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#685981 - 12/04/08 04:13 PM flying fur ranch
Jennifer_Maaske Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 2124
Loc: Conroe TX
Just trying to remember.

is the flying fur ranch a glider mill....or am I mistaken?
_________________________
Jennifer Maaske
4sugar gliders
2 great danes
1 American Eskimo dog
1 livestock guard dog
4 cats
2 goats
23 chicken
3children
1 Very tolerant husband

www.redemptiondayfarm.com

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#685983 - 12/04/08 04:14 PM Re: flying fur ranch [Re: Jennifer_Maaske]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
She won't let anyone see where she keeps her gliders, won't let them look into the "barn" she keeps them in. That right there would suggest to me that she is.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#685996 - 12/04/08 04:35 PM Re: flying fur ranch [Re: Dancing]
ScootersPet Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/09/05
Posts: 2092
Loc: Baltimore, MD
Going on what T said, I get that feeling too, she is obviously hiding something. And breeders that are hiding something are no good..


Edited by ScootersPet (12/04/08 04:39 PM)
_________________________



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#686011 - 12/04/08 04:57 PM Re: flying fur ranch [Re: ScootersPet]
PixTrix
Unregistered


When I first heard about the FFR years ago, my first thought was "glider mill" but haven't found any proof.


Jen

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#686027 - 12/04/08 05:17 PM Re: flying fur ranch [Re: ]
Jackie_Chans_Mom Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/01/07
Posts: 2511
Loc: Texas
At a very minimum, she used to be a mill. She did sell all her gray gliders to a different mill, so that should tell you something about how much she cares for her gliders. But, she made sure to keep all her colored gliders.

Just recently one of our members visited and was NOT allowed to even look into her "barn" where she keeps her gliders. She admittedly keeps them in small cages, but it is not really clear whether it is the 1X1X1 foot cages that she brings them out to show you in or if they are in the slightly larger 18X30X24 inch cages.

She also admittedly does not handle her gliders.

To me, it does not matter how many gliders you have - if you don't keep them in the house (where pets are kept) and if you don't handle them and if you don't carefully screen potential homes and if you don't allow anyone to SEE where you keep your gliders, then you are BAD NEWS and should not be trusted. She was once a mill and it appears that even though she reduced her numbers, she has not changed her ways.


Edited by Jackie_Chans_Mom (12/04/08 05:18 PM)
_________________________
~~ Val B ~~ 806-803-0318
Daily giving the abused, unloved, unwanted and neglected SOMETHING TO BELIEVE IN

PLEASE COMPLETE YOUR SUGAR GROUP SURVEYS!!!!!!!!!!!!

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#686139 - 12/04/08 08:13 PM Re: flying fur ranch [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
BelladonnasMom
Unregistered


I hate to admit it... but Jennifer was asking because I was talking to Susan at FFR about obtaining a joey from her in February. I mentioned it to Jennifer as we are to be roommates at the Austin SGR, and we were talking about our gliders and I brought it up.

Yeah, supposedly they are only breeding colored gliders now. But it matters not to me whether they are a proven mill or not. If you A) refuse to let me see where you house your gliders, B) keep your gliders in a seperate structure from your home and C) do NOT handle your gliders... then you are only in it for the money and I am NOT about to help you do it!

It really sickens me as I have been talking to her via e-mails for 2 days and she seemed all concerned about my gliders, the cage, quarantine and introductions. How can these people do that??? I don't really consider myself easily fooled, but a fool I may be right now.

Thanks Jennifer!!! And if you do discover one set of WFB poms to be fake... you let me know! LOL

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#686266 - 12/04/08 11:21 PM Re: flying fur ranch [Re: ]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16734
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Not trying to defend something I am not 100% sure on, but lets throw some food for thought out there for ya Robin...

Quote:
A) refuse to let me see where you house your gliders


Have YOU asked her to show you pics of her place where she keeps the gliders?

Quote:
B) keep your gliders in a seperate structure from your home


So once my hubby builds my *Glider House* for me, and it is temperature controlled and I spend most of my time out there, the fact that they are NOT inside my house will stop you from purchasing from me in the future?

Quote:
do NOT handle your gliders.


Once again, is this something Susan herself said to YOU??

Quote:
It really sickens me as I have been talking to her via e-mails for 2 days and she seemed all concerned about my gliders, the cage, quarantine and introductions. How can these people do that??? I don't really consider myself easily fooled, but a fool I may be right now.


Could it possibly be that she DOES care about her gliders and she is concerned if they will be going to a good home or not??

Could it possibly be that because she did at one time have way too many gliders and did fall under the *mill* label, we automatically want to believe the bad and not believe that a person can change?

I, for one, dont know Susan personally. I WOULD like to SEE her facility, and I would like to speak WITH HER and hear things from HER first hand instead of what I hear from others...

I know of some that think Priscilla Price should be in the *mill* label, and that is the FURTHEST thing from the truth there is.

Just thought I would play devils advocate and give some food for thought.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#686290 - 12/04/08 11:47 PM Re: flying fur ranch [Re: Srlb]
Lynsie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 8321
Loc: Quincy, IL 62305
Me me me!! I DID go to FFR just a few days ago and saw the barn that Susan kept her gliders in. I only saw the outside because she REFUSED to let me see the inside. She also said HERSELF that she does not handle her gliders. Virginia was with me and was interested in one of her joeys. Susan did not ask her one question on how she cares for her gliders. She just kept saying how she really want to sell these older boys and wanted to make some deals so she could get them gone. For all she knew, Virginia was going to put it in a 10 gal aquarium and feed it cat food. I would not recommend Susan to anyone. This is a pic of the area where she keeps her gliders, they are in one of those barns/sheds and I watched Susan walk directly over there to put some joeys back.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c163/LuckyYouGliders/DSC05381.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c163/LuckyYouGliders/DSC05385.jpg
_________________________
Lynsie,
LuckyYou Gliders


