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#709512 - 01/08/09 01:20 PM Gliders dead & dying! Urgent consultation neded!
Nataly Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 118
Loc: Russia, Moscow
I have to remind you - I'm from Russia, Moscow, thus I cannot get in touch with your vets by phone!!
This DOES NOT, again, concern my own gliders, but is a case from our forum.

The elder girl, who had 2 joyeys, died this night. The picture is as follows:
1. Her weight decreased about two times in a wek's time (and this was concide4red a problem with having twins)
2. all this time she was rather slow and atonic, but she carried the joyey on her all the time. There were no seisures and no errant movements. Yet, we have holidays now, and, maybe, they didmt't see some sympthoms.
3 The photo of the dead girl-glider's face can be seen here: http://radikal.ru/F/s42.radikal.ru/i095/0901/40/6e9d6e021689.jpg.html
There was some blod on her nose, as you see.
4. She lay stretched on her back in the far corner of the cage, and one of he joyeys was sitting beside her. The hands and feet of the dead glider were also stretched upwards.
The younger glider (the previous joyey, about 3 months old) also died several hours ago, but differently: she was curled inside the nest, the nose and paws were a normal rose colour.
5. There seemed to be no jaundice4 the nose of the elder dead glider was somewhat blueish, and there was blood around her nostrils.


Now the male glider is breathing heavily, his movements became somewhat erratic, e does not react to human touch as h usually did. I believe it can be a severe stress, as was with the eler joyey, but I'm not sure.
I ned your advise badly, if any6 of you saw similar cases and can provide just any help.

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#709523 - 01/08/09 01:31 PM Re: Gliders dead & dying! Urgent consultation neded! [Re: Nataly]
CSteele Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/09/07
Posts: 1701
Loc: Elkhorn, WI
maybe check the residence for high levels of carbon monixide????
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#709524 - 01/08/09 01:37 PM Re: Gliders dead & dying! Urgent consultation neded! [Re: CSteele]
dranger1108 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 2501
Loc: Parsons, Kansas
has the house been sprayed with chemicals?
Gas or Kerosene heater?
what diet are they on?
Is their water bottle working?
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#709525 - 01/08/09 01:39 PM Re: Gliders dead & dying! Urgent consultation neded! [Re: CSteele]
Suggiemama123
Unregistered


Maybe some kind of pesticaide orsomething on her fruit or veggies?

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#709534 - 01/08/09 01:50 PM Re: Gliders dead & dying! Urgent consultation neded! [Re: ]
Nataly Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 118
Loc: Russia, Moscow
No chemicals - we've checked it already; at least, no obvious ones.
The diet is as usual here: low-fat yoghurt or cottage cheese, baby food (apricot, apples and nthe like), fruits, veggies, giant worms, honey & bee polley added, etc.
Water is OK.
No gas heater or things like that: we have steam heating here.

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#709536 - 01/08/09 01:53 PM Re: Gliders dead & dying! Urgent consultation neded! [Re: ]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
in addition to the above, you may want them checked for a bacterial infection it may cause hind leg paralysis "SYMPTOMS" which means that the back legs and other muscles may have weakened due to the illness and one may have fallen and then the other die right out.

other than that a toxin is usually something that affects them very quickly, the blood from the nose could be from the toxin, or from a fall.

there are many toxins to consider roach, or any spray, pesticides from nearby farms, foods that could have been sprayed and not cleaned properly, dry glider food that wasn't stored in the freezer food poisoning is also something to consider

the weight loss was indicative of a serious illness, again makes me think of bacteria, it is the only thing other than toxin where many gliders can die all at once, but the ewarning signs were there for something serious to have happened.
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#709544 - 01/08/09 02:05 PM Re: Gliders dead & dying! Urgent consultation neded! [Re: Bourbon]
Nataly Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 118
Loc: Russia, Moscow
The fact that younger joyeys are still alive ( they are about a wek old) makes me think it its nit a virus or bacteria...

