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#648033 - 10/01/08 12:37 AM Investigating Raw
PocketPrincess Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/28/07
Posts: 628
Loc: Austin, Tx
We feed our dogs, cats, ferrets, lizards raw, so why not gliders? Let's not bash, but have a discussion on the benefits and risks of a natural diet for Sugar Gliders.

One thing people worry about with raw feeding is the risk of "food poisoning" or the introduction of salmonella and e coli bacteria into a glider's system. With the reading I have been doing, a glider's digestion time is approx. 2 hours, same as dogs and cats, where as a human has a 24 hour digestive period. It takes 20 hours for both the e coli and salmonella strains to fully culture to levels that are recognizable and not destroyed by stomach acid. That is why when people get food poisoning, they feel it the next day. The bacteria needs that time to culture.

Calcium: with the introduction of bones into the diet of sugar gliders, it would aid in the minerals they need. Why are we giving artificial calcium supplements to a wild animal?

Domestication: some will say that sugar gliders are born and raised on a processed diet and thrive that way. Sugar Gliders have only been in the pet industry for about 15 years or so. Dogs and cats are millenniums ahead of the sugar glider in terms of domestication and thrive on a solely raw food diet.

Does anyone have input/questions/concerns? This is something I would really like to research and have started Bella on a raw food diet.

She has been on it for 3 weeks now and just loves all of her foods and cleans her wings! I will introduce bee pollen, acacia gum, and euc as soon as I get them in and have started to only use fruits that would be found in Australia.
_________________________
Mommy to:
One Skin Kid: Emily Kathryn born 07-23-07
A German Shepherd and Pink Poodle: Wrangler and Flirt
1 Rat: Lizzy Borden
16 Suggies: Bella, Edward, Jasper, Emmett, Rosalie, Alice, and Renesme, Liberty, Justice, America, and Glenn, Hope, Tony, Abby, Ziva, and Jethro


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#648037 - 10/01/08 12:43 AM Re: Investigating Raw [Re: PocketPrincess]
ORsuggiemomma Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 03/18/08
Posts: 2071
Loc: home
this is the diet I am feeding now.

and they all LOVE it. and are happy and healthy laugh
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Mother to~ mloveNathan(5) and mloveDrea(3)
and slave to 4 perfect sugar gliders:glider:
Lightning
Mater
Trinity
Eilonwy

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#648041 - 10/01/08 12:48 AM Re: Investigating Raw [Re: ORsuggiemomma]
PocketPrincess Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/28/07
Posts: 628
Loc: Austin, Tx
But, that is cooked meats. Cooking foods destroys the fat molecules and alters protein levels in raw meat. One thing I live by for my dog is: wolves don't make campfires. That is why I need more information on fully raw foods for gliders.

That diet looks good other than the cooked chicken! And, I want to go to strictly Australian fruits and veggies.
_________________________
Mommy to:
One Skin Kid: Emily Kathryn born 07-23-07
A German Shepherd and Pink Poodle: Wrangler and Flirt
1 Rat: Lizzy Borden
16 Suggies: Bella, Edward, Jasper, Emmett, Rosalie, Alice, and Renesme, Liberty, Justice, America, and Glenn, Hope, Tony, Abby, Ziva, and Jethro


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#648044 - 10/01/08 12:49 AM Re: Investigating Raw [Re: ORsuggiemomma]
7glider7
Unregistered


I am all in support of a natural diet, but I'm not sure your statements about E.coli make sense. Sorry if that is off topic. But stomach acid is stomach acid, it would destroy bacteria as soon as it entered the stomach regardless of total time food spends in the digestive tract, so unless gliders' stomachs are substantially less acidic (not sure if anyone knows), there's no reason they'd be less susceptible to E. coli.

That said, safely preparing and carefully washing food and properly refrigerating is really the best defense against E. coli and salmonella. I wouldn't be opposed to feeding raw food for these reasons and I'm not opposed to eating it myself, as long as I'm confident it's been safely stored! But...where the problem lies is that I don't know about you, but I leave my glider food out all night. If they were going to eat a raw egg or raw chicken straight away as a treat, that's one thing, but sitting out all night is another.

