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#714633 - 01/13/09 08:31 PM Ethics of breeding -- Opinions?
Devil_Bunny_Girl Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Buckeye, AZ
Being an owner of many different animals, I can appreciate the miracle of life. I can also understand the heartbreak of loss because a baby was born with a deformity and didn't make it through the first few hours of its life. I've had it happen with horses and dogs.

I do have a question, and I'm interested in what you all think on this.

Animals reject their babies for a reason. Sometimes it may not be something we can see physically. As humans, we feel the need to help those that are rejected, we interfere, so to speak, and save a life that may not have been meant to be saved.

My question here is, do you think it is right for us to interfere if a mother rejects her joey?

If no, why not?

If yes, why?
_________________________
~Bunny A.K.A. Shanna Banana~

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#714639 - 01/13/09 08:38 PM Re: Ethics of breeding -- Opinions? [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
DelilahsMom
Unregistered


You are going to find a large group of people who think we shouldn't interfere. And then you are going to find a large group that believes you should do everything to save a joeys life.

Personally, I feel it depends upon the circumstances.

In my situation mom never rejected but wasn't able to produce enough milk. So, I supp. fed to take some of the burden off mom.

Another situation I know of, mom rejected one but not the other. Mom was under a LOT of stress. Unfortuantely that baby did not survive and the other just came home to me this past weekend.

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#714641 - 01/13/09 08:39 PM Re: Ethics of breeding -- Opinions? [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
Suggiescomin
Unregistered


Yes, I think the mother made a bad decision and those babies deserve to live, even if the parents don't think so.They did nothing wrong they aren't even born yet, so they have no reason to be treated badly by their parents.

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#714644 - 01/13/09 08:44 PM Re: Ethics of breeding -- Opinions? [Re: ]
Sabrina Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 02/28/08
Posts: 1171
Loc: Never Never Land
Human Mothers unfortunately reject and kill their babies as well and we try to interfere, so why wouldn't we when it comes to an animal?
_________________________
Sabrina

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#714645 - 01/13/09 08:44 PM Re: Ethics of breeding -- Opinions? [Re: ]
Laurens_Babies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3570
Loc: Kansas City, MO
The problem is by bring breeding out of nature we are playing mother nature ourselves. But we are not gods we can't fully make a choice on WHY mom rejected. A lot of times yes there is something wrong with the joey and mom knows that better than we do. But at the same time there is plenty of chances its just that mom is stressed out maybe from over breeding, maybe from us stressing her out by peering at those babies too long. But when you are looking at a cold joey huddled in an area all by themselves and you stare at the poor HELPLESS thing we don't have time to sit around and figure out why it was reject. Thank goodness I've never had a rejected joey but if I had one who passed it would be sad but I would accept it as natures way. However I can't just sit around and allow it to die without trying.
_________________________
~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*

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#714646 - 01/13/09 08:45 PM Re: Ethics of breeding -- Opinions? [Re: ]
Devil_Bunny_Girl Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Buckeye, AZ
Originally Posted By: DelilahsMom

Another situation I know of, mom rejected one but not the other. Mom was under a LOT of stress. Unfortuantely that baby did not survive and the other just came home to me this past weekend.


Stress is an important factor I forgot to figure in my question(s). I know some mothers can't handle movement in/around the cage. And that can be a factor that we can induce on them (sometimes without realizing).

I'm sorry about the baby that was lost.
_________________________
~Bunny A.K.A. Shanna Banana~

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#714651 - 01/13/09 08:51 PM Re: Ethics of breeding -- Opinions? [Re: ]
Devil_Bunny_Girl Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Buckeye, AZ
Originally Posted By: Suggiescomin
Yes, I think the mother made a bad decision and those babies deserve to live, even if the parents don't think so.They did nothing wrong they aren't even born yet, so they have no reason to be treated badly by their parents.


I don't think it's a matter of being treated badly -- it's an animal instinct that I'm focusing on and our interaction because of that instinct. I don't think a pair of parent gliders are sitting there in the pouch or nesting area and just do it because it's bad parenting. There's always some kind of factor that has to be considered, like stress or a possibly deformity that we maybe can't see.

But what I'm talking about happens after the joeys are peanut sized and may or may not be OOP, so they are born. Know what I mean?
_________________________
~Bunny A.K.A. Shanna Banana~

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#714654 - 01/13/09 08:55 PM Re: Ethics of breeding -- Opinions? [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
Suggiescomin
Unregistered


OOO, hahha gotcha, lol, yeah the parents always know best (mostly) roflmao

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#714656 - 01/13/09 08:56 PM Re: Ethics of breeding -- Opinions? [Re: Sabrina]
Devil_Bunny_Girl Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Buckeye, AZ
Originally Posted By: Sabrina
Human Mothers unfortunately reject and kill their babies as well and we try to interfere, so why wouldn't we when it comes to an animal?


