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#642173 - 09/23/08 12:24 PM Unknown toxin killing gliders
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have lost two, treating two with antibiotic and steroid, and monitoring 16 others, some of which have lost weight. The necropsy was idicitive of long term exposure to a toxin. Symptoms are hemolytic anemia, differentiated cells in intenstine, liver and kidney damage, hyptoproteinimia, and some other stuff. It coincides with the new aviaries I had built form cage wire from Klubertanz who bought it from Rivendale. Things were fine until the aviearies. It may be a coincidence, and possibly a blood parasite or something else that as lead to a immunosuppressive act. So far the ones who have died are related, but the others that are thin and being monitored are not, and upon testing had an appropriate packed cell volume. 4 different vets are involved and are suspicous of the cage wire, which is the vinyl coated 1-1/2. I'm concerned about toxic cage syndrome. When the cages were first built they had been sitting outside in the shade. They should have aired out. Once they were constructed I washed them down before placing the gliders in. The smell from the new cage wire was overwhelming and I left the windows and door opein to ventilate for several days. The smell concerned me and I called the manufacturer who told me there was nothing to be concerned about. I would have waited to put the gliders in, but I did not have the room at the time, because I am in my mom's house taking care of her while she was dying from ALS. The gliders are back in their old cages, and unhappy about the cramped quarters. I want to put them back in the aviearies, but I'm worried. Ive called various places to find out about testing the wire to rule it out, but to no avail. My vet has a friend at a pharm company who works in toxicology who will run test there in her free time, at no cost, so it may take awhile. I am inpatient in this matter. I am not a breeder, I resuce them. This situation is tearing me up. Any suggestions or has anyone heard of a similar problem? Thank you, Kitty

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#642179 - 09/23/08 12:30 PM Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Anonymous]
Monster
Unregistered


Wow, I am so sorry to hear about your babies. I have not eevr heard of this. I have heard of other things killing numerous gliders such as certain molds and parasites.

I'm sorry I couldn't be of more help, but there are so many knowledgable glider people here, maybe someone else has the answer...

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#642181 - 09/23/08 12:30 PM Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Anonymous]
TheGliderPlayroom Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 02/24/04
Posts: 1594
Loc: Youngstown, Ohio
Is the cage wire blue or black? I've heard of some major problems stemming from the blue cage wire, but I don't know if it was Rivendale that made it.
_________________________
Helen
The Glider Playroom
PSG/Sugar Glider Database
Vice-President of the NE.O.B.B.C.

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#642195 - 09/23/08 12:49 PM Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: TheGliderPlayroom]
pappy1264 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 11015
Loc: MA
I don't have any experience with anything like this, but I am so sorry for your loss and am praying for your other babies. That is pretty scary to think the wire could do this!
_________________________
Timmy, Gidget(RIP), Bandit, Petey(RIP), Phoebe, Jake (RIP) Piper(RIP), Pru(RIP), Paige, Cole, Molly(RIP), Oliver, Wyatt, Roo(RIP), Romeo, Pennie, Mandy(RIP), Madison, Garth, Kikipoo, Stasia, Bella, Petunia(RIP), Helen, Sydney, Kizzy and Sweet Pea's mom,
Mary

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#642197 - 09/23/08 12:53 PM Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: pappy1264]
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 7356
Loc: Austin, TX
Get the rivendale wire out of there, now. It made my babies sick and it made PrincessMegi's babies sick. Get it out. There is something on the wire that makes them ill.
_________________________
Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.


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#642198 - 09/23/08 12:54 PM Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: USMom]
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 7356
Loc: Austin, TX
Once you remove the babies from there, in about 2 weeks, they should be fine. If so, it's that wire. They told me that a lot of the people that use their wire pressure wash with steam??? I don't know how to do this, but no amount or type of washing worked. I tossed an entire roll of wire.
_________________________
Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.


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#642209 - 09/23/08 01:08 PM Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: USMom]
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 6894
Loc: NW Missouri
It is the wire. The Riverdale wire (I used blue, but they make other colors) made one of my gliders completely bald and her skin scabby. She did regrow it, but only after being removed from the cage. Please get them out of the cages ASAP!!! There is no way to clean it. I tried tire cleaner at the car wash, industrial strength degreaser, nothing works. You can find safe wire at klubertanz.com
_________________________

"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist

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#642210 - 09/23/08 01:09 PM Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: USMom]
LSardou Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 21060
Loc: Kansas
I just wanted to send you my deepest condolences and prayers to you and all your little ones. I hope that you will find the cause soon.

