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#72589 - 12/13/05 11:49 AM Mom/dad biting joey's face

Oh, my goodness. For the second time I just typed in my post and the board messed it up. Okay, let me try ONE MORE TIME!

Abridged version.

Clio and Caspian have 2 joeys- 2 weeks and 2 days old. The female is in perfect condition. The male is smaller-- I do not have a scale that weighs in grams, only ounces-- so it if helps, she is 7oz to his 6oz. More concerningly though, is the fact that he has bite marks on his face, around his nose. This is the first set of joeys for the pair, who are about a year and a half old. They have up to this point behaved perfectly, they are not aggressive or nervous about the babies or my handling them. Last night I removed the female for a little while to let the male have private nursing time, and he did nurse, so I felt better about that. But when I removed him this morning the marks-- which I admittedly had noticed before but I suppose I convinced myself it was nothing-- were darker and unavoidable. I feel bad- I have just been so busy with finals (I have 3 today!!!) and work that I was rushing around not paying as much attention as I should.

Any advice would be appreciated-- sorry I did not look up old posts on the subject first-- but I am nervous and rushed right now & the boards load -very- slowly for me. Here are some pics of the babies for comparison.


Male-- middle of last week-- no marks

Male-- this morning

Should I remove him? I assume I should supplement his food-- sorry if this seems disjointed. I just wanted to get this out there in hopes of getting some advice-- Ill be less rushed this evening when my finals are OVER.

#72590 - 12/13/05 12:12 PM Re: Mom/dad biting joey's face [Re: ]

It sounds like they are rejecting him. From the sounds of it you were able to supervise him and allow him to nurse. If they allow him to nurse under your supervision with no problems, you might want to keep him separate and just put him w/ mom regularly under supervision to nurse.

Have you seen them hurt him? I wonder under what circumstances it is happening. I would definately not leave him alone w/ them. If you can put htem in a pouch during the day and offer constant supervision it would be good for him. Certainly remove him at ANY sign of violence.

#72591 - 12/13/05 12:29 PM Re: Mom/dad biting joey's face [Re: ]

This worries me becuase a few months ago I lost a little joey with this same problem. With my little one I am sure it was her mothers (Jewel) milk supply being low. I tried to suppliment the joey but within 24 hours we lost her. I think it was due to infection. She seemed to go into covulsions and then died in our hands. It was a horrible thing to go thru. Hopefully the people on here with experience can help. I have learned alot from Monster and currently my Jewels has two joeys OOP 3 weeks and they seem to be doing well. I have been putting wambaroo milk on jewels food and she seems to have a good milk supply this time. I am attaching a pic of my little joey a few hours before she died. Your little guys nose isn't as bad as hers so hopefull he can be saved. Good Luck! my prayers are with your little one.

502693-Sick-girl.jpg (39 downloads)

#72592 - 12/13/05 01:03 PM Re: Mom/dad biting joey's face [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
If he were mine, I would pull him and hand raise him from this point. Those bite marks are enough indication to me that things are going really wrong. I would also get mom to the vet right away to check for any infections. If she has a pouch infection, it could be painful for her to nurse or it could be causeing her to not produce enough milk. Any indication of rejection towards the other joey, I would pull her too.
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance

The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

#72593 - 12/14/05 08:24 AM Re: Mom/dad biting joey's face [Re: ]

I had a mom do this to two joeys and I pulled them at two weeks and hand raised them.. both are fine as can be now and actually in a new home together in Florida with another GC member. I would advise if it does not get better to do the same.

#72594 - 12/14/05 10:10 AM Re: Mom/dad biting joey's face [Re: ]

At the first sign of the parents biting their joeys, pull them and handraise them. I have had one set of parents bite their two sets of joeys and all but one died. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crying.gif" alt="" /> We have the little girl who survived the bites and she is such a sweetie-pie.

