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#705441 - 01/04/09 09:05 AM bonding method debate
thefotokat Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1360
Loc: Ft. Pierce, FL
Per requests, I'm starting a separate topic. There are many different bonding methods. Not one of them is a sure fire success w/every glider. However, I do want to make some important points that should be considered.

What is normal behavior? We have to be sure we are not trying to change a glider's normal behavior to suit our desires for a more handleable pet. Gliders crab. It's a natural action and should not be mistaken as abberant behavior.

Time and patience. It is important to allow a glider time to get accustomed to any change in their lives. Stress is a huge factor. Moving the cage to a new room is enough to upset some gliders. Some gliders have such extreme anxiety that the addition or removal of a toy can cause problems. We must allow time...whether it be days, weeks or months. Trust is something that must be earned. It is not freely given.

Each glider is an individual. Not every glider bonds or gives trust to the same degree. Some gliders will be bra babies, some will climb on their people. Some gliders will not. Some prefer to have their out of cage time to play w/toys and explore and don't want to be touched or held. We must accept the glider for who it is and not force our expectations onto them.

We must find the "why" of behavior. Was the glider every injured? Was food withheld? These are some questions whose answers can lead you to the best way to help that glider.

The value of enrichment. Gliders are intelligent and active. They need avenues to express and encourage mental and physical activity. Not every glider likes the same types of toys, pouches, food, etc. We must invest the effort to discover what is best for that glider. Observation and trying different things and watch the glider's reaction to it. A toy is worthless if the glider won't play w/it. W/out the correct enrichment, a glider has nothing to do but eat and sleep. Stress can build and physical and behavior problems can be brought on.

There are extreme cases that do require more extreme methods to help the glider, BUT one must be sure that is the case. Extreme methods should not be used simply to change behavior that is undesirable to the human, yet is normal for the glider.

Put yourself in the glider's life. Why are you acting the way you are? Are you afraid? Are you hurt? Figuring out the why is the first step. Don't be afraid to spend time...a lot of it. Some gliders take months to learn to trust you. They have to learn that you are safe and that you mean them no harm. I believe that positive reinforcement is the avenue in which to accomplish that. It is worth the wait.
_________________________
Kate
SouthEast Sugar Gliders
SESG Rescue and Sanctuary
SECARES
Go To The Vet!!!

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#705448 - 01/04/09 09:49 AM Re: bonding method debate [Re: thefotokat]
jacknsally Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/30/05
Posts: 3224
Loc: North Fort Worth - TX
It is with any wild animal species- you can take them out of the wild but you can't take the wild out of them. There are some who will hold onto that wild part and never let go, and then there are others if caught at the right time, you'd never know they were a wild animal.

Kate- your starting post is excellent. It touches on every aspect. All your tips and points don't just apply to rescue/rehomes, some joey's straight from their parents have these same issues.

With any bonding technique, the first step is to build trust. If you don't have trust, you will not make any progress. When gliders feel safer in their home or pouch, and you take that away from them, how are you building trust? You just took the one security away from them.

Me personally, I feel the (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets is the most extreme method of building a bond & trust with gliders. It should be the last resort of countless time & patience in other bonding techniques. I don't feel it's the technique to use on a newly acquired glider, neither of you have gotten to know each other. I am speaking from experience, I've tried the (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets. It was not the way to get through to my gliders that some say needed it- so call me a coward but with the time, patience, love and undestanding, I have had break throughs on gliders who were living in fear.
_________________________
Ñancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique

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#705464 - 01/04/09 10:30 AM Re: bonding method debate [Re: jacknsally]
TWilson
Unregistered


I've had a little of everything. Some were just crabby joeys, others were unsocialized and some trauma cases.

My Tony was a traumatized glider, he was used for breeding and from what I gathered was a great dad. He loved his babies and couldn't take being separated from them. He got mean when they were pulled, he bit his owner....he went after her and any other person for that matter. His previous owner would take the mom and the joeys out and play with them, she became scared of him and would toss packets of KFC honey in the cage to divert him while she got the family out.
Tony came to me when she advertised looking for a glider boot camp, she wanted him shipped off somewhere. I told her I would take him and she drove 5 hours the next day to dump him off at my house.
That was the maddest glider I've ever seen, he would not only come after you, but he turned on himself too. He ripped his hair out in chunks!!!! He freaked out over the simplest of things such as moviing one toy in his cage. I had to buy double of everything that was in his cage and when I changed out with others, they had to go back into the same place.
Taking him to the vet for a check and neuter, caused him to tear himself a mohawk. He was so pitiful and it was heartbreaking but I worked with him slowly. His pouch was his safety zone, he needed that. If I'd used an open type of pouch for him, there is no doubt in my mind that I would have had a dead glider on my hands.
After working with him, gaining his trust and calming him down, I was able to intro him with a sweet little girl. Between me and her, he no longer rips his hair, I can put different toys in different places and he now loves exploring new things. He still didn't want to be on me, he will come to me, take treats, and is not angry anymore. All this HAD to be done slowly, with love and patience.

The other night, I was in the room with Tony and Carm giving treats, and Tony came and got his but didn't scamper off, he stayed. Carm got on my arm and ate her treat there. The light I have in the room is a blue light and it takes my eyes a minute to adjust to the lighting to be able to see well. When "Tony" came back for another treat, I realized it was CARM, Tony was the one on my arm!!!!!!!
I cried tears of joy!!!!!!!!!!!

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#705466 - 01/04/09 10:31 AM Re: bonding method debate [Re: jacknsally]
Lizz
Unregistered


I agree with Nancy. The PP pouch should be used as a last resort and only if all else fails without any progress at all. i think a good idea would be to make a pouch that is very shallow, instead of using one that has no pouch in it at all. make it deep enough for her to hide in but shallow enough so that you can see her and she can see you, and so that you don't have to stick your hand down into a dark hole of death...just an idea though laugh

I'm glad to hear about the successes of the Pouch protective pouch, but I agree that gliders need to be given time anf owners need to have patience with them.