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#709546 - 01/08/09 02:07 PM Re: Gliders dead & dying! Urgent consultation neded! [Re: Bourbon]
TWilson
Unregistered


I am so sorry to hear this about these babies. Unfortunately there is no way to tell what is going on with them, it could be any of the things that were stated above.

Right now the only thing that can be done is to get the surviving gliders to a vet, any vet at this point.

I know you stated you are in Russia, and it's the holidays but is there any emergency vets around?


Edited by TWilson (01/08/09 02:08 PM)

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#709553 - 01/08/09 02:15 PM Re: Gliders dead & dying! Urgent consultation nede [Re: ]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
the younger joeys are alive for now, if the adults had it longer, then they would have died first, if you don't think it was bacteria, then what is it the adults were subjected to that the joeys weren't?

I just looked at the photo, it seems she had an injury, the top teeth are smashed away from the nose and the nose has been mangled

do they have any other pets in the home?
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#709565 - 01/08/09 02:28 PM Re: Gliders dead & dying! Urgent consultation nede [Re: Bourbon]
Nataly Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 118
Loc: Russia, Moscow
They do have a cat, but they aren't and weren't in contact; and the cat is for now away. It was not an injury, for sure. I'm thinking about cancer (in the case of an elder female) and a bad stress in the case of the younger one. Perhaps I'm wrong...

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#709576 - 01/08/09 02:35 PM Re: Gliders dead & dying! Urgent consultation nede [Re: Nataly]
Zuki_Mom Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 325
Loc: Williamsburg, Ohio
Did they notice if she was eating less or how her hydration was doing during the last few months? In the picture I saw a yellowed coloration, I was wondering about renal disease or liver disease (I don't know what that looks like in gliders but I had a cat that died of Renal disease and it took months of her getting slower and slower and gradually not eating even with treatment)
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#709577 - 01/08/09 02:36 PM Re: Gliders dead & dying! Urgent consultation nede [Re: Bourbon]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16745
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
The fact that younger joyeys are still alive ( they are about a wek old)


This automatically makes me think there is SOMETHING toxic going on here.

Stop feeding all the foods they are currently feeding and get fresh stuff. The one week old joeys would NOT be eating the same stuff the older gliders eat.

The face on the other glider *could*have happened if the glider was in a high area of the cage when death occurred and a fall was taken and the glider hit its mouth on something.

I would also remove all toys and pouches out of the cage and wash them all and put in fresh stuff, just in case. Use a bleach diluted solution to wash with.

What are babies being supplemented with?

Where were your worms obtained from? The US farms lost all of their worm beds due to a pesticide being placed in what was used as their bedding and they were not aware of that. Much like a crickets dna clinging to the aflatoxin problem, it is possible there is something wrong with your worm shipments.
Hold them under a black light and tell us what you see...
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Critter Love
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You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#709618 - 01/08/09 03:05 PM Re: Gliders dead & dying! Urgent consultation nede [Re: Srlb]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
I agree with Peggy that it may very well have been a toxin from one of the food sources and that the face injuries on the mother glider may have been sustained during a fall either just prior to or just after death. The fact that the nursing joeys have not shown any signs of illness is indicative of a toxin rather than a bacterial infection.
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#709639 - 01/08/09 03:18 PM Re: Gliders dead & dying! Urgent consultation nede [Re: sugarglidersuz]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
it sounds like a food poision since the babies are still alive as they were too young to eat the food that the parents were eating.

Mother gliders sounds like she had seizures.

With all having blood around the nose and male had resp problems... still sounds like a very bad bacterial illness that is food borne.

Babies need to be fed every two hours. Not sure what they are being fed... owner can give Puppy Milk.

Babies need to be vet Checked ASAP. A necropsy needs to be done on at least one of the adults if at all possible (Body in zip lock bag and refrigerated).
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#709645 - 01/08/09 03:29 PM Re: Gliders dead & dying! Urgent consultation nede [Re: Judie]
chastity
Unregistered


OMG, that is so horrible. I am so sorry. The poor baby, good luck & please keep us posted.