Very true. But many of us don't try to interfere, also. Some people may argue that it's ok to do that.
_________________________
~Bunny A.K.A. Shanna Banana~

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#714659 - 01/13/09 09:02 PM Re: Ethics of breeding -- Opinions? [Re: Laurens_Babies]
Devil_Bunny_Girl Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Buckeye, AZ
Originally Posted By: Laurens_Babies
But at the same time there is plenty of chances its just that mom is stressed out maybe from over breeding


So, in essence it would be our fault again that the joey was rejected.

I'm not a breeder, but I'm assuming here that overbreeding would be everytime the female came into her heat cycle, she was impregnanted, and never given any breaks inbetween?

Basically, like what mills do, correct?

Ok -- dumb question time -- how can you tell if she's in heat? Do they bleed when they cycle, too?
_________________________
~Bunny A.K.A. Shanna Banana~

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#714664 - 01/13/09 09:09 PM Re: Ethics of breeding -- Opinions? [Re: ]
Sherri Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/06
Posts: 3826
Loc: Big Sandy TN
From what I've heard is that its very, very hard to save a joey that isnt detatched (oop). I know it has been done, but those are rare cases.

I had one joey in my home that was rejected at a day oop. I couldnt watch her just die with out doing something. I tried but it wasnt meant to be, she died that night in my bra. I was sad and a little dissapointed in myself for not being able to save her. But I wasnt crushed or completely heart broken. Because I knew that there had to be a reason that her momma rejected her and that it just wasnt meant to be.

Would I do it again if I had to? Yes! I cant watch any animal suffer like that with out trying to do something to try and save it.

I respect the large mass of people that can let nature take is course with a rejected joey. And I also have respect for everyone that tries to save them. Personally I would "try" to save the baby.
_________________________
sherri

Forever home to a wide variety of animals, domestic, farm and exotic.
My passion is my little suggie sweethearts! 731-441-9814


http://www.newbysglidernook.com/index.html

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#714668 - 01/13/09 09:10 PM Re: Ethics of breeding -- Opinions? [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
Chris_R Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 310
Loc: Northwest Missouri
They come into heat every 28 days

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#714671 - 01/13/09 09:11 PM Re: Ethics of breeding -- Opinions? [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
DelilahsMom
Unregistered


The situation I know about was dad was neutered and he sm'd. Thus he had to have several surgeries and be seperated from mom. The babies were due oop any time so she was brought to a get together. Granted, mom was a low stress glider and dad was high stress so they couldn't be left at home.

While at the gathering, one baby came oop. He was a little dehydrated and was rejected. His human mom did everything she could but he just couldn't pull through. His twin did really great but did need to be supplement fed.

I think that the stress of being seperated from her mate and having twins was too much for her. I don't think there was anything wrong with him and his necropsy came back with no obvious signs or symptoms of illness or disease.

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#714675 - 01/13/09 09:14 PM Re: Ethics of breeding -- Opinions? [Re: Chris_R]
Devil_Bunny_Girl Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Buckeye, AZ
Originally Posted By: Chris_R
They come into heat every 28 days


I know that, but what I mean is, is there tell tale signs?

I can't just say every 28th day of the month, there it is.. My Layla is in heat.

I've never seen any signs or anything. It's not like she whips out the Midol and Tampax and tells me to leave her alone or die...LOL
_________________________
~Bunny A.K.A. Shanna Banana~

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#714692 - 01/13/09 09:33 PM Re: Ethics of breeding -- Opinions? [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
Sherri Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/06
Posts: 3826
Loc: Big Sandy TN
Originally Posted By: Devil_Bunny_Girl
[quote=Chris_R] It's not like she whips out the Midol and Tampax and tells me to leave her alone or die...LOL




Too Funny!!


I know that every situation is different, "I" would also have to try and save every one that I could. But luckily no more joey's for me. All males are either neutered or sterile. I would have never been cut out to be a breeder. To much stress.
_________________________
sherri

Forever home to a wide variety of animals, domestic, farm and exotic.
My passion is my little suggie sweethearts! 731-441-9814


http://www.newbysglidernook.com/index.html

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#714707 - 01/13/09 09:44 PM Re: Ethics of breeding -- Opinions? [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
No, gliders don't bleed when they are in heat. If you are very "in tune" with your gliders you MIGHT be able to tell. One sign is the male's attention to the female. This will increase when she comes into season. Sometimes I think my girls DO need Midol...they get moody sometimes.

I've had two sets of rejected joeys. The first set was twin boys born to rescued parents. (they came to me with the joeys ip). They were here about a month when the joeys came oop, very tiny, most likely early. At 6 days oop, mom and dad completely rejected and I took over. Blake didn't make it. He was only 6 grams at 6 days oop. Duncan, was 8 grams at 6 days oop and I hand raised him. He did very well but lived less than 3 years.