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#686321 - 12/05/08 12:52 AM Re: flying fur ranch [Re: Lynsie]
gliderboy4life Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 02/06/06
Posts: 841
Loc: Houston, Texas
Wanted to ad it is the top part of that building that is climate controlled where the gliders are kept. I have seen other cages in her office(they are the same ones outside). They are not to the community's standards, but are definately not mill size cages. There are also wheels in them.
Susan does care for her gliders and where though go. I was asked so many questions, as well as someone i know who wanted gliders from her.
Susan was brought up with a different view than many of us. At the begining i'm sure it was hard to keep things orderly with many gliders and people didn't need to see that. Now that cages are bigger and in a new facility things are better for her. What I'm getting to is. She has just recently started opening her doors to people. I was the first person to go out there back in December i think, and since have been MANY times espcially to play with Kenzie when she was a baby. She is learning how to deal one on one with clients and what is expected. She is having to rewire herself to having people over, and knowing more about her, I am know it is difficult for her.
I am sure many will not like this post. So be it. Susan is an amazing lady who has a HUGE heart. Taking pics and spying on her is just wrong in my opinion. When she is ready we all will see truth, but i don't see that anywhere in the near future with her being treated how she is.
_________________________
Tyler Cleckley
www.GliderBoyGliders.com

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#686324 - 12/05/08 01:03 AM Re: flying fur ranch [Re: Lynsie]
BelladonnasMom
Unregistered


Allright Peggy... I can see your point, and I did make a bad decision in my wording. I am not going to get drawn into a heated debate. I am simply going to state what I did today, then tell a story.

I contacted Susan at FFR and told her I had heard from others that she doesn't handle her gliders. She said they are in fact handled by her and her ONLY (which is fine), and then she invited me to come to her facility and that she would LOVE to show me her babies. I told her I would love to do just that, and told her I would contact her when I would be in Houston again. And if I like what I see, or even don't see, and find the joey I am looking for, I will buy from her. My main goal is a healthy WFB female, that is well socialized, within the time frame I am looking to bring one home, and within my non-breeder price range... PERIOD.

And in my way of thinking... no, a seperate structure really isn't the greatest idea. Doesn't make you a bad person, or a mill breeder. Just that MAYBE you have a few too many, and MAYBE you aren't able to keep as close an eye on them as I can mine in my office in my home. But that is just MY opinion. All 3 things together however would be a no-go for ME. If the joeys I see are friendly, clean and healthy... well then I have to think that her gliders are well (or well enough) cared for, and I will still consider buying from her. I know what kind of life I can povide for the joey.

Now for the story...

My spouse is an Animal Control Officer with our local Police department. So my idea of a "mill" may be a bit different than others. I see people on a weekly basis that breed dogs then only go in once a day (or 2 days, or 3) and throw out food and refill dirty water bowls. Dead puppies are lucky to be noticed once a week and thrown in the trash. Mom's who won't breed are held down to be raped, and males who are too old to breed are taken out and shot. Now, is there any way that this type of thing can happen with a tiny fragile glider and there still be a happy healthy looking friendly baby shown for sale??? I say NO, not when ALL of these factors come into play. I have seen the condition of pet shop gliders and (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets joeys at fairs. You can TELL they were not reared well if you know what you are looking for. And in my short time and experience and IMMENSE research, I really think I can. Puppies for sale have a "look" about them, even if they are freshly bathed and fed well for a week or so, they have a dead look in their eyes and cower to the ground in fear of neglectful and hurtful human hands. I would not buy such a puppy, and I will not buy such a joey.

Don't be so defensive Peggy, I really wasn't trying to attack you or ANY breeder. I can only go by what I SEE! And I intend to judge for myself, as I said to Susan today when I contacted her AFTER I posted on this thread.

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#686326 - 12/05/08 01:36 AM Re: flying fur ranch [Re: ]
Laurens_Babies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3570
Loc: Kansas City, MO
Just a quick note on the separate structure thing and why I feel like it is a bad idea. On the very few occasions I have had an escaped glider within the glider room I have been alerted probably within minutes of the escape by the other gliders. VIA *SOUND* I can HEAR when my joeys are crying, which is a sign of a rejected joey. I *could* HEAR a fight break out in my glider room and separate before damage is done between the gliders or at least be there as soon as a glider has been hurt and get them to the vet. I have had two water bottles malfunction in my time of owning gliders and both times my gliders insistent barking has alerted me to the water bottle malfunction. I worry when I'm out of town and Nick is watching the gliders because he is working most nights. Being able to HEAR your gliders is very important! Now.. maybe she has a baby monitor or something in there. I dunno. I'm more just addressing having your gliders in a separate housing situation and problems that could occur from it.

Now to Tyler and Peggy. I have no clue on if FFR is a Mill IMO I prefer not to buy from someone who views their gliders as breeding stock and not pets. So *I* personally will not buy from her. But as for getting upset with other members and probably now me each person has to call it like they see it. How does the saying go?? Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck... Probably IS a duck. If Susan wishes to improve other peoples opinion of her then hurray!! FFR is the site of the first creminos, I'm sure her insight into glider genetics would be a valued addition to this community. But currently as it stands, the image that SHE shows of herself is not good and it is up to HER to fix that.
_________________________
~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*

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#686330 - 12/05/08 02:17 AM Re: flying fur ranch [Re: Laurens_Babies]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
This I know of Flying Fur Ranch (where my Riker and Binx came from)

As of 2003 they had over 1500 breeding pairs in 1 foot by 1 foot breeding cages, stacked.

Food was pellets and diet that came with was not good.

Lineages/Inbreeding was questionable.

They will sell to any broker in bulk, at the time of Riker's purchase of $250.00, he cost the broker $38.00.