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#705471 - 01/04/09 10:36 AM Re: bonding method debate [Re: ]
jacknsally Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/30/05
Posts: 3224
Loc: North Fort Worth - TX
Originally Posted By: Lizz
I agree with Nancy. The PP pouch should be used as a last resort and only if all else fails without any progress at all. i think a good idea would be to make a pouch that is very shallow, instead of using one that has no pouch in it at all. make it deep enough for her to hide in but shallow enough so that you can see her and she can see you, and so that you don't have to stick your hand down into a dark hole of death...just an idea though laugh

I'm glad to hear about the successes of the Pouch protective pouch, but I agree that gliders need to be given time anf owners need to have patience with them.


You just described my Lounging Hammock- it does exactly just that and I have one in use right now. We have started making progress, again though it's one of those slow and steady steps, no over night miracles.
_________________________
Ñancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique

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#705482 - 01/04/09 10:51 AM Re: bonding method debate [Re: jacknsally]
Lizz
Unregistered


could you send me a pic? I'd like to see what it looks like...unless it's on your website?

EDIT:: Yeah, it's on your website. That's really neat! I made a no sew pouch like that .


Edited by Lizz (01/04/09 10:52 AM)

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#705486 - 01/04/09 11:05 AM Re: bonding method debate [Re: ]
Lizz
Unregistered


Her are some pics of the pouch I made. Deep enough for her to hide in but shallow enough so that I can see her and so she just has to stick her head up to see out. I just put her in there, and she hasn't crabbed at me once!! In the other pouch, the littlest noise and she was crabbing and lunging.

Oh, and don't mind the small cage, she doesn't live in it, I just put her in there so she can be out in the main house with me and get exposed to sights and sounds. Oh yeah, and that's a joey in the pouch with her as well.

I was supposed to keep them a secret until the SSS but I feel like I need to bring them up now. The mother was attacked by her mate and hada very bad mating wound, and she's been very traumatized. I haven't official declared her pouch protective but she certainly does act like it! that's all I'm saying for now, the whole suprise isn't ruined yet so we'll see laugh


Attachments
SANY0527.JPG

SANY0528.JPG

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#705646 - 01/04/09 02:24 PM Re: bonding method debate [Re: ]
MatchMakerMagic Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 2785
Loc: Port Saint Lucie, FL
In my experience I've seen many different kinds of behavioral situations. From both extremely traumatic emotional abuse to starting a joey from day 1 OOP. And I can say that EACH glider I've had has at some point exhibited some form of the "symptoms" of a PP glider for whatever reason. Should I have not known to look a little further into each situation I may have dubbed a few of them "pouch protective" - when in reality they were just reacting normally for THAT particular glider. Each glider though has come around, even the ones that could of been labeled "pouch protective" by definition.

I think there needs to be clear distinction between a glider that is just scared and reacting in such a way because of normal reasons (new family, new pets in the home, any number of reasons, etc), or TRULY pouch protective.

As far as the PP pouch technique, I don't agree with taking away area's for the gliders to hide. Even gliders with security blankets (like hiding places) are capable of bonding, and learning trust. It just takes time and patience in my experience. Watching a glider run around in fear because they have no place to hide would just be very sad for me. People new to gliders could mistake this form of "bonding" or "trust building" as a protocol and use it (or perhaps misuse it) without the individual guidance that is recommended. As I understand it what one does with the PP pouch and in conjunction with it is tailored for each individual? But the pouches are available for sale to anyone, making the use of them open to ANY interpretation.
_________________________
Kinue

ISTJ
When it rains, it pours...

www.serenitysugargliders.homestead.com

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#705675 - 01/04/09 02:54 PM Re: bonding method debate [Re: MatchMakerMagic]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
It is so obvious to me that most of you have no idea about the full concept of the use of the (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets and the "methods" being used. I see closed minds at work here that are not willing to accept that there is no one specific set of rules being used with these gliders.

It is NOT BLACK AND WHITE. Each glider and owner is using "techniques" specifically for THEIR SITUATION. The gliders are not being traumatized. Chasing a scared glider around the cage is NOT being advised or suggested, quite the opposite. The gliders are not being forced at all to do anything that THEY don't want to do and they are getting to work at the GLIDER'S pace and not being rushed into anything.

Also, the (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets is designed so that it can be adjusted as to how "open" it is. It can hang on the side of the cage where it is closed like a regular pouch or it can go full open where it is like a hammock. It does have about an inch to an inch and a half sewn on the sides at the bottom to create a shallow pouch of sorts. The reason for this design is so that each pouch can be adjusted for each glider's specific needs and stage with the goal of having it all the way closed in the long run (how ever long it takes for each individual glider) and then transition them over to a regular cage pouch, tent or whatever works for THAT individual glider and owner.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#705685 - 01/04/09 03:07 PM Re: bonding method debate [Re: Dancing]
MatchMakerMagic Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 2785
Loc: Port Saint Lucie, FL
I understand what your saying Dancing. And I didn't see anywhere where someone said gliders were being chased around the cage? Or that there was one set way the PP is used?

Can't speak on the behalf of anyone else, but I sure try to view everything with an open mind. I read the threads where people are posting their experiences with the PP method. And without finding exact quotes I've seen where they've taken the gliders things out and the glider is running around the cage frantically looking for somewhere to hide, and the owner feels bad for the glider.

In MY opinion (which no one has to agree with) there are other ways to bond with a glider, other ways to earn the trust of a glider than having a scared glider running around their cage looking for somewhere to hide. I like a more stress-free/gentler approach personally.