I have a question, though. Would this little girl do the same thing to her future babies when she herself had been bitten by her mom while still a joey? Sort of like physical abuse being passed from generation to generation in humans? I hope not!


#72595 - 12/14/05 07:16 PM Re: Mom/dad biting joey's face [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
In the first place the rejection rate of joeys by first time moms is very high. Someone once posted it runs around 40% rejection rate. Not sure how accurate that percent is but I do know it is high.

There can be any number of reasons for the rejection. Not enough milk, pouch infection, something wrong with the joey that she can detect and you can't, or as mentioned an inexperienced new mom. You should pull the little male immediately and continue to keep him away from the parents. Watch closely for any indications of rejection toward the female. You may also have to pull her.

Scroll up and read the thread about hand feeding rejected joeys. We always use the baby BML and dilute it with a little apple juice. We use an eye dropper to feed the joeys and have had a lot of success with saving them. Be sure to give a little water after feeding and stimulate for a bm. Never feed the joey when it is cold.

You are going to enter into a sleepless nightmare for a couple of weeks trying to save this little one. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> There are several members on GC with experience in this area so don't hesitate to ask questions.
Charlie H
Rescue & Rehabilation

#72596 - 12/14/05 08:07 PM Re: Mom/dad biting joey's face [Re: ]
Badgersmommy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1382
Loc: Kentucky
Please give us an update...worried!
Glider Kids - Badger and Bonnie, Pepsi and Grace, Victoria.. ahem..I mean ummm..Victor! and Isabella <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

#72597 - 12/14/05 10:18 PM Re: Mom/dad biting joey's face [Re: ]

The little boy is doing fine, so far! I got some milk replacer in case I needed it, and I supplemented him and his sister a little last night to give mom a break. I did not pull him yet, and I don't want to unless I think it is truly necessary... I've been carrying the whole family around with me (thankfully I work in a small pet store where I can do that) thinking that if mom starts fussing or nipping at the joeys I can stop it. But there hasn't been a peep... she's been nursing them without complaint and both of them are very active and healthy (aside from the marks on the male's face).

My suspicion is that Clio's having trouble nursing because she's not EATING. This pair is notoriously picky and it is a constant battle finding things they will eat. I was proud of them lately because they had been eating all of their food at last-- I thought Clio's appetite had finally caught up due to the babies. But in the last few days they have once again been leaving most of their food untouched. I'm making a fresh batch of BML right now and I got some new fruits & things to try-- Clio will always eat mealworms, so she has been getting a lot of those.

The little boy is a real sweetie. He is very bright-eyed and playful for such a little dude. I will absolutely pull him from the parents if I see any further sign of trouble whatsoever, but I am hoping that's not the case. I've got the supplies to supplement them and I think I will keep doing that just to be on the safe side.

#72598 - 12/14/05 10:28 PM Re: Mom/dad biting joey's face [Re: ]

Is his face healing ok? Might wanna get something for it if it looks infected.

Also is the carry pouch big enough? U want to make sure that his face doesnt get scratched accidentally or a sore broken open from them just moving around. My 6 like to climb on one another and all around eachother trying to find the perfect sleep place sometimes. I can see how an accidental scratch could easily happen. Make sure theres enough room in that pouch.

What are you feeding them? (parents). Even though you didnt want to pull him yet, make sure he does eat and also you might just give him some milk anyway to make sure he has enough in his tummy. If he's full he wont want it anyway, but never hurts to try.

#72599 - 12/15/05 01:29 AM Re: Mom/dad biting joey's face [Re: ]

The carry pouch is more than big enough for them all. Its a size that I normally don't like to carry because it's a bit cumbersome, but it seems fine for them. I always keep larger carry pouches around since I have glider families in groups and I don't really like to split them up to carry.

One side of his face looks much better already. The other still looks bad, but it's a larger hurt area so that doesn't surprise me. The marks look scabbed over though, not fresh or wet, Im assuming that's a good thing.

The parents get BML, as I said. They're touchy eaters, constantly.


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