Summer of 2003 over 300 of the joeys from there in UTAH ALONE came with giardia, and most died.

Both of my gliders from FFR came with HLP, too young, and cost thousands of dollars to save. Others I know of weren't so lucky.

They are in Texas. And yes, by all definitions, a mill breeder.

That's all I really need to know of these folks to not like them, to put it mildly.


Edited by Xfilefan (12/05/08 02:19 AM)
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#686331 - 12/05/08 03:19 AM Re: flying fur ranch [Re: Xfilefan]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
Susan and I have been friends by phone and online about 6 years. She is a kind lady and because of what is being said, I am sure she is very hurt by what is happening here.
I met Susan face to face this week for the first time when Tyler, Priscilla and I went out to see her. I have been planning on making this trip for about 5 months and flew out with my husband on a business trip. I wish I could have had more time there to visit. The first time I talked to Susan on the phone 6 years ago we talked for two hours.
Susan invited me into her home and Priscilla and Tyler also wanted to see all the pretty gliders that we had seen pictures of online. Five years ago when Susan owned ffr she told me that I could come and visit and go in her large barn(she has two barns) where all the gliders were kept. I told her that I would love to come to Houston sometimes and visit. About a year later she told me that she had made a new rule that she would not allow anyone to come into her room because when she hired help for when she went out of town, the parent's canabalized a lot of joeys. Paid help is not always dependable and in my opinion, there is a possibility that the gliders were skipped over or not thoroughly fed. Regardless of my opinion, this is the way Susan felt and I respected her for that. I have never had that problem with my gliders until recently where I allowed people into my glider room and let them hold a 10 day old Joey and that night it was killed. The other Joey was untouched and is completely alive and healthy. That baby was 10 days old and 24 grams so it was not being rejected. After that incident I have decided that I will no longer allow anyone to touch any Joey under two weeks of age and if they do, they may still come in my glider room, but different measures will be taken to ensure the safety of the animals.
Prior to my visit - Virginia called me Sunday night and asked if she and Lynsie could go with Priscilla, Tyler and myself out to Susan's on Monday. I told her that I did not think that would be a good idea. I called Susan to clear this with her to make sure that I wasn't just making this decision for her. She told me that Lynsie and Virginia had already called her and invited themselves to come after I told them she probably didn't want them to come with us. She told me that Lynsie had sent her emails inquiring about joeys, but she didn't know Virginia very well. I assured her that Virginia was a good breeder as far as I knew and was very good with gliders. Susan has always worked wholesale and has not had just people coming by before except a couple of people and that is normally just one or two at a time. She felt a little overwhelmed with all of us coming so told Lynsie and Virginia that they could come after we left which they did. Susan had seen the post Lynsie had made about never purchasing from a mill breeder and this post was the FFR post. Susan questioned in her mind why Lynsie would be interested in any of her joeys if she considered her a mill breeder. I told Susan that sometimes on these forums that people start posting on a topic and it goes off on a rabbit trail. They make a post that has nothing to do with the context of the subject line or title. I defended Lynsie saying that I thought that that is what happened here, and that Lynsie did not consider her a mill breeder and that is why she was interested in her joeys. I think so much has been said in the past on forums about FFR that Susan was leary and untrusting of a lot of people. Regardless, she still allowed Lynsie to come into her home and show her her babies. I think under the circumstances, Susan would have not let Lynsie ever see her glider room based on what Lynsie had posted about never purchasing from a mill breeder(before she had actually gone there) because a level of trust had been lost. Susan wanted to clear this up with Lynsie when she got there and pulled her aside to talk to her privately. I think Susan felt the visit with Lynsie and Virginia went well because there was open conversation and nothing derogatory was said or even asked while they were there. When Lynsie and Virginia got back to Priscillas, I asked Virginia how it went. She said Lynsie was upset because she thought that one of the cages that the gliders were brought out in was their permanent cage. There was no indication that it was a permanent cage. The gliders were in there with their pouch along with no fecas in the bottom and it was obvious these were not permanent. Susan made the comment that they were in the largest cage and Lynsie assumed that she was referring to the baby cage she carried them out in. Priscilla, Tyler and myself knew those weren't the cages they were in because we had asked her to bring out several gliders and she didn't have enough of the small cages so we would have to view one while she put the others back to get out another, plus there was no fecas droppings or water bottles in the temporary cages. When Virginia told me that they thought these were the gliders cages, I assurred her based on what we observed that they were not the cages. She had the same three to four cages that she brought out that she switched the gliders out to show us. I don't think that Lynsie or Virginia believed me when I told them so the next day I called Susan to just confirm that they were not the permanent cages and told her what Lynsie and Virginia had thought. She said that the cages she brought out were not the permanent cages, but only transport cages for carrying back and forth. Susan was shocked that they would even think something like that.
Our Visit to Susan's: Susan had a lovely farm home, well kept, very clean and neat. I do not know the standard for which her gliders are kept in, but I do know that the standard of her home was lovely, very homey with lovely furnishings and very clean! Susan brought out several gliders at our request and every glider was healthy looking, nourished and clean. One female had an eye infection that was being treated with antibiotics. I do know that if a glider is exhibiting stress, it will show signs of balding, thin hair on the head, eyebrows and tail. None of the gliders that she had had any of these characteristics. After looking that the healthiness of her gliders, I would have no need or any reason to ask to see her glider room. How many toys a glider has, may indicate that a glider could end up not as happy and I see that being a problem over the life of a glider, but how many toys in a cage or how well decorated it is with matching everything does not determine how good of a breeder you are or determine if you are a mill. I have seen the definition of a glider mill on the internet and frankly I see from that unhealthy animals, skinny malnorished animals, animals who have poop and pee all over their pouches and cages. mill breeders do not seek medical attention when their animals are in need of care. mill breeders are people that don't offer support and breeders that don't make good on their warranties of animals. mill breeders will sell babies that are too young, pulling them from the parents before they are weaned and run from the customer when anything happens to the glider. mill breeders recycle the glider food by picking it up off the cage bottom and putting it back into the dish. Meal breeders feed [censored] diets and it shows in the gliders coat and weight. mill breeders will tell you are getting a het for some color, and you find out you got a normal for a high price. I do not see Susan doing any of these things. What I do see is Susan not letting her clients see her glider room. I think it is a matter of trust with people because of what has been done on boards to tear Susan as well as other people to shreds. Perhaps she should open her glider room for people to peer at the door and not go in, but that is up to her. If it keeps people from purchasing gliders from her then perhaps she will start to let people view her room. Susan and I did meet for lunch again on Wed. for a three hour visit. She told me that she trusted me and that I could come back with her if I would like, to see her glider room. I did not feel the need to do that as I had already seen the physical condidion of the joeys and parents. I believe that Susan would allow you to see her glider room if she trusted you. I don't think her pictures of her glider room should be posted all over a website. If she wants to show someone privately if they are purchasing a glider from her, it is up to her. I feel as if many people have purchased from me and have never even seen pictures of in my glider room. There are people that won't purchase a glider from you unless they have seen your glider room, but I don't have to see someone's room to know if the glider is well cared for or healthy. I was told today that I should have gone back to her house and looked at her glider room when she offered, so that I could help all the people here who will be hurt by her not showing it. I would have if I had known all this was going to be posted about it. A person's reputation says a lot to me and how they treat me as a person says even more. Susan has 50 cages now and caring for the gliders in much more manageable for her.
As far as the Dry Food she feeds, it is Pet Pro breeder Formula. Lynsie, Susan knew about what kind of breeder and person Virginia was because she asked me.
_________________________
ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL

