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#73379 - 12/19/05 02:41 PM How Much Food Should A Glider Have In 24 Hours?
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
It has long been thought that a glider should get 3 Tbs of food plus insects and treats every 24 hours. Where do these figures come from? How accurate are they?

We are always thinking in terms of what gliders like and should eat based on the likes and dislikes of the owner. To demonstrate how wrong comparing animals needs with humans is I have a little dog that weighs 10#. If I would give it to him he could eat a whole can of dog food. Using this as a basis, since I weigh 180# I should be able to eat 18 cans of dog food. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

I know there have been some studies made in Australia but was just wondering how their results compare with what we seem to accept. Just how close are we with the 3 Tbs amount we serve?
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#73380 - 12/19/05 02:54 PM Re: How Much Food Should A Glider Have In 24 Hours? [Re: ]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
[:"green"]Charlie,
An excellent question... Where do these figures come from? I feed my gliders about 3 Tbsp. of food (proteins, fruits & veggies) daily plus another 1 Tbsp. of Gliderade daily. This seems to be a pretty accurate amount as to what they will eat in a 12 hour waking period. Most of my gliders are at an average weight & have maintained their weights for a couple of years.
I do have two females that are on a diet right now and I have reduced their amount to about 2 Tbsp. + gliderade; they are gradually losing weight. So, I believe that the amount is fairly accurate for the average glider, but that is only based on trial and error here in my own home...
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#73381 - 12/19/05 03:47 PM Re: How Much Food Should A Glider Have In 24 Hours? [Re: ]
Badgersmommy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1382
Loc: Kentucky
Just 3 tbsp? LOL Yikes! I don't measure out my kids food but I KNOW I give them more than that. Of course, there is usually some left over. Badger is a big one, but he's not fat. Bonnie is getting more protein since they are expecting a baby. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/multi.gif" alt="" /> I've always gave them food until they are full and don't want anymore. I hang a double tray for Badger, 2 deep trays for Bonnie and an apple that has Badger's fruit in it. (all around the cage same places) Of course, they pick at eachother's food too...lol

I had Badger on a "diet" and nothing happened cept he got mad at me..literally! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> So I gave him back his normal stuff and he was happy again. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I don't believe anymore that he is overweight, he is "big boned" and just a big glider. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Glider Kids - Badger and Bonnie, Pepsi and Grace, Victoria.. ahem..I mean ummm..Victor! and Isabella <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#73382 - 12/19/05 03:52 PM Re: How Much Food Should A Glider Have In 24 Hours? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


i feed my sugar babies about that much a night and it seems to be a good estimate.They eat almost everything every night.

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#73383 - 12/20/05 01:44 AM Re: How Much Food Should A Glider Have In 24 Hours? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wow! That's really general, Charlie. 3 Tbs... really?

I feel it would highly depend on what's being eaten. The glider doesn't absorb everything it eats. Portions of exoskeleton, for instance, move right out and are found in the feces, and it's what has allowed scientists to identify and record exact insect species consumed by wild gliders. I'm sure the various captive diets offer differing amounts of absorbable nutritional material per serving. A glider will eat as much as it needs in sustenance, and I'd imagine depending on how nutrient-rich the food source is a glider will eat more or less than that 3 Tbs figure.

Also, Tablespoons are a measurement of volume, not mass, so depending on the density of the food, gliders would have to consume varying amounts to accomodate nutritional needs. 3 Tbs of pellets is different from 3 Tbs pellets soaked in juice.