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#709660 - 01/08/09 03:40 PM Re: Gliders dead & dying! Urgent consultation nede [Re: Srlb]
Nataly Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 118
Loc: Russia, Moscow
As for the worms: they are fed natural food, 'cause here it it much cheeper. SWe get them from one and the ame provider hee in Moscow, and I am quite sure in him.
there were no new toys and pouches.
All the family where living in the same cage: a pair of elder gliders (the female died first; the male is under stress, but still alive); the elder female joyey (died several hours after her mother), and two younger (1 week OOP) joyeys - both still alive.

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#709699 - 01/08/09 04:17 PM Re: Gliders dead & dying! Urgent consultation nede [Re: Nataly]
suggiemom1980 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 13746
Loc: Vincennes, IN, USA
Could the mom have had an abscess in her jaw or tooth? That was my first thought. JMHO.
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#709879 - 01/08/09 07:17 PM Re: Gliders dead & dying! Urgent consultation nede [Re: suggiemom1980]
Nataly Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 118
Loc: Russia, Moscow
Seems to me, not. She ate well till the last day.

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#710273 - 01/09/09 02:41 AM Re: Gliders dead & dying! Urgent consultation nede [Re: Nataly]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Quote:
I just looked at the photo, it seems she had an injury, the top teeth are smashed away from the nose and the nose has been mangled


Bourbon-I see the same thing. An illness or toxin would not dislocate the teeth-this glider has been injured somehow or by something. And the teeth are definitely either mashed in or torn away from the front of the mouth.

The parents likely tried to protect the joeys-and succeeded in that, while losing the battle, but I've not seen a disease cause that sort of damage, especially suddenly.


Edited by Xfilefan (01/09/09 02:44 AM)
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#710358 - 01/09/09 08:27 AM Re: Gliders dead & dying! Urgent consultation nede [Re: Xfilefan]
Cora Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 6573
Loc: Kilgore, Texas
no cat toys in their cage?? catnip is toxic. just throwing ideas around like everyone else. i am so sorry this is happening to you.
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#710652 - 01/09/09 02:59 PM Re: Gliders dead & dying! Urgent consultation nede [Re: Cora]
Suggiemama123
Unregistered


what if there is a toxin present and subsequently she fell and hit her head??

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#716761 - 01/16/09 10:48 AM Re: Gliders dead & dying! Urgent consultation nede [Re: ]
Nataly Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 118
Loc: Russia, Moscow
We shall know the autopsy results after January, 20. Surely, I'll let you know.
I am happy to say, though, that the male glider managed to survive the stress, and the joyeys are alive. They are hand-raised, and, as for now, everything seems to be OK.

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#716767 - 01/16/09 10:54 AM Re: Gliders dead & dying! Urgent consultation nede [Re: Nataly]
DeeDancer Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 1035
Loc: Las Vegas, NV/Columbus, OH
that's good to hear!
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#716770 - 01/16/09 10:57 AM Re: Gliders dead & dying! Urgent consultation nede [Re: Nataly]
unca_cheese
Unregistered


Did I see they were being fed cottage cheese? maybe this dairy product was not right. Just another idea out there

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#716996 - 01/16/09 05:46 PM Re: Gliders dead & dying! Urgent consultation nede [Re: Xfilefan]
kipluck Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 239
Loc: Orem, UT
Originally Posted By: Xfilefan
Quote:
I just looked at the photo, it seems she had an injury, the top teeth are smashed away from the nose and the nose has been mangled


Bourbon-I see the same thing. An illness or toxin would not dislocate the teeth-this glider has been injured somehow or by something. And the teeth are definitely either mashed in or torn away from the front of the mouth.