I incorporate eucalyptus bee pollen and acacia gum into my gliders' diet and enrichment. I think using more natural ingredients is a great idea.

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#648045 - 10/01/08 12:49 AM Re: Investigating Raw [Re: PocketPrincess]
ORsuggiemomma Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 03/18/08
Posts: 2071
Loc: home
lol. I know what ya mean. and good luck! I won't feed raw meats to my guys. too scared something would happen! Good luck in your research laugh
_________________________
Wifey to heart Frankstone heart
Mother to~ mloveNathan(5) and mloveDrea(3)
and slave to 4 perfect sugar gliders:glider:
Lightning
Mater
Trinity
Eilonwy

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#648049 - 10/01/08 12:54 AM Re: Investigating Raw [Re: ORsuggiemomma]
PocketPrincess Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/28/07
Posts: 628
Loc: Austin, Tx
It probably has to do with how long it sits in the digestive tract including the intestines? I need more research on E Coli strands and salmonella poisoning.

I only give her raw meats at the beginning of the night and she usually takes only 15-20 minutes tops to eat the meat off of a chicken wing. She eats a half a gizzard or liver every third night, and that just takes minutes (added for vitamins and iron). She then will gnaw on the bones for about another half an hour. Then, I remove the raw meat and sanitize her food bowl.

Raw fruits and veggies can be left out all night.
_________________________
Mommy to:
One Skin Kid: Emily Kathryn born 07-23-07
A German Shepherd and Pink Poodle: Wrangler and Flirt
1 Rat: Lizzy Borden
16 Suggies: Bella, Edward, Jasper, Emmett, Rosalie, Alice, and Renesme, Liberty, Justice, America, and Glenn, Hope, Tony, Abby, Ziva, and Jethro


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#648364 - 10/01/08 03:04 PM Re: Investigating Raw [Re: PocketPrincess]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
Some people feed baby chicks and pinkies/fuzzies, which would be raw meats. But I would maintain the insects too, because while they will eat some meat in the wild, they are still considered insectivores.
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#648377 - 10/01/08 03:18 PM Re: Investigating Raw [Re: PocketPrincess]
Celeste
Unregistered


I see where your coming from. But, how much is too much meat? Day to day I'd have no idea how much to give them of what meat. I guess thats just something that needs to be experimented on and figured out.

I still wouldnt do a totally raw diet for mine, I feel they need things besides meat. They arnt JUST carnivores, like a cat would be.

I wouldnt mind trying this though, too see how they like the raw food. I think it could actually be very good for them.

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#648387 - 10/01/08 03:31 PM Re: Investigating Raw [Re: ]
Marz Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 708
Loc: Melbourne Australia
You might be interested to know that is a meat mix here in Australia using raw meat that some wildlife keepers make up and feed to their gliders and some possums as part of their diet.

Other people here just buy the eco-pet loaf but this is cooked meat as far as I am aware. My gliders hated the eco-pet so haven't bought that in a long time.

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#648389 - 10/01/08 03:33 PM Re: Investigating Raw [Re: Marz]
Monster
Unregistered


I'd say we would be interested to know - would you share please *batting eyelashes*

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#648409 - 10/01/08 04:10 PM Re: Investigating Raw [Re: ]
PocketPrincess Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/28/07
Posts: 628
Loc: Austin, Tx
She doesn't just get meat. That's not a big part of her food. She also has mango, papaya, nectar, green beans, etc. I am looking into bee pollen, euc, and Australian acacia. She does get meal worms as snacks and for bonding treats.