So, I feel it depends on the food composition, and an amount requirement like that could not be fixed nor possibly quantified, unless we're talking about a specific diet (e.g. 3 tbs of BML + insects every 24 hours), because then you're working with fixed numbers. Even then, do we really know the exact nutritional requirements for gliders, or even a field of tolerable/acceptable nutrient amounts that could lead us to make such an estimate? 3 Tbs means very little really, and should not be stamped as the quota for our gliders, in my opinion.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#73384 - 12/20/05 02:04 AM Re: How Much Food Should A Glider Have In 24 Hours? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I bet, if someone did a test and had two healthy human subjects participate, where for one year Person A ate anything he wanted, while Person B consumed an equivalent VOLUME of cans of Ensure as Person A ate, you would end up with two people in different states of health by the conclusion of the test.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#73385 - 12/20/05 06:23 AM Re: How Much Food Should A Glider Have In 24 Hours? [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
I was thinking in terms of the BML and Darcy's diet when I mentioned the three Tbs. per glider. With most domestic animals we feed a certain amount of food which is usually based on volume. Dogs, cats, horses, goats etc. are usually given a set amount of food daily. If allowed to eat as much as they want they will usually over eat. What concerns me is are we over feeding our gliders. Or could we be allowing them to go hungry by giving them only a certain amount. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> We have large gliders, small gliders, fat gliders and skinny gliders. Is there a way to determine the amount of food they should be given based on weight and age?
I've got a feeling most of us use the supply and demand type feeding method. If the gliders demand more food we supply it! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#73386 - 12/20/05 10:01 PM Re: How Much Food Should A Glider Have In 24 Hours? [Re: ]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16734
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I've got a feeling most of us use the supply and demand type feeding method. If the gliders demand more food we supply it!


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> This is how I do it. If they eat everything one night the next night they get a little bit more, if they dont eat everything, the next night they get a little less. It has worked over the past two and half years, not to mention treats as well. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#73387 - 12/21/05 06:39 AM Re: How Much Food Should A Glider Have In 24 Hours? [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> That's the way Mary feeds. She thinks if there is no food left over the gliders haven't been given enough to eat! When we clean the bowls in the morning it is about 50-50 between what they have eaten and what is thrown away. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Oh well, at least my chickens look forward to getting the glider left overs so it is not a total waste. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#73388 - 12/22/05 02:38 PM Re: How Much Food Should A Glider Have In 24 Hours? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'll be honest- Ernie says to feed his diet with a tablespoon of fruit, 1 of veggies and some worms... we don't do worms (neither girl would eat them last attempt and I don't relish the idea).... I actually feed 1 tbs or slightly more (I tend to slightly overfill the cubes rather then risk being low in amount), and then 1 heaping tablespoon right now of fruit/veggies.. I dice a mixture up fine every few days.... then scoop it out... if they eat it all I start adding to the fruit and veggies.. but most of the time they are at the point where this seems like a good amount with some leftover... I also occasionally give small pieces of plain chicken as a treat.... or a yogurt drop or some applesauce... or... the list goes on...

they seem to be thriving and all gaining, buut none of our abies are fullgrown yet.. if they are and one seems to be getting heavy instead of just growing then I'll probably stop the gradual increase of food adn maybe even eventually cut back on what that glider/cage gets...

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#73389 - 12/29/05 06:41 AM Re: How Much Food Should A Glider Have In 24 Hours? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well, I don't know how to calculate a total diet mass requirement, but the mass of protein requirement sure can be calculated.

I had another look at Marsupial Nutrition and one thing I found interesting, and must've forgotten, was that Humes mentions that the protein requirement for adult captive marsupials are likely the same as in adult wild marsupials, and that total requirement for protein (in his text more specifically nitrogen, which are the primary building blocks of amino acids) is much less affected by additional requirements for free existence such as activity and thermoregulation (pg. 25, Humes). I have read on the boards a few times of people feeling the nutritional requirements of wild gliders differed significantly from captive gliders, so I thought this to be interesting, because with regards to protein requirement there is no difference, according to Humes.

Now, I don't know how this next part (which was what I originally sought in rereading Hume's publication) applies to this thread, but through a simple generic calculation one could determine how much protein (minimum) any marsupial requires on a daily basis per 750 grams of organic material (I don't know why they've chosen 750 g instead of 1000 g/1 kg, but I'm assuming it's because most of the marsupials don't consume 1 kg of food matter in a day so they had to choose a closer figure for easier math/visualization <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> ).