Moving this to Health & Hygiene.
Please take a few minutes to register, this way you can have access to the entire forum and maybe others will be able to help you too.

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#642213 - 09/23/08 01:13 PM Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: LSardou]
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 6894
Loc: NW Missouri
Please read this thread:

WARNING: Blue PVC Coated Wire


Edited by sugarglidersuz (09/23/08 04:48 PM)
Edit Reason: to fix link
_________________________

"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist

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#642215 - 09/23/08 01:14 PM Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: LSardou]
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 7356
Loc: Austin, TX
Megi, she bought it from Klubertanz, who bought it from Rivendale. Ack! I had the same thing happen, one of my girls went bald, it was ugly. But the vet kept saying they were fine.
_________________________
Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.


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#642219 - 09/23/08 01:16 PM Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: USMom]
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 7356
Loc: Austin, TX
Kitty, did the wire smell like metallic?
_________________________
Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.


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#642220 - 09/23/08 01:17 PM Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Anonymous]
KattyM Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 9910
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
I'm so sorry for your loss, Kitty. hug2 It sounds like you're doing everything you can at the moment. I've not heard of this, either.

When you say the ones who have died are related, do you mean to one another, or related in their symptoms before they died? Going with the thought that it's related to the cage wire, if they were physically related, they may both have had a compromised immune system or some other predisposition that would make them more susceptible. The other gliders who are thin but not related could be stronger. Or perhaps if there is something on the cage wire, it might be dissipating with time.

Perhaps the ones who died (if they were related and came to you together) brought with them something that was contagious and harmful? (So the cage correlation is only coincidental?)

Have you asked any of your team of researchers if there is anything you can do to the cages to further sanitize or remove any possible toxins? Can Klubertanz or Rivendale tell you where the cage wire was stored before it was shipped out? They may not know or be hesitant to tell you, but that might be useful to know (if it's a possible mold or some other toxin).

I wish I could be of more help.

I encourage you to register so you can take full advantage of the board (posting in all the forums).
_________________________
Owned by my :grey: "Eight is Enough" colony:

2003: Hiroshi (M)
2009: Herbie (M)

:rbridge:
2002-2004: Keiko (F) and baby Tomoki (M)
2009: Sammy (F), Charlie (F), Murray (M)
2010: BJ (M)
My gallery

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#642245 - 09/23/08 01:35 PM Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: KattyM]
gnhughes
Unregistered


Kitty where are you located? Some of us have extra cages you can borrow so you can get them out of those cages while you're trying to figure out what's going on!! We're praying for your little ones. Keep us updated.

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#642278 - 09/23/08 02:12 PM Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: USMom]
lindayaks
Unregistered


I read the posts in princessmegi's link. I did not have that metallic "shop" smell, but it did reek of a cross between pesticide and weed killer. I knew to wash all cages before using, but to be on the safe side I took it to a car wash, then brought it home and used dish soap then bleach. The gliders never got sick from the wire. I can't tell you who manufactured it, it was too many years ago.

I don't use wire cages any more, I use reptariums. I've had them come smelling like pesticide, but a wash in the washing machine with detergent, bleach, and a double rinse takes care of it.

Hope you can solve the problem. let us know how your "kids" are doing. Register and join in, we'd love to have you.

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#642399 - 09/23/08 03:36 PM Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ]
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 956
Loc: Homestead, FL
Wow I'm so sorry for your loss, I truly hope you find the cause to their illness. I really hope you join us we always have room for suggie slaves!
_________________________
Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.

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#642469 - 09/23/08 04:53 PM Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Adri]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
I am so very sorry about your loss hug2 Thank you for bringing this toxin to our attention. Based on your information and that provided by Shawna/USMom and Megan/PrincessMegi I have now added the Blue-Coated Wire to the sticky about HAZARDOUS toys or toy parts & cage parts list
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#642476 - 09/23/08 05:11 PM Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: sugarglidersuz]
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 7356
Loc: Austin, TX
Suz, I don't know if we are sure that it is the blue coated wire, but all the wire discussed came from Rivendale or Riverdale Mills. I am glad you added it, though! Thanks!


