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#700112 - 12/27/08 06:29 PM Leu to Leu breeding
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
Okay, so people claim this is 'bad'
I don't see how this is any different then taking gray gliders and looking at that master chart for breeding and breeding one with it's 5th cousin (or to where it's 'safe' to breed them).

I did hear that leus have been inbred in the past and their genetic makeup is a bit unstable (supposedly) but I don't see what would be so terrible about breeding 2 Leus.

I have also never heard of anything terrible comming from doing such breeding.

There are 3 lines in the US.

Say I take gliders and outbreed with standard grays and keep doing so until my gliders are 10 generations, 20 generations from the fist Leus.
Then I take the leu from there and breed that Leu with another Leu that has been bred from the other lines 10-20 generations down with other grays and hets.

In my opinion with selective breeding this can be possible with no more health problems then gliders usually have.

I did see there was someone in the past trying this and i think they were shut down by the community (for some reason) I don't see why this should not be tried and documented. Without trying these kinds of things and selective breeding we can not gain more knowledge and will remain ignorant and keep asking 'what if'. All we know right now is "omg if we do this, it's bad, no no, slap on the wrist"

Has anyone actually studied this and did research etc to gain knowledge on this or do we just shun them when they suggest it?

I don't agree with people breeding leu to leu for money and charging full price for these gliders until it is known that these guys do not have health problems or other issues.

I am just curious as to if there has been significant research done about this or if everything we all know is speculation?

Thanks all :-)

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#700364 - 12/28/08 12:47 AM Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: GliderFun]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
To my knowledge, they aren't bred out that many generations to "create" different lines. In today's world, breeding a Leu on Leu, the genetics are too closely related; therefore running too great a risk for potential genetic health issues. JMO
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Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


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#700451 - 12/28/08 08:34 AM Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: GliderNursery]
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
Okay so there hasn't been someone that has bred out the lines to the point where it would be safe to breed leu to leu.
Thanks! That's what I thought. So it can be done but no one has taken the time to try it. Hmmm Thats exactly what I was wondering ! :-) thanks

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#700459 - 12/28/08 09:06 AM Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: GliderFun]
peace
Unregistered


I know nothing about breeding gliders but the Lue lines have not been around long enough to even consider what you you are wanting to do yet. It will take several more years before the lines would make it to be 10th gen.

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#700464 - 12/28/08 09:24 AM Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ]
Sqooky
Unregistered


If you breed the 3 lines together then eventually you end up with lines that are crossed and thus when you mate the descendents later you will be inbreeding. Theoretically it might not be a bad thing in the short term, but with there only being 3 lines of them that would concern me.

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#700467 - 12/28/08 09:27 AM Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ]
SugareeErin Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 3843
Loc: Lisle, Illinois
It is not that no one has tried it yet really. Responsible breeders are working very hard to breed out the lines! There are a few White to White pairing but they are looked down upon because they are too closely related. Like Peace said, it will be years before the lines are bred out enough.
_________________________

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#700475 - 12/28/08 10:09 AM Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: SugareeErin]
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
If you get 2 leus then they WILL be related at some point. If not, then one of them will have to have been inbred. There are only 3 lines and it takes 2 gliders with the leu gene to create a leu...soooo, unless the leus are inbred(from a brother/sister, for example) then that would mean they have to be from gliders each from different lines. Which means both leus would be from 2 lines...meaning that the leus would HAVE to be related by one of the lines. Get it?

Also, it would be impossible to get a leu that is 10-20 generations out without having the cross the lines at some point(or inbreed) in order to keep the leu gene going.

In other words, it's impossible to find 2 leus that aren't related(unless, like I said, one is just from 1 line due to inbreeding).

