Sugar Glider Community Calendar

Please click here to see larger view
Articles
More coming soon!!
Today's Birthdays
AmandaLou, Camille, ScootersPet
Featured Member
Registered: 06/05/05
Posts: 209
Last 10 Posts
"Homemade" yogie treats
by sugarfluff
46 minutes 51 seconds ago
Dear Crabby
by Ladymagyver
Today at 02:13 AM
2018 Sugar Glider Calendar and Cafe Press Store
by theresaw
Yesterday at 08:46 PM
Riding on back?
by Nejwig
Yesterday at 10:52 AM
Sick glider- post surgery decline
by sugarfluff
Yesterday at 08:09 AM
Round 3 the swelling starts
by Terry
08/17/17 07:45 PM
Custom Cage Liners Machine Wash & Dry
by gr8pots
08/17/17 08:05 AM
Joey or Full grown
by josefine
08/16/17 11:30 PM
Joeys from Lucky You Gliders
by Lynsie
08/16/17 01:11 PM
Joeys from Lucky You Gliders
by Lynsie
08/16/17 01:10 PM
Google+

Facebook
Join Us On Facebook
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#71774 - 12/08/05 08:01 AM What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders?
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Have you ever wondered about the history and blood line of the gliders in North America? Seems to me we have really messed up. When gliders first started coming into the US they were mostly all from Australia. Then the majority of the imports started to come from New Guinea. Now they have been mixed and crossbred to the point that we do not have any idea where the captive gliders in America are from.

Most of the studies on wild gliders have been done in Australia on gliders from that country. I wonder how these studies would compare to similar studies that could be done in New Guinea. Or even the different regions in Australia. Would there be a difference in life expectancy between sugar gliders from the Islands and the Continent? What would be the differences in the diets and have they been separated long enough to have different dietary needs?

And now with the cross breeding between the gliders from the different areas and the breeding for colors here in the US we don't really know what we have. In the past it has been mentioned at how messed up the dog species have become but I think we are doing even worse with the gliders. Are we heading in the direction of having a few so called registered gliders and the rest are going to be mongrels with no background history? It is obvious that even the colored gliders that have a better set of records only go back a few generations. If you give it some serious thought we really have a genetic mess on our hands.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

Top
#71775 - 12/08/05 12:05 PM Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


You know that is so true. I was just thinking about that the other day. The bloodpool of the gliders here in North America has certainly been a melange of sorts.

Yes, from what I understand, the diets of wild gliders do vary cross-geographically, sometimes even vastly, especially with regards to plant materials. I mentioned in an earlier post that colonies of gliders observed on the Island of Tasmania never fed on Acacia at all, which is a primary food source for wild gliders found in most of Australia.

My glider, Chante, is half wild (on her mother's side) and she appears to be very different form any female glider I've seen. For one thing, the fur on her tail looks comparatively thin in contrast to her wide heavy body and big bone frame... and this among other differences.

It's also the reason why I think it would be interesting and perhaps ideal for some of the major breeders here in North America to perhaps look into purchasing captive gliders from countries abroad, particularly those where wild gliders may have penetrated the genepool to greater degree (I understand my parents' native Philippines, which is just a skip and a hop away from Australia and Indonesia, also has a pet sugar glider market) so to keep the bloodpool as close to the wild ancestor as possible (if deviating from the wild ancestor is considered "a genetic mess", that is. I suppose it depends on how you look at it).

If this ongoing process of morphism into some other sugar glider continues we will over some time have a case similar to pet ferrets, where we humans have owned and bred them captively for so long, that they no longer resemble their original wild ancestor. The closest thing to a pet ferret in the wild are polecats.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Top
#71776 - 12/08/05 02:14 PM Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ]
Badgersmommy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1382
Loc: Kentucky
Your Chante sounds just like my Badger! He's big and gorgeous..something about him makes him the cutest of all (I'm biased..lol) He just looks and acts so much different from the rest I have. (and have seen) hmmm
_________________________
Glider Kids - Badger and Bonnie, Pepsi and Grace, Victoria.. ahem..I mean ummm..Victor! and Isabella <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Top
#71777 - 12/08/05 02:15 PM Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sorry <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
The closest thing to a pet ferret in the wild are polecats.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Mikey, what about black-footed ferrets? I know they are endangered, but aren't they a closer match to the domestic ferret than polecats? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

