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#650933 - 10/05/08 02:13 PM Things That can go Wrong Breeding
peace
Unregistered


Post the info for new comers please.

Thing that can and DO go wrong when breeding Sugar Gliders.

Thank you.

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#650939 - 10/05/08 02:20 PM Re: Things That can go Wrong Breeding [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
I'd say first concern is...

Mating wounds.

These can happen even with same sex pairs or neutered male/female pairs but are most common with breeding pairs. These happen when one glider gets overly dominant with another.

When mating, the male will bite down on the neck of the female to pin her down. If the female resists, it can lead to a nasty wound. There have been gliders ripped open from one shoulder to the other. These wounds can become infected and can cause death for the injured gliders.

When mating type wounds happen, the injured glider has to be seperated from all other gliders so it can heal. This generally takes a month or longer. If the female is pregnant, reintroductions can't always be done until AFTER the joeys are weened, leaving mom to raise the joey alone.

vet care is needed as well as antibiotics for infection or prevention of infection.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#650943 - 10/05/08 02:24 PM Re: Things That can go Wrong Breeding [Re: Dancing]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Pulled joeys.

This is where there are joeys in pouch but for some reason or another, the mom decides to not be a mom at that time and she will "pull" the joeys. This can be because of stress, improper diet, something wrong with the joey that mom detects or mom just doesn't want to be a mom. Males can also pull the joeys from mom though I personally believe this is rare.

In breeding groups, other females might also "pull" the joey from the pregnant female. Perhaps out of jealousy?
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#650947 - 10/05/08 02:26 PM Re: Things That can go Wrong Breeding [Re: Dancing]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Rejecting joeys.

This can happen from first day oop until weened age. Sometimes it is because the joey has some birth defect that we might not be able to see.

It can also happen if mom is not producing enough milk because of improper diet, stress or illness such as a pouch infection. Or again, if mom just doesn't want to be a mom.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#650950 - 10/05/08 02:29 PM Re: Things That can go Wrong Breeding [Re: Dancing]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Canabalized joeys.

This can happen for the same reasons as rejection. Only this is harder to accept. Canabalization also can happen if the joey dies and the natural instincts to keep the nest clean (to reduce the risk of attracting preditors) kicks in.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#650952 - 10/05/08 02:35 PM Re: Things That can go Wrong Breeding [Re: Dancing]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Rejected joeys can often be hand raised but this is very difficult and is not always successful. Depending on the age of the joey at time of rejection, the joey may need round the clock care with feedings as often as every 1 to 2 hours.

Joeys must be kept warm and must be stimulated to go potty.
Weight should be monitored to insure the joey is gaining weight.

Rejected joeys should not be used for future breeding as there is no way to know for sure WHY they were rejected.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#650968 - 10/05/08 03:07 PM Re: Things That can go Wrong Breeding [Re: Dancing]
Mio
Unregistered


Teresa's covered the main issues... but allow me to add something on the human side. Assumptions. When Todd first came OOP, I slowly began holding him each day in increasing amounts to tame him. But then I became sick. After a week of being too scared of getting him sick to hold him, I come back, and he's a crabby little bugger. You can't assume that just because the parents are tame, the babies will be, too. They have to be handled a bit every day in order to create loving, stable joeys that are able to thrive in a home environment. Otherwise, you'll have a time on your hands trying to tame or sell your wild joeys. They aren't like most puppies, who are pretty much used to humans the day they are born. wink They're still wild animals, and if not handled... they'll stay that way.

