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#664360 - 10/29/08 12:44 PM Shouldn't rejected joeys be non breeders???
Laurens_Babies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3570
Loc: Kansas City, MO
Ok I have always been told and just took it to heart that a rejected joey, rejected for any reason should be consitered automatically non breeders. But I have seen the occasional people sell joeys lately that have been rejected and listed with the possiblitity of being sold as breeders. I'm not trying to point fingers at those people but I just wanted to clear up this topic for myself.
Also what about joeys that need to be supplement fed?
_________________________
~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*

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#664362 - 10/29/08 12:46 PM Re: Shouldn't rejected joeys be non breeders??? [Re: Laurens_Babies]
Monster
Unregistered


It seems to be a topic that many people feel differently about.

I know of a few that are in reputable breeding programs right now with no problems, but I personally would probably not do it.

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#664367 - 10/29/08 12:50 PM Re: Shouldn't rejected joeys be non breeders??? [Re: Laurens_Babies]
Gossamer Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/22/06
Posts: 1667
Loc: Long Island, NY
I personally don't think its a good idea. Yes, a joey can be rejected because the parents just don't make good parents, but they could also be rejected because they have some defect that my take it's time showing up. There isn't really a way to tell for sure, so I it shouldn't be chanced - IMO.
_________________________
Jeannine

3 Cats (Spike, Kismet, Honeycat)
1 understanding Husband
1 WFB Neutered Glider boy - Grissom! (oop 8/7/06) :wfb:
1 BB Glider girl- Willows! (oop 1/7/07) :bb:

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#664373 - 10/29/08 12:55 PM Re: Shouldn't rejected joeys be non breeders??? [Re: Gossamer]
Laurens_Babies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3570
Loc: Kansas City, MO
The whole point is you have NO reason at all to know why a joey is rejected.

Then just curious what about if mom dies and the joeys have to be hand raised?? If its proven that mom died of causes that couldn't be passed on to the joeys what about then?? I just always assumed that some hand raised joeys were a lil "different". Without mom and dad to have taught them all normal glider behavior, leaves them a lil lost.
_________________________
~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*

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#664374 - 10/29/08 12:57 PM Re: Shouldn't rejected joeys be non breeders??? [Re: Gossamer]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
I don't really know.

I guess I feel that the topic falls into the "I've got bigger things to worry about" category. If someone breeds a glider who was rejected as a joey and it works out for them ... great! If it doesn't, not so great - but at least we would be getting some actual data to backup one position or the other - without having to just go on opinion and theory.

There are so many problems in the glider world! I have to focus on the bigger ones! Gliders being fed cat food and apple slices ... mill breeders ... gliders being kept in hamster cages ...

I just can't take on the problems of loved and well-cared for gliders who maybe shouldn't be bred, or maybe should, or maybe ... who knows!
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#664377 - 10/29/08 01:01 PM Re: Shouldn't rejected joeys be non breeders??? [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Laurens_Babies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3570
Loc: Kansas City, MO
Sorry you feel that way Alden, obviously I thought it was important because I asked the question.
_________________________
~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*

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#664380 - 10/29/08 01:03 PM Re: Shouldn't rejected joeys be non breeders??? [Re: Laurens_Babies]
Monster
Unregistered


I think this is why there are so many different thoughts about ths. Because there are also so many different reasons a joey could be rejected. It could be poor milk production, birth defect, poor parenting, maturity, illness, and on and on and on. And not all of those would necessarily make the joey an unfit parent.

For example: If you had a mother who was not producing enough milk, so you had to supplement feed, or even pull the joeys. Just because she wasn't producing enough milk doesn't necessarily mean there was something wrong with her. It could have been your error, you could have been feeding her improperly, or she could have had more joeys drop into pouch immediatly after the others were OOP so her body was using up its energy making two different milk suppies. This would be more of an environmental factor, not a physical factor nor anything that would be passed to the joeys. Now the question still remains if the joey's long term health is compromised by being bottle/syringe fed instead of receiving mother's milk with all the colostrum & antibodies it contains...