I want to know about that mix, too! It sounds interesting!
_________________________
Mommy to:
One Skin Kid: Emily Kathryn born 07-23-07
A German Shepherd and Pink Poodle: Wrangler and Flirt
1 Rat: Lizzy Borden
16 Suggies: Bella, Edward, Jasper, Emmett, Rosalie, Alice, and Renesme, Liberty, Justice, America, and Glenn, Hope, Tony, Abby, Ziva, and Jethro


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#648416 - 10/01/08 04:27 PM Re: Investigating Raw [Re: PocketPrincess]
ORsuggiemomma Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 03/18/08
Posts: 2071
Loc: home
that mix has me interested too smile would love to hear more about that. laugh
_________________________
Wifey to heart Frankstone heart
Mother to~ mloveNathan(5) and mloveDrea(3)
and slave to 4 perfect sugar gliders:glider:
Lightning
Mater
Trinity
Eilonwy

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#648443 - 10/01/08 05:00 PM Re: Investigating Raw [Re: PocketPrincess]
Brittney
Unregistered


One thing that came to mind first is the quality of the meat. If I were to ever try something like you are, I would only buy high quality organic meat from somewhere like Wild Oats or the like. Wow now I'm sounding "granola"! smile If you've ever looked into how farm animals are raised, fed, kept and killed you know where I'm coming from. This would be good quality, would not really be that expensive as they don't eat much at a time (I mean 4 oz of meat would last forever!), and it would greatly reduce the risk of bacteria and ecoli as from what I've gathered during my own personal dietary research, a lot of contamination is reduced with cleaner and more "natural" farm habitat, as well as a clean slaughter. Wild Oats, according to their policies all of which I've read, regulates all of those things closely.
I personally wouldn't freeze the meat, either (didn't see if you had stated whether or not you did). Also, are you feeding any and all meat? Various? Just chicken? Just red? You might expand your meat selection from just chicken or beef to thinks like lamb, bison, etc depending on what may best nutritionally balance your diet.

Another thing to consider is just that fruits and veggies here, as with EVERY food, is nutritionally different than what's in Australia. You may consider looking into nutritional value differences of foods from Australia vs the US. Not sure if there's anything on that. I've just heard since the whole environment/soil/etc. is different there the foods have different balances depending on where it's from. Same with meat. Is Australian meat different nutritionally? Are they fed foods that are different nutritionally? dunno

I like the idea and encourage you to (carefully) pursue it since you seem to be so interested and thorough in research. I personally think it's a really bad idea to get experimental with suggie diets unless you're going to put forth a lot of effort to research, which it sounds like you are doing! Once you get your diet all figured out completely, I would ask a suggie experienced vet or two what they think. I know many people love their vet, but of course mine is the BEST smile . I go to a vet that has TONS of suggie experience and actually used to be the vet for our zoo. If you ever want to call and ask her I'm sure she'd be more than happy to give you her opinion. You might even consider trying to contact an Australian vet - perhaps by email since it'd cost a ton to just call around LOL!

Glad to hear you feed the meat, pull the dish and clean, then put back in the cage. When I first read this the first picture that came to mind was that my suggie's dishes are already gross in the morning and would be SUPER gross with old, warm meat in there. What a breeding grounds for disease and bugs... ! smile

Good luck - keep us posted!

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#648447 - 10/01/08 05:09 PM Re: Investigating Raw [Re: ]
ORsuggiemomma Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 03/18/08
Posts: 2071
Loc: home
Originally Posted By: Brittney


Another thing to consider is just that fruits and veggies here, as with EVERY food, is nutritionally different than what's in Australia. You may consider looking into nutritional value differences of foods from Australia vs the US. Not sure if there's anything on that. I've just heard since the whole environment/soil/etc. is different there the foods have different balances depending on where it's from. Same with meat. Is Australian meat different nutritionally? Are they fed foods that are different nutritionally? dunno

that is true. my husband was in Australia for a yr. and a half when he was in the marines, and that is 100% true. he was had to watch what he ate there, as he was on weight restriction. haha. he should be on weight restriction at home too. sorry, off topic. laugh
_________________________
Wifey to heart Frankstone heart
Mother to~ mloveNathan(5) and mloveDrea(3)
and slave to 4 perfect sugar gliders:glider:
Lightning
Mater
Trinity
Eilonwy

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#648453 - 10/01/08 05:15 PM Re: Investigating Raw [Re: ORsuggiemomma]
konotashi Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 4061
Loc: Mesa, AZ
That sounds very interesting, but it also sounds like it'd be expensive.