Just like you said, I did say that each person is "coached" on the appropriate way to use the PP pouch in their own situations. But I did think that a person new to gliders might just make the purchase (the PP pouch) and go off of their own observations of others experiences:

Quote:
People new to gliders could mistake this form of "bonding" or "trust building" as a protocol and use it (or perhaps misuse it) without the individual guidance that is recommended. As I understand it what one does with the PP pouch and in conjunction with it is tailored for each individual? But the pouches are available for sale to anyone, making the use of them open to ANY interpretation.
_________________________
Kinue

ISTJ
When it rains, it pours...

www.serenitysugargliders.homestead.com

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#705701 - 01/04/09 03:43 PM Re: bonding method debate [Re: MatchMakerMagic]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
I am the proud mommy to 5 delightfully different gliders!

I learned long ago as the mom to 5 sons that each one is different. Things that worked well with one - did not work at all with the others. For example, each one developed his own method of falling asleep at night #1 sucked his fingers and carried a blankie, #2 could not keep himself still so I learned to put my hand on his back and rock him until he relaxed enough to sleep. #3 would not sleep when the house was quiet - he got a radio on in his room all night, #4 was my pacifier baby from day 1 even in the newborn nursery, #5 was the rocking chair kid - would not sleep unless I rocked him for 5 minutes - rarely longer.

I look at my gliders the same way. They are my new babies. It is my job as their mommy to learn FROM THEM what makes them the most comfortable. Just like skin kids - it is a matter of reading their cues to see what makes them the most comfortable.

Sassy and Corky were both 8 wks OOP when I adopted them. Sassy barely crabbed at all and would let me pick her up out of the pouch to put her in a bonding pouch with in a couple of days. Corky crabbed when disturbed but if he had a yogie in his hand/mouth he would let me take him out of the pouch. (Funny sounds crabbing with a mouthful and squeeking between bites. I loved it)

Missy and Mehitabel joined the family two months later at 8 & 9 weeks OOP respectively. Missy is a sweetheart and loves to be picked up and cuddled in my hands. I was told by Lisa at Suncoast, when I picked them up that Mehitabel was going to need "A lot of work". Lisa had even had her nephew carrying this baby around in a bonding pouch several hours more than all the other babies because she was SO Crabby. Mehitabel was one loud little glider. She would literally stand up in the pouch like a little ninja. Fingers with licky treats.... she bit first and asked questions about the treat later. I knew she was going to be a challenge.

So I watched Missy & Mehitabel carefully the first few days I had them when they were exploring the cage. Mehitabel was really the SHY one. If she had a piece of food - Missy would just walk up and take it from her hand. She got this surprised look on her face and went to get another bite - then she would take it someplace and hide to eat it, behind the wheel, back in the pouch any where she could finish the piece of food. I gave them multiple plates so both ate well but I learned that Mehitabel WAS NOT THE AGRESSIVE GLIDER she pretended to be.

Putting a hand in their pouch was just plain dangerous. I switched to hanging bonding pouches (mine have clips no strings) in the cage. This let Mehitabel look out the window when I talked to her before opening the cage to see that I was coming. I could then zip the pouch and take them out to be carried. So I learned from her that this helped her accept being taken out of the cage.

Mehitabel still after 2 months does not like hands coming into the pouch. I carry them all together (currently the quad - Sassy, Corky, Missy & Mehitabel) to the tent in their sleeping pouch. I roll the top down and Corky is always first to come out to play. Sassy is next and goes looking for the treat jar. Missy comes out next and always runs up to my left shoulder and purrs in my ear. Mehitabel - stays in the pouch but lets me roll it down almost flat. I talk to her, give her a treat (Sassy will open the container & help herself if I do not give them each a yogie) then Mehitabel runs up to the corner of the tent where she watches everyone play. Twenty or thirty minutes later she is ready to join in, comes to sit on my lap and is just as lovey as the others - when she is ready.

My newest glider, Archy is still in solitary confinement - 1 more week to go on his 30 days but his neuter is 2 weeks away so he gets to play with mommy alone for a while longer. He joined the family in December at 4 months OOP. He has no problem with me picking him up out of the pouch. He even seems to like to be held in my hands (the others like to be petted not held). I think he will be the sweetest of the bunch when he gets to move in with them in a month or so but Archy & I are still getting to know each other.

The point of this long post is that EACH of my gliders (like my kids) are very much individuals. If they crab, I assume that what ever I just did was something that made them uncomfortable, at that moment. I have to pay attention to their responses and habits to see what they like to do. The more independent they get during tent time the more I see their habits. So I know what makes them comfortable and what does not.

Part of the joy of having my 5 little babies is learning more about their personalities each day. bonding is really a growing trust between each of them and myself. It happens on their time and cannot be forced. When Mehitabel takes 20 minutes before she comes to me in the tent instead of 30 or more - that is my progress. Eventually she may have a favorite spot on me to go first, as Missy does, but again maybe not. That is up to her.

Life with gilders is a constant learning process for me.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#705713 - 01/04/09 03:59 PM Re: bonding method debate [Re: CandyOtte]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
Another point also has me concerned about the advice to new owners to use the PP pouch.

As stated earlier in this thread - many new owners are led to believe their scared, crabbing new joey must be pouch protective and needs to begin the PP pouch method in order to begin bonding.

The unfortunate situation is that a new owner who asks for help with bonding has been advised all too frequently that this is the approach they must use. This advice is very often coming from other relatively NEW OWNERS who have also decided their new joey is pouch protective because it crabs when they try to hold it.

At least one of the folks posting advice to new owners on how to bond with their giders only JOINED GC in SEPTEMBER 2008 and does not yet have a glider of her own - but has made enough posts to get the SENIOR GLIDER MEMBER designation. This can be very misleading to a new glider owner who thinks this individual's advice is based on experience - not just someone who is repeating information she has read on the boards.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#705737 - 01/04/09 04:32 PM Re: bonding method debate [Re: CandyOtte]
DelilahsMom
Unregistered


Have any of you here actually talked to Bourbon. She will ask many questions. Such as, what triggers your glider. You answer and she say's "try again". She makes you think about the issues that are the root. She doesn't say, "put a (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets in there and everything will be okay." She says hey, try this. You do while you are on the phone with her, then tell her what happened. Then based on your gliders response, she will tell you to continue, discontinue or modify.