But then there are many many babies raised on formula instead of breast milk...

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#664386 - 10/29/08 01:14 PM Re: Shouldn't rejected joeys be non breeders??? [Re: Laurens_Babies]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
That's why I used "I" statements. I was stating my opinion.

Yours is clearly different.

I was offering a different perspective. That's all.
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#664391 - 10/29/08 01:18 PM Re: Shouldn't rejected joeys be non breeders??? [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Laurens_Babies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3570
Loc: Kansas City, MO
I think if a yes be it very spoiled joey had something wrong with them that they are passing onto other offspring its everyones problem. Don't rejected joeys tend to have a shorter lifespan as a whole anyway. Why is that again?


Edited by Laurens_Babies (10/29/08 01:23 PM)
_________________________
~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*

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#664398 - 10/29/08 01:23 PM Re: Shouldn't rejected joeys be non breeders??? [Re: Laurens_Babies]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Originally Posted By: Laurens_Babies
Rejected joeys tend to have a shorter lifespan as a whole than others.

I've seen that stated ... and I thought recently someone was actually collecting data. Was it Cindy? I would love some hard data on this - because although I've read claims about this or that, I'm not aware of anyone coming forward and saying "Yes, this is true, because this is my experience." Is it like many other things ... someone says it, and then it is assumed to be true, and then after a while it becomes law?

That's why I mentioned I'd love to have the data collected.
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#664401 - 10/29/08 01:27 PM Re: Shouldn't rejected joeys be non breeders??? [Re: ValkyrieMome]
jannee66 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 3346
Loc: Mobile,Alabama
Originally Posted By: Laurens_Babies
Sorry you feel that way Alden, obviously I thought it was important because I asked the question.

Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
That's why I used "I" statements. I was stating my opinion.

Yours is clearly different.

I was offering a different perspective. That's all.


You two crack me up!!!! I can see the heart
_________________________
wave Jannie

I heart my Sweet Spellbinding Sugar :glider:s

Glider Kisses
Pouches and Cage Sets




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#664404 - 10/29/08 01:29 PM Re: Shouldn't rejected joeys be non breeders??? [Re: jannee66]
Laurens_Babies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3570
Loc: Kansas City, MO
I heart you Alden!!! Even when I wanna slap ya!!! I know she feels the same.
_________________________
~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*

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#664406 - 10/29/08 01:30 PM Re: Shouldn't rejected joeys be non breeders??? [Re: Laurens_Babies]
Rhapsody
Unregistered


This can be a hard thing to decide with out actual proof because no one really know what kind of parent a rejected or supplemented joey will turn out to be... just like in people that are adopted or bottle feed,no one can honestly say they will be a bad parent just because they were not naturally feed from mom.

Therefore, I would say this decision should be left up to the new owner... and yes, some times one will have to follow through with breeding several times to see if the glider makes a good parent or not.

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#664407 - 10/29/08 01:31 PM Re: Shouldn't rejected joeys be non breeders??? [Re: jannee66]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Thanks, Jannie - I do have love for that little spoiled brat! Lauren gets her ideas in her head, and heaven forbid I don't agree. But then, I suppose I'm the same way, and I'm sure she just rolls her eyes about my tangent/rant-du-jour! Pats me on the head and says, "Go away now, Alden ..."

I'm actually not rolling my eyes here ... I think it is an interesting question, and I'd just like more info!
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#664409 - 10/29/08 01:31 PM Re: Shouldn't rejected joeys be non breeders??? [Re: ValkyrieMome]
partyofsix
Unregistered


I also thought that if you bred a rejected joey you will have a higher chance of them rejecting their joeys because they weren't really taught how to be a mother. dunno I think I read that somewhere once.

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#664578 - 10/29/08 07:14 PM Re: Shouldn't rejected joeys be non breeders??? [Re: ]
Laurens_Babies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3570
Loc: Kansas City, MO
bumping up to get our night time members opinions too laugh
_________________________
~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*

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#664588 - 10/29/08 07:38 PM Re: Shouldn't rejected joeys be non breeders??? [Re: Laurens_Babies]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Okay, here's my two cents worth...