Anyway, I calculated the amount way back based on the equation (which is also mentioned in Hume's publication) that Pockets posted in the midst of a debate on protein requirements and Wombaroo, and Randy mentioned he'd take a look at it but nothing came out of it. I do remember that the protein requirement figure I calculated from the generic equation, when compared to the figure provided by past glider studies where the protein requirement amounts were determined through ratios of protein intake/protein in faecal measurements (the data of one such studies coming up in the next paragraph), were slightly lower, with the discrepancy lying in what scientists believed to be attributed to an adaptive factor in gliders specifically, where it is thought that gliders are capable of reabsorbing protein from their waste matter.

So, anyway, in Marsupial Nutrition a research study reference from Smith and Green 1987 states that a 150 g sugar glider requires 87 mg of protein daily per 750 g of digestible organic matter, and I do believe this to be a minimum figure, referring to biological maintenance (i.e. non growing, non lactating, non gravid glider).

Now, if 3 Tbs is approxiamtely equivalent to 45 grams (by North American measurement standards), then the math works out to 5.22 mg of protein per 3 Tbs of food. That appears to be a small amount, however...

There are several key things to note here. From Hume's figure (87 mg), the number only referred to absorbable protein specifically, and not total protein. In the past there have been several discussions on the matter and of bioavailability. The absorbability of protein is affected by several factors, including the essential amino acid list of the particular species, Petaurus breviceps, which we still don't know, or atleast the data of which we still haven't come across (ahem, Pockets where art thou?), so it's hard for us to make that calculation, really. Every species has a set list of essential amino acids, which are obtained from consumed food. These specific amino acids are those which the animal cannot biosynthesize itself, hence the food must provide it. All other amino acids are synthesized within the body (e.g, creatine is one created naturally in the human body and hence it's not one of the human essential amino acids).

According to Randy's BML nutritional breakdown from way back, the BML diet offers gliders approximately 1.5 grams of protein, which is many times the amount of what Humes indicates they require (considering the fact that 1.5 g is for a Tbs and not 750 g of the food, and assuming all of BML is digestible, which it isn't, so you'd have to decrease the dividend on the BML side of the equation), but again, Hume's figure refers to absorbable protein specifically and Randy's figure refers to total raw, available protein amount which accounts for the difference, though a rather big one in this case it seems. Gliders don't absorb all the protein they consume.

Also, many of our gliders breed year round, so additional protein would thus be required. Humes indicates that growth and reproduction are the only things that affect the protein requirement figure (i.e. 87 mg per 750g of organic, digestible matter, per day), which is also in direct conflict to the second paragraph of this post, but earlier the point referred to non-breeding animals.

So applying to this thread now, once we know the essential amino acid list of gliders (we humans have 8: isoleucine, leucine, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, threonine, tryptophan, and valine), we can then calculate from there an exact mass amount of protein component that gliders require based on what we know about the protein/amino acid make up of the various protein sources.

Anyway, just thought I'd add a few things to the discussion here...

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#73390 - 12/29/05 07:20 AM Re: How Much Food Should A Glider Have In 24 Hours? [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Humes indicates that growth and reproduction are the only things that affect the protein requirement figure

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Guess the good professor was assuming that all gliders have the same activity level. As gliders age their amount of activity diminishes so the protein requirements would seem to change also.

On another site they suggest that the captive glider diet should be 50% protein source. Even after breaking down the 50% protein source to absolute protein it would be a big difference from the amount Dr. Hume suggests. Some of the commercial glider pellets claim to have 40% 'crude protein'. This is also very deceptive.

