn't do anything on his own. It looks as if he isn't groomed but he apparently is spending quite some time doing the opposite - while being held, he has been grooming himself quite much. He may have a cataract forming in one eye.

Anyways, we're just continuing with the current plan. From what I understand with gliders and how they take on health problems, I don't see much chance he'll be with us in the long run. If problems don't stop showing up, well, we all know the end result that may come. If he can hold out for another week or two, the vet would like to take another blood sample to see if his immune system drops its guard as right now it is showing signs of fighting something.

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#637681 - 09/17/08 05:52 AM Re: Behavior during recovery [Re: ]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
As long as he is eating his BML you don't have to worry about whether he's getting enough protein or not. With the BML diet, the BML IS the protein source. In fact, you should take another look at the Back to Basics BML. For a number of years, many people made modifications to the diet from the way it was originally made and tested. These variations ended up with skewed vitamin and mineral ratios. The Back to Basics BML is the way the diet was originally made with the fruits & vegetables it was tested with to ensure vitamin & mineral balance for the gliders. Feeding JUST the fruits & vegetables listed, and giving the mealworms (or other insects) in the morning, is important for the long-term well-being of the gliders.
Keep in mind that the mealworms or other insects are given as much for teeth cleaning as for protein. In fact, the chewing of the hard exoskeletons is necessary for helping to keep their teeth clean since in captivity they are not chewing through wood to get to their sap & nectar.
HTH
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#637926 - 09/17/08 01:36 PM Re: Behavior during recovery [Re: sugarglidersuz]
seek
Unregistered


This guy has gotten his under coat clean. He's still acting the same but he looks a lot better physically. He was spending time exploring his cage this morning before I took him out and wrapped him up in fleece which put him to sleep quickly. He kept running into the edges of cages when exploring though so he is still obviously having sight and/or coordination problems.

There isn't much to explore at the moment though as he only has the basics in his cage, being placed in the same spots every day (water dish in corner under actual water bottle (I'm hoping he'll find it and start using it one of these days), food next to it, pouch a few inches away on the ground).

The vet doesn't feel it necessary to run any other tests at the moment, but to rerun a leukocyte count in a week to see if his white cell count drops to normal levels. I apparently forgot to mention this although I hinted at it - his blood tests (CBC only this first round) showed elevated white blood cell count. If this doesn't drop after two weeks of being on antibiotics, infection can more easily be ruled out. Only at this point, after the two weeks of medication, would they like to recheck and possibly do a comprehensive to check his organs if things don't improve over their initial levels last Friday.

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#639570 - 09/19/08 08:24 PM Re: Behavior during recovery [Re: ]
seek
Unregistered


I have begun to question some of the vet's choices. First they wanted to do a comprehensive blood exam but after bringing him in last night for it, they recommended against it. They put him on a second antibiotic (to go alongside the Baytril), but his left eye has developed a cataract that is now quite apparent in direct light. Them speaking with a pathologist recommended the comprehensive and they were looking towards lack of "VITAMIN D". What I don't understand is as far as I know, if indoors/behind glass, you can't get the proper sun rays that your body convert to vitamin d so if this were the case, the majority of gliders here would develop the same problem(s).

These contradicting recommendations from the vet are due to him seeing a different doctor on Monday and Tuesday of this week. His original vet saw him last night and recommended against putting him under for blood draw since he acts perfectly healthy other than an apparent disability in eye sight.

He's retaining his weight but I worry about the amount he's eating as it is considerably less than before last week. He doesn't want to touch much of anything else besides the BML. Mealworms are still a no-go.

This is where I must request any additional information I can get that may help my vet further diagnose the cause of his "episode". While I have to take certain information with a grain of salt, any contact information of glider-knowledgable vets that my vet can talk with, besides the one I have already received in this thread( Thanks Suz for that information), would be greatly appreciated. Even if he is not terminally ill, I would still like to find out what is happening to him and why. I don't like just knowing that "it seems to be working". I want to know why, as I'm sure the entire glider community and medical field would also.

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#639590 - 09/19/08 08:49 PM Re: Behavior during recovery [Re: ]
seek
Unregistered


A couple pictures of him today, getting interrupted during nap time sleeping in between layers of fleece (he seems to like it more than pouches...). He still seems to sleep a lot but that could be due to either the illness, the antibiotics, or whatever else.

800x600 HERE


800x600 HERE


Edited by seek (09/19/08 08:51 PM)

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#639634 - 09/19/08 10:06 PM Re: Behavior during recovery [Re: ]
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 7356
Loc: Austin, TX
Interesting. A second antibiotic is helpful when you don't know what's going on, as it is less likely that the illness is resistant to both. He looks good in his pics, and in that first one, he is grooming. So, don't beat yourself up too much.
_________________________
Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.


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#639642 - 09/19/08 10:15 PM Re: Behavior during recovery [Re: USMom]
seek
Unregistered


This is what makes it so hard. He obviously has changed (eyesight especially) and seems like a completely different glider, yet he still goes about his normal glider behavior and there's no self mutilation.

Getting him to take his antibiotics is an interesting experience. After Monday, it became nearly impossible - he just tries spitting it out and flinging his head around to throw it all over me. I use double the dose and shoot for getting him to eat half of that. They gave me more than enough for his dose for 2 weeks so it works out.