The gliders enrichment has never been taken away. Their cages are not stripped of everything but food and (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets.

I'm so sick of people putting this method down. Especially if you have never tried it or just got your first pair of suggies.

My 2 males were not PP until they were intro'd to 2 girls. Then all 4 became very PP. I wish I had chronicalled my journey on video.

The gliders using the (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets hopefully can transition into a regular pouch one day. Mine can't yet, but they still have an awesome pouch, designed by my girlfriend that suits their needs. They are so much happier now than they were 2 months ago. (Or is that too fast for some of you)

For a bunch of people that are here for the "good of the glider", I would think you would embrance anything that helped better a gliders life.

Would it be better if I just left my 4 rescues in a cage and never touched them, talked to them or did anything to give them a great quality of life?

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#705743 - 01/04/09 04:45 PM Re: bonding method debate [Re: ]
thefotokat Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1360
Loc: Ft. Pierce, FL
Yes, I have talked to her and yes I have listened to this technique be explained. This is simply a difference of opinion on bonding method. No one will agree and no one needs to. I'm trying to point out that we should not be trying to change a glider's "normal" behavior. Try to put yourself in the shoes of someone brand new to online forums. They have a glider that is doing well, but does crab when they touch the pouch. There is no "bad" behavior. They come here and read about all these gliders who crab being put into this pouch and at least some of their possessions being taken away. Couldn't they easily think that there is something wrong w/their glider because of a normal behavior? I'm trying to show that positive reinforcement can and does work very well w/many gliders. That is my opinion. A few months ago, an introduction method was discussed here. 2 "strangers" were introduced under extremely stressful circumstances...I believe it was in a shower. I felt that was cruel and it was rushing something (introductions) that should not be rushed. I guess that having and voicing a differing opinon can be viewed as negative, but it's simply a different way of looking at things.


Edited by thefotokat (01/04/09 04:48 PM)
_________________________
Kate
SouthEast Sugar Gliders
SESG Rescue and Sanctuary
SECARES
Go To The Vet!!!

Top
#705746 - 01/04/09 04:53 PM Re: bonding method debate [Re: ]
MatchMakerMagic Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 2785
Loc: Port Saint Lucie, FL
Originally Posted By: DelilahsMom
Have any of you here actually talked to Bourbon. She will ask many questions. Such as, what triggers your glider. You answer and she say's "try again". She makes you think about the issues that are the root. She doesn't say, "put a PPP in there and everything will be okay." She says hey, try this. You do while you are on the phone with her, then tell her what happened. Then based on your gliders response, she will tell you to continue, discontinue or modify.


I think Kate said with any bonding method its important to first try and figure out the "why" a glider is acting the way it is.

Originally Posted By: DelilahsMom
The gliders enrichment has never been taken away. Their cages are not stripped of everything but food and PPP.


Since you mention it, if you go here:
http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/676642/1

It has some pictures of a before and after cage (as well as other descriptions of cages "taken everything out, even their wheel" sorry it was taken literally dunno ), where most everything is taken out. Yes there are two hanging toys.

Originally Posted By: DelilahsMom
I'm so sick of people putting this method down. Especially if you have never tried it or just got your first pair of suggies.


I dont think anyone is "putting down" this method here. They are just voicing their preference for a different way of gaining a gliders trust. There are several ways to bond with gliders, many. Not any one is the only way.

Originally Posted By: DelilahsMom
My 2 males were not PP until they were intro'd to 2 girls. Then all 4 became very PP. I wish I had chronicalled my journey on video.

The gliders using the PPP hopefully can transition into a regular pouch one day. Mine can't yet, but they still have an awesome pouch, designed by my girlfriend that suits their needs. They are so much happier now than they were 2 months ago. (Or is that too fast for some of you).


Im very happy to hear you've found a method that is working for you and your gliders. And there is NO time limit for when bonding/trust should happen. It should be at their own pace - no matter how long that may be. smile


Originally Posted By: DelilahsMom
Would it be better if I just left my 4 rescues in a cage and never touched them, talked to them or did anything to give them a great quality of life?


Being someone that works with rescues who often times have emotional issues, that would sadden me. frown

But that isn't what is being suggested here. Taking the time a glider needs to adjust to their new surroundings/people does not mean to leave a glider in their cage and never touch or talk to them. frown
_________________________
Kinue

ISTJ
When it rains, it pours...

www.serenitysugargliders.homestead.com

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#705751 - 01/04/09 05:00 PM Re: bonding method debate [Re: MatchMakerMagic]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
Quote:
just make the purchase (the PP pouch) and go off of their own observations of others experiences:


just like someone telling others to get a tent and go buy a bonding pouch without the person being talked to indivually, as to how to properly use them..

well lets go there then, this is a bonding technique debate.. so lets play..

for starts for those that don't know me, I have been in the GLIDER community for over 16 years, I have worked not only with the trust building and bonding of thousands of gliders over those years, but also with medical, diets, etc..

My heart and my passion and most of the last 2 decades of my life have been dedicated to "GLIDERS" oh yeah by the way I also have an autistic grandson who requires special care , and behavioral training, who also lives with the basic animal instinct of fight or flight when he is in mode,.

I have run rescues and ran a rescue home for over 10 years, with great success of not having an overload of gliders into my care, they are rehabbed and placed.

I run a behavior rehab rescue home for rescues with special behavioral problems, I teach them to trust people and then they are placed into permanent homes where the owners continue with the training of how to work with their gliders,

I place gliders after the owners come to my home and work with them, learn their issues, and have resources to request help.

I have over the years developed different bonding techniques, used many of the ones available and will continue the trial and error till I have something that we can put into a book, I work with all kinds of gliders from basic pouch protective gliders to pit bull biters, rippers and those that are truly out of control.

now I have placed my experience out here for all to see, be sure to place your each of you.

now to the issue at hand, you don't like the pouch protective pouch.. don't use it. you are worried about what someone may do with it. well many owners that I work with I start off with a phone conversation of 2 hours plus for each one. During that time, I get in tune wiyth those owners, find out what they have already tried and find out at what point they are at now. then we , the owner and I developed a plan, that plan is simple, and starts them out very slow, it's purpose is to get them to trust their glider, understand their glider, start seeing life through their eyes.