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#650971 - 10/05/08 03:13 PM Re: Things That can go Wrong Breeding [Re: ]
Trigger Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 3970
Loc: Spring, Texas
Unexpected death

I have read here of people having everything going great and all of a sudden out of nowhere for no forseeable reason the joey dies weeks after being OOP.
_________________________
-(`v)-MO MONEY!-(`v)-
kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
www.jensfuzzyfriends.com

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#650974 - 10/05/08 03:15 PM Re: Things That can go Wrong Breeding [Re: Trigger]
Trigger Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 3970
Loc: Spring, Texas
Loss of female

Not long ago here one of the member's momma glider died shortly after her joeys were OOP. Maybe she was sick before or maybe the strain of the pregnancy was too much.
_________________________
-(`v)-MO MONEY!-(`v)-
kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
www.jensfuzzyfriends.com

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#650976 - 10/05/08 03:17 PM Re: Things That can go Wrong Breeding [Re: Trigger]
Trigger Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 3970
Loc: Spring, Texas
Parent gliders behavior changes

I have heard of some breeders sweetest, most beloved pet completely changing when they had joeys. It is possible to lose the wonderful bond you shared by breeding.
_________________________
-(`v)-MO MONEY!-(`v)-
kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
www.jensfuzzyfriends.com

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#650998 - 10/05/08 03:53 PM Re: Things That can go Wrong Breeding [Re: Trigger]
Janie Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 03/03/08
Posts: 605
Loc: MS
Nutrition issues too

Even feeding an approved diet isnt a sure thing,, I feed HPW and my nursing mom wasnt getting enough calcium. My vet told me if I wasnt so in tune with my girl's behavior and brought her to him so quickly I could have lost her joeys and possibly her... has made me rethink if I really want her to have more joeys,,,,, I was a wreck and my little family all pulled thru fine in the end.
_________________________
slave to 9 cages of adorable suggies
:grey: :wfb: :rtmo: :leu: :wt:
http://www.suggierealm.com

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#651161 - 10/05/08 09:09 PM Re: Things That can go Wrong Breeding [Re: Janie]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16733
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
I feed HPW and my nursing mom wasnt getting enough calcium.


How long have you been feeding HPW?? There is actually plenty of calcium in it.

What did you feed prior? Also how old is your female?

Nutrition is DEFINITELY high up on the list when it comes to breeding and having happy healthy joeys and keeping mom in tip top shape.

That is why many say to increase the protein...just keep in mind you want to increase the good proteins, such as eggs.

This will also help mom with energy and milk supply. thumb
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#651197 - 10/05/08 09:59 PM Re: Things That can go Wrong Breeding [Re: Srlb]
Janie Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 03/03/08
Posts: 605
Loc: MS
I have been feeding HPW to all my gliders for about 7 months now (as soon as I knew she had joeys I made her the nursing batch recipe)...before that I fed the suncoast diet. You are right,,, my vet said also her diet was perfect and the calcium was where it should be,,, however he had seen rare cases before like mine,,, showing calcium deficiency,,,, He gave me the prescription syrup and I added it to just her dinners and she was fine,,, no more tremors/shivers and I dont need to do it anymore now that her joeys are not nursing alot. She is 10 months old and her joeys are 6 weeks OOP,,, To be safe she has had several vet check ups ,,, I wanted to hand feed the joeys,,, I was so scared of losing her,, but the vet told me not to,,, glad I listened to him,,, she did a much better job then I could have.

I was also told to give her extra protein by some nice people here who responded when I was posting about her issues,,, I did that and am STILL VERY GRATEFUL to everyone who helped and supported us.

Now I have healthy parents and 2 beautiful joeys =) but it certainly wasnt as easy as I thought it would be.....
_________________________
slave to 9 cages of adorable suggies
:grey: :wfb: :rtmo: :leu: :wt:
http://www.suggierealm.com

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#651326 - 10/06/08 04:34 AM Re: Things That can go Wrong Breeding [Re: Janie]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Just two things to add to the list others have going here...

Inability to find good FOREVER homes for the joeys.
Finding a permanent, loving companion for your joeys once they come out of pouch can be very stressful and difficult. Even the best screening of potential adopters can still end up with a joey going to a home and then getting rehomed in a year or two which is very hard on the glider frown Sadly, many, many gliders are ending up in rescues needing to be rehomed.