I don't understand why everyone is so obsessed with wanting to breed leu x leu. The only "bonus" to doing it is that every single joey they have will be a leu and if that's what everyone interested in leu x leu is after, then shame on you for caring more about money then the well-being of the gliders!
_________________________
~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin

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#700485 - 12/28/08 10:23 AM Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: Guerita135]
Sherri Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/06
Posts: 3826
Loc: Big Sandy TN
Nicely said Nicole!
_________________________
sherri

Forever home to a wide variety of animals, domestic, farm and exotic.
My passion is my little suggie sweethearts! 731-441-9814


http://www.newbysglidernook.com/index.html

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#700489 - 12/28/08 10:31 AM Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: Sherri]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Well said, Nicole!

The lines are not strong enough to warrant breeding two leus. It will be MANY years before that is possible.

Outbreeding can only strengthen the line. People need to look towards the FUTURE, not just the NOW!

Going out on a limb here ... it is ridiculous to expect someone who breeds for color to *only* care about the glider. Of course they are doing it for money, too! But, hopefully, their LOVE of gliders is fueling the breeding, not the love of money. If that is the case ... the gliders will win! And glider slaves will have increasingly strong lines to choose from!
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#700506 - 12/28/08 11:10 AM Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ValkyrieMome]
prettyinpink
Unregistered


Wow! Thank you for creating this post. This question has been on my mind also! smile
clap Learn something new everyday.. tounge

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#700511 - 12/28/08 11:14 AM Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: Sherri]
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
I am not 'obsessed' with getting leu babies, I am obsessed with the thought of new knowledge.

There are 3 lines. There is also inbreeding in one of the lines and they are still bred with no noted (as far as I know) problems from the offspring.

Breeding from the same family 10 generations down the line is not inbreeding.

Lets say I take a leu and het and get a leu and breed that leu out 10-15 generations and then breed back with the origional leu it would not be considered inbreeding because of how many decendents have passed between the 2 gliders.

It is considered safe once it passes about 5 or so generations. Breed out a little further for extra safety and you should be fine.

The issue I see with doing this is:

A) there are too many people that frown upon it because all they think is that people want to do this for money and for personal gain, when that is not the truth and they can't grasp their mind around that

B) *Some* People are not educated enough to make smart pairings and spread out the lines enough to where it would be safe to pair a leu to a leu.

C) People are too 'afraid' they will get rejected by the glider community for trying this so it never gets done (willful ignorance due to fear?) (i'm not sure if thats exactly what its called but i think you get it?)

I think people can do this if other people wouldn't shut them down when they try this. It is possible and we could use the knowledge


Edited by GliderFun (12/28/08 11:14 AM)

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#700521 - 12/28/08 11:24 AM Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: GliderFun]
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
And your welcome. I am also very curious about this topic and would love to work with a geneticist and figure this out with a professional in the field to get actual facts. I am going to try and seek one out from a local university

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#700566 - 12/28/08 12:46 PM Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: GliderFun]
GliderGuyVA Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 343
Loc: Northern VA.
Whether it's for money or not I think only responsible and kowelegable persons should attempt to do this. Is it really worth it? Maybe, maybe not, but I personally would not attempt it. I'll leave it up to the pro's to make that decision.
Great question by the way.
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My Wife
Four - Dogs
Two - Cat's
Four - Ferrets
Eight plus - Gliders

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#700594 - 12/28/08 01:39 PM Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: GliderGuyVA]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16743
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
It is considered safe once it passes about 5 or so generations.


Could you show me where you found this as factual information?

Every vet I have spoken with have all stated they do not consider anything being *safe* for at LEAST 8 generations.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#700602 - 12/28/08 01:44 PM Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: Srlb]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Peggy - you are over your PM limit!

I gotta contact you, girl! Clean 'em out!
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#700628 - 12/28/08 02:27 PM Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: GliderFun]
Celeste
Unregistered


Sadly, there are bad people out there who do mean things to animals, who see animals for money only. It's not as if they dont exist. Some people in the community still do it, despite it being considered 'bad'. I personally dont think its worth the risk of something happening to the gliders, waiting a few years to breed the lines out further isnt going to hurt anyone.

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#700640 - 12/28/08 02:46 PM Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ]
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
As for the person asking for info on the 5 OR SO... 8 is within my 'or so' i was just saying a generality.