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#686349 - 12/05/08 05:37 AM Re: flying fur ranch [Re: Sheila]
Leyna
Unregistered


As the story unfolds, I am disgusted by the manipulation and maliciousness that is being reviled. I personally have bought gliders from Susan and I was very pleased with them. When one of my gliders from her ended up getting sick, Susan went above and beyond, 'replacing' the glider, even though she had been in my care for a couple months. I do not doubt that my gliders cages, toys, etc wouldn't live up to some peoples standards, but that doesn't mean my gliders aren't cared for or loved. Just because somebody doesn't do something exactly the same way as you, doesn't mean they are doing it wrong. Also, in regards to not letting people in your glider room due to loosing babies... I also have a similar policy. I have a couple females that I know get stressed when new people come around them. I will not let strangers into my glider room when they are expecting or have joeys OOP. It something that I had to learn the hard way and something I'm not willing to compromise on. That doesn't make me a bad breeder/owner.

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#686352 - 12/05/08 05:46 AM Re: flying fur ranch [Re: Sheila]
heartlandglider Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 11/29/06
Posts: 282
Loc: In
When I was first into dogs I can remember making a judgment call on a breeder. She would not allow you back to where she kept all her dogs. She would just bring out the dogs that you were interested in to show you. I can remember how strange and odd I thought it was that she wouldn't take people back there. Yes, she must have something to hide. That must be the reason. There is something she doesn't want anyone to see.
As time passed and I got better educated and less judgemental, I did figure out why she didn't allow people back with her dogs, and I was totally wrong on the reason.
When I started breeding myself I found that strangers going back where mothers have puppies etc is very upsetting for the mothers. The mothers start barking jumping all over and babies are hurt/killed in the process. Not only that, but diseases can be carried in on ones feet, hands, clothes etc. Since one has no idea what someone else has been around that they could transmit, keeping people away is the best option. Some of the diseases are deadly with dogs, such as parvo, kennel cough and several other very contagious diseases that can wipe out your puppies in a matter of days, keep your kennel dogs sick for months etc. You can also add fleas, lice, mites and other little critters to this list which bring along their own little nasty things.
The lady was always gracious when I went to her house and showed me anything I wanted to see. All were healthy and clean and showed good care.
How much damage we can do to good people when making our own judgement calls without really thinking over the issue and what the real reasons might be for not letting people into buildings where our animals are housed. Not letting people hold them and pet them etc.
Now, I don't let people in around my dogs and I don't let people pick them up. I am sure I would be judged the same way this nice lady was by someone that didn't really have an understanding of where these precautions come from.
The moral to this story is not to judge others so hastily when things just aren't as we think they should be. Frequently there are very valid reasons for their actions, such as protecting their animals.To everyone that loves their animals that is the first thing we all want to do since they can't look out for themselves.
_________________________
Dianne Kieffer
Heartland Gliders




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#686358 - 12/05/08 07:05 AM Re: flying fur ranch [Re: Xfilefan]
TWilson
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Xfilefan
This I know of Flying Fur Ranch (where my Riker and Binx came from)

As of 2003 they had over 1500 breeding pairs in 1 foot by 1 foot breeding cages, stacked.

Food was pellets and diet that came with was not good.

Lineages/Inbreeding was questionable.

They will sell to any broker in bulk, at the time of Riker's purchase of $250.00, he cost the broker $38.00.

Summer of 2003 over 300 of the joeys from there in UTAH ALONE came with giardia, and most died.

Both of my gliders from FFR came with HLP, too young, and cost thousands of dollars to save. Others I know of weren't so lucky.

They are in Texas. And yes, by all definitions, a mill breeder.

That's all I really need to know of these folks to not like them, to put it mildly.



This is FFR's past reputation and it is a known fact as I've not seen anyone ever disprove this. Because of FFR's past, people are going to question them now, it would be no different for ANY mill breeder.