Edited by USMom (09/23/08 05:12 PM)
_________________________
Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.


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#642576 - 09/23/08 07:29 PM Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: USMom]
SariYappa Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/11/08
Posts: 5997
Loc: Upstate, SC
Has anyone heard from this person? Did they register? Do we have an update?

This is SO SAD!! cry
_________________________
*Whatever I said, I said it with a Smile*

wave Sari

:grey:Sugar:grey:Nibbles:grey:Destiny

Rapid Runner *Sold Out!

Suggie Smart Mart *Home of The Hippie Pouch & Suggie Chandelier

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#642936 - 09/24/08 08:57 AM Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Anonymous]
PixTrix
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Anonymous
The necropsy was idicitive of long term exposure to a toxin.


Kitty,

I am so sorry to hear of your loss. You say the necropsy indicates a long term exposure to a toxin? Does the necropsy say what kind of toxin the gliders had in their system? How long have you had the gliders in the aviary built of the pvc-coated wire from Klubertanz? How old were the rescues before they were put in the aviary? How long were the gliders in the aviary before the ill effects showed up? What kind of cage were the gliders kept in prior to the aviary and prior to your rescuing them?

All of our cages are built with pvc-coated wire from Klubertanz and I have never had a problem with my gliders getting sick due to the wire. I always wash the wire with Dawn detergent and hot water on both sides prior to building the cage with the wire. Yes, the wire can be overwhelming when it is new and it needs to be aired out prior to using the wire.

With the exception of the blue wire cage case, I have never heard of this cage toxin syndrome affiliated with the black pvc-coated wire from Klubertanz. I read that both black and blue wire were manufactured by the same company and I do not know why blue coating makes the gliders ill and worse, perhaps it is the dye or something?

There are many members here at GC who use the Klubertanz wire who has yet to report any ill effects from the wire, including myself.

Did you notify Klubertanz? I am sure Richard would want to know about this. I know I would.

Again, I am very sorry to hear about your gliders.


Jen

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#642940 - 09/24/08 09:04 AM Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ]
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 6894
Loc: NW Missouri
Is there anywhere in the post where she says the wire color? I know Klubertanz also sells green wire. Is it possible it was the green wire and not the black??? I have 2 black Klubertanz cages, one made in February 2007 and the other early this year, so the wire was bought at different times and have had no trouble. My only problem was the blue wire.
_________________________

"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist

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#642955 - 09/24/08 09:21 AM Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: princessmegi]
Their_mommy Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 11/07/06
Posts: 767
Loc: Canton Tx
I am so sorry to hear of your loss.
I am wondering if maybe the wire was sprayed with insecticide at the point or origin?
And the oil like substance still remains on the wire?
Sure hope she comes back to let us know about the questions asked and hope the other suggies will be ok.
_________________________
As time goes by and my loves pass. I will forever be greatfull for the time we had together. I will see you soon my loves.

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#643889 - 09/25/08 12:07 PM Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Their_mommy]
PixTrix
Unregistered


Any updates? We are all anxious to hear what the necropsy says and what the toxicologist finds out from the tests.


Jen

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#643917 - 09/25/08 12:53 PM Possible toxins and gliders
Anonymous
Unregistered