I just thought that no matter how far out you breed people still think its 'bad' when really it's not and they are very misinformed.

Also looking real quickly because I'm working

there are places that show you can breed after 5 generations with no ill effects


I might be able to find more that say 5 generations but that isn't what is important as I was stating breeding out for 10 generations if you read my above post


Edited by GliderFun (12/28/08 04:40 PM)

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#700668 - 12/28/08 04:26 PM Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: GliderFun]
Sherri Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/06
Posts: 3826
Loc: Big Sandy TN
Ok, I'm not a breeder nor will ever be one, but why would someone want to do leu to leu to begin with? I just dont get it. There are so many leus already available. breeders are sometimes having a hard time selling the ones that they have now.
_________________________
sherri

Forever home to a wide variety of animals, domestic, farm and exotic.
My passion is my little suggie sweethearts! 731-441-9814


http://www.newbysglidernook.com/index.html

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#700727 - 12/28/08 06:22 PM Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: Sherri]
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: Sherri
Ok, I'm not a breeder nor will ever be one, but why would someone want to do leu to leu to begin with? I just dont get it. There are so many leus already available. Breeders are sometimes having a hard time selling the ones that they have now.


Unfortunately, people bree leu x leu because all they see is $$$$$ because when you breed 2 leus you will never get gray joeys, just ALL leus.

Because people see $$$, they go above and beyond to try and justify breeding leus together so that they don't have to feel bad about it. :\ True, nothing had ever been PROVEN with LEU GLIDERS to show that leu x leu is bad, but why risk it? It HAS been proven that leus and mosaics have a somewhat lowered immune system(I don't remember the whole story, so please don't quote me on it, lol, but from what I remember there was some type of mold at Sheila's because the food got wet while she was out-of-town and the only gliders that got sick were leus, leu hets, and mosaics...). So....if we know that little bit about leus, then why would anyone want to compromise them even MORE by breeding 2 leus together or even a leu and a 100% leu het?! *sigh*

My new saying, "When in doubt, just breed out!" grin
_________________________
~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin

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#700927 - 12/28/08 11:02 PM Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: Guerita135]
crazytanak
Unregistered


GliderFun, i so agree with you! people she knows it would take a LONG time to breed out 10-15 generations, but what she is saying is that no one is even trying to start the process of getting to those 10-15 generations down the line. Nicole, you think everyone is out there for money, you accused me of the same thing and i dont even breed. people with leus now cant sell them because all they want is money, and the majority of the community got mad at me cuz i want a leu for 500, not 1,800. that is more than i pay on bills in a month, including my morgage! the only people who want money is the people who wont try gliderfun's theory. by breeding a leu x leu you can get more leus, which everyone wants to buy, and you can lower the price so people can get what they truly want.

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#700935 - 12/28/08 11:12 PM Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
People ARE trying to breed "down the line."

That's exactly the point of the very careful leu breeding programs currently in place, crazytanak. That is exactly WHY leu to leu breeding is not good - because we are not AT 10 generations down the line.

You come in here with little knowledge, and raising suspicions, and, yes - people are going to question your intentions. Sorry - but we've seen it all! We've seen all the people breeding gliders as the latest "get rich quick" scheme.

Questions are always encouraged. Learn more about glider genetics. Learn more about what good, responsible breeders are doing to strengthen the genetics.
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#700946 - 12/28/08 11:24 PM Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ]
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
I never though of it like that Crazytanak.

Actually that makes sense.
We can actually turn it around on those not wanting to breed leu to leu and say, "hey, they don't want it done because if the supply goes up then the demand and price goes down and then they won't be able to sell leu's for 1500-2400 each!"

Also, as far as what happened at Sheilas, there were too many variables.
That shows very little if ANYTHING.

In an experiment there are variables and controls. In that, there were too many variables and not enough controls.
Sure all of the 'colored' gliders got sick.

Well, what really went on?
-Did the pet sitter leave the food in those cages longer because they didn't want those gliders to go hungry during the day?