Top
#71778 - 12/08/05 03:43 PM Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ]
Marz Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 708
Loc: Melbourne Australia
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Yes, from what I understand, the diets of wild gliders do vary cross-geographically, sometimes even vastly, especially with regards to plant materials. I mentioned in an earlier post that colonies of gliders observed on the Island of Tasmania never fed on Acacia at all, which is a primary food source for wild gliders found in most of Australia.
Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Hi I am from Australia and would like to mention that Tasmania is part of Australia and the sugar gliders there do eat Acacia. It maybe possible it's a different species of Acacia as different regions do grow local varieties as they do in all plants but it is basically the same diet with local variations.

The Australian Sugar Gliders do look different to most of the gliders in the US and I am guessing that is that most of the gliders in the US are from Indonesian and/or New Guinea stock which are a different subspecies to ours. Also depending on how many gliders were actually introduced into America originally would probably account for certain features and colouring becoming more apparant and maybe possible interbreeding to stamp a type.

Recently in this forum there was an thread posted about an article that appeared in an Australian paper on Pocket Pet Gliders in the USA.

http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/...true#Post441785

All the forum comments were that the glider that appeared with this article was definitely not a sugar glider but a squirrel glider etc. I also have received emails telling me my avatar isn't a sugar glider but a squirrel glider but I can assure you my 5 Sugar Gliders are sugar gliders and so was that glider in that article! From this, I think there must be very obvious differences between the Australian Sugar Gliders and those in the US if I get so many comments about it.

I would also like to add, that all the gliders I have seen here in Australia have been much of the same colouring too ..without too much variation but then two of my gliders have the coveted white tips but this seems quite common here and not a preface to colour breeding.

Just an opinion from a different source which I thought you might finding interesting.

Cheers Marz

Top
#71779 - 12/08/05 04:17 PM Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
[:"green"]Marz, you bring up some interesting points that definitely help to clear up some of the confusion here in North America about sugar gliders in Australia.

Also, according to Chris (Ushuaia)'s weight study that he conducted a few years ago, there are three subspecies native to Australia. One of those, P.b. breviceps was introduced to Tasmania and "quickly multiplied and stabilized."
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
...two of my gliders have the coveted white tips but this seems quite common here and not a preface to colour breeding.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
[:"green"]This statement is also borne out in Chris' study where he points out that "P.b. ariel can be easily identified by its white tipped tail."

Charlie,
I agree that there was an unfortunate trend when gliders were first introduced to North America to not track their genetics. Unfortunately, there's not much we can do about the past. However, we can (& should) keep accurate records about what little geneology we do know at this point.
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

Top
#71780 - 12/08/05 05:59 PM Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ]
cyndiekb Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/08/03
Posts: 5914
Loc: Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
Well I think we as humans have a responsibility to try to keep the blood lines pure and the health of the gliders should be more of a critical issue. We are seeing increased numbers of mutilators and defects. Yes we have messed with nature and the ones paying are the gliders.
_________________________
cyndiekb

I heart & miss you HALEY

My runaways 4/04 Lilo, 5/04 Dash & Angel

angel Sprite Says GO STEALTH!! at
AtticWorx

Top
#71781 - 12/09/05 12:01 AM Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Hi I am from Australia and would like to mention that Tasmania is part of Australia and the sugar gliders there do eat Acacia. It maybe possible it's a different species of Acacia as different regions do grow local varieties as they do in all plants but it is basically the same diet with local variations.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Yes, Marz no doubt they have Acacia in Tasmania, Australia, but from a text reference I was given by Pockets (a member of GC, who owns a library kingdom of literature on the marsupials) there was a study done where the gliders were observed to completely neglect the Acacia species that grew in the region within study, and this was an observation made in Tasmania. I'll see if I can get the study for you, Marz. Whether this ommission of Acacia in the wild glider diets under study applies to the entire Island of Tasmania is irrelevant of the initial point I was trying to make in response to what Charlie stated, which was that the wild glider diets do vary cross-geographically, more than one may think. There are other references that were also given to me where the dietary botanical components were vastly different, again depending on the region.

