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#72531 - 12/13/05 03:30 AM Diets? Rounding them out, suggested mods, etc?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well, right now I have my "Little Man" (yes, that's his name) on the bml diet. All is good so far, but I've heard a few people complain about this diet, particularly that the honey that is included in it is actually toxic to an extent to these guys, hence why they can't have honey unless mixed into the leadbeaters mix. The suggested replacement I've heard from several sources is either half honey half applejuice, or even all applejuice.

Also, I've heard of some people replacing the "plain yogurt and juice" combination in the leadbeaters with a flavored yogurt, which I personally like cause right now I mix his leadbeaters about 50/50 with flavored, non-fat yogurt (no aspartame) and he loves it (not to mention all that calcium between the Glider-cal and yogurt combo).

Some people swear by diets that include a dry staple food, some say it can cause "lump jaw". Some people love the bml, some say it's overrated and to avoid it. I've even had one person tell me their gliders never bred until they switched off the bml to priscilla price's diet. Now he says all 4 pairs breed at least twice a year.

I want to keep his diet well-rounded, while making it balanced. I'd rather not dramatically change his diet as this point since he seems to be in great health, but I'm just wondering what's ok to include as additions in the bml diet other than the leadbeaters mix, mealworms, fruits, and veggies? From the research I've done into the bml diet, it's original intent was to be a PART of a larger, more rounded diet, not to be the sole diet itself.

Heard some people suggest diluted gatorade as a great replacement (and supposedly healthier cause of the added electrolytes) to nectar, and that you can include that in the bml diet in addition to providing regular water. Also heard people use a dry staple to keep in their cage 24/7 along with the bml diet (ex. monkey biscuits). Some people say dry food is no good though cause of the "lump jaw" issue, so I'm not using any dry food anymore until I hear good reason to do otherwise. Also, is chopping up the fruits and veggies and freezing them in batches ok nutrition wise?

I know everyones opinions on all this will probably be different, but I'd really appreciate those of you who have extensively researched into diets to help me out here. I've heard enough of "he said, she said" deals, and I need some well researched info for what works.

Thanks guys.
AC n Little Man

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" />

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#72532 - 12/13/05 11:38 AM Re: Diets? Rounding them out, suggested mods, etc? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oh boy! Here we go...

Well, the whole diet issue is always so heated around here and it's the first thing I learned when I first joined, as I quickly found myself in a heated debate with Bourbon as a newbie, and I will never forget that experience! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> . To be quite honest when I first came on the boards, to me it seemed like there was this huge BML cult following, and there were several concerns I had about the diet. Needless to say, since then I have become a BML user, but I don't consider myself a BML cult member. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Just to clear things up: There is no clear scientific evidence that solid food causes lumpy jaw. It was once thought to cause the condition, however, that has since been deemed speculation (in the same manner in which some glider owners feel that gliders cannot pass gas well, which is also mere speculation that people simply began to believe). If you ever get a chance to feel how solid and tough Acacia or Eucalypt bark is (which gliders constantly are stripping with their teeth from the trees to get at the exudates found from within the wooden vascular tissues), you'll understand why I feel the "hard pellet=lumpy jaw" information is somewhat shady.

Many pieces of information go out, based on the "WELL, THAT PERSON SAYS IT'S TRUE SO IT MUST BE TRUE" mentality, and as a result lots of info that may be false circulates quickly within the glider community. For a long time people thought GRAPES were toxic (I'm guessing because it caused dogs to get ill awhile back)! I still feed grapes and forever will feed grapes. They contain so many great nutrients (including flavonoids, which are cancer inhibitors).

In terms of gatorade, I'd rather not feed gatorade (unless you're dealing with a really sick/weak glider that needs an electrolyte boost), seeing as it is purposely high in sodium, stimulating the thrist response, so the human athelete continues to drink and continually hydrates himself with more water and electrolytes (i.e. more Gatorade - smart move on the company's part $$$$$$$$) that is lost in the sweat and through activity. Though it may be "in you" perhaps it shouldn't be in the glider on the regular!