-Was there a breeze where those gliders were kept?

-Were they given extra vitamins so that they would stay healthier?

-Were they treated any different compared to the other gliders?

-where were they kept compared to the other gliders?


It is ludacris to base EVERYTHING (including your 'fact' that the immune system of those particular gliders are worse (though I know you said you weren't sure)) on one incident.
If scientists did that then we would all be in BIG trouble.

The truth is, there is no extensive research done to prove or disprove that leus have shaky genes and bad immune systems. There has been NO scientific proof/evidence that breeding leu to leu would cause anymore health problems then breeding any other glider, has there?
Nothing I could find.

No one is even making an effort to find out facts, we're blindly listening to whoever made up this myth about breeding leu to leu being bad no matter what and that is very sad.

I say, how about doing some selective breeding and do some research before you spew wrong facts.

I would like to see someone or multiple breeders work together to breed out leu lines to where you can breed leu to leu.

Why yes, then the prices would go lower, and then more people would be able to afford them, and oh yes, breeders would be making LESS money on their babies. But it isn't about the money RIGHT so what's the big deal?
I breed and I am suggesting this research should be done, and I don't care if the price of Leu's goes down to the price of grays, especially if that means proving 'the man' (whoever made up the theory about breeding leu to leu is bad but never took the time out to test their THEORY).

*breath* (that's a lot to say) :-)

Any how, thinking about it more, I don't think all of those who want to breed leu to leu are in it for the money, at least not the smart ones. Once Leu to Leu breeding become widely accepted and more popular then breeders wont be making that much money on them thus, there would be nothing more to gain then from breeding grays.

But again, money is not important so I don't see why this isn't done.

Has anyone taken the steps to even make this possible?

Very controversial subject but I like to hear what everyone else has to say about this

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#700947 - 12/28/08 11:27 PM Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ValkyrieMome]
rbaby
Unregistered


Because of a few conversations on this forum and with breeders. I decided it best not to breed my girls, from a genetics standpoint as they have linebreeding on both sides, and are not matched without more of it. But I will eventually get another leu female and will breed out the lines. As it is a dream of mine to have joeys of my own someday. glider glider glider

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#700950 - 12/28/08 11:28 PM Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ]
Sherri Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/06
Posts: 3826
Loc: Big Sandy TN
Originally Posted By: crazytanak
by breeding a leu x leu you can get more leus, which everyone wants to buy, and you can lower the price so people can get what they truly want.


Therefore making more money by flooding the the market with more leu's. Thus creating lots of gliders out there with some major genetic defects that may not be detected yet because of leu x leu breeding.
_________________________
sherri

Forever home to a wide variety of animals, domestic, farm and exotic.
My passion is my little suggie sweethearts! 731-441-9814


http://www.newbysglidernook.com/index.html

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#700957 - 12/28/08 11:34 PM Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: GliderFun]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Originally Posted By: GliderFun
No one is even making an effort to find out facts, we're blindly listening to whoever made up this myth about breeding leu to leu being bad no matter what and that is very sad.

I say, how about doing some selective breeding and do some research before you spew wrong facts.

I would like to see someone or multiple breeders work together to breed out leu lines to where you can breed leu to leu.

It is not a *myth* that the leu gene pool is extremely limited.

Responsible breeders are doing JUST AS YOU SUGGEST! If you've done so much research, I'm surprised that you didn't discover this. The whole point of the current leu breeding program is to strengthen the lines to the point where leu to leu breeding would be possible!

It doesn't happen over night. And, because of what we *know* and have seen proven about mosaic breeding, if the lines are not strengthened before breeding leu to leu, we could seriously screw up the genetics. Then, we'll be trying to breed multiple generations to breed OUT the defects that were bred IN. As is happening in the mosaic lines.

Genetics is not a *myth* or a *theory*. It is a science. Those who understand the leu genetics are the ones I trust to breed out the lines.