I feel that Dr. Hume's formula is worthless when it comes to formulating a captive gliders diet because he has not taken into consideration all the variables. Then again neither have the formulators of the captive glider diets we now use. So we are still all in a guessing game.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#73391 - 12/29/05 07:44 AM Re: How Much Food Should A Glider Have In 24 Hours? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


A hypothetical example now of how useful the essential amino acid list of gliders would prove to be in calculating total mass protein component:

Let's assume the hypothetical essential amino acid list of gliders is as follows (though it's probably more extensive):

1)leucine
2)isoleucine
3)valine

Now, let's assume that 1 gram of BLAH-BLAH protein source contains (all really high numbers now):

1)5 mg of leucine per gram of BLAH-BLAH
2)3 mg og isoleucine per gram of BLAH-BLAH
3)0.8 mg of valine per gram of BLAH-BLAH

Now, from these figures you can calculate how much BLAH-BLAH gliders need daily:

0.087 g of absorbable protein / 750 g of food (from Hume's book)= (0.005 g + 0.003 g + 0.0008 g) of aborbable protein / 1 g of BLAH-BLAH food X n of BLAH-BLAH required to cover glider's protein needs

n = 13.18 mg of BLAH-BLAH required daily,

which translates to 10 grams of BLAH-BLAH or 0.4 Tbs of BLAH-BLAH required daily!

Now, you may notice that the math only factors in the absorption of essential amino acids. Gliders will also absorb non-essential amino acids, however the figure 87 mg represents a minimum figure, hence we're ultimately also solving for a minimum figure for protein needed, and non-essential amino acids are ruled out of the equation since they are uneeded amino acids.

I know Big_Ern once posted the amino acied makeup of the various pollen species awhile back. I can't seem to find it anywhere!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#73392 - 12/29/05 08:01 AM Re: How Much Food Should A Glider Have In 24 Hours? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

I feel that Dr. Hume's formula is worthless when it comes to formulating a captive gliders diet because he has not taken into consideration all the variables. Then again neither have the formulators of the captive glider diets we now use. So we are still all in a guessing game.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Ahah - at first I thought the same thing, but actually, Humes does cover the variables. We can even determine the protein requirement amount of females and cover both variables (age, breeding) according to a helpful graph. On page 26 of Hume's puiblication there's a graph which shows the amount of protein required/absorbed (measured as a ratio of protein abosrbed to total organic matter consumed) for any breeding female marsupial (and he even mentions that the figures are relatively the same for eautherian mammals, which is quite interesting, with the only difference lying in marsupials requiring less protein during lactation than eutherians) starting from the female's early growth stages. (I'm assuming the male's protein requirements are either similar or encompass the first half of the graph, i.e. anything before gestation)

The amount varies from 1.6 g of protein required (per 100g of organic digestible matter) during early growth to 0.8 g of protein during late growth to 0.2 g of protein during adult (normal maintenance referred to in the previous post) maintenance to 0.4 g during gestation period to 0.5 g during early lactation to 1.4 g at pouch evacuation 1.3 g during late lactation... Now, again, due to that discrepancy I was talking about in the previous post regarding gliders being specially able to reabsorb nitrogen/used protein from their wastes, I'm inclined to say the sugar glider figures are probably somewhat lower than these figures, because these figures apply to marsupials in general; and that's another thing I found interesting, was that ratios of protein requirements to food taken in don't vary much cross species and someone actually came up with a mathematical forumla for it, only factoring in the animal's body mass!. Actually, if you really wanted to, you could figure out the exact protein requirements at the various stages of a sugar glider's life using ratios and 87 mg as a reference, but I'll do that number crunching later on... *headaches* Can't remember if ratios have cummulative properties and it's just a matter of subtracting or not *bangs head against wall*...