Did you know that most people that have come to me, have already tried all the other methods?

Did you know that most gliders are chased around the room, the first time it "escapes"

Did you know the average owner takes a crabbing glider from it's pouch to stick into a bonding pouch?

Did you know many owners try to play with their glider the first day they get them?

I am sure you know that "MOST" new owners do this.. why??? because of lack of education on the breeders, rescue homes and the people on the boards fail to tell them otherwise.

read the posts, it is there, let the glider go, let them get used to you, give them time, it takes awhile. try a tent it works great, carry them in a bonding pouch..

these are the words that are used, all I have read from your group is other techniques, but nothing constructive is being written..

all the above is great advice, but who is taking these new owners by the hand and SHOWING them the right way to do things?

Nancy has her hammock, and it works but nothing miraculous according to her, Nancy call me, I can help you, then you decide.

I work individually with each and every person, one on one, many hours per day many times per week, in fact daily I am in contact with them.

"the removal of ALL their things" is ludicrous and anyone that knows me, KNOWS I would never hurt a glider mentally or physically, and if that is what you want people to believe, then that is your bad. someone very close to me today told me. it isn't about what a few others think, it is about what you feel is right in your own heart.

do I think different? maybe, but here is what I have found to be fact.. crabbing is a sign of fear, if that is mistaken for grumpiness, then you must start listening to your gliders more. The gliders make up to 50 different sounds, each meaning something different.

Did you know once your glider stops crabbing, that the only time you hear them crab after that , they are totally petrified.

crabbing is not a good sign, and to allow a glider to crab for long periods of time (days, weeks, months, years. is far more cruel than anything else I have seen or dealt with.

I have worked with owners who tell me their gliders are "vocal" because they crab, till they know it is them. but are okay with that. Me I am not, If you live in a situation where you have crabbing, lunging biters, and think that is okay, then again, you need to look at the gliders eyes, start paying attention to their body language, to their feelings, to their reactions. and tell me which one seems less afraid.

if you are holding your glider and it is crabbing, don't do it, they are afraid.. If you take them out of the pouch and put them into a bonding pouch, and they are crabbing, they are afraid. stop, back up, start at the beginning, take the time to let the glider get to know you, your movements, your voice and the good things, your hands provide to them.

as for the older methods, and the most commonly suggested techniques, mine included, NONE of them is good with a direction, Val you and Kate run rescue homes, it is not our job to bond with these gliders, but it is our job to teach them to trust so that they can bond with their new owners. your methods may take weeks, months and years. maybe you have the space time and money to wait that long, but I don't and won't. I won't sit back and think it is okay for a glider to crab for months before a method works, when I can accomplish the same thing in a very short period of time, and the glider is fine with it.

using words like cruel, stockholme syndrom, and evil.. is not the basis for any of the techniques.

use a technique that works for you, your time contra int your ability and your expectations.

I have one goal, it is that the gliders are no longer afraid, the "bonding" is is between the gliders and the owners and that is something that takes time. each glider reaches their own level, each owner, understands that not all gliders reach the same levels as others. but ALL of the gliders are able to be fed, they do not crab, they do not lunge, and guess what, they do not run from their owners, in fact it is the opposite, they come to their owners, and play on them , with them.

The average time to get the crabbing and lunging to stop is 3-5 days. the average time these people are working directly with me on their plan, is about 2 months. the gliders lead their owners, they let their owners know when it is time to move forward.

these owners I am working with , don't chase their glider under ANY circumstance, they don't make their glider do any thing they are not ready to do. it is ALL done at the gliders pace.

now I will address any and all issues on any and all bonding techniques, as to why they could be detrimental without direction.
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#705757 - 01/04/09 05:17 PM Re: bonding method debate [Re: Bourbon]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
Kinue.. let me start with your concerns..

Quote:
I think Kate said with any bonding method its important to first try and figure out the "why" a glider is acting the way it is.


The problem is many times we deal with rescues, there is not a cut and dry reason why they react the way they do, all we can do is speculate. like a previous owner is going to step right up and say.. hmm I smacked my glider in the cage cause he bit me, or I threw my glider across the room cause he bit me...

So since many times we don't have that history, we can only start from where we are, based on their reactions to different things and different environments.. only in a perfect world will we have all the answers.

Quote:

It has some pictures of a before and after cage (as well as other descriptions of cages "taken everything out, even their wheel" sorry it was taken literally dunno ), where most everything is taken out. Yes there are two hanging toys.


did you look at what was there before, lots of places to hide in, and yes those were removed, wheels are removed if they are wodents, because of the front cover, hanging toys are fine, and bridges, hammocks, foraging toys, ropes walks most have used their bridges as their temp pouches, when you first remove the items depending on what you have filled your cage with, it may seem naked.. things like coconut huts, tunnels, triangles, cubes etc.. have been removed.

anyone know who made the first pouch for a glider that has been here in the states? in the wild they don't have all that stuff, but they do use holes in their trees, 300 foot in the air. where they don't see people, and where they don't hear activity going on right outside of their hole.

Quote:

I dont think anyone is "putting down" this method here. They are just voicing their preference for a different way of gaining a gliders trust.


yes the purpose of this thread and the infiltration of the other thread was to put it down, calling the method cruel, and mind control, and other offenses phrases was not to suggest there are other methods.

there are other methods, and I use many of them, these people on the thread, have started that thread, as a support for each other, to update everyone in the group as to their own progress. if people have progress with their gliders they are going to recommend what they have tried that works, much the same as you, kate, and val is going to suggest to others what has worked for you.