In terms of honey, I'm mixed on the issue. Honey is good because it contains peroxides which are effective antibacterials. Also, honey contains several of the sugar components found in honeydew, i.e. secretions from sap-sucking insects, which wild gliders feed on in the wild. Its very precursor is nectar, which gliders also feed on in the wild (though from different flora, and a great degree of varience in nutritional content due to that is rather questionable IMO). I'm not sure I've heard about honey being toxic before. If you could please PM me the source of your info, I'd love to take a look at it. The original Leadbeater's mix was actually initially designed to cater to the nutritional boundaries and needs of the Leadbeater's possum, not the sugar glider. Since then, it's become a rather generic mixture for sustaining related animals (hence, fed to gliders too).

Anyway, truthfully we're all in the same situation as you, unfortunately. The problem is that there has been little scientific study on the matter of pet glider nutrition here in North America, and we've come a long way based on educated guesses, trial and error, personal experiences, necropsies, and some other clinical applications I suppose.

From what I understand, there is PLENTY, PLENTY, and PLENTY still (Pockets has really opened my eyes to the plentitude of info) of scientific research and info done in Australia all on record on these little ones <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />, but from my experience on these boards, it usually isn't readily accepted, and hence applied, seeing as many feel our gliders are different from wild gliders, many feel advancements here in Captive Glider North America are superceding those studies, some feel the studies are outdated, etc. Again, no one is sure and it becomes a matter of opinions.

In total it's really up to the individual to assess the information they take in and to research any new info themselves, so they can make a sound judgement on what to feed their babies. I'm assuming that there isn't one way to successfully raise a long-living glider anyway, just as there isn't one coorrect way of raising/establishing a human child. Different choices can still lead to the same goal (in this case a healthy glider that is able to function properly and live long, which by the way is also highly determined through GENES, perhaps just as much as diet), while it is still possible that much of the guidelines that exist may be partially if not entirely opinion-based.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#72533 - 12/13/05 02:40 PM Re: Diets? Rounding them out, suggested mods, etc? [Re: ]
angelic4296 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3264
Loc: Northeast U.S.
wow Mikey, nice info, I LOVE these boards for this very reason...dweezel, while I can't give you what Mikey just did, I will tell you, in response to your last question, that I either buy fresh fruit, cut it up and freeze it or buy my fruits and veggies already frozen....I know fresh is better sometimes, and I try to give fresh when I can, but for example, it usually takes Gizzy a week and a half to get through a mango, and they don't last that long fresh, so I freeze what I need to so that he'll have his favorite fruits for a while!
_________________________
Jess

2 spoiled gliders, Gizzy (6/05) and Ruthie (?/05) <3

Please consider rescuing first!

Please remember to complete your surveys at http://www.sugargroup.org/ - help better the lives of gliders everywhere smile

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#72534 - 12/13/05 06:10 PM Re: Diets? Rounding them out, suggested mods, etc? [Re: ]
Anmaw Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/03/05
Posts: 659
Loc: Hernando, MS - USA
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />Mikey did a very good job of answering your questions and advising you. Wish I knew as much as he does about these things.

The only thing I would like to add is about the honey - you have to use processed honey. I believe the reason for not using raw/unprocessed honey is the same as not giving it to infants - botulism. I could be wrong but I think that's the reason.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />Ever since I saw your first post I have wanted to ask/inquire about your name - dweezel. It's very unusual and for some reason I want to associate it with a musician who is no longer with us. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />Don't remember much about him, but do remember the name.