[:"green"]The whole deal here is, many of the captive glider diets don't particularly cater much to the various stages of life with their specified feeding programs and regimens, and they seek to create one fixed/straight-forward/stationary diet recipe that does not shift in nutrient amounts, and is aimed at feeding all gliders at any age, whether breeding or non-breeding, a fixed amount of the food per night (i.e. 3 Tbs, 1 Tbs, half a cup, etc). I know some diets sort of do it, e.g. gravid/lactating females will consume more BML as needed and it's suggested you increase the amount of BML for mothers in the bowl. Anyway, in effect, depending on the diet, we may be giving the gliders an excess or too little an amount of protein than they require at the particular stage of life they may be in, the effects of which may or may not be a good thing for the gliders.

In the wild, I'm sure these things (protein requirements at various stages in life) are concurrent and in harmonious rhythm with the seasons and more specifically with the available flora and fauna at the times where they are most needed. It's the beauty of ecology. We've captivated an animal that is so closely tied to its ecological matrix, so finding simple and set solutions to things like nutrition is naturally not going to be an easy thing.
[/]

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#73393 - 12/29/05 08:56 AM Re: How Much Food Should A Glider Have In 24 Hours? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Actually, if you really wanted to you could figure out the exact protein requirements at the various stages of a sugar glider's life using ratios and 87 mg as a reference, but I'll do that number crunching later on... *headaches* Can't remember if ratios have cummulative properties and it's just a matter of subtracting or not *bangs head against wall*...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Actually, NO! If my memory doesn't fail me, the equation that Pockets provided only involved simple multiplication (and not things like adding/subtracting, exponents - thank God I'm not working with logarhythms and ln!) and involves direct proportion.

So a 150 g glider at adult stage (non-breeding) requires:

0.2g/100 g of food X 7.5 X n= 0.087 g (or 87 mg, as indicated by the studies in Hume's publication)
n = 5.8 (factor per 750 grams of food per day), so this is our factor; let's call it the n factor (for NUTRITION <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

So, now we simply multiple n with the other figures, and so:

For Early growth:

1.6 g/100 g of food per day X 7.5 X n
=0.016 g X 7.5 X (0.58)
= 0.696 g or 696 mg of protein per 750 g pf food required at early growth per day

For late growth:

(0.8 g /100 g of food per day) X 7.5 X (5.8)
=348 mg of protein per 750 g of food required per 750 g of food per day for late growth

We already know that at adult hood, normal protein maintenance requires 87 mg of protein per 750 g of food per day.

During gestation: 174 mg of protein required per 750 g of food per day

During early lactation: 217.5 mg protein required per 750 g of food per day

At pouch evacuation: 609 mg protein required per 750 g of food per day


During late lactation: 565.5 mg protein required per 750 g of food per day

Again, all these figures express absorbable protein and not total available protein, and are also minimum figures. They can also be used to calculate how much of a particular protein component the gliders need daily at the various stages of life if we only had the darned list of the sugar glider's essential amino acids (Pockets!!! Where are ya, dear?! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/muchlove.gif" alt="" /> ) Unfortunately, Hume's publication doesn't go that in depth into the protein biology for gliders.

Charlie, you're right about the many discrepancies with regards to people's claims for what they believe to be proper protien amounts that gliders should have. Part of the reason why is because there's a confusion and misuse of terms, perhaps. Another reason may involve not knowing how protein as a nutrient and organic substance works and functions in an animal's diet.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#73394 - 12/29/05 10:24 AM Re: How Much Food Should A Glider Have In 24 Hours? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Guess the good professor was assuming that all gliders have the same activity level. As gliders age their amount of activity diminishes so the protein requirements would seem to change also.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Oh, about that... As I mentioned earlier, Humes actually points out that activity level does not infact affect protein requirements to any significant degree. The exact statement is:

"Importantly, compared to energy, the total requirement for [protein] is much less affected by additional requirements for free existence such as activity and thermoregulation. Thus estimates of maintenance requirements of captive animals for [protein] are likely to be a realistic reflection of the needs of adult animals in the wild..."