I have no idea if it was the stress the parents were under, the poor diet they had been on before coming to me, a genetic defect in the joeys or what. I treasure the time I had with Duncan and although his life was short, I don't regret saving him in the least.

The second set are twin girls that are now about 12 weeks oop. They were born here in my home and again, I have no idea why they were rejected. This was the 3rd set of twins for these parents. I raised them and they have gone to a NON breeding home. Hopefully they will live the long life we all want for our gliders but I know they will be loved and treasured for however long they do have with us.

Their parents are going to be given one more chance at joeys and then dad will be neutered. Regardless whether they are perfect parents or reject.

I do not get upset at a joey that is pulled before it comes oop because I know the chance of that joey surviving outside of the pouch early is very slim. But once the joey has detatched I will do what I can to save him/her/them.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#714803 - 01/14/09 01:26 AM Re: Ethics of breeding -- Opinions? [Re: Dancing]
Devil_Bunny_Girl Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Buckeye, AZ
I just want to say that they way everyone has gone to the 110% to help their joeys is just awesome.

You all are just really, really awesome. Seriously, I do mean that.

And really, at times the one that I swear needs the Midol is my boy, Derek. He's so moody sometimes!

Layla, sweet as pie. She's my little powder puff. She's the cream filling in the cake on my avatar.
_________________________
~Bunny A.K.A. Shanna Banana~

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#714804 - 01/14/09 01:33 AM Re: Ethics of breeding -- Opinions? [Re: Dancing]
Devil_Bunny_Girl Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Buckeye, AZ
Originally Posted By: Dancing
No, gliders don't bleed when they are in heat. If you are very "in tune" with your gliders you MIGHT be able to tell.


Thanks Teresa! That was my main concern. You know, if I saw blood I wanted to be prepared. I'm very anal at checking over my suggs. After I lost my Napoleon, I've been scared. I was scared to love and get close to gliders again, as dumb as that sounds. But, I was. I've overcome that, but I'm very careful about everything -- always careful about noises they make, where they go, who holds them and how... I don't know if that makes sense. I'm so tired right now.

It's so easy with horses. The mares "wink" at you when they're in heat.

Thank you for the help and the input!
_________________________
~Bunny A.K.A. Shanna Banana~

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#714805 - 01/14/09 01:39 AM Re: Ethics of breeding -- Opinions? [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
I have two mares, know what you mean. lol

Anytime you see blood on a glider, it is an indication of an injury. Might be as simple as you cut a nail too short (a little flour will help with that) to more serious issues that require a vet visit.

Keep in mind how little gliders are...a little blood for a dog isn't a "big deal" but the same amount on a glider could be their life.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#714817 - 01/14/09 03:22 AM Re: Ethics of breeding -- Opinions? [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Devil_Bunny_Girl

My question here is, do you think it is right for us to interfere if a mother rejects her joey?


It depends. There are situations when a joey is obviously not "viable", I don't believe we should intervene in such a situation, most likely it would only cause pain/suffering with a bad outcome in the end.

There are times that it is NOT the joey being rejected because something is wrong with it. It is simply due to the mother not producing enough milk, injury, illness or pouch infection. Stress can cause a glider to not be able to produce enough milk also.

I made a decision over 2 years ago to pull a joey from my Grace after she lost the other, she was frantic. She had already lost joeys in the past so had a history there. MaryAnn ended up cannabalized but was the largest of the two girls, I KNEW the other little girl could be next in her situation. I took her 3 days OOP when her sister died and handraised her.

Sarah Ann Grace was born on Christmas Day, 2006. She is 2 years old now, extremely healthy and absolutely beautiful. She is my pride and joy smile In HER case, I made the right decision.

NOTE: Her hubby was neutered shortly after but she was carrying 2 more IP. The boys came and were the first they raised with NO problems. They are a colony of 4 with both boys neutered also.
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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#714834 - 01/14/09 05:21 AM Re: Ethics of breeding -- Opinions? [Re: SugarBlossoms]
Gossamer Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/22/06
Posts: 1667
Loc: Long Island, NY
We plucked these creatures out of the wild - threw them in tiny cages - feed them a diet that is so totally unnatural for them - MOTHER NATURE IS ALREADY GONE. We are interfering with a man-made situation already. Why shouldn't we try to save a life?

OH - and human beings are a creation of mother nature also - WHATEVER we do is mother nature.
_________________________
Jeannine

3 Cats (Spike, Kismet, Honeycat)
1 understanding Husband
1 WFB Neutered Glider boy - Grissom! (oop 8/7/06) :wfb:
1 BB Glider girl- Willows! (oop 1/7/07) :bb:

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#714841 - 01/14/09 05:57 AM Re: Ethics of breeding -- Opinions? [Re: Gossamer]
rachael
Unregistered


Its Human nature to try and save them, I am a wildlife care and get a lot of orphan possums in, its a hard thing to know what is the right thing to do sometimes. We need to know when to draw the line, sometimes I think we try to save them at all costs when sometimes we should just let mother nature take its course.