Also, regarding the immigration of the original ancestors here in North America, Pockets also was helpful in mentioning that our gliders are likely a mix of gliders from all over Oceana, and not mainly Indonesia/New Guinea as is commonly believed. I hope she publishes that book soon!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Top
#71782 - 12/09/05 10:45 AM Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ]
Badgersmommy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1382
Loc: Kentucky
Well, hmph..my Glider kids are American. I'm American. I'm a heinz 57 mixed up DNA in a strange Gene pool of Lord knows who or what. Good to know my kids are actually related to me after all! They ended up in the right country..the melting pot! hehe okay..so I need sleep <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Glider Kids - Badger and Bonnie, Pepsi and Grace, Victoria.. ahem..I mean ummm..Victor! and Isabella <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Top
#71783 - 12/09/05 12:52 PM Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
The glider community as a whole gives a lot of attention to the color variations of gliders. Something that puzzles me is the facial features. Some gliders have short snouts and rounded faces. Others have longer snouts and faces that much resemble a rat. Someone once said that the gliders with the longer snouts were from Indonesia. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> Whether true or not without any paper trail we now have come up with a mixture of gliders and have no idea about their origin. Another thing that puzzles me is that gliders seem to come in various sizes. I would think that all gliders of a certain gene pool would be approximately the same size. But with the mixing of gliders from different geographical areas they now seem to come in a wide range of sizes. I'm not talking about pygmy gliders or squirrel gliders but the gliders we all have as pets vary in size.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

Top
#71784 - 12/09/05 01:10 PM Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ]
Xglider Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 11157
Loc: Tampa, FL
Some very interesting and intriguing points to considerů
_________________________
* ~ * John * ~ * Sorry store is closed at this time.. <br>
Link -> ~~ XtremeGlider ~~ Home of the original Re~set Toys! ~~ <br>
Oct 2012 update.. miss my gliders and my
glider family and think of my friends often!!!

Top
#71785 - 12/09/05 02:11 PM Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ]
Badgersmommy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1382
Loc: Kentucky
I've wondered about that too Charlie. Badger has a short snout, rounded face and is HUGE compared to our other 3. Bonnie (his wife) is a white face with also a round face. Pepsi has a loooong snout and his tail curls all the way around and loops again. (never saw that before) He is also built very different from Badger. Grace also has a longer snout and is tiny in stature. Four gliders, none of mine look alike or are built alike. Most animals in the same gene pool at least pretty much look the same aside from color.
_________________________
Glider Kids - Badger and Bonnie, Pepsi and Grace, Victoria.. ahem..I mean ummm..Victor! and Isabella <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Top
#71786 - 12/09/05 02:24 PM Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Charlie..I agree.

Here's something else to think about. How large was the original genepool, from which the thousands of gliders born yearly in this country are derived? Gliders can not and have not been able to be imported to improve genetics for several years now. How many of the issues we are seeing may simply be due to not a big enough gene pool to start with, and what may in some form be almost inbreeding at this point? Then to breed that extraordinarily limited genepool even smaller for color variations...Is it any wonder we're having issues? I really don't mind being shot..but I do think breeding has gone way out of control at this point..especially considering the thousands of mill and brokered gliders that are sold each year (so you bought two from a mall, pet store, or show of some kind...at different times...who all get their gliders from the same sources, normally, what is to prevent them from being related? The "breeder" has no way to tell...then those gliders are bred and put into the gene pool...) And even those from reputable breeders-where did their first gliders come from, and what was their background and ancestry?? (And I am NOT saying it isn't MUCH better to buy from a reputable breeder--it IS, and we have several on this board whom I have great respect for.) I am saying we have a much bigger issue than most will either realize or admit to, diets aside, and regardless of where they originated.

Just a few thoughts to throw into the mix, here.


Edited by Xfilefan (12/09/05 02:27 PM)
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

Top
#71787 - 12/09/05 02:39 PM Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yes, definitely Xfilefan!

Hence I strongly feel...

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
It's also the reason why I think it would be interesting and perhaps ideal for some of the major breeders here in North America to perhaps look into purchasing captive gliders from countries abroad...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

So how about it breeders? What measures would that entail? How much money would that cost, and are people willing to pay that for the sake of diversifying the bloodpool for our little ones and our little ones to come?