Edited by Anmaw (12/13/05 06:12 PM)
_________________________
Becky
Guardian of Stryder,
my Grandson's Sugar Glider

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#72535 - 12/13/05 06:52 PM Re: Diets? Rounding them out, suggested mods, etc? [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Becky, you are half right about the reasoning of the opponents of using honey. Botulism danger is one but actually is insignificant. The other complaint is that honey will give gliders a short term sugar spike and put them on a high low energy roller coaster. Like giving a small child a candy bar. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mikey for future references some reason that hard dry food will become embedded in the saliva glands and lead to 'lumpy jaw'. Again only speculation! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#72536 - 12/13/05 08:49 PM Re: Diets? Rounding them out, suggested mods, etc? [Re: ]
Anmaw Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/03/05
Posts: 659
Loc: Hernando, MS - USA
Okay, Charlie - me being at least half right is better than being completely wrong. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> The thing that caught my attention about the honey was that something was said about it being "toxic", so botulism was what came to mind. In the BML recipe it says no raw/unprocessed honey. Personally, have never understood why so many "sweets" are added to their diets. I'm sure there's a reason. My husband would love any kind of "sweet" added to his diet. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Becky
Guardian of Stryder,
my Grandson's Sugar Glider

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#72537 - 12/14/05 01:57 AM Re: Diets? Rounding them out, suggested mods, etc? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


My honey doesn't say whether it's raw or not. Just called pure honey. Hopefully it's not a problem. As for the sugar spike, the other foods mixed with the honey in the bml will prevent a sugar spike by slowing down the digestion of the honey. Yes, I've studied diet and nutrition (was part of my profession as a personal trainer for 8 years).

As far as gatorade goes, though I found most of your info extremely informative, I had to disagree with the gatorade remarks. Gatorade actually hydrates (at least for humans) far better than water ever could. The sodium content in it is to replenish depleted sodium within our bodies. Next time you see a very overweight sweaty person, take a lick of their arm (just kidding, please don't!). Anyway, you'd find they'd taste more like a salt lick than anything else. That's because we lose a lot of sodium sweating, even during normal everyday activity. Gatorade not only replenishes lost sodium, but electrolytes as well. I've found the bml diet to be very low in sodium, so thought diluted gatorade a few times a week might be good for them. Many people seem to encourage it, and you hear about "gliderade" all the time (same as gatorade).

Though too much sodium can cause hydration problems and high blood pressure, too little sodium can cause health problems as well. After all, our blood has as much salt as ocean water (yes, a known fact). Not sure if gliders are the same, but sure they need at least some sodium in their diets, and diluted gatorade seems a good way to go.

Anything in excess is usually bad, but too little can be bad too. Too little cholesterol in a diet can cause irritability and mood swings, too much leads to clogging of arteries. Too little fat leads to a slower metabolism (less energy, etc), too much leads to obesity. It's all about consuming in moderation.

With the frozen or fresh veggies/fruits debate, I think I'd much rather start using frozen ones. I do know frozen ones carry more nutrients than the "fresh" ones bought in a store, mainly because the "fresh" ones are given time to lose nutrients in shipping, where the frozen ones are frozen prior to shipping, locking in more of the nutrients. My main concern with frozen is the taste changes after having been frozen, and I'm not sure if that will turn them off of the veggies/fruits. I also have to find out if they have veggies that can be served immediately without having to cook. That way, I can put them in the cage frozen so they'll last longer throughout the night (he only eats mealies when he first gets up, and doesn't eat anything else till way later). I just spend way too much time chopping up veggies and fruits at night that he just doesn't eat, and saving time by using pre-cut fruits and veggies will give me more time to focus on him rather than his food prep.

Thanks again to everyones feedback on all this, and good luck in everyones quest to find "the holy grail" of diets.

Take care,
AC, Nicole, n Little Man <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" />

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#72538 - 12/14/05 03:14 AM Re: Diets? Rounding them out, suggested mods, etc? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Perhaps the study I read must have been sponsored by their competition or something! LOL. Actually, I still have it printed up lying around here somewhere in this mess I call my work station. It outlined a number of questionables regarding the brand known as Gatorade, and included a list of better alternatives and a breakdown of their energy-boosting/hydration compounds; some of the products were only available in other countries and had to be ordered in bulk online! The sodium issue with Gatorade was one that I seem to remember off hand. I have never given my gliders Gatorade nor Gliderade, which I believe is a different thing.

