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#667908 - 11/04/08 08:07 PM Breeding LeuXLeu
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
If you have 2 Leus (male and female) and you breed them isn't that fine as long as their lines are spread apart far enough?

I understand that there are only 2 lines in the US (that's what I hear) but genetic wise you can breed animals as long as they are far enough apart isn't that right?

Wouldn't that be OK if they were 10th cousins+ or not even related at all? Even 5th cousins (i hear with humans) are ok

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#667934 - 11/04/08 08:36 PM Re: Breeding LeuXLeu [Re: GliderFun]
Trigger Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 3970
Loc: Spring, Texas
Well it's highly frowned upon in the glider community.
It is my understanding that the lines are not yet spread enough to support leu to leu breedings.

What are the lineages on your leus?
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#667947 - 11/04/08 08:48 PM Re: Breeding LeuXLeu [Re: Trigger]
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
I don't have the female leu's that I was thinking about purchasing. I emailed the person asking about the lineage.

In a human being it's ok to marry and have kids with your 5th cousin but 1-4 can cause genetic issues. It should be similar in the case of other animals right?

When they answer me with the lineage then I will post it but Idk when they will get back to me.

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#667964 - 11/04/08 09:18 PM Re: Breeding LeuXLeu [Re: Trigger]
hollysmom
Unregistered


The leucistic gene is a weak gene. Alot of people agrue that breeding a leu to a leu het is no different, but there acutally is a difference in having the gene being prominant(leucistic coloring) and carrying that gene (Leucistic Heterogeny). There have been chromosome analyses done on other species who carried the leu gene and when they are bred leu x leu, there is a 6 out of 10 chance of deafness. I have been comunicating with genetics professor and its been very educational. Hopefull in the near future I will have enough knowledge to share with others but for now this is as far as I can understand. LOL

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#667972 - 11/04/08 09:28 PM Re: Breeding LeuXLeu [Re: ]
krysKritters Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 04/02/05
Posts: 2664
Loc: Hudson Valley, NY
I always try to explain it this way.... There are 3 leu lines that ALL leus can be traced to. Let's call them Line "A", line "B", & line "C"
If you breed line "A" to line "B" the joeys would be "AB" (are you with me so far???)
Then you could only breed those joeys (from line "AB") to line "C"... making those joeys line "ABC"....
Who would you breed those to?
When you breed leu to leu you are closing the gene pool, making it smaller... what you want to do it is breed to a create a new line... line "D" for example... this will help to WIDEN the gene pool and in the long run strengthen the leu lines...
You really have to think long term....
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#667994 - 11/04/08 10:08 PM Re: Breeding LeuXLeu [Re: krysKritters]
ShyRascal
Unregistered


So breeding a lue to say a 66%? lue het would that be widening or narrowing? or should you breed the leu with another coloring completely?

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#668213 - 11/05/08 10:33 AM Re: Breeding LeuXLeu [Re: ]
krysKritters Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 04/02/05
Posts: 2664
Loc: Hudson Valley, NY
Yes, breeding a leu to a 66% het would be helping to "widen" the gene pool but a another color would be better, "widening" the line even more.
This is why so many breeders are working very hard to breed out the leu line with hets and other colors.

I hope I am explaining good. I know there are many others here that know much more about genetics than I do... anyone else wanna jump in here?
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#668259 - 11/05/08 11:33 AM Re: Breeding LeuXLeu [Re: krysKritters]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
However, if you expect to get leu joeys, each parent has to carry the gene. Meaning both must be atleast hets. (or one het and one leu). Breeding a leu with another color will not produce white babies.
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#668333 - 11/05/08 01:46 PM Re: Breeding LeuXLeu [Re: Dancing]
oakley Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 2305
Loc: Florida, USA
If you are interested in leu joeys, you can breed two 100% leu hets or breed a leu with a 100% leu het.

If you are interested in breeding out the leu line, you can simply pair a leu with a standard grey and ALL of the joeys will be 100% het for leu but look like standard greys.
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#668337 - 11/05/08 01:49 PM Re: Breeding LeuXLeu [Re: Dancing]
Leyna
Unregistered


Quote:
Yes, breeding a leu to a 66% het would be helping to "widen" the gene pool but a another color would be better, "widening" the line even more.


I'm sorry, but I must correct you on that statement. There is NO genetic difference between a leu born to 2 100% hets and a 66% leu het glider, with the exception of color. Proving out a 66% is not outbreeding or widening the gene pool. Personally, I don't think 66% hets should even be bred.

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#668356 - 11/05/08 02:03 PM Re: Breeding LeuXLeu [Re: ]
oakley Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 2305
Loc: Florida, USA
I agree. Please let me help you clarify.

There is NO SUCH THING as a 66% or 33% or any other percent het for leu glider in their actual genotypes.