I must say it's great to see people thinking critically about our gliders' future time.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

PS - Anyone up for breeding with my Chante? Some fresh wild genes straight from Australia! LOL.

Top
#71788 - 12/09/05 03:43 PM Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ]
Badgersmommy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1382
Loc: Kentucky
Mikey, does Chante look different than the "normal" looking ones we all see here? Sorry if that's worded wrong..you know what I mean! LOL I was just wondering because of the debate about ours looking different than the ones in Australia. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Glider Kids - Badger and Bonnie, Pepsi and Grace, Victoria.. ahem..I mean ummm..Victor! and Isabella <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Top
#71789 - 12/09/05 03:58 PM Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ]
Marz Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 708
Loc: Melbourne Australia
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
The glider community as a whole gives a lot of attention to the color variations of gliders. Something that puzzles me is the facial features. Some gliders have short snouts and rounded faces. Others have longer snouts and faces that much resemble a rat. Someone once said that the gliders with the longer snouts were from Indonesia. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> Whether true or not without any paper trail we now have come up with a mixture of gliders and have no idea about their origin. Another thing that puzzles me is that gliders seem to come in various sizes. I would think that all gliders of a certain gene pool would be approximately the same size. But with the mixing of gliders from different geographical areas they now seem to come in a wide range of sizes. I'm not talking about pygmy gliders or squirrel gliders but the gliders we all have as pets vary in size.
Charlie H

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Hi Charlie.
When viewing the photos of the gliders on these forums, many are distinctly different to what I am used to seeing here in Australia. On the whole here (in Australia), gliders have rounder faces, their ears are also rounder and less pointed.

I was wondering if anyone had photos of native Indonesian sugar gliders for a comparison? I had a quick look on google but I came up with only Australian and American sites with only references to Indonesia and no photos. It would be interesting to see what they look like and maybe that is where the longer snout originates from as you have heard.

Cheers Marz


Edited by Marz (12/09/05 04:01 PM)

Top
#71790 - 12/09/05 04:13 PM Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ]
Badgersmommy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1382
Loc: Kentucky
Here is a pic of Badger...my "different one" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'll get better ones later ..they are all over my puter and I need to put them in one folder..grrr


Attachments
501190-badgerchair.jpg (110 downloads)

_________________________
Glider Kids - Badger and Bonnie, Pepsi and Grace, Victoria.. ahem..I mean ummm..Victor! and Isabella <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Top
#71791 - 12/09/05 04:15 PM Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ]
Badgersmommy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1382
Loc: Kentucky
The other one...on my shoulder. He has cute round ears, head and body...lol He weighs app. 226 grams. (glides, runs..everything) not obese for his size.


Attachments
501191-badgershoulder.JPG (85 downloads)

_________________________
Glider Kids - Badger and Bonnie, Pepsi and Grace, Victoria.. ahem..I mean ummm..Victor! and Isabella <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Top
#71792 - 12/09/05 04:45 PM Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yes, Chante does look kinda different. Her face is pudgier, and she's plump, and I don't mean fat plump, but it's lean mass. I'm going to try to get a pic of her, but she's currently sleeping under my shirt. Hopefully she won't mind a quick photoshoot! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Her colours are interesting, too. In the light she's got reddish, orange hues.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Top
#71793 - 12/09/05 05:10 PM Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Here she is, alittle groggy, though. It doesn't really show as well in the feeble photos but there are differences in her profile that I see, that I'm assuming may be from her wild side. She's also big boned. She was bigger-boned than Dante (who was completely of captive glider blood). I've also noticed that she has a rather thick neck, and perhaps that's what may be making her face look pudgier. Behaviourally, though, I'm not sure if her apprehensiveness, strong will, and overall stealth comes from her wild genes or simply elements of her personality.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> She's currently in the army pattern SGGA 2005 pouch that was given with the Cal/vit supps in the raffle. She loves the blanket that came in the goodie bag and also the greenish blanket that came with the coconut swing made by Peggy.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />


Attachments
501210-Chante.JPG (118 downloads)