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#639676 - 09/19/08 11:07 PM Re: Behavior during recovery [Re: ]
7glider7
Unregistered


I have a glider that is mostly blind due to cataracts and he gets around just fine. dunno I'm glad it sounds like he is eating for you and possibly improving. hug2

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#639695 - 09/19/08 11:31 PM Re: Behavior during recovery [Re: ]
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 7356
Loc: Austin, TX
Seek, if you have a syringe and a needle, inject the meds into a mealie and see if he'll eat that. Or follow up right away with a bit of something good, pudding, ice cream, honey, something, so he doesn't shake it out. I had to medicate one for 75 days, 4 times a day for 20 days, then twice a day for the rest and gee whiz, I wondered if he was even getting any...
_________________________
Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.


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#639771 - 09/20/08 01:18 AM Re: Behavior during recovery [Re: USMom]
seek
Unregistered


He has made improvement tonight - the scent of mealworms caught his nose earlier when feeding my other one and he began to freak out. Upon putting one in front of him, he finally attacked it and began eating. It seems certain memories are coming back to him and/or he is regaining some eyesight (or both since these are both neurological for the most part). Its good to see him eating mealworms again, and enjoying them. It was even harder to get medication in his mouth tonight, he's getting quite strong. I think I'm going go have to do them in the early evenings when he is still a bit tired.

He's been getting more into a normal sleep schedule today and seems wide awake now that it's dark. I also noticed he was eating both BML and some fruit today, he hasn't been touching anything much but BML for the last week. Lastly, I finally got some normal-sized stools when feeding him his medicine tonight.

I'm still not sure what the main culprit is/was though. I worry it could be anything from an infection to some toxin in a piece of food or chemical that mysteriously got into his cage. I honestly don't think I'll find the answer... For now, I'll just go with the most likely answer being something an antibiotic is curing.

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#644339 - 09/26/08 12:58 AM Re: Behavior during recovery [Re: ]
seek
Unregistered


A short update, he went back to the vet today as his eye just became irritated by something - the front edge appears to be swollen. The inner pink part is visible and extending into the eye socket. His normal veterinarian was working which was good to see, but he doesn't think anything is wrong with his eye other than the possibility of something getting inside it, like his medication. I wouldn't be surprised about that since he flings his head around when it gets in/on his mouth, getting it on the fleece, and while I have not seen his eye actually touch it, he does push away against the fabric and could have gotten some in his eye.

Anyways, the vet was actually surprised with his apparently well being but remaining lack of eyesight. He would like to see him in a month to check up but has the same thoughts as I do - the poor guy is as healthy as he's going to get. The vet did mention that for nothing more than basically research, he suggested getting an MRI done to see what is going on and to further research into sugargliders. I don't think I can fork over $1500 just for research purposes that have very little to no chance of improving his health beyond what it is now.

He has gained some weight and looks good other than his lack of ability to see. I believe he can still see light though as he is back on his day/night schedule for the most part. A mealworm right in front of him (or to the sides as one eye may be worse than the other) he won't touch until he smells the thing.

Anyways, overall, the guy is doing good. He walks on his wheel some but I still have not seen him drink from the water bottle. Certain days I've seen his water bowl go down or disappear altogether so he's getting around well. The cage has retained the same layout the last two weeks to help him during this difficult time. His food dish nears empty wen I go to remove it so he's sure got his appetite back.

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#644519 - 09/26/08 01:06 PM Re: Behavior during recovery [Re: ]
BeckiT Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 16083
Loc: Manitowoc, WI
did they give you any sort of drops/rinse to treat the eye irritation? Even if it was just something getting in the eye, the vet should've tried to wash it out. I have one with eye issues (her eye was scratched when she was 2 weeks OOP), and she sees a veterinary ophthalmologist. She has to have drops at least a couple times a week for chronic dry eye in the eye that was injured
_________________________
~Becki & Crew~
Glidin' High Sugar Gliders
So You Want to Own a Sugar Glider? Read and Share wink

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#644992 - 09/27/08 01:09 AM Re: Behavior during recovery [Re: BeckiT]
seek
Unregistered


No, he apparently did not think it was anything to worry about and was more interested in why he has improved with the antibiotics, yet his eyesight remains missing 2 weeks later. I have not noticed a change in his eye since last night, for better or worse, so another day passes with no change, I WILL be taking him back.

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#645134 - 09/27/08 10:25 AM Re: Behavior during recovery [Re: ]
BeckiT Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 16083
Loc: Manitowoc, WI
Originally Posted By: seek
was more interested in why he has improved with the antibiotics, yet his eyesight remains missing 2 weeks later.
The antibiotics only treat the infection. The damage that was caused by the infection in the 1st place is most often irreversible worried So, he may never regain the eyesight that he's lost (my Willow only has very limited eyesight in her right eye from the scratch). If he doesn't regain the eyesight, he may need some rearrangements made to his home so that he can get around better/safer wink Willow doesn't need any help that way, but, she has to get her mealies out of a bowl because her depth perception is off and she can never seem to grab them out of the tweezers
_________________________
~Becki & Crew~
Glidin' High Sugar Gliders
So You Want to Own a Sugar Glider? Read and Share wink

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#645147 - 09/27/08 11:18 AM Re: Behavior during recovery [Re: BeckiT]
seek
Unregistered


That sounds similar to his problem but I have to place mealworms in a bowl and place his face right into the bowl before he'll realize they're there. He already gets around his reptarium fine and I haven't seen or thought of any issues he'd have with the current static layout.

I'm just glad he pulled through. He still acts like he enjoys being around so everything's good.

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#646000 - 09/28/08 05:05 PM Re: Behavior during recovery [Re: ]
seek
Unregistered


His eye is back to normal and he's beginning to get nippy. I assume this is only due to the forced medication but we'll see soon if it has more to do with his old self.

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