Quote:

Im very happy to hear you've found a method that is working for you and your gliders. And there is NO time limit for when bonding/trust should happen. It should be at their own pace - no matter how long that may be


if you listen to what everyone in that thread is saying, they are trying to tell you, they are going at the gliders pace, they can not move forward till the glider wants them to, the gliders lead the program. there is no time limit or element, and each of these people are willing to wait for their glider, at their gliders pace.
_________________________
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#705760 - 01/04/09 05:22 PM Re: bonding method debate [Re: Bourbon]
jacknsally Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/30/05
Posts: 3224
Loc: North Fort Worth - TX
Well Bourbon you must have forgotten because I did go to you for help, well over 2yrs ago with my Candy & Chase- you told me I need the (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets- so you had one sent to me, I was one of the first one's to get one. All that was told to me was take anything out that they can hide in or behind. So I did, I then called you and told you how freaked out they were and how they were reacting and that I gave them back their pouch- I don't remember your exact words but it was more along the lines that I was a coward I didn't try enough.

I'm glad to see it sounds like you've changed how you handle the (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets gliders and their owners. I was fairly new in to rescueing and you didn't offer no step by step plan to help me make a break through with building trust with Candy & Chase.

Now I have Miley, I won't even tempt to use the (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets with her- it doesn't work for me. yeah I'm using the hammock- you know why, I don't NEED an overnight miracle with gliders.

So Deliahsmom- there's the answer to your question, yes some of us have talked to Bourbon and have tried the (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets. Just like diets, cages and anything else out there related to gliders- their not for everyone but everyone is allowed their opinions and experiences to be voiced- not just the positive one's at that.
_________________________
Ñancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


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#705766 - 01/04/09 05:28 PM Re: bonding method debate [Re: Bourbon]
jacknsally Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/30/05
Posts: 3224
Loc: North Fort Worth - TX
Originally Posted By: Bourbon


there are other methods, and I use many of them, these people on the thread, have started that thread, as a support for each other, to update everyone in the group as to their own progress. if people have progress with their gliders they are going to recommend what they have tried that works, much the same as you, kate, and val is going to suggest to others what has worked for you.



But it has been said over and over each glider and their owners (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets plan is different, so why bother recommending what works because in actuality- that's why you won't just list the steps publicly- you say each glider is different.
_________________________
Ñancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique

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#705767 - 01/04/09 05:28 PM Re: bonding method debate [Re: Bourbon]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
Kate
Quote:
I'm trying to show that positive reinforcement can and does work very well w/many gliders.


it does and is used very heavily in this plan and programn, the first thing we do is remove the things that makes the glider afraid.

if you walked by the cage, shuffling papers and your gliders start crabbing and biting their pouch.. what do you do??

continue the rustling, of notice it, stop the rustling and tell them your sorry, my money is on the second choice.

this is exactly what we do with everything that causes fear amongst our gliders, then we work on the safe factor, positive reinforcement, treats, calm talking, no assertive moves,

you have assumed the things we have removed from the cage, are things the gliders have chosen for themselves, give them a choice of high activity items in the cage and a closed pouch.. most gliders would prefer the high activity "enrichment items..

by the way enrichment things in the cage, are things that reproduce what they would do in the wild, climbing, foraging, running jumping etc.. offer tail carriers items to play with.. these are enrichment items, and they are all allowed in the cage..

by the way, things are added back to the cage as the gliders progress.

but me personally, I wouldn't make my glider sleep in a place where they are afraid. and yes if they crab in their pouch they are afraid, afraid of the unknown, sounds they can not identify, movements of the cage, etc..

pouch protective gliders, do not actually protect their pouch, they are afraid of things they hear and can not see.

commonly seen when the glider is out of the pouch they are fine, happy, sweet etc..
_________________________
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#705770 - 01/04/09 05:30 PM Re: bonding method debate [Re: Bourbon]
TWilson
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Bourbon
well lets go there then, this is a bonding technique debate.. so lets play..


This is a debate and that is how we learn things and share ideas, thoughts and theories, I don't think I'd call that playing but whatever....
Have to go and tend to my gliders, but I'll be back to share some of my thoughts soon. smile

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#705772 - 01/04/09 05:32 PM Re: bonding method debate [Re: Bourbon]
MatchMakerMagic Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 2785
Loc: Port Saint Lucie, FL
Originally Posted By: Bourbon
now to the issue at hand, you don't like the pouch protective pouch.. don't use it. you are worried about what someone may do with it.


I have no issue with the pouch itself. I worry when enrichment is removed from a gliders life. I know how important it is in my gliders lives, everyday. And if removed I know the stress it would cause. What exactly are they allowed to have? Only toys that cannot be hidden in right? For how long does this continue?


Originally Posted By: Bourbon
I am sure you know that "MOST" new owners do this.. why??? because of lack of education on the breeders, rescue homes and the people on the boards fail to tell them otherwise.

read the posts, it is there, let the glider go, let them get used to you, give them time, it takes awhile. try a tent it works great, carry them in a bonding pouch..


I've seen the posts, I know there is bad information out there - as well as good. But I do agree a glider needs to go at THEIR own pace. They should determine how quickly bonding/trust building go. Not the other way around. Especially not the cases where its a rescue who may have a awful damaged emotional past. In my experience it is they who need the most care taken.

Originally Posted By: Bourbon
I work individually with each and every person, one on one, many hours per day many times per week, in fact daily I am in contact with them.


I think its wonderful you work with people everyday, it is a great service to the community. I truly believe education is the key. We must all take the time to research and look into things for ourselves. With that knowledge people can make fully informed decisions on everyting for their gliders. smile

Originally Posted By: Bourbon
crabbing is a sign of fear, if that is mistaken for grumpiness, then you must start listening to your gliders more.


I do agree that crabbing is a sign of fear. When a cage is accidently bumped there are gliders here that let out a crab. But yes, they do stop once they hear my voice or see that its me. This is normal glider behavior to crab at something that is unknown at the time and settle once it is known.

Originally Posted By: Bourbon
Did you know once your glider stops crabbing, that the only time you hear them crab after that , they are totally petrified.