Anyway, with regards to adding gatorade to the BML, Bourbon herself would probably also advise against this. It really does throw off the nutrient ratios; to whatever degree that would be, I don't know. If the gliders are already healthy and don't have problems with maintaining normal internal water levels (and are drinking their water) and if their energy levels are normal (which is much less energy than is required by wild gliders who obviously aren't supplimented with Gatorade), I'm not sure if there would be a need for additional hydration and electrolytes. I do know that Gatorade is used for ill, weak, and recouperating gliders, however, for obvious reasons.

These are simply my thoughts on the matter, I suppose...

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#72539 - 12/14/05 05:16 AM Re: Diets? Rounding them out, suggested mods, etc? [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
I can't see any logical reasoning for giving gliders Gatorade or Gliderade. Unless it is an emergency situation and the glider is dehydrated and Pedialite or Sub Q is not available. For liquid on a daily basis all the glider needs is just plain ole water.

I would like to know what the reasoning is behind the statement that a glider should not eat or drink anything containing salt (sodium). Mammals require a certain amount of salt in their diets. Wild animals have been known to travel for miles in search of salt licks. Is the 'no salt in the gliders diet' theory another old wives tale?
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#72540 - 12/14/05 11:40 AM Re: Diets? Rounding them out, suggested mods, etc? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


*looks for reference on no sodium*

Oh! Charlie, are you talking about the gatorade statement? To clarify, I wasn't suggesting sodium was bad. Earlier in the thread, I had mentioned that Gatorade was purposely loaded with sodium (salt) to encite the thrist response which would encourage the human to continue to drink more Gatorade and replenish electrolytes and water lost through sweat. In a study I read a few years back it had mentioned that the problem with most athletes is that they aren't constantly drinking, and as a result get dehydrated during their physical activity. Absorbing water into the body through drinking does not happen immediately, and so it's especially important to be drinking constantly BEFORE and DURING the activity as well (as opposed to just after), and Gatorade encourages that through the supplication of relatively high sodium doses in the drink, and I mentioned that it was a smart business move $$$ on the company's part, as well. I wouldn't want to upset that water balance in my glider in that way by enciting a super thirst response, and it was one of the reasons I don't give my glider(s) Gatorade if I don't have a need to. It would make sense to give it to dehydrated gliders and gliders who are otherwise not drinking their water and are weak.

I do know that several here do feed Gatorade and Gliderade to their gliders as a personal preference, and I completely respect that, too. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#72541 - 12/14/05 12:53 PM Re: Diets? Rounding them out, suggested mods, etc? [Re: ]
Badgersmommy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1382
Loc: Kentucky
Gatorade tastes like salty spit..*shivers* LOL
_________________________
Glider Kids - Badger and Bonnie, Pepsi and Grace, Victoria.. ahem..I mean ummm..Victor! and Isabella <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#72542 - 12/14/05 05:50 PM Re: Diets? Rounding them out, suggested mods, etc? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Badgersmommy....EEWWW...LOL...and I agree...my boys like it but I think it is nasty. (but then, I think mealies are nasty, too). I do give the furbies those, but would not give glider/gatorade unless sick. (just based on my own research & beliefs)

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#72543 - 12/14/05 08:07 PM Re: Diets? Rounding them out, suggested mods, etc? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wow i'm glad i never asked about diets. this is intense.

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#72544 - 12/14/05 09:29 PM Re: Diets? Rounding them out, suggested mods, etc? [Re: KellBell468]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well, the two reasons I'd like to add the gatorade was this: reason # 1)variety - wouldn't you get sick of eating power bars, fruits and veggies ALL the time? figured giving them a dry mix like monkey biscuits as a staple food 24/7 and gatorade every few days provides a variety. Plus, offsetting the diet shouldn't be an issue, cause animals tend to crave/eat what they need for nutritional reasons. Additionally, the bml as it is now was not how it was originally intended to be. The origins came from a zoo, which used the bml only as a small part of their diet regimen. So, it already has been offset.

reason #2) - Rounding the diet out more. Figured giving them more of a variety will give them certain micro and macro-nutrients that simply wouldn't be found in the "strict" bml diet alone. This could cause deficiencies in things simply cause the glider receives nothing with it in it. I don't know about gliders, but for humans, variety increases the quality of our diet for that reason.