Top
#71794 - 12/09/05 06:02 PM Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ]
Keyosmama Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 04/13/05
Posts: 2175
Loc: Ontario , Canada
Wow, she does have a big ole neck! She's purdy though... She is built quite similar to my Zephyyr, who is massive despite his size but isn't fat or unhealthy looking, he is as active as the rest of my gliders but he is bigger than any of the other 6.... Ima try and get some newer pics of him (and the others too)... Interesting...
_________________________
Amanda, Jeff&

A Pomchi named Wickett
A Yorkie named Meeya
A Great Dane named Berlyn
5 Cats Kamorah, Aiko, Mo, Peekaboo, & Alice
Someday Ill have more suggies... frown
2 skin kids - Xander Finlay James March6 2010, and Rohan Kingsley July 5 2011


Top
#71795 - 12/09/05 06:27 PM Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


a favorite topic of mine...

In a small gene pool such as the one for the American glider there are two things that can happen... 1) deleterious alleles can be purged and result in a genetically similar, but healthy, population (similar to what has happened with the cheetas in Africa) 2) there may be enough possibly deleterious genes that the gliders will not be able to survive the purge (as almost happened to the prarie(sp) chicken in Illinois)

Charlie mentioned the breeding of dogs and some of the horrors that are now commonly associated with pure breds (hip dysplasia is almost all breeds, bladder stones in bishon fries, heart problems in many) due to the massive inbreeding... but he did not talk a/b some of the problems that have arisen due to what was bred for... a deep chest like that of the borzoi can lead to a condition similar to cholic(turing of GI tract), the face folds and nasal structure of bull dogs often makes them snort and have some trouble breeding... my question, is it possible that breeding for some of the colors could not also be tied to a physical characteristic that might, one day, lead to hitherto unknown problems.

case in point, it is my understanding that many mosaic/white patterened gliders are sterile... has anyone considered why? what would cause sterility to be linked to a certain coat color?

I could go on forever, but I think I've said what I wanted. A simple way to look at what has been done to the captive glider would be to look at DNA from wild species (across their natural distribution) and compare it to a cross section of the US's captive ones... perhaps there aren't as much genetic diversity in the wild popultaion as we would assume (though there probably is a lot condidering the variation in color and size and structure we have so far been able to breed out of these guys)

ahhh... man's interaction with his environment, beautiful... isn't it?

Top
#71796 - 12/09/05 06:50 PM Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
In a small gene pool such as the one for the American glider there are two things that can happen... 1) deleterious alleles can be purged and result in a genetically similar, but healthy, population (similar to what has happened with the cheetas in Africa)

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Yes, I was waiting for someone to bring up the example of African cheetahs! Excellent, Faery!

I don't think it's that immediate of a problem as whole just yet. I feel it's more of a concern right now for the exotic colour phenotypes. Actually what is being observed with our captive North American gliders is a perfectly natural process; evolution is happening on a small scale right now. It's a process called microevolution, and we are inadvertently creating a new animal by establishing a population within a restricted region (namely the North American pet trade) from a genepool, that though limited, is still capable of establishing completely, healthy animals. It's not necessarily a bad thing, and it depends really on how you look at it (as is seen in some of the more optimistic posts of this thread). Health complications, physiological morphs, phenotypic deletion, and such happens even in the wild where a populace is forced to propogate within a restricted region. We're playing God and we don't even know it (which entails we are witnesses to the "not so pretty side" of things)... or perhaps we're more analagous to a sudden geographical boundary like the breaking off of a land mass or the erection of a mountain or something!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Top
#71797 - 12/09/05 07:06 PM Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I love the idea of the American pet trade being a mountain... very poetic!

I only pointed out the bad because it's what's of concern and what comes to mind... without knowing exactly how the color genes work, we don't know what could be linked to the colors, or what may have cropped up in one of those lines... and I do agree that the color lines are of the most concern with this

In the American quarter horse there was a stud named _____ (my roomate would kill me if she knew I couldn't remember his name!) he had a genetic defect, but was a great horse and a champion etc... and was bred all over... this genetic disease is soo harmful that the AQHA has/is seriously not allowing any horse from his blood lines to register quarter horse in the hopes of getting the allele out of the population... a good example of what can happen when a line is based off of an individual...

hopefully there's no chance of this kind of disaster happening to our little ones...