The parents likely tried to protect the joeys-and succeeded in that, while losing the battle, but I've not seen a disease cause that sort of damage, especially suddenly.
Could this be the result of a cage mate trying to "clean up" a dead or dying mate?
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#717001 - 01/16/09 05:59 PM Re: Gliders dead & dying! Urgent consultation nede [Re: kipluck]
Cora Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 6573
Loc: Kilgore, Texas
I am so happy for the joeys and dad............thanks so much for keeping us updated...........................YOU ROCK!!!
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#721880 - 01/23/09 06:08 AM Re: Gliders dead & dying! Urgent consultation nede [Re: Cora]
Nataly Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 118
Loc: Russia, Moscow
So, as for the diagnosis.

The culture of the hemolytic streptococcus was found.
The autopsy showed changes characteristic of streptococcal septicemia (Septicaemia streptococcalis).

For all I could find, this illness is carried mostly by rabbits, and is lethal in 50%-100% cases. The clinical picture, in case of the elder glider, seems similar to what is described concerning rabbits. Yet, the situation with the second glider seemed different, and I still think that stress is the most probable cause for her death.
(The fact is, perhaps, they did not do the autopsy of the second glider at all, thinking that two gliders living in the same house, dying in a short period of time and brought for the autopsy at the same tine should have died from the same disease.)

The joeys,I'm happy to say, are alive and growing; their father is OK too, and takes much care of them.
The owners are going to make analysis for streptococcus tomorrow, just to be on the safe side, though, I believe, everything will prove to be all right, if all of them are still alive.

Thank you all for your advice and sympathy!

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#721916 - 01/23/09 08:27 AM Re: Gliders dead & dying! Urgent consultation nede [Re: Nataly]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
Quote:
Could this be the result of a cage mate trying to "clean up" a dead or dying mate?


no, the teeth are broken


streptococcus is a bacterial infection, if she had it then all in the cage needs to be treated immediately for it.

the symptoms that are associated with this, give a impression of hind leg paralysis but it is very sudden and happens quickly, so therefore the one glider with the mangled teeth, very well could have fallen when the back legs gave out on her.

I am glad dad and the joeys are doing fine, i will feel so much better when they are being treated.
_________________________
Baybe,My Roots

SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

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#721921 - 01/23/09 08:30 AM Re: Gliders dead & dying! Urgent consultation nede [Re: Nataly]
Cora Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 6573
Loc: Kilgore, Texas
wow. Do we know where the infection started?? I know septicemia is blood infection but the infection normally starts somewhere else before it goes to the blood.

I am so glad the joeys and dad are doing fine!!! Good job on the update! smile
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#722309 - 01/23/09 07:03 PM Re: Gliders dead & dying! Urgent consultation nede [Re: Cora]
Nataly Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 118
Loc: Russia, Moscow
I can make a supposition, which may be close to truth. The owners used to buy hay and wood scrap at a zoomarket, where they sell all kind of animals - rabbits too. The streptococcus survive in dried blood or other matter for several weeks, so the direct contact with ill animals is not necessary: the very fact that a bag (even hermetically sealed) with a drop or two of dried blood, etc., was brought home is quite enough. If a glider girl having joyeys had a scratch, say, in her pouch, then the bacteria could get in her blood (I feel like a medical detective trying to figure it all out). As for rabbits, to whom this kind of illness is common, the nursing mothers are the most probable victims, for they may get scratches on their nipples, and this is the easiest way for the bacteria to get in their blood. If it is a cross-species illness (which, I suppose, is highly probable), then the situation may be similar with the gliders.
Anyway, we'll try to get more precise information in a few days. If we suceed, then we'll have the information on another cross-species illness which the gliders can get.
If we obtain more accurate informaion, I will immediately let you know. I believe it can be useful for all of us.

Upd. Surely, if the other gliders, joeys included, had no wounds or scratches, then the bacteria could not get into their blood; thus, they did not fall ill.
God, I've spent an hour or so trying to learn all I can about the streptococcus!.. My husband did study microbiology, but me, I am a philologist and a translator, so all these things are quite new to me...


Edited by Nataly (01/23/09 07:33 PM)

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