I let people into my glider room, I take precautions though. I have a rescues that were very traumatized and over grooming is an understatement. Most go into my glider room during the daytime, hands are washed and shoes are taken OFF at the door. Conversation is kept quiet and I get out pouches of some of the cages. My overgroomers are NOT disturbed at all. None of my gliders are stressed at all during this and anyone can see how they are cared for. I rescue gliders and my standards as such are high, any glider that comes into my home is very well taken care of by me. I also have a garage apartment and would be perfect for housing gliders in, climate controlled, well insulated and spacious. I do NOT choose to use that to house gliders, too much could happen with them being away from the house, that is a risk I choose not to take.

It has been noted above by Tyler that he and Priscilla saw the inside of FFR's barn, yet others have not, including you Sheila and you state that you are friends with her. I also know that alot of people buy gliders from breeders that have not seen their glider rooms, however, there are many that have seen these breeders rooms and these breeders have NOT ever been a mill at ANY time.

I'm sorry, there is a history with this breeder, they were a mill and that is their reputation now as nothing has been proven to discredit that as of yet. People make bad choices in life and reputations are lost, it happens all the time. In an effort to correct a damaged reputation, one has to go above and beyond that of someone who has held a stellar reputation. FFR has been asked many times to prove they are no longer a mill, and no real effort has been put forth to do that.

People, including myself, are very interested in this matter. Gliders mills are harming so many of these precious little ones and it is up to people like myself and others to put forth an effort to stop these mills. (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets is a prime example, they only deal in grey gliders as of right now, but they can sure sell out at any time to another mill and go into the pretty colors. They have and will make alot of money on these babies and no doubt can afford to build a state of the art breeding facility and have money to staff it. Does that mean they would now be a reputable breeder? Would we buy from them because they now have the pretty colors and a nice breeding facility that NO ONE is allowed to go into except the folks that work for them? They are very nice to their customers, and sugar cannot melt in their mouth when they talk to you, just ask the one that bought from them they will tell you that.

Would we, would we buy from (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets if they did exactly what FFR appears to have done and is doing because they have the pretty colors? I wonder................

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#686366 - 12/05/08 07:48 AM Re: flying fur ranch [Re: ]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16734
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
Allright Peggy... I can see your point, and I did make a bad decision in my wording. I am not going to get drawn into a heated debate.

Quote:
Don't be so defensive Peggy, I really wasn't trying to attack you or ANY breeder. I can only go by what I SEE! And I intend to judge for myself, as I said to Susan today when I contacted her AFTER I posted on this thread


Robin, Im sorry you took that as me being defensive. Honestly, it was not. I have NO reason to be defensive at all. I was just trying to make a point that although a person may see someone as one thing, until we see for OURSELVES, maybe we shouldnt be so quick to pass judgement or believe what others feel to be correct.

I dont know Susan, I have never purchased from her so my statements were just basically an *overall* statement. I just cant help but think, if ONE person thought of me as bad, and told someone else they knew, and that person didnt know ME, how easy would it be for a bunch of strangers to make an opinion of me off what ONE persons opinion started...see what I mean?
I applaud you for wanting to wait and see for yourself before making your final decision.

Quote:
Now to Tyler and Peggy. I have no clue on if FFR is a Mill IMO I prefer not to buy from someone who views their gliders as breeding stock and not pets.


Lauren, I dont know FFR neither. Only things I have heard and NO there are many things I personally DONT agree with. But there are also others that do the same thing their names are not raised up in question.

Quote:
So *I* personally will not buy from her.


I wont neither. But than again, I wont buy from anyone that I have not seen their glider room myself, or in pictures. I seen Priscillas room prior to buying my first glider from her, and I seen Sheilas room before my first glider from her, and we all know I have seen Alicias room many times and I seen pics of CKB's Cages and Bourbons Cages!! For the gliders that were given to me, I had seen pics of Teresas cages. Being able to SEE first hand where and how the parents are raised IS important to me. Not only because of the physical health of the animal but also because of the MENTAL health a glider has. It is known that if they do not have something to stimulate them, they CAN and WILL have mental issues, that is in ANY animal. That can also be carried over to their offspring...THAT for ME is why it IS SO important to SEE myself how someone is taking care of their gliders.

Quote:
the image that SHE shows of herself is not good and it is up to HER to fix that.


That I agree on. It is up to HER to fix that.

Quote:
This is FFR's past reputation and it is a known fact as I've not seen anyone ever disprove this. Because of FFR's past, people are going to question them now, it would be no different for ANY mill breeder.


Totally Agree.

As a breeder, I PERSONALLY feel that you should allow ANYONE at ANYTIME to SEE your glider area. Period. Whether that be pictures of if someone shows up at your door unannounced. You should NEVER have a reason NOT to allow someone to see. So you have dirty cages...we ALL do at some point. As long as they are not filthy, a glider is not going to have a pristine cage constantly.

Do I think people can change? YES, I do. Do I think Susan has changed? I dont know...once again, I dont know her.

For almost all of us, our gliders are our beloved PETS. But Shawna pointed this out to me the other day, and hopefully she will come along and make her post about it because it made a lot of sense. Although WE see and feel our gliders to be pets, doesnt mean everyone does. Even those that dont, and do see them as their *breeders only*, should ALWAYS take proper care of them, proper vet visits, proper housing, etc...but some dont view them as pets. Just as although I take exceptionally good care of my animals at the pet store, they are NOT my pets. They are indeed part of my business, part of my livelihood. I never thought of it like that before until Shawna pointed it out.

I am NOT sticking up for ANY MILLS...I do NOT think ANYONE should EVER buy from a MILL. However, because at one point someone was in over their heads and realized it, sold off most of her gliders and has downsized, are they still considered a mill? I dont know. I dont know her first hand and until I do, I wont make a judgement call and just go by what others think because people obviously have different opinions.