The only reason people use the percentages is to inform buyers of the CHANCE a glider may have of being heterozygous for the leu gene.


Leyna, you also mentioned "proving out" a glider. This term simply refers to breeding a glider with a chance of being het for leu with a glider that is a leu or a 100% het for leu and waiting for leucistic joeys to show up. If the pair produces a leu joey, than the glider is "proven" 100% het.

HTH thumb
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#668433 - 11/05/08 03:27 PM Re: Breeding LeuXLeu [Re: oakley]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Hmmmm. The correct discription of a lesser Het should be written as Possible plus percentage Het.

By saying Possible plus the percentage gives the possibility or chance of being a 100% Het according to the Pundent Square. The greater the Possibility the higher the chances of being able to Prove out a Possible Het.

This is why one pays more for a Possible 66% Het over a Possible 25% Het. The Possible 66% Hets chances of being a carrier for color will prove out to be a 100% Het more often than a Possible 25% Het.

Thus.... to a breeder it is "very important" to know the Correct Possible Percentage of Possible Hets as this usually dictates the time it will take to Prove out a Possible Het and also as to what one would expect to pay for a Possible Het when purchasing.

A Possible Het is not Proven till it produces the Color it is Heterzygous for. Only then is the Possible Het discribed as a Proven 100% Het.
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#668453 - 11/05/08 03:53 PM Re: Breeding LeuXLeu [Re: Judie]
krysKritters Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 04/02/05
Posts: 2664
Loc: Hudson Valley, NY
Thanks everyone... I knew you all where out there and knew more about the actualy genetics than I. grin
My main point was no matter if you breed for genetics or color, the goal should be the same... to strengthen and widen the lines. grin
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#668461 - 11/05/08 03:59 PM Re: Breeding LeuXLeu [Re: ]
BCChins Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 3089
Loc: Central Connecticut
Originally Posted By: Leyna
[quote] Personally, I don't think 66% hets should even be bred.

Leyna can you please state why you do not think that 66% hets should be bred?
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#668472 - 11/05/08 04:19 PM Re: Breeding LeuXLeu [Re: BCChins]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
The Possible 66% Het is the result of two 100% Hets. For someone who has closely related lines then one should look for perhaps a Possible 50% Het or a Normal color if breeding to a Leu or to another 100% Het as it will offer more diversity to the closely bred lineage.

However, I feel 100% Hets are very important in a breeding program. Breeding a 100% Het to a Lesser Het will at least help determine who is a carrier of the desired gene one is trying to breed for two years or so down the road if not sooner.

If one were to rule out all 100% Hets... one will, over time, loose the gene for that color. The genetic gene pool will eventualy shrink to nothing.
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#669048 - 11/06/08 12:36 PM Re: Breeding LeuXLeu [Re: Judie]
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
Would it be acceptable to breed a leu with another leu that is 7-10 generations down the line?
Wouldn't that be the same as breeding a gray with a gray 7-10 generations down the line. I'm thinking long term

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#669075 - 11/06/08 01:07 PM Re: Breeding LeuXLeu [Re: GliderFun]
hollysmom
Unregistered


I don't think, from what I have been researching, that there would ever be an acceptable time to breed 2 leus.

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#669078 - 11/06/08 01:11 PM Re: Breeding LeuXLeu [Re: GliderFun]
Leyna
Unregistered


BCChins, I personally don't feel that breeding 66% hets is beneficial to leucistic lines. With the rare exception of pure line hets, it's impossible to pair 66% hets without inbreeding/line breeding. I also don't think leucistics should be paired with hets. While you can't produce a leu by pairing it with a gray, you can outbreed the lines and produce a glider that still has the leucistic gene. Eventually, the leu lines will be outbred enough that it will no longer matter, but I don't feel that the leu lines have reached that point yet.

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#669082 - 11/06/08 01:15 PM Re: Breeding LeuXLeu [Re: ]
BCChins Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 3089
Loc: Central Connecticut
Thank You for answering and I understand what you are saying.
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#669246 - 11/06/08 05:16 PM Re: Breeding LeuXLeu [Re: BCChins]
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
Are there genetic tests that can be done to determine certain things in Leus?

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#669275 - 11/06/08 05:50 PM Re: Breeding LeuXLeu [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
If one never breeds a Leucistic offspring which is not a BEW (which happens to be a 100% Leu Het)to another 100%.... just how do you expect to carry on the Leucistic Color?

When a Possible Lesser Het proves out... it is a 100% Leu Het.
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#669279 - 11/06/08 05:56 PM Re: Breeding LeuXLeu [Re: Judie]
Leyna
Unregistered


I don't understand what you are asking Judie.

You carry the leucistic gene on by pairing leucistics with non-leu line gliders. Then you pair up the hets or outbreed them to produce possible hets... I see nothing wrong with pairing unrelated hets.

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