(Btw, when he mentions "energy", he refers to daily required caloric intake.)

He then goes on to talk about how the only factors that greatly influence the required protein amounts for animals are growth and breeding.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#73395 - 12/29/05 10:56 AM Re: How Much Food Should A Glider Have In 24 Hours? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Im notsure How much I fed my gliders each night but it is probably close to 2 or 3 tablespoons per glider depending on what they ate the last night. They usually eat all of their food and none of them are overweight and they are completely healthy so I think it is a good amount.

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#73396 - 12/29/05 07:09 PM Re: How Much Food Should A Glider Have In 24 Hours? [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Mikey, some of his statements are a little hard for me to digest.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
He then goes on to talk about how the only factors that greatly influence the required protein amounts for animals are growth and breeding

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Guess according to Dr. Hume gliders requirements do not vary with activity as they do in humans such as professional athletes like weight lifters or runners.

It is still confusing to me how he can set up a formula to determine the amount of protein to feed a glider when the amino acid requirements are no known.

If the figures given for growth and maintenance based on 100 G of food fed then we are grossly overdosing our gliders with protein. All of his figures would figure to be less than a 2% protein diet. Most of the glider diets used by captive glider owners range from 14 to 20 percent. Closer to 16% but this is not determined to be adorable protein. Who knows what that is? The amount of usable protein from things like chicken, eggs, baby foods, insects, and vegetables would have to be calculated. Now if you can figure out these amounts for a sugar glider using Dr. Humes figures for the amount of absorbable protein based on 100Gs of food ingested we would have a base for formulating the correct amount of protein to put in a glider diet.

This is why I get a little upset with a lot of these studies. They take you to a certain point and leave you hanging. Then it is up to the individual to hopefully filter through all the other research to try to put the pieces together.

It also seems to me a rather loose statement to assume that a particular formula would apply to all marsupials. That is almost like assuming that one particular formula would apply to all mammals!

Sorry for sounding so pessimistic. Just my nature! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frostyangel.gif" alt="" />
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#73397 - 12/29/05 07:36 PM Re: How Much Food Should A Glider Have In 24 Hours? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Guess according to Dr. Hume gliders requirements do not vary with activity as they do in humans such as professional athletes like weight lifters or runners.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

He mentions it's insignificant, yes, that is correct. I believe any significant protein requirment variance falls under either breeding and growth, which may as well include muscle growth *I'm drinking a whey shake right now - yummy!*, but he's stating that growth as in growing from offspring to adult requires more protein. I'm not sure how many gliders would undergo the amount of activity over their normal limit over an extended amount of time, as humans undergo when body-building and doing proffessional sports. Also, who is to say that gliders in the wild do a significant amount more activity than our captive gliders. Sure, we can imagine that they're contantly dodging predators, foraging for food, etc, but who is to say our gliders don't do that in our homes? My gliders are always hyper crazy when we have bathroom, tent, and playtime and seem alert as if a predator can strike at any time. I'm also pretty sure wild gliders don't have access to the likes of a stealth wheel. Anyway, just restating what Humes is saying...

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

It is still confusing to me how he can set up a formula to determine the amount of protein to feed a glider when the amino acid requirements are no known.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Actually, it wasn't him that created the formula. Infact, Hume's whole publication is merely a restating and peicing together of data from studies of many zoologists. To get the figures, you don't necessarily need amino acid stats; there are other more direct ways of determining how much protein an animal absorbs. My understanding is there have been a compilation of studies where the amount of protein aborbed by various animals was measured by measuring the amount of protein going into the mouth and the amount leaving through the feces, and someone must've found that there was a mathematical trend for all animals/marsupials, and came up with a formula for protein requirment for animals which estimated such protein requirements. The formula is mentioned in Hume's book in a different form, but Pockets has the exact formula. The only factor is the body mass of the particular animal/marsupial. Any other factors, namely breeding and growth, are covered by the graph which I also overviewed earlier in the thread...