Though this isn't a particular reason for the gatorade/dry food/etc., there is also the issue that these guys simply don't eat "bml" in the wild. They have a far wider variety, and though most people say water is fine, from my findings, they actually consume very little water in the wild, drinking the nectar from trees instead. Under that premise, gatorade is far closer to nectar than water, and might provide their bodies with a better balance. I don't think gatorade is a must for a healthy glider, but I do think that adding at least some variety to the bml diet will unquestionably make a happy glider as compared to one that's dreading eating the same meals again and again.

Not saying I'm right, not saying anyone is. It's all a matter of opinion, but I can't see any harm in a bit of variety to a diet that has already been changed time and time again due to new findings. Besides, diluted gatorade would only provide them with a very slight bit of salt, but will add new taste to an alternative to their everyday water.

Maybe I'll look into powerade/gliderade and see their sodium contents? Maybe there is one with a little less, but from what I had studied, gatorade has a great balance in it. Then again, it's not made for gliders, so maybe one with a low sodium content would be better. Guess opinions on diets really do vary a lot, eh?

Take care and thanks for all your help guys,
AC, Nicole, n Little Man <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" />

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#72545 - 12/14/05 10:36 PM Re: Diets? Rounding them out, suggested mods, etc? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


LOL Yeah dweezel! It is a pretty hot topic. A lot of what you said there was exactly some of the same things I used to say when I first came on here in regards to BML.

Referring to variety now, I too had a problem initally with the blandness of it all (i.e. the BML diet). Like you said "Who would want to eat the same old stuff every night?", but as I did more research I began to discover that gliders are actually more specialized in feeding habits than other organisms like humans, rats, etc. In the wild they feed relatively from the same group of foodstuffs and have a rather limited variety in foods; less than a Grizzly bear would, for instance. It's just the way they've evolved. The very glider physiology is different from the human in so many ways.

They wake up, and go to the same cavities they'd excavated over time in the eucalypt trees, feeding on the same exudates. They glean from the same eucalypt leaves for manna. They feed on the same group of insects (scarab beetles and moths, the larvae of which feed from pastures adjacent to the trees and the adult forms breed and are found living on and around the trees, hence suitable glider food) that are available to them.

Evolution has shaped the gliders to be specialized feeders. [:"blue"]Not all animals thrive off a variety, that we speak of here. There are a tonne of animals that eat/drink the same darn things every single day/night of their lives, and to us humans that may seem "bland", but to them it's life[/]. The degree to which the organism favours variety is relative to the species. Like Koalas who feed mainly on Eucalyupt leaves and pandas who feed mainly on Bamboo and cowbirds that feed on ticks and vampire bats that feed on mammalian blood, they've been designed to obtain their necessary nutrients from a specific food item(s). Feeding from a limited/specified variety in food forms is not a bad thing in the least (though again it may be for us humans, who just have that palate for a long table of a Thanksgiving feast of foods)! It's an ecological, evolutionary adaptation. It's a beautiful thing, really!

Bourbon once pointed out to me that you may notice that your gliders have a routine when they wake up. They expect the same foods to be there. A lot of times if you abruptly change what they expect to be in the bowl (say to provide that "variety"), they won't eat. Yes, they will like certain foods for a time, then dislike them for a certain period, only to like them again later, but generally, gliders just naturally like that familiarity in their food. It's how it ahppens in nature and it's likely how it happens in your home.

Now, I speak in a general sense regarding the wild gliders, seeing as cross-geographically their diets do vary, depending on the flora and fauna available in the area.

But do you see my point here? The gliders' very biology is designed to feed from that specific array of foods (gums, nectar, manna, pollen/flowers/insects).

However, don't get me wrong! I'm not saying nutritional variety in their diet is bad. That's something different. Gliders need their nutrients! If you're concerned with nutritional variety, vary the fruits and veggies you feed. You'll be amazed at how nutritionally different each fruit and veggie is from the other.