Tyler and Priscilla feel Susan is NOT a mill breeder. Lynsie feels she may be. Difference of opinions...I like all three of the above stated people, and I trust their judgments, however when they differ that shows me it is time to see for myself.

Going back up to something Leyna said...Leyna, you can allow people to SEE into your glider room, without ever allowing them *in* if you have that much of a concern. You open the door to the room they are in, allow someone to peek their head in there and just *see*. People dont need to be touching things anyway. Virginia and Lynsie SEEN all my cages and ALL my gliders without touching anything at all. If I had one that was a nervous glider I would have told them, I am not taking this one out and the reason why...if people dont understand that, then they have issues of their own to deal with...

anyway, just wanted to clarify, I am NOT sticking up for mill breeders, but I am saying people do change, can change and because of some of the things I know myself, I personally choose NOT to pass judgement until I SEE for MYSELF in this particular case.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#686368 - 12/05/08 07:50 AM Re: flying fur ranch [Re: ]
thefotokat Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1360
Loc: Ft. Pierce, FL
Just a couple of things from a rescue home's perspective. There is a distinction between the "person" and the "glider breeder/keeper/rescuer". Someone can be a sweet, soft spoken, funny "person" but that has absolutely nothing to do w/their ability/method as a "glider owner/breeder/keeper/rescuer". For example, Virgil Klunder from Pocket Pets. Anyone who has spoken to him can tell you he comes across as caring, gentle, educated...basically he sounds like Mr. Rogers by phone or if you meet him in person. Many salesmen are good at what they do because of their personality. What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter what type of "person" Susan is. Now, for the glider issues. For years, bad situations have been allowed to exist and continue simply because no one demanded honesty and answers. Now the community's attitude has changed and we do expect breeders and rescuers (both of whom I personally feel must be held to a higher standard than the average pet owner) to be forthcoming about the care and housing of their animals. I knew that ffr had sold a mass quantity of grey gliders to another breeder (one who appears to be a mill), but I didn't know the other info Jen posted. We are each responsible for ourselves. It is our words and actions that must earn the community's respect. Respect is not something that is given...it's not a gift. Especially in light of ffr's past, it would seem that Susan would want to publicly show that she is changing, if that is the case. I read her posts on another board, and from just that...her words...my previous opinion was strengthened. I have several gliders that came from mills. They are now permanent residents here due to health problems. In my opinion, those health problems are due to the bad diet and conditions the mill kept them in and then recommended its customers keep them in. It's something that I, like other rescue homes, see and deal with daily. It is why we are so passionate about preventing it from continuing. Who someone is as a "person" matters not one bit. For those who consider Susan a friend...it's your choice. This post is not about her or friendship. It's simply about gliders. It seems that so much of these problems stem from the desire for colored gliders. Every glider is precious.


Edited by thefotokat (12/05/08 07:52 AM)
_________________________
Kate
SouthEast Sugar Gliders
SESG Rescue and Sanctuary
SECARES
Go To The Vet!!!

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#686369 - 12/05/08 07:54 AM Re: flying fur ranch [Re: ]
gliderboy4life Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 02/06/06
Posts: 841
Loc: Houston, Texas
That's incorrect Priscilla and I have not seen the glider room.
_________________________
Tyler Cleckley
www.GliderBoyGliders.com

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#686370 - 12/05/08 07:54 AM Re: flying fur ranch [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
I'd be VERY happy were it no longer true. $500 of my joeys lay under an ancient tree dead of advanced giardia days after purchase, not counting vet bills. I knew of the reputation, and still tried to save the babies-it was way too late the day of purchase-2 days after shipping arrival. vet estimated them to be between 4 and 5 weeks out of pouch-one did not have a fluffed tail yet. All had bad diarrhea, but two was all I could afford at the time. I think that if the image/practices have changed in the 6 years since Commander Riker, Binx, Troi I (d), Gumpy (d), Lilo & Stitch (rescued rehomes who also had high vet bills), it should be outlined. Otherwise the reputation will persist. I know things can change, but if the effort is not put out to make that known, what IS known will be what is acted upon.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#686371 - 12/05/08 07:55 AM Re: flying fur ranch [Re: ]
Suggiegramma Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 1520
Loc: St. Charles, Missouri
You know, what really bothers me is people defending Susan on these glider sites but talk behind her back and say they would never buy a glider from her.

Susan is a VERY nice lady and I really liked her when I met her. I just don't happen to like how she raises her gliders.

Sheila, I ASKED if I could just GLANCE in her glider room, not handle any joeys, just LOOK, from the door...and I was turned down. I think if I wouldn't let someone into my home to see where my gliders were kept that they would not buy from me.

I REALLY wanted a creme-ino joey she had, but the backlash from this community would have been too great and I probably would not have been able to sell another joey, had I purchased it. It's a shame that she just doesn't post a few pictures so people can see what her glider facility looks like. I think it would make things a lot easier for her.

But then again, maybe she doesn't need people like me to buy from her? Maybe she has all the customers she needs...


Oh, and Sheila, about inviting myself to Susan's house....I didn't feel it was up to you to tell me I wouldn't be welcome there so I called Susan myself. I told her if it was ANY inconvenience we wouldn't go over there. She said no problem, she just wanted us at a different time than you so we could have one on one time.
_________________________
Virginia

Suggies
Sachi,Miuccia,Mignon,Cosette,Blaise,Florianna,Fabio,
Abbi,Fletcher,Eshton,Hansel,Gretel,Sahara,Parker,SugarBear,
Emily,Ariana,Symphony,Mozart,Smeegle,Cocoa,Hershey,Tippy,
Hollister,Anastasia,Buffy,Tawny,Stormy,Aurora,Chance,Karma,
Kristoff,Ruby.