It's too bad we can't go back in time and see just how many individuals originating from where set up the population we have now... so unless someone with access to cells and a DNA lab is willing to run the gels and assays to figure out how deep the gene pool is, we'll just have to wait and hope.

amazing how much power humans really have... to be able to produce animals that are virtually unrecognizable to the original stock (think of a pomerainian and a wolf or the domestic cow vs its ancestors)

apparently I hadn't said everything I wanted to, topics of evolution/genetics makes me long winded, I apologize.

Top
#71798 - 12/09/05 08:18 PM Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ]
Keyosmama Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 04/13/05
Posts: 2175
Loc: Ontario , Canada
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />

Faery the horses name was IMPRESSIVE, (he was half Thoroughbred so he was an appendix QH rather than a purebred)and the disease is called HYPP (Hyperkalemic Periodic Paralysis)

There has been much line breeding within his lines and unfortunately has created quite an isssue with AQHA and APHA (QH and Paint Horse registries) And you are correct they are very strict now with testing of these horses to ensure they do not carry the allele/gene that carries this defect. Any carriers are being asked not to be bred and if they are may be denied registry by these associations.

What happens is these horses mature much to quickly being that the lines are used mainly for 'Halter' events in which horses are shown most extensively in their yealing year and are fed a diet high in grains, proteins etc to bulk up their size, furthur making it difficult for the yealing to be able to grow peoperly, their joints and bones just cannot support the mass they put on during their youngest and most developmental years... here is an explanation taken from one of my ccollege books:

Genes carry coded messages to the protein-making apparatus in the body - these proteins become things that are as diverse as muscles, hooves, and microscopic channels in muscle cells. Mutations tend to occur spontaneously in certain individuals - indeed, we all likely will have mutations in our genetic code at some point, but, generally, no outward effect is seen. Occasionally, as with the Impressive mutation, the consequences are enormous. As far as we know, HYPP is only seen in horses that have inherited the gene for the disease Impressive's bloodline. That is why we generally see the disease in Quarterhorses and horses that have Quarterhorse blood, such as Apaloosas, Paints, and Palominos. As fate would have it, not only did Impressive have a genetic mutation for his muscle sodium channel, but he also had an outwardly very desirable trait - his musculature - that resulted in him being a leading sire, thus, by the early 90s, over 50,000 Quarterhorses had Impressive inheritance. So, Impressive's physique was, in a way, a Trojan horse that allowed a huge and consequential flaw to be transmitted to a large number of horses.

HYPP in the horse is a dominant trait. Remember that we all receive two copies of most genes - one from our mothers and one from our fathers. With a dominant trait, the mutation only has to be present on one copy of the gene in order for the trait - in this case the disease, HYPP - to be seen. With recessive genes, on the other hand, both genes must have the mutation for the disease to be seen. What are the practical consequences of this? If an HYPP positive horse is bred to an HYPP negative horse, at least 50% of their offspring will have HYPP, and up to 100% of their offspring will have HYPP, depending if the positive horse has inherited the trait from both parents (homozygous) or only from one (heterozygous). It also seems that homozygous horses are more severely affected than heterozygous horses - it may be that with two copies of the abnormal gene, more of the muscle cells are affected.

Anyhow, I hope this explains the IMPRESSIVE problem (hardy har har) in horses... i don't know too much about genetics and stuff in other aniamsl but I keep up on my horse stuff.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> Anyways sorry to go off topic there but as a horse person i felt the need to... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

A

Attached is a photo of IMPRESSIVE...


Attachments
501251-impressive.jpg (46 downloads)

_________________________
Amanda, Jeff&

A Pomchi named Wickett
A Yorkie named Meeya
A Great Dane named Berlyn
5 Cats Kamorah, Aiko, Mo, Peekaboo, & Alice
Someday Ill have more suggies... frown
2 skin kids - Xander Finlay James March6 2010, and Rohan Kingsley July 5 2011


Top
#71799 - 12/09/05 08:23 PM Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks, Keyosmama... I'm glad you knew what I was talking about and were able to explain it!