I can't register with my hotmail account,the page will not let me. I've called Klubertanz who told me that they purchased the wire from Rivendale. I e-mail Riverdale with the questions of: 1 What chemical is used to adhere the vinyl to the wire and if they use recycled material? If the use recycled platics than the probablity of toxin is increased. Rivendale will not respond to me. I did not tell them I was looking for a toxin, but that I was going to build glider cages. I did not want them on the defense if it was indeed a toxin in the wire. Thank you for the responses and prayers. The necropsy can not specify what toxin. They have to know what to look for. $600 and they were no able to tell me. The wire is black coated and the problems started showing up notably approximately a month or two after the aviaries were built. In order to have the wire tested one has to know directly what to test for. I have not taken in any new ones in around two years, because I was taking care of my mother who had ALS. And i am glad that I did not take in anymore. Therefore I do not believe any contaminent was brought in by a glider. I am in Phoenix AZ. My e-mail, since I can not registar is kittybaran@hotmail.com I had taken 2 of them 3 different times to either a regular exotic vet or to the emergency animal clinic, before the last run to the clinic where Hobb was in ICU where he died 3 day later. I had to have the other put down. I am now working with two vets at the Arizona Exotic Animal Hospital. They have been doing research and one has called in a favor from a friend who works at a Pharm company in toxicology. She will run tests on Token, who I had to put down at no cost. But it is in her free time, therefor I do not know how long it will take. If anyone has any urgent advice please feel free to call me (480) 695-0402. I would like to have the wire tested, but again they have to know what to test for. I know its neither lead or zinc. Looking into PVC/vinyl products I found a couple of chemicals that can cause some of the problems, but depending on how they make it, including how they get the stuff to stick the list of chemicals is abundent. I called the vet school at U of A, but the only thing that Doc was good for was getting on my nerves. And the problem is, is that it may not be the wire. Thanks for everyones time. Kitty

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#643922 - 09/25/08 12:57 PM Re: Possible toxins and gliders [Re: Anonymous]
LSardou Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 21060
Loc: Kansas
Kitty, Did you try and clear your cache and cookies. Once you do, shut down and reboot. As far as I know the only conflicting email is with AOL....

If you still have trouble, try and post in "Board Help and Announcements" and Eddie will be along here shortly to help you out.


NOTE: Leaving this here temporarily until we hear back from you so that we know you are able to log on.

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#643937 - 09/25/08 01:16 PM Re: Possible toxins and gliders [Re: LSardou]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
Have the wire tested at your state laboratory to find out what is in it.
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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#643953 - 09/25/08 01:37 PM Re: Possible toxins and gliders [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I don't even know what cookies are. My brother is the computer dude. I'm the medical, ethics and advocacy, and philosophy person who is impatient with computers. Kitty

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#643957 - 09/25/08 01:40 PM Re: Possible toxins and gliders [Re: Anonymous]
Monster
Unregistered


Click on Tools, then Internet Options, then Delete Cookies...

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#643975 - 09/25/08 01:59 PM Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ]
Monster
Unregistered



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#644021 - 09/25/08 02:32 PM Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ]
PixTrix
Unregistered


Thanks for the link, Gina! I did not see this thread.


Jen

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#644059 - 09/25/08 03:20 PM Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ]
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 3398
Loc: Rock Falls, IL, USA
We have always used wire from Klubertanz and it has always been the black PVC coated wire. We have tried other wires and they either don't look good or they don't last as long so we stuck with them. If this is really from the black PVC wire and more than one person has had this happen we need to know right away!!! We were planning on using Riverdale wire again, but will change if this is an issue. We have just recently (within the last three months) built 5 cages for ourselves and friends with this wire and have had no problems. I do know that the plastic does cause an odor for about a month, especially in a closed room. This has always been the case with any PVC wire we have used. We have used Shepards as well and that had the same exact odor. We will go back to using Shepard, but we never did like the quality as well. The wire is not coated as evenly. As far as how long it lasts we do not know. We never had any complaints on those cages either though so maybe we will switch to them until this is figured out and we will be making a call to Richard to see if he has heard anything like this having happened before. We have never used their different colored wires. When we were in business they only had green and we didn't like it much and the blue was not around then. I am really wanting to know what the best thing is to do in this situation. This could or could not be the wire. It could or could not have something to do with where it was stored and someone sprayed for something not thinking and that caused a problem. There are so many variables that it makes it hard to make a good decision on this. I do know that my gliders have been in this wire quite a bit (at my camper) and never had a problem. My friend has cages built out of it and never had a problem. So I am confused as you can see. What do you all think we should do given the situation besides try to find out what happened? What month was this purchased? What was the ship date? Did Klubertanz build the cages and then ship them or did they ship the wire and you built the cages? These are just things that would be helpful for when we talk to Richard. Anyone placing an order right now will be able to choose which type of wire they want us to use as long as we are able to get our hands on it. Now the prices will have to go up if we use Shepards as it is much more expensive with who we go through for some reason. I will look for cheaper options starting now though.
We are just as worried about this as everyone else as we would rather go out of business then to make cages that would harm the gliders.
_________________________
Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics


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