I disagree here. I have a glider that mini-crabs while she is holding my finger licking it. She may be the exception though, not the rule.

Gliders are going to crab. It is a normal noise they make. Its as if asking a dog not to bark. They will do it when alarmed, or any other time that warrents it. Crabbing does not always go along with lunging bites, or scared "ninja" stances. Some gliders only crab when there is a logical reason... Like you said - fear. But that fear can be a loud noise, or a sudden movement of the cage. This is perfectly normal. I would be afraid if I didn't hear a crab every once in a while.

Originally Posted By: Bourbon
if you are holding your glider and it is crabbing, don't do it, they are afraid.. If you take them out of the pouch and put them into a bonding pouch, and they are crabbing, they are afraid. stop, back up, start at the beginning, take the time to let the glider get to know you, your movements, your voice and the good things, your hands provide to them.


I couldn't agree more! Going at a gliders pace is something Im a BIG advocate of! smile

Originally Posted By: Bourbon
I have one goal, it is that the gliders are no longer afraid, the "bonding" is is between the gliders and the owners and that is something that takes time. each glider reaches their own level, each owner, understands that not all gliders reach the same levels as others. but ALL of the gliders are able to be fed, they do not crab, they do not lunge, and guess what, they do not run from their owners, in fact it is the opposite, they come to their owners, and play on them , with them.


Again I agree! smile I reach these same goals, but dont remove enrichment. Its just a difference of approach. Goals can be reached using alternate routes.
_________________________
Kinue

ISTJ
When it rains, it pours...

www.serenitysugargliders.homestead.com

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#705776 - 01/04/09 05:38 PM Re: bonding method debate [Re: jacknsally]
DeeDancer Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 1035
Loc: Las Vegas, NV/Columbus, OH
Originally Posted By: jacknsally

you know why, I don't NEED an overnight miracle with gliders.



No one is asking for an overnight miracle, but for the glider's sake, isn't it better if they learn to trust sooner rather than later? I think it is a good thing for a glider to learn to trust sooner so that they are not living in fear for say, six months instead of a month. Especially gliders that are in a rescue-the sooner they move on to their forever home, the better, right? dunno Clearly I don't have the experience that anyone else here does, that's why I'm asking this question.
_________________________
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Chinchillas: Luke, Yoda, and Pronk
Gliders: Nika, Ranger, and DeeGee

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#705779 - 01/04/09 05:41 PM Re: bonding method debate [Re: Bourbon]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
Nancy as I have said earlier, life with gliders is trial and error, and if we stop trying new methods, and different things then we are still only using the older slow ways. there are some who the pouch hasn't worked for, brandy has posted public ally many times as have others, but you know what, they still tried other things till they found what works for them.

If you were to read the thread, you will see many people with different issues with their gliders, but at least you have people who are learning who is still trying to make a difference, the knowledge they have gained through all of this is far more valuable than they could have learned just playing in a tent. and for some of these gliders, tents were not even an option, in fact getting in to feed them was huge issues.

read each story, about each person, you will see their successes, as well as their disappointments, you will see that no matter what, they never gave up on their glider.

these types of gliders hit rescue homes all the time, or they are passed on to unsuspecting new owners many times several new owners. who really cares what method a person uses if it works, I don't like the bonding pouch before trust is built, but if it works for "SOME" then so be it, I can go onto each thread where it is advised, and jump in and tell my concerns, my fears, and my experienced with owners that have done it. but instead I would rather step up to the plate and help them after the fact, they at least tried. They followed peoples advise. and in order to help the glider we "MUST" help the owner first.
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#705782 - 01/04/09 05:45 PM Re: bonding method debate [Re: Bourbon]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
Deanna, you can explain what I am trying to say about taking it at the gliders own pace, you have been led by your glider from the beginning..
_________________________
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#705785 - 01/04/09 05:51 PM Re: bonding method debate [Re: MatchMakerMagic]
thefotokat Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1360
Loc: Ft. Pierce, FL
This is a debate about a bonding method. The people involved don't really matter. I've only been in the online glider community for a short time. I have interned at a zoo and discussed behavior modification techniques w/numerous keepers. Opinions are being offered here. It is a discussion, not a game. I don't "play" when it comes to gliders. There are some very intelligent folks on these boards, ones from whom I've leaned a lot. Just because we haven't been in the glider community for many years doesn't lessen the worthiness of our opinions. We each have our own experiences, experiences that are valuable and that do offer information. No one has to agree w/them, but a debate is not a contest. I, personally, have been successful in working w/gliders w/out removing anything from them. I believe that makes them feel safe. It gives them a sense of security. I don't chase gliders. I don't put them in closed pouches. I look at each glider and try to understand why it's acting the way it is. But, I also understand that there is behavior that is normal for a glider that may not be what an owner wants. I do not believe normal behavior should be changed. I have a glider here who crabs. He crabs when he's in his pouch and another glider steps on him. He also crabs as he's holding my finger eating his mealie. He is not afraid. He's just crabbing. This is what I mean by normal behavior and not assuming that crabbing is always bad. It's OK to disagree. That's what makes these forums so wonderful: people can come together and share their own ideas and experiences. They can offer their opinions, and as long as all is done respectfully we can learn from each other. By engaging in debates, we push our minds to think and we may just all learn something more that can help these adorable little creatures.
_________________________
Kate
SouthEast Sugar Gliders
SESG Rescue and Sanctuary
SECARES
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#705786 - 01/04/09 05:51 PM Re: bonding method debate [Re: Bourbon]
MatchMakerMagic Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 2785
Loc: Port Saint Lucie, FL
Originally Posted By: Bourbon
The problem is many times we deal with rescues, there is not a cut and dry reason why they react the way they do, all we can do is speculate. like a previous owner is going to step right up and say.. hmm I smacked my glider in the cage cause he bit me, or I threw my glider across the room cause he bit me...

So since many times we don't have that history, we can only start from where we are, based on their reactions to different things and different environments.. only in a perfect world will we have all the answers.