I don't want someone experimenting when they know nothing of the history or the science involved. Just on a whim. BAD idea!
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#700958 - 12/28/08 11:34 PM Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ]
rbaby
Unregistered


GliderFun, In the future I would like to work on breeding out the leu lines with you. Someday... I love research as long as it is well founded and for the good of the animal species as a whole, ie tested theories. I had a convo earlier about breeding out sterile lines, this is another controvery for another topic though.

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#700959 - 12/28/08 11:35 PM Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: Sherri]
TheGliderPlayroom Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 02/24/04
Posts: 1594
Loc: Youngstown, Ohio
I gave away my last two leu babies for free, and I still think breeding leu to leu is a bad idea. It has nothing to do with the money or the prices.

I've spent years working on breeding out, and I'm just now getting to the point of having possible hets to put together and try to produce white again. There will be at least a trio of 50% hets, a 50% and 25% pair, and hopefully another pair of 50% hets (as long as another boy joey comes along!). Any leu joeys I get will be paired to normals, and any leu babies I sell will have a contract to breed only to a normal. I hate to spend years of my time and efforts, breeding out these spectacular lines, just to have people that want to benefit from my work by breeding leu to leu, or leu to 100% het. That is not at all why I've been doing this!
_________________________
Helen
The Glider Playroom
PSG/Sugar Glider Database
Vice-President of the NE.O.B.B.C.

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#700967 - 12/28/08 11:41 PM Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ValkyrieMome]
rbaby
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
Originally Posted By: GliderFun
No one is even making an effort to find out facts, we're blindly listening to whoever made up this myth about breeding leu to leu being bad no matter what and that is very sad.

I say, how about doing some selective breeding and do some research before you spew wrong facts.

I would like to see someone or multiple breeders work together to breed out leu lines to where you can breed leu to leu.

It is not a *myth* that the leu gene pool is extremely limited.

Responsible breeders are doing JUST AS YOU SUGGEST! If you've done so much research, I'm surprised that you didn't discover this. The whole point of the current leu breeding program is to strengthen the lines to the point where leu to leu breeding would be possible!

It doesn't happen over night. And, because of what we *know* and have seen proven about mosaic breeding, if the lines are not strengthened before breeding leu to leu, we could seriously screw up the genetics. Then, we'll be trying to breed multiple generations to breed OUT the defects that were bred IN. As is happening in the mosaic lines.

Genetics is not a *myth* or a *theory*. It is a science. Those who understand the leu genetics are the ones I trust to breed out the lines.

I don't want someone experimenting when they know nothing of the history or the science involved. Just on a whim. BAD idea!

thumb Alden I do understand genetics and promise you that I would be responsible if just starting out with gliders, it is good that you are so concerned, but sometimes your shouting scares me LOL. grin ooo

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#700969 - 12/28/08 11:42 PM Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: TheGliderPlayroom]
rbaby
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: TheGliderPlayroom
I gave away my last two leu babies for free, and I still think breeding leu to leu is a bad idea. It has nothing to do with the money or the prices.

I've spent years working on breeding out, and I'm just now getting to the point of having possible hets to put together and try to produce white again. There will be at least a trio of 50% hets, a 50% and 25% pair, and hopefully another pair of 50% hets (as long as another boy joey comes along!). Any leu joeys I get will be paired to normals, and any leu babies I sell will have a contract to breed only to a normal. I hate to spend years of my time and efforts, breeding out these spectacular lines, just to have people that want to benefit from my work by breeding leu to leu, or leu to 100% het. That is not at all why I've been doing this!


This sound like the route I'd take.

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#700977 - 12/28/08 11:50 PM Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Originally Posted By: rbaby
but sometimes your shouting scares me LOL. grin ooo

I am not aware of shouting. I sometimes try to post with emphasis, and I don't use the italics or bold or underline or what not, so I capitalize a few scattered words for emphasis. Is that what you are referring to? I'm sorry if I've scared you. It is so far from who I am, it is almost amusing. Scary is not a word people use to describe me!
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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