Some statements have been made about the joey "not learning to be a glider" or "how to be a mother" if it's been hand-raised... I have two hand-raised gliders in my home that definitely know HOW to be a glider. Now, whether they know how to be mothers or not dunno That I can't answer, but they definitely know, through instinct, how to be gliders thumb

Another statement was made that hand-raised joeys don't live as long... Hmmm... personally, I think that's a myth, not a fact. The aforementioned gliders are:
Mareki - oop 2/14/03 (now almost 5 years oop)
Allira - oop 7/15/04 (now over 4 years oop)
Add to that this data of joeys that were hand-raised by me and are still alive and well in friends' homes:
Little Cricky - oop 1/10/04 (almost 5 years oop)
Sugar - oop 3/25/04 (almost 5 years oop)

These ages of MY hand-raised joeys, alone, lead me to ask where does the "fact" that hand-raised joeys don't live as long come from? dunno I don't think it's a "fact" at all - just a myth frown

Now, am I saying that rejected/hand-raised joeys should be allowed to breed? No, I'm not, but I'm saying that assumptions can't be made and each joey needs to be evaluated individually - a blanket statement really shouldn't be made, in my opinion. I don't think that just because a joey has been hand-raised it should automatically be assumed that it shouldn't be allowed to breed. It really depends on the reasons why the joey was hand-raised to begin with.

IF someone attempts to breed a hand-raised joey and then notes that joeys are being rejected or are not surviving to come out of pouch, then the breeder needs to be responsible and take that glider out of their breeding program. That is what I did with my Allira when she consistently lost litters of joeys before they came out of pouch. Should I have attempted to breed her to begin with? Some of you will say "no", but the fact is that I did and when I realized that she was not going to be successful, I had her mate neutered immediately. That was breeder responsibility on my part...
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#664590 - 10/29/08 07:44 PM Re: Shouldn't rejected joeys be non breeders??? [Re: sugarglidersuz]
Laurens_Babies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3570
Loc: Kansas City, MO
Thank you Suz!!! hug2

In regards to ages.. What I have been told is that rejected joeys .. 8 years average, where as the standard is like 12-14. Myth?? Would be nice to hear from anyone to say yes or no in their experience.


Edited by Laurens_Babies (10/29/08 07:44 PM)
_________________________
~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*

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#664593 - 10/29/08 07:46 PM Re: Shouldn't rejected joeys be non breeders??? [Re: Laurens_Babies]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
While captive gliders CAN live 12-14 years in captivity, there truly aren't very many that actually do manage to live that long. I think it would be very interesting to have some real statistics to look at... I wonder if Lucy has any information about it in her Death Database?
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#664812 - 10/30/08 07:06 AM Re: Shouldn't rejected joeys be non breeders??? [Re: sugarglidersuz]
Monster
Unregistered


OT - Is the death database still collecting info?

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#665261 - 10/30/08 08:41 PM Re: Shouldn't rejected joeys be non breeders??? [Re: ]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
That's a good question, Gina... I really don't know dunno
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#665393 - 10/30/08 11:27 PM Re: Shouldn't rejected joeys be non breeders??? [Re: sugarglidersuz]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Three years ago at the SGGA Lucy said the data from her data base at that time gave the average life span for the average glider as six years oop. This was attributed to better diet. I was unable to go the following year due my being ill and this year... Lucy was unable to attend so I do not know if it has changed any.

I would think that instinct would guide a female to be a good mother. As to not being able to nurse her own babies due to lack of production is not the mother's fault.

Dogs and cats... and even humans are fed supplemental formulas and for those that survive do not seem to have health issues.

However, it is important to introduce other babies as soon as possible to a hand fed baby so it learns to be a part of a unit since sugar gliders are highly socialized and form groups and later on a family unit once mature.
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#665470 - 10/31/08 05:05 AM Re: Shouldn't rejected joeys be non breeders??? [Re: Judie]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Thank you for your input and the information about the database, Judie - I remembered her talking about it at the SGGA in Ohio, but couldn't remember the data shakehead
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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