Very true. Often times you wont know every little abuse a glider suffered. But alot of times you do have a general idea of their stories. Whether it be neglect/starvation, physical abuse, emotional abuse, and that in itself should give you a good starting point with those kinds of cases. I know it does for me.


Originally Posted By: Bourbon
did you look at what was there before, lots of places to hide in, and yes those were removed, wheels are removed if they are wodents, because of the front cover, hanging toys are fine, and bridges, hammocks, foraging toys, ropes walks most have used their bridges as their temp pouches, when you first remove the items depending on what you have filled your cage with, it may seem naked.. things like coconut huts, tunnels, triangles, cubes etc.. have been removed.

Yes, I did see both the before AND after pics. You did just answer a question I asked again. Sorry for the repeat. So the time the glider goes potentially without (if the cage does not have anything besides things to hide in) could be an extended amount of time, just depends on the gliders progress. I understand better now.


Originally Posted By: Bourbon
yes the purpose of this thread and the infiltration of the other thread was to put it down, calling the method cruel, and mind control, and other offenses phrases was not to suggest there are other methods.

I saw that members requested the other thread get back on track? I also saw that Kate's first post (in the other thread) stated why she posted, because of a comment she found upsetting. THIS thread however is not infiltration of anything. Not as far as I can see. Im truly sorry you feel that way.


Originally Posted By: Bourbon
if you listen to what everyone in that thread is saying, they are trying to tell you, they are going at the gliders pace, they can not move forward till the glider wants them to, the gliders lead the program. there is no time limit or element, and each of these people are willing to wait for their glider, at their gliders pace.

I was listening to everyone. And what I heard was, that I didn't get the FULL concept of the "program", that I was close minded and only viewing things in black and white. I think we've ALL said from the beginning the importance of going at the gliders pace.
_________________________
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ISTJ
When it rains, it pours...

www.serenitysugargliders.homestead.com

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#705787 - 01/04/09 05:51 PM Re: bonding method debate [Re: DeeDancer]
jacknsally Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/30/05
Posts: 3224
Loc: North Fort Worth - TX
Originally Posted By: DeeDancer

No one is asking for an overnight miracle, but for the glider's sake, isn't it better if they learn to trust sooner rather than later? I think it is a good thing for a glider to learn to trust sooner so that they are not living in fear for say, six months instead of a month. Especially gliders that are in a rescue-the sooner they move on to their forever home, the better, right? dunno Clearly I don't have the experience that anyone else here does, that's why I'm asking this question.



who says it is sooner? There's just no way of telling if it was sooner or not. From what I've seen most of the cases- there wasn't much time put in to trying traditional ways.

In my opinion, gliders who make overnight progress from the (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets, they didn't need it in the first place. Traditional bonding techniques always took a few weeks to see progress so I think that glider was put through fear for a month for nothing.

Come see my Miley in person and tell me if you think using the (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets method is what would break her to trust me. Don't worry I have lots of tissues.

Miley is a rescue, she's way beyond the little bumps I've seen the others say they are having with their gliders.
_________________________
Ñancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


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#705789 - 01/04/09 05:55 PM Re: bonding method debate [Re: Bourbon]
BelladonnasMom
Unregistered


The reason I decided to try what Bourbon does is bc I had tried the other way, the sit and wait and maybe they will come around thing. I left her alone, didn't approach her, offered only a whisper and a treat ocassionally, gave her all the space she needed. What happened? After 3 months, Donna was getting worse! She went from crabby and nippy to constant crabbing and going for the bone, and added in this little kung fu fend-you-off with my foot thing before striking like a cobra. YEOWCH! I am sure others know what I mean.

Unfortunately, Donna turned out to be a hard case and progress is still going at a snail pace. Though she will come to me now, she still gets wild eyed and panicky really easily.

I saw the thread on the portal page and actually got excited, thinking, "HEY! They got it going, a true debate on other methods. COOL!" But sadly... all I see is you guys knocking the effort others have made to help. Do any of you have any actual advice for someone, such as myslef, who may want to add in stuff from other approaches of gaining trust or bonding with their gliders? I truly am interested.

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#705792 - 01/04/09 05:57 PM Re: bonding method debate [Re: Bourbon]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
kinue
Quote:
What exactly are they allowed to have? Only toys that cannot be hidden in right? For how long does this continue?


Quote:

did you look at what was there before, lots of places to hide in, and yes those were removed, wheels are removed if they are wodents, because of the front cover, hanging toys are fine, and bridges, hammocks, foraging toys, ropes walks most have used their bridges as their temp pouches, when you first remove the items depending on what you have filled your cage with, it may seem naked.. things like coconut huts, tunnels, triangles, cubes etc.. have been removed.


Quote:

by the way enrichment things in the cage, are things that reproduce what they would do in the wild, climbing, foraging, running jumping etc.. offer tail carriers items to play with.. these are enrichment items, and they are all allowed in the cage..

by the way, things are added back to the cage as the gliders progress.


Quote:

I disagree here. I have a glider that mini-crabs while she is holding my finger licking it. She may be the exception though, not the rule.


this is what I was saying earlier about listening to your glider, this isn't a mini crab this is a good sound, we call them churbles, they have many sounds of contentment, purrs chirps, churbles

you shouldn't worry if your gliders don't crab, it is a sure sign, they feel totally safe in their environment, they feel safe that you will protect them from harm, they feel safe and secure, that whatever bumped their cage isn't going to eat them.

it isn't taking away from who they are or what they do, the crab is to scare predators away, that is it's purpose in the wild, and it should be the purpose in your home. we have chosen to take these guys in as pets, therefore we need to be sure they feel very secure in their makeshift home.

we all have the ability to be scared, but we surely won't make your kids go someplace they are afraid in.. example many kids are afraid of the dark, so we as parents, want them to know there is nothing to fear so we buy them night lights, or give them moon light , why??? because although they have the ability to be afraid, we don't want it for them.
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