I know as a human personal trainer you are well aware that humans need variety for a balanced diet in order to cover a wide array of vitamins and nutrients. Gliders biologically and digestively are not like humans in that sense. They get their variety from the array of nutrients found within the specific food stuffs they eat. The different insects feed on different plants and meat matter, and the nutrients thus go to the glider once eaten. If you want them to receive that wide-array of nutrients in your home, gut-load your insects!!! Madagascar Hissing Cockroaches make excellent gut-loaded meals for your glider! The plants and trees gliders feed on, absorb nutrients from the soils and from feeding on the different species (mostly Eucalyptus, Acacia, and Banksia of which many species exist) of plants/trees and their different parts (saps, gums, manna, flowers, pollen) gliders get their array of nutrients.

My whole point is, providing nutritional variety and the provision of nutritional diversity are really two different things (and gliders in the wild don't generally feed from a diverse array of food, like a monkey would, for instance), and it's a matter of providing both direct (i.e. varying the fruits and veggies) and indirect (i.e. gut-loading your insects) variety that will ensure your glider gets what it needs nutritionally.

Just my view on things, and hence, over time and after really looking into the glider diet issue I've gone from the "wild" perspective on the matter to a rather "captive-wild" perspective.

Dweezel, I suggest you get the book MARSUPIAL NUTRITION by Dr. Ian Humes. It may shed some light on the topic. You will see that gliders actually feed from a specific set of botanicals and for the most part feed the same group of insects.

Chances are, adding Gatorade to the BML wouldn't do any harm, but I feel that if I support such things on the boards, many will begin to feel like the BML diet (or other diets for that matter) are also as flexible, and will thereby begin making their own additives to the recipe. That to me is a disasterous slippery slope.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#72546 - 12/14/05 11:18 PM Re: Diets? Rounding them out, suggested mods, etc? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


But then we go into the topic of... if they're so specialized why do I feed BML, which contains so many components that don't exist in a wild glider's diet. Here's where I'm on both sides. I am completely for the "wild diet for captive gliders" argument. The Lord knows how many times I've tried to debate on its behalf!

However, providing a diet completely of native flora and fauna unfortunately is not possible on this side of the globe, so I have to seek other alternatives (though there are many here who do feed native foodstuffs to their gliders - pollen, gums, flowers, etc).

I have chosen BML not because it's the most popular (even though I'm not sure it is at this point), but because of results it's brought about with so many satisfied glider owners owning healthy gliders that are testament to its efficiency. I have however been eyeing Big_Ern's diet and PML for some time, and have been taking in what others who feed it have been saying about it, before I switch over, if I ever do decide to. Charlie's post in the RESEARCH threads have really put a spin on things (especially with my perception on BML and other diets requiring vit/cal supplimentation), so I'm currently seeing where the whole diet issue will take us as a community, as our ideas evolve and we continue to learn from our results. I'm all for the NATIVE WILD diet but if it's even remotely possible that we can provide our gliders a complete, balanced, and safe diet using materials we have just a few blocks away at the grocery store, then by all means BRING IT! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#72547 - 12/14/05 11:54 PM Re: Diets? Rounding them out, suggested mods, etc? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Again Mikey, your senior member status knowledge gives us a great example of how truly intricate the diets for these little guys goes. You really do know your stuff there, and thanks again for your info. I think you may have misinterpreted my whole gatorade adding deal though. I intended to add it to his diet, but not to his bml mixed food. I only intended to add it to a 50/50 mix with water and put it in his cage in a small bowl maybe 3 times a week or so. I by no means intended to actually add it to his nightly mix.

I also understand your hesitancy to encourage people trying their own variations to the bml diet. This could cause tons of problems, and I would personally encourage people to stick with one particular diet as well. I'm just listening to breeders suggestions who seem to have done their research, and though I don't want to change the bml diet I have him on, I just figured I'd give him other options of other things on the side. The only things I'm thinking of would be the dry staple supplied 24/7 since he does wake up off and on during the day to eat, and the occasional gatorade.