Below is an interesting read on raising pinkie marsupials

http://www.wildlifevictoria.org.au/cms/images/stories/docs/raising_pinkies.pdf

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#714882 - 01/14/09 07:24 AM Re: Ethics of breeding -- Opinions? [Re: ]
KimeyDiann Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 459
Loc: Mississippi
I can't help but to try to save any animal I see in need, whether it be a tiny joey, a newborn kitten, a 15 year old dog, an injured mouse, whatever.

I believe in fate so I think that even if we try to intervene, if it is not meant for that baby to survive, it won't. But if it is possible for the baby live with help from a person, then it will work out. And maybe that baby's life or death is meant to teach us something or even change something about us...
I got kind of deep there roflmao
_________________________
Kim

You can complain because roses have thorns, or you can rejoice because thorns have roses.
-Ziggy

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#714886 - 01/14/09 07:30 AM Re: Ethics of breeding -- Opinions? [Re: KimeyDiann]
mommabear82
Unregistered


I agree Kim.

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#715237 - 01/14/09 02:58 PM Re: Ethics of breeding -- Opinions? [Re: ]
sweetheart26 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 07/12/07
Posts: 3305
Loc: USA
i agree too..
_________________________





mom to sugar gliders storm,thunder,lighting,snowball,rosebud,winter,string,summer fall and sweet.




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#715249 - 01/14/09 03:22 PM Re: Ethics of breeding -- Opinions? [Re: sweetheart26]
gliderma Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5402
Loc: Michigan
Human mom's have been know to "reject" their babies too! That is why my grandsons are now living with their Dad! I would have to do whatever I could to help the little one survive. I could not just sit back and watch them die. When you think about it, Doctor's & Nurse's do this all the time! We all know someone who should be dead d/t cancer, heart attack or any number of conditions, but there was an intervention that allowed them to live. This same son, who now has his 7 mos old & 2 yr. old sons, came to me with a baby squirrel 16 yrs. ago. It was tiny, eyes still sealed shut & no fur! I told him it would die and trully believed it would! We got a baby bottle and some esbilac, feed him thruout the night & he was still alive in the morning! He did grow into a very handsome little squirrel and had to go thru "rehab" to be released back into the wild thru a program that the humane society has. So, I could never give up even now!
_________________________
Lynn Martel
616-272-4374
989-400-5686

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#715256 - 01/14/09 03:36 PM Re: Ethics of breeding -- Opinions? [Re: gliderma]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
I guess I feel the same way for my animals as I do for myself.

If I am sick, injured, etc - And there is a reasonable chance that I can be saved *AND* have a good quality of life - I'd like to be saved. If I can only be saved via extra-ordinary means, and/or my quality of life would not be good - I don't want to be saved.

I don't have a definition of "extraordinary means". I hope we'll know when we get there!

I do not think that extraordinary means includes waking up every 2 hours to feed a rejected baby. That falls within the realm of "normal and expected."

Like Lynn said - if the mom just doesn't know how (or want) to be a mom, and the baby can be saved, it should be. If the baby was rejected because there was a birth defect that I can't see ... I'm certain that nature will take it's course no matter what I do.
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#715265 - 01/14/09 04:05 PM Re: Ethics of breeding -- Opinions? [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
Rhapsody
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Devil_Bunny_Girl

Animals reject their babies for a reason. Sometimes it may not be something we can see physically.
As humans, we feel the need to help those that are rejected, we interfere, so to speak, and save a life that may not have been meant to be saved.


IMO -
If the life of an animal was not meant to remain after birth then no amount of care will make a difference... but then again if the life was meant to grow and be part of this world the help given was meant just as much to keep the life here.

Just like with humans - when a soul is meant to be born it will be, and when it is meant to go no amount of help will be able to stop what is to take place.

Some times we are to care for a person / animal for only a short time, but the growth one receives from the experience is beyond the pain of death - life grows within the heart that is willing to care.


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#715278 - 01/14/09 04:31 PM Re: Ethics of breeding -- Opinions? [Re: ]
mommabear82
Unregistered


I would have to try my hardest.

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#715705 - 01/15/09 07:43 AM Re: Ethics of breeding -- Opinions? [Re: ]
KimeyDiann Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 459
Loc: Mississippi
Rhapsody, you said exactly what I was trying to, but in a much more eloquent and touching way!
_________________________
Kim

You can complain because roses have thorns, or you can rejoice because thorns have roses.
-Ziggy

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