Top
#71800 - 12/09/05 08:36 PM Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Melanie, you hit on something that really struck our interest. Since we deal with multiple rescues we have noticed that some of the male/female pairs we have do not breed. No need for neutering! These gliders are from white face blood lines and are well within the age range for reproducing but never mate or reproduce. We have two females and four males that show no intrest in mateing. Of course we have had others that are just the opposite and seem to be overly sexually active. The ones that do not reproduce makes me wonder who else has gliders that are like this. Have we already started a trend?
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

Top
#71801 - 12/10/05 10:56 PM Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have mixed feelings about a possible trend in sterile animals... if it is true, is it such a bad thing if it does not entail any other problems for the glider? It would help keep the glider population down which could possibly lead to less rescues for people like yourself, Charlie, to take in and try to rehome.

People have tried, and probably are still trying, to reduce pest/invasive species by sterilizing the population and or introducing sterile males. I'm not saying that gliders are either, but they are falling into a category where more and more people seem to be acquring gliders with no real idea how to take care of them (I was just talking to my vet about the trend she's seen in the number and health of the gliders that come in). This trend worries me because there is no "easy way out" when taking care of gliders. So would having a genetically sterile sect of the population be soo bad?

On the other hand, how do you try to control the "sterility"? First we would need a way pinpoint what was causing it, what kind of mutation, and at the same time, where did it start? Why is it in the white lines? Does it crop up in any of the other lines? Is it possibly something from the natural evolution of the animal? (meaning whites are not likely to survive in the wild due to predation, could there also be a genetic problem linked to that particular coat color?)

interesting... anyone have any other ideas/insights?

Top
#71802 - 12/11/05 07:51 AM Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Melanie, on the thought of producing sterile gliders, maybe we have somehow managed to come up with a genetic mis-match. For instance a male donkey can breed a mare and produce a mule. Mules do not reproduce. Maybe there is more differences in the sub species of gliders than we realize.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

Top
#71803 - 12/11/05 09:16 AM Re: What Have We Done To Sugar Gliders? [Re: ]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16733
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Charlie, I was just getting ready to post just about the same thing as you this morning.

Watched a program last night and they were talking about the Horse and Donkey producing a mule, and them being sterile. Also talked about a Tiger and Lion producing a Liger, however they are HUGE HUGE cats, they are also sterile. Does make one wonder about the subspecies.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love« Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >




Moderator:  Feather, KarenE, Ladymagyver, Philwojo 
Sugar Glider Help Page



Please click above to see how you can help!!

Moon
CURRENT MOON
Who's Online
0 registered (), 26 Guests and 66 Spiders online.
Key: Owner, Admin, Mod
Newest Members
saharasnow, Louise, MzT3xdafun, Chrissy3, kinn2388
6304 Registered Users
Forum Stats
4 posts in the last 24hrs
6304 Members
134 Forums
8809 Topics
147026 Posts

Max Online: 478 @ 07/15/07 01:24 AM
Last 10 New Topics
"Homemade" yogie treats
by sugarfluff
46 minutes 51 seconds ago
Joey or Full grown
by kinn2388
08/16/17 09:43 AM
How could I help this glider?
by MomoShiva
08/15/17 05:21 PM
One day too late
by CrypticDelirium
08/15/17 03:06 PM
a strange Diabetic question
by mechnut450
08/15/17 11:37 AM
Glider in distress
by maycstay
08/15/17 12:11 AM
Dear Crabby
by TwoDog
08/14/17 06:10 AM
Let's see your cages!
by Nanina_Bryan
08/13/17 10:11 PM
Black Beauty Male
by Srlb
08/13/17 12:02 PM
End of my rope...
by TwoDog
08/12/17 04:30 AM
(Views)Popular Topics
I just found a lump on Timmy's chest--HELP! 20200095
Spencer needs your prayers/good thoughts 12460926
TEXAS 625942
Pitbull biter needs advice/help 559864
OHIO 482555
Member Titles 430662
MISSOURI 367157
HOLY CRACKERS AMERICAN HPW's 341499
OKLAHOMA 328372
URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered 321977
Supported Browser
This site was tested and is best viewed in Google Chrome & Mozilla FireFox



Firefox 3

Download your copy today!!!


GliderCENTRAL
©1998-2017