Adding a dry staple to a bml diet is another very controversial issue from what I've heard, but I just think if people encourage certain different things for different reasons but they're all ok for a glider, focusing on a primary diet with a slight addition should be perfectly fine. Might be better, might be slightly worse to be honest. Best bet is to research as much as possible and go with sound nutritional advice.

All the best,
AC, Nicole, n Little Man

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#72548 - 12/15/05 12:31 AM Re: Diets? Rounding them out, suggested mods, etc? [Re: ]
Badgersmommy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1382
Loc: Kentucky
[:"blue"] They wake up, and go to the same cavities they'd excavated over time in the eucalypt trees, feeding on the same exudates. They glean from the same eucalypt leaves for manna. They feed on the same group of insects (scarab beetles and moths, the larvae of which feed from pastures adjacent to the trees and the adult forms breed and are found living on and around the trees, hence suitable glider food) that are available to them. [/]

Couldn't ya just see the excavation going straight down when (an airplane was flying overhead and a box drops out)..gliders being curious..see..see...OMGOSH!! It's McDonalds French Fries!!!! hehe...
_________________________
Glider Kids - Badger and Bonnie, Pepsi and Grace, Victoria.. ahem..I mean ummm..Victor! and Isabella <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#72549 - 12/15/05 12:35 AM Re: Diets? Rounding them out, suggested mods, etc? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oh Dweezel, you rock my boat! Yeah, I did misinterpret how you were serving gatorade! I thought you were mixing it directly in with the BML in the blender. That's my fault for not reading of course!

Yes, I know exactly where you are coming from, though, with all this madness. This diet stuff is really crazy and discussing it makes people go crazy! LOL. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#72550 - 12/15/05 08:17 AM Re: Diets? Rounding them out, suggested mods, etc? [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
I can understand people's reasoning for wanting to introduce variety into their gliders diet. This is the same logic that causes people to sneak table scraps to their dogs. It makes the people feel good about giving the dog the scraps but does not help the dog at all. If you will read the cautions on pet foods as well as feed for livestock you will see that the recommendation is to change diets slowly over a period of several days. Animals are not like people and adding and deleting items to and from the diet can do much more harm than good.

It does sound like a good idea to offer variety to hedge against leaving out something they need. But by the same logic you could be adding something they don't need. While I am not against trying to improve upon the captive gliders diet we need to be very careful about the items we experiment with.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#72551 - 12/15/05 08:24 AM Re: Diets? Rounding them out, suggested mods, etc? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


So true Mikey.. and I did a lot of research before deciding on BigErn's diet instead of BML. our babies are all thriving.. and I find it easy enough to mkae, I know due to my own health issues there are issues even for humans sometimes in getting nutrition from certain foods and I take acacia powder for both its fiber content and its calcium in my diet, so I love that his diet includes it in the main mix...

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#72552 - 12/15/05 10:36 AM Re: Diets? Rounding them out, suggested mods, etc? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I make my own "syrup" I use instead of honey. 1 part water to 3 parts granulated sugar, boil till all sugar is dissolved. Thusly, carbs are added without the worry of botulism, microbes, whether it's pasteurized, etc. etc. etc. You KNOW it's clean, it was boiled for crips sake. Also, I only give them, and prepare their food, using bottled water. Tap has too much chlorine, LOTS of dissolved minerals and metals you donít really want. If you feed lots of sweets (grapes, corn, honey/syrup) make sure they get lots of exercise, they use their wheel lots, etc. If you don't, you'll have some fat gliders in a hurry.

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#72553 - 12/15/05 04:02 PM Re: Diets? Rounding them out, suggested mods, etc? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have to agree with you on feeding your glider bottled water. Up in NY, we had very little additives in our water (lots of pesticides from old farms, but that's another story). Since I've been here in FL, the water tastes like pool water to me cause of the chlorine content. Hence, I won't drink it, and I certainly wouldn't expect my Little Man to either.