Inbreeding
Sadly, many people do not realize how quickly the joeys can become sexually mature and leave them with the parents for too long. This can lead to inbreeding between mother/sons and father/daughters frown
Joeys need to be separated from their parents by the time they are 3 months out of pouch OR any males (father/sons) need to be neutered by that time.
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#651450 - 10/06/08 09:27 AM Re: Things That can go Wrong Breeding [Re: sugarglidersuz]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
Overbreeding - females can go into heat quickly after joeys coming OOP (usually about 2 weeks). This can mean that she will have to either raise 2-4 joeys together at a time, or will potentially pull/reject one or more of the joeys (and you may never know if it is the little ones). Taking care of just 1 or 2 joeys at a time is very stressful on a female's system, taking care of litter on top of litter, often over and over is something to be concerned about. Just because they can breed all throughout the year in captivity, does not mean they should, or that it is healthy for them.
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#651582 - 10/06/08 01:09 PM Re: Things That can go Wrong Breeding [Re: sugarlope]
Leyna
Unregistered


Other injuries... I recently had 2 12 week old babies that were ready to go to their new home get in a fight. One ended up loosing a hand. From a financial perspective, I ended up having to pay over $300 in vet bills and I won't ever be able to sell these gliders. So, no only did I have an unexpected vet expense, I now have to spend more money on a new cage, supplies, etc... Raise gliders is not a cheap business if done right.

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#651598 - 10/06/08 01:40 PM Re: Things That can go Wrong Breeding [Re: ]
pappy1264 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 11015
Loc: MA
Leyna, I am very sorry about these two. I couldn't do it.
_________________________
Timmy, Gidget(RIP), Bandit, Petey(RIP), Phoebe, Jake (RIP) Piper(RIP), Pru(RIP), Paige, Cole, Molly(RIP), Oliver, Wyatt, Roo(RIP), Romeo, Pennie, Mandy(RIP), Madison, Garth, Kikipoo, Stasia, Bella, Petunia(RIP), Helen, Sydney, Kizzy and Sweet Pea's mom,
Mary

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#651659 - 10/06/08 03:17 PM Re: Things That can go Wrong Breeding [Re: pappy1264]
Brittney
Unregistered


I wanted to add, also, that even though I don't breed and personally never will, I found that it's probably not hard to get into this situation:

Male and female pair have joeys. Let's just say a boy and a girl. Time comes and goes - say you don't find them a home right away. Say you hit 12 weeks and still, no home. Well, none of the males should be mating with the females other than the original pair (parents), so brother needs his own cage, sister needs her own cage, and it can likely stress them out to all be in the same room esp with more than one male that's not fixed so they may need their own rooms, too. I don't know about you, but that RIGHT THERE is a HUGE problem for me. Too small an apartment, only two cages and I don't want to be cleaning that many cages personally. Plus I don't know if I have enough cage sets and toys - I'd likely be either buying more or doing suggie laundry once a week. Now, you can fix brother and put him with sister, but then you have a bonded pair you really shouldn't split, not to mention the additional cost/stress/work to fix him. Can you sell a pair?? A non-mating pair? Ok, so say you don't fix him. Sister and brother are alone until you can find a home - if and when. Can you spend time with EACH cage every day? Oh, look at that, there's more joey's already born or IP. Now you better "get rid" of sister and brother asap to make room. Can you still find a GOOD home, or are you striving just to find homes?? Ok, so say you don't pull sister and brother fast enough and one of the females, mom or sister, ends up pregnant. You don't know if this baby is inbred or not, really. A responsible owner shouldn't sell this baby at all, especially without disclosing and it's likely no one will buy a glider they know is/may be inbred. Are you prepared to keep this glider? And sepparate it from your breeding pair?

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#651665 - 10/06/08 03:26 PM Re: Things That can go Wrong Breeding [Re: ]
Monster
Unregistered


Good point Brittney, a lot of people aren't aware how fast things can spin out of control, even if you have NO health issues AT ALL!

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