I would also like to say, that feeding some raw chicken to ferrets without worrying about salmonella is because they typically diegest their food within four hours. I tell that to people, and they look at my like I'm trying to kill them because they figure that if it's bad for us, then it's bad for all other animals. shakehead
_________________________
~Marissa~

How-to Critter Creations

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#648545 - 10/01/08 07:53 PM Re: Investigating Raw [Re: konotashi]
PocketPrincess Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/28/07
Posts: 628
Loc: Austin, Tx
I introduced her to chicken, quail and pheasant so far (they are all hormonal, antibiotic free and grain fed). There is a local butcher with buffalo that I might try.

With how much they eat, it hasn't turned out bad at all in the expense department. I spend maybe $20- $30 a month on glider food compared to the $250- $300 a month for the dog's raw diet!
_________________________
Mommy to:
One Skin Kid: Emily Kathryn born 07-23-07
A German Shepherd and Pink Poodle: Wrangler and Flirt
1 Rat: Lizzy Borden
16 Suggies: Bella, Edward, Jasper, Emmett, Rosalie, Alice, and Renesme, Liberty, Justice, America, and Glenn, Hope, Tony, Abby, Ziva, and Jethro


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#648564 - 10/01/08 08:26 PM Re: Investigating Raw [Re: PocketPrincess]
happygypsymoth Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 07/24/08
Posts: 409
Loc: Navarre, Florida
Originally Posted By: PocketPrincess
I am looking into bee pollen, euc, and Australian acacia.


I'm looking for Australian Acacia also. Have not been able to find any. Please let us know if you find it.
_________________________
Our pack of 14:
2 Humans,5 Chihuahuas,7 Suggies(the Suggies definately rule!)
RIP Grace 12/12/12 Harmony 1/17/13 Turbo & Everest 2014
Forever Gliding High, together!

Save a Kid! Close the Lid!
And Check your Pouches Daily!

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#648584 - 10/01/08 09:02 PM Re: Investigating Raw [Re: happygypsymoth]
GoGoGliders
Unregistered


OT but I volunteered at an animal hospice and ALL the animals there were fed a raw diet.....they had a significant reduction in the diabetes and glaucoma and an overall improvement in health (and these were sick and dying animals)....

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#650877 - 10/05/08 11:20 AM Re: Investigating Raw [Re: PocketPrincess]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16745
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Just wanted to give a heads up in case nobody else seen it...

There was just a news thing on Fox that they are claiming there is a outbreak of salmonella from frozen chicken going around.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#650883 - 10/05/08 11:45 AM Re: Investigating Raw [Re: Srlb]
Sherri Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/06
Posts: 3826
Loc: Big Sandy TN
I heard that was because people thought that the breaded chicken was already cooked. They didnt read the instructions on the package or read that it wasnt fully cooked. And that it really didnt have anything to do with the chicken having salmonella. It was the people that didnt prepare it right.
_________________________
sherri

Forever home to a wide variety of animals, domestic, farm and exotic.
My passion is my little suggie sweethearts! 731-441-9814


http://www.newbysglidernook.com/index.html

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#650914 - 10/05/08 01:05 PM Re: Investigating Raw [Re: Sherri]
PocketPrincess Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/28/07
Posts: 628
Loc: Austin, Tx
I found a local farm and bought 10 whole chickens and a whole cow (for my dog) and put it in the deep freezer because of stuff like this! If you can find a local farmer, that is the best bet for your animals and for yourself!
_________________________
Mommy to:
One Skin Kid: Emily Kathryn born 07-23-07
A German Shepherd and Pink Poodle: Wrangler and Flirt
1 Rat: Lizzy Borden
16 Suggies: Bella, Edward, Jasper, Emmett, Rosalie, Alice, and Renesme, Liberty, Justice, America, and Glenn, Hope, Tony, Abby, Ziva, and Jethro


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