Anyway, think I'll be sticking with the bml diet and giving him all the regular stuff, and just give him the diluted gatorade maybe 3 times a week and see if there's any difference at all. Also gonna leave a dry staple in there at all times, cause I just worry about him eating the bml mix in the wee hours of the morning before I take it out and the stuff being partially spoiled at that point. Not sure how long it takes the stuff to spoil on average, but I'd rather play it safe.

Good luck to all out there on working on diets. Though the bml isn't the easiest diet to work with, he seems to be doing fine on it. Again, thanks for everyones advice and help with all this.

Take care,
AC, Nicole, n Little Man

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#72554 - 12/20/05 01:30 AM Re: Diets? Rounding them out, suggested mods, etc? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well, after much research, I think I'm switching our gliders off the infamous BML diet and slowly weaning our babies onto priscilla price's diet. Her diet by the way does actually include gatorade, and not the glideraide.

I know many swear by the BML diet, however the BML is a modification from an original Australian diet which has been dramatically modified due to the US's lack of some of the original ingredients, not to mention the bml which we know of was supposed to be a part of a larger diet that began in a zoo's diet regimen as only a part of a far more varied diet. It has been taken so far out of place with such little actual documented scientific research (as opposed to the well researched theoretical) put into it I just have to get away from it.

Though many swear by it, I hear of so many people who switch their gliders to another diet other than the bml, and next thing you know their gliders who never had babies are now popping out babies. Others have more energy, others just generally seem happier.

Though people say they don't need variation and also don't care to, why is it that if you give them something new to try they get so excited over it?

Anyway, pricilla price's diet just seems to have a stronger foundation for it's structure, has a wider variety for the gliders, and of the 3 people I know who switched from bml to pricilla's, everyone has had positive feedback.

Please don't think I'm trying to bash bml, and don't go getting all fired up over me choosing another diet instead. I do think bml can be a great diet for gliders, and they should be perfectly healthy on it for the most part. I just feel from my personal nutritional knowledge and from all I've researched on the origins of the diets out there that priscilla's would be a better choice for my babies. If you feel otherwise, know it's mostly just opinions, cause until someone actually starts monitoring gliders on different diets, compares with scientific studies (within the comfort of the gliders of course), we really can't say for sure who's is better. The best we can do is research the foundations of diets, research a gliders nutritional needs, and see how well a particular diet can satisfy those needs. I wish you all luck in finding the "perfect" glider diet.

Take care,
AC, Nicole, Little Man, n the yet unnamed little girl

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#72555 - 12/20/05 01:40 AM Re: Diets? Rounding them out, suggested mods, etc? [Re: ]
Badgersmommy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1382
Loc: Kentucky
I would love to get my kids on Priscilla's diet too but can't figure out how to make it. Pepsi was on it when we got him and he was sent home with enough for a week or so, heck..it smelled and looked good to me! LOL
_________________________
Glider Kids - Badger and Bonnie, Pepsi and Grace, Victoria.. ahem..I mean ummm..Victor! and Isabella <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#72556 - 12/20/05 01:45 AM Re: Diets? Rounding them out, suggested mods, etc? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yea, our new female glider was on it when we got her 3 days ago, so we're giving her part priscilla's, part bml right now, until we get back home after the holidays and can take the time to switch fully to priscilla's.

The breeder we got her from was very knowledgable and has done extensive research with some of the top breeders in the US. I talked with him for a good 4 hours the day I got her, and after all he had to say and the people he told me who recommended priscilla's over bml, it just seemed so much more researched.

A perfect example is the vitamin complex isn't something designed for a reptile like rep-cal and herptivite which is the bml's recommended vitamin additions. Priscilla's uses a vitamin complex which has all the calcium they need, and also things they'd normally get in the wild like bee pollen and other nutrients that bml simply lacks in which genetically they're used to. I still don't know all the details of the diet, but a simple web search will give you all the details.

Take care,
us again

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#72557 - 12/20/05 02:17 AM Re: Diets? Rounding them out, suggested mods, etc? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


It's good to see that you're going with decisions based on your personal research! Best of luck, dweezel! No one here will bash you for your decision... or at least they better not! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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