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#686375 - 12/05/08 08:09 AM Re: flying fur ranch [Re: Suggiegramma]
Leyna
Unregistered


Peggy, as of now, you can't really just 'peek in' my glider room without disturbing at least some of my gliders. I have cages right next to the door... And usually when you get one of my babies up and going, the rest are soon to follow... I have my reasons for not wanting people in my glider room, some of them being that I'm just plain over protective. I won't let most people hold my dogs leash either, it's just how I am... But I've also had some bad experiences with strangers being around my gliders that just compound my fears.

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#686387 - 12/05/08 08:40 AM Re: flying fur ranch [Re: gliderboy4life]
TWilson
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: gliderboy4life
That's incorrect Priscilla and I have not seen the glider room.


Sorry Tyler, I took the explaination of your describing her cages inside her barn, along with the description of it as going inside. My apologies to you. smile

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#686391 - 12/05/08 08:56 AM Re: flying fur ranch [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
Virginia after I told you that susan would not want yall there I called her to verify. Since I have known her for so long, and I knew she was even nervous about me coming, I spoke on her behalf, but I was right about it. Since Susan had never had retail at her house before, I had an appointment. It was like a planned appt. that I had planned for many months. I think I could have had some say so if I wanted others' there also since I flew there specifically to see her, Priscilla and meet Tyler.
As for People changing - I think they can change and many have pasts that haunt them. One of the changes Susan has made when going from large to small is you have more control about what goes out your door. If the animals were too small and young and not now, that is a change. If you go from over 1000 gliders to now 50 cages - that is a change. If you have your gliders in a large barn to a smaller barn that has been remodled, that is a change. We don't know what the big barn was like, and we don't know what the inside of the barn is now, but we do know the animals are being sold when weaned at 8 weeks now and we know the parents are healthy looking.
If people not being allowed in a glider room lables them as a mill breeder - cause that is all that you are saying is wrong now, then many people on this board are mill breeders - Leyna just said so herself that she would not allow you in - so is Leyna a mill breeder now? I see changes in Susan's practices - the only change I don't see is letting people in her establishment. I think because Susan lives on a farm Diane Kieffer has some good points, after all aren't some of these worms people have been seeing the type that come off of farms. I think the gliders that Susan has now speak for themselves. I saw many gliders at the SGGA that didn't look as healthy as her gliders and I would be reluctant to buy over those breeders because of the way their gliders looked.
TWilson, my point about being someone's friend is that after years of knowing someone, at 54 I have a good just of character and I don't believe Susan is trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes.
Talked to Judie last night and told her what was going on and she feels like I do - don't want to come and post anymore because of all the bashing and criticism. It is sad because with breeders like myself of 9 years and Judie of 11-12, we could help the glider community, but I feel everytime I come to these boards I am having to defend someone that is unrightfully being crucified. I do go to gatherings and SGGA's and help people there who need me, but am not even sure if I will go to those next year and will have to think long and hard about it. I do not like what I have seen happen to the glider community over the last nine years. I wish that I had never imported those first Leu's from Canada because things might be different with the attitudes of everyone. If you are ever the subject of lies in this community you know how hurtful it could be. Was it not a year ago that someone was bashing KDR because he was away for two months and they visited his house and posted what they saw? When people hurt people in the community, it takes years to get over. I am sure it takes years to get over the hard experience of losing a glider like Jen did, but why do we put hurt upon hurt. I would rather love someone and give them some Grace first, not last after I am old and bitterly let it eat me up inside. I would love to see this community turn around but it is going to take the people in it to turn themselves and forgive and give grace. I don't know if that is possible, but I for one will not be in the community much longer because I am tired of what I see. I am sure the Admin and owners of this site feel the same way I do as they have seen it take a downward spiral and it is sad. People tell me it is the way the whole world has become and I guess they are right, but I still don't like seeing it and have to fight the temptation every day not to be that way.
_________________________
ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL

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#686404 - 12/05/08 09:22 AM Re: flying fur ranch [Re: Sheila]
TWilson
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Sheila
As for People changing - I think they can change and many have pasts that haunt them. One of the changes Susan has made when going from large to small is you have more control about what goes out your door. If the animals were too small and young and not now, that is a change. If you go from over 1000 gliders to now 50 cages - that is a change. If you have your gliders in a large barn to a smaller barn that has been remodled, that is a change. We don't know what the big barn was like, and we don't know what the inside of the barn is now, but we do know the animals are being sold when weaned at 8 weeks now and we know the parents are healthy looking.
If people not being allowed in a glider room lables them as a mill breeder - cause that is all that you are saying is wrong now, then many people on this board are mill breeders - Leyna just said so herself that she would not allow you in - so is Leyna a mill breeder now? I see changes in Susan's practices - the only change I don't see is letting people in her establishment. I think because Susan lives on a farm Diane Kieffer has some good points, after all aren't some of these worms people have been seeing the type that come off of farms. I think the gliders that Susan has now speak for themselves. I saw many gliders at the SGGA that didn't look as healthy as her gliders and I would be reluctant to buy over those breeders because of the way their gliders looked.
TWilson, my point about being someone's friend is that after years of knowing someone, at 54 I have a good just of character and I don't believe Susan is trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes.


No disrespect meant here at all, but Sheila you state that you have have seen the changes in what FFF sells, gliders over 8 weeks old and mostly healthy. You say she has downsized to 50 cages, but no one has seen that right or the inside of her barn? How can anyone say for sure what it looks like or how many cages she really has? dunno

As far as Lenya, she has let one person that I know of in her glider room, that was Nicole. Also, was there ever any proof that Leyna was a mill breeder to begin with.......not ever to my knowledge has there ever been any question of that.

I also live on a farm with lots of animals and I take precautions to make sure my gliders aren't exposed to anything that might be in the ground, don't know if I said it above but all shoes are taken off and hands are washed thoroughly before coming into my glider room.