Also, I'm pretty sure the essential amino acid list of gliders IS known, most likely in Oz, and I bet Pockets has that information! She has everything! I'm pretty certain they've determined the essential amino acid list of nearly every animal in captive possession. If I'm not mistaken it simply requires a laboratory analysis and identification of particular amino acids which can and can't be synthesized within the particular animal species. Exact methodologies, I'm sure we can look up if we're curious...

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
If the figures given for growth and maintenance based on 100 G of food fed then we are grossly overdosing our gliders with protein.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Charlie, I tried to stress that all those seemingly small figures are only absorbable/usable protein figures and are bare minimum requirement values (the gliders will likely absorb more protein from their food than they actually require), not total provided/crude protein, which is why the figures seem small and the amount of protein we captivators provide is much higher. The gliders don't absorb all the protein they eat, so we have to provide over the amount of absorbable protein requirement figure... even then perhaps you're right, and we are over-supplimenting the gliders with protein... who knows... I wonder if the makers of the captive diets did the math from Hume's book or any integral protein research study for that matter, as has been performed in this thread... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> I'm thinking a few years of trial and error has gotten the diets to where they are today...

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Now if you can figure out these amounts for a sugar glider using Dr. Humes figures for the amount of absorbable protein based on 100Gs of food ingested we would have a base for formulating the correct amount of protein to put in a glider diet.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

That's exactly what the figures express, Charlie. Have a second look at it. It took me a good hour and a half to calculate them. LOL. If you want the numbers expressed per 100 g of food, simply divide the figures by 7.5 ; those numbers are absorbable protein requirements... all we need is the essential amino acid list, and we're on the road to finalizing the amounts of protein sources we give to our glider on a daily basis (for chicken breast, specific insects, pollen, chicken babyfood, nearly any protein source under the sun of which we know its amino acid makeup). Have a look at the hypothetical example for the math...

You're not pessimistic, Charlie. You're a critical thinker. You possess what they call in science a healthy amount of skepticism and impartiality. I'm already a fan of Humes so I'm biased! lol. Whatever the case, I can see why you are questioning the math. The figures seem a little shady and staggeringly surprising. But as people who don't ordinarily study animal protein figures as scientifically in depth as this, it's hard to know what is typical and atypical in terms of any calculated figures.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#73398 - 12/29/05 08:23 PM Re: How Much Food Should A Glider Have In 24 Hours? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


*additional edits made to above post*

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#73399 - 12/30/05 07:14 AM Re: How Much Food Should A Glider Have In 24 Hours? [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Yeah, Mikey some of the formulas do get a little involved for the layman. I remember reading once that the usable protein was calculated by the amount of nitrogen in the food. Not sure but I think maybe Hume repeated that formula in his book also. I know that the nitrogen is a basis for determining the amount of protein in livestock food.

For most glider owners I think the ratio/proportion would be the simplest form to use. If we knew how many grams of boiled chicken to feed per 100G of food or how many grams of other items we could get a better idea of how to feed our gliders. Then we could hedge a little on the plus side without going overboard. We would need a not less than/not more than type of chart. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> After we got all that figured out then we would start wondering about the calcium. Since protein effects the absorption of calcium should I supplement with more calcium since I am overfeeding with protein? If I supplement with more calcium to compensate for the protein should I add a little magnesium to the diet also? And don't forget the phosphorus. Too little is just as bad as too much!

The whole glider diet is as confusing as human diets. Maybe someone will come up with a pill that you can give to the glider each day that contains the perfect sugar glider diet. Just kidding! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evil.gif" alt="" />
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#73400 - 12/30/05 10:12 AM Re: How Much Food Should A Glider Have In 24 Hours? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yeah, it's certianly brain racking stuff, man! Delving into the vitamins and minerals is a whole new ballpark! I think my brain is having a hangover right now from yesterday... lol <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worried2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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