Edited by TWilson (12/05/08 09:25 AM)
Edit Reason: added content

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#686410 - 12/05/08 09:31 AM Re: flying fur ranch [Re: ]
Leyna
Unregistered


Tammy, we do know on some level that Susan downsized because we know who she sold her gliders to... Her WT's went to S and S exotics for example.

Also, whoever said that Susan doesn't handle her gliders is mistaken. Both Godiva and Sorbet (both from Susan) were very friendly from day one. Somebody obviously was handling them before I got them...

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#686428 - 12/05/08 09:48 AM Re: flying fur ranch [Re: Sheila]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16734
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Sheila, as I told you and I will tell everyone here right now...if I can not see WHERE I am getting my animals from, be it my gliders or my animals for my pet store I will NOT purchase them. Nor will I recommend them to anyone if asked. Period. Housing has a LOT to do with the MENTAL well being of ANY animal. Now, will be all agree the SIZE of the cages used? Of course not, but even breeders of animals know if something is RIGHT or WRONG.
Like I said to you last night when you told me it was none of my business what her cages looked like...if I am wanting to purchase a glider from her or ANYONE else, it IS my business what the housing looks like and I DO have a right to see it. As I stated, I have seen EVERY place my animals in my home and at the store come from. The gentleman I get my Marshalls ferrets from has sent me pictures of his establishment so I can see how HE takes care of the animals once they arrive to HIS facility. That is what matters to me, as I am buying from him. Now some dont agree because he is purchasing from Marshalls, however, it matters to ME how an animal is taken care of once they get to HIS home...I dont buy from Marshalls, I buy from him...the same with gliders. I dont care where you or anyone else buys from, that is none of my business, what IS MY business is if I choose to buy from YOU, than I have EVERY RIGHT to see what kind of housing and treatment you give to the animals YOU own and sell.

As for Leyna, if I chose I wanted to purchase a glider from Leyna and she would not allow me to see the housing of her gliders, be it recent pics or actually seeing it, than NO I would NOT purchase that glider from her, even though I know she is a WONDERFUL person and she goes above and beyond for her gliders. MENTAL state of gliders, or any animal for that matter, mean a LOT to ME personally.

I do believe that Susan is not used to being a part of a *community*, however, if you are selling to the public, wholesale or retail, it does not matter, you have to be willing to answer questions asked of you, and be willing to compromise with your customers.

Just like I asked you last night Sheila, if you were to buy a puppy, and you went to the persons house, and you asked to see the parents, and they took you in a room where there were several crates, and all the dogs were pinned in crates with urine and feces, and no where to roam and the puppies were in these crates as well...would you buy from them? No, of course you would not. Why? Because you know that is not right...so what is the difference if someone goes to someones home to buy a glider, and they ask to see the place where the gliders are kept, would it be wrong if the person changed their mind due to the living conditions of the gliders not being correct? Dirty cages? Too small, no toys?? I am NOT saying this is Susans, but trying to make a point that it IS our business IF we are planning on buying from this person.

Now should she have to answer to a whole community? No, not unless everyone is buying from her, but wouldnt it be better to have loving glider owners behind you in a positive manner then to wonder if you arent showing pics because you have something to hide?

Virginia, I dont see ANYONE posting here defending Susan that said they would not buy from her. I myself said if I am not able to see her facility for myself I would never buy from her, but she has not turned me away as of today, so I am not able to say I would never buy from her. IF she did prove out to be what is considered *A Mill* as of today, than NO I would not buy from her, but I do not know that to be a fact as of yet.

And Sheila, maybe next time you should just tell someone to call that person to ask about visitation instead of speaking for them. I know I would never tell someone they could NOT go to your place without saying well why dont you call them and ask them how they feel....but hey, thats just me....
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#686430 - 12/05/08 09:53 AM Re: flying fur ranch [Re: ]
heartlandglider Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 11/29/06
Posts: 282
Loc: In
I have been on some boards before and got off of them exactly for this kind of reason.........people. Some can be so mean, hateful and judgemental. A public board is not where some things should be said that are going to be so hurtful to some people.
I see some things that aren't the way I would do them. However, we all have our own ideas and feelings in regard to why/how we do things. Why do we have to be judged? If you don't approve of how someone does things, its not a biggy. You don't have to do them that way.
Why can't we care for one another and help each other. Why can't this board be a place where you can come and post and not have to worry about being judged, attacked and condemned, then have a few ruin a reputation you have tried to build? What pleasure is there to be had over speaking unkindly of others? How do you expect people to share their knowledge when they don't feel free to because of the confrontations they get?
I have been on the receiving end of this bashing because of my one pair of 3rd cousin breeding Leu pair. I have had people on the board send private emails supporting me and wanting information, but they're afraid to post this support here because of what other people on the board will say/do if they knew. People that are afraid others here will ruin their business and condemn them too.
I ask again, what fun is there to be had in hurting others. Maybe these people are doing the best they can under their circumstances. Give them a fair chance. You'd best be careful. Don't ever think that you would NEVER be in this position! How would you feel if what happened to them and their reputation happened to you?
Time is better spent worrying about our own backyards before we start looking into others.
_________________________
Dianne Kieffer
Heartland Gliders




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#686433 - 12/05/08 09:55 AM Re: flying fur ranch [Re: Srlb]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
Since I had a planned appt for four months on my time, I think I had some rights as to who was there while I visited don't you. I didn't drive there to Houston, but flew and my ticket cost over $300. My time was limited also. I did call Susan after I told Virginia to verify what I had said to Virginia as being OK
_________________________
ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL

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#686437 - 12/05/08 10:02 AM Re: flying fur ranch [Re: Srlb]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16734
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
Her WT's went to S and S exotics for example.


It was much more than just the WT's that went to S&S
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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