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#739776 - 02/23/09 11:13 AM Diets and liver issues
Karin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/06/01
Posts: 11583
Loc: Sycamore Illinois
I lost my sweet Deja yesterday morning. She went forever nite nite around 10am. I will post her story when I am ready, but it might be a while. She was 7 yrs. old. I have lost my original first 4 gliders all at 7 yrs. old, and every one of them (except no proof with Tira) had major liver issues at necropsy, yet all other organs were in excellent condition. Deja had a large tumor on her liver and her liver was failing. She had begun to SM this morning. Vu also began to SM at the end...he was trying to chew out his liver.

I am not, in no way shape or form blaming ANYTHING, but, we have to learn. These 4 babies were from BML parents, and were BML gliders for all of their years. For approx. 2yrs. I swayed from the actual diet and supplemented with boiled chicken probably 5 nights a week. ( I had not added the chicken as part of their diet for almost 5yrs. now though. ) The rest of the time, it was the BML diet with occasional fun treats. (so shoot me) Since the VA SGGA I had cut the Herptivite amount in half of the regular diet amount.

It is time we all admit liver issues are too high among BML fed glider's. Now, I am not sure we can correlate liver issues associated with other diets yet, as we don't have the years behind us, but it is so imperitive we keep watchful eye as these alternative diets and necropsies come up. I wish I was smart. I have no idea what the correlation might be regarding liver issues but the very basic's. I always promised myself, and my glider's not to vary their diets so we could have answers when the time came for them to leave me, and I kept my promise to myself. I do have answers now, and I cannot make up reasons for these answers. Three of my four (and I cannot say 4 because Tira is unknown) passed from liver i ssues. Why.

Liver issues are too high to keep denying. What is/or is there a common denominator? Is it the vitamins/too much/type? Is it the sugar? Honey?

Let's discuss, and please, this is NOT to diet bash!

Karin
_________________________
Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"

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#739780 - 02/23/09 11:21 AM Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Karin]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Karin - I know you don't want to hear it: I'm sorry for your loss. I'm not going to belabor that - as I know you don't need to hear that right now.

Thank you for posting this as a learning discussion. Is there some sort of database? Who has lost gliders to liver issues besides your 3? Were they all on BML also?

I'd like to have more information on the table here.
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#739781 - 02/23/09 11:27 AM Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ValkyrieMome]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
It would also be helpful to hear from folks who have lost gliders to liver disease who were fed other diets.

The common denominator may be a part of the diet not the entire diet - ie amount/type of vitamins or the protein (baby food chicken) source.

All the variables and common parts of the diet need to be considered to get a full picture.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#739783 - 02/23/09 11:30 AM Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ValkyrieMome]
meme05
Unregistered


Are you still feeding BML? I am new, and am also feeding BML. Now this scares me.

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#739790 - 02/23/09 11:50 AM Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ]
Karin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/06/01
Posts: 11583
Loc: Sycamore Illinois
Please do not be scared! BML has sustained gliders for many years and there is no perfect diet out there right now. Liver issues in glider's are high...now, we need to attempt to figure out why. We have to start somewhere. : ) I am using the BML example because these four lived (not nearly long enough in my book) and thrived for 7 years on the SAME diet. When we start changing diets and then want answers after passing, we can't get a true result because too many variables are involved.
This was my own personal way to get some answers...by never changing up their diets. Understand, when I first got my gliders there were VERY little diet choices at the time.

I do not have a data base I am referring to, although I believe Lucy was gathering data at one time, and others are in the beginning stages now doing the same. I can say liver issues are high, because I have read and observed threads for many years now and it consistently comes up over and over. Gotta start someplace.

Karin
_________________________
Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"

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#739791 - 02/23/09 11:52 AM Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Karin]
Karin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/06/01
Posts: 11583
Loc: Sycamore Illinois
At the moment, no, I am not feeding BML. The reason is, my younger gliders came to me from parents being fed a totally different diet, so again my mission is to see how these babies fare on the diet I am now feeding.

Karin
_________________________
Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"

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#739818 - 02/23/09 01:07 PM Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Karin]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
My understanding, with humans, so I have to assume with most animals too, is that liver failure is most often secondary to other "conditions". Since the liver is the "filter" that catches all the crud in the system, when something else is going on, such as infections etc.. that the liver is most often the first organ to fail and "die". This leads whatever it was to then effect other organs.

Vit A toxicity is a concern. When too much vit A is taken in, instead of passing through the body, it is stored in the liver. toxic levels can build. BML uses the herp vitamins because they have Beta Caradine instead of Vit A.

When Vit A is needed, the body converts the beta caradine to vit A and what ever is not needed, is past out through the waste, not stored by the body.

I believe too much Vit C can effect the liver much like aflatoxins.

There are just so many posibilities with "liver failure". The source of the "liver failure" needs to be identified. Liver tumors need to be biopsied to determine what type of tumor it is as well.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#739824 - 02/23/09 01:16 PM Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Dancing]
Karin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/06/01
Posts: 11583
Loc: Sycamore Illinois
Excellent post T. For the most part, I agree with you. In my particular case though, I choose not to believe that is what happened here. Three gliders, all the same age, all on the same diet for their lives, all suffered liver damage. In Deja's case, it was not a sudden liver compromise. Her liver had a large tumor growth. In Vu's case, much of his liver issues *could* be contributed to what was going on prior (the wound), but cannot be definitive as that being the sole reason. His liver was "loaded with nodules". And again, liver issues come up FAR TOO OFTEN for it to be explained away with *something else was going on*.

Karin
_________________________
Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"

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#739829 - 02/23/09 01:28 PM Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Karin]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Quote:
And again, liver issues come up FAR TOO OFTEN for it to be explained away with *something else was going on*.


I'm not disputing you Karin, just saying that "liver" issues are not normally THE original issue. Something caused the liver to fail. That's all I'm saying. We both are posting that what is causing the "liver failures" needs to determined.

Could it be ONE of the vitamins in the BML? Or a combo of two or three and how they interact? Are these same vitamins in the Wambaroo? The Ensure? How much in each and how do we determine which one/ones are causing the problem?

I also wonder...how common are liver issues in wild gliders? Wild gliders live on average 7 years. Have any studies (that you know of) have been done on this with our wild counterparts?

Is keeping them in our houses causing the problems? The air in most houses is often more polluted than the air outside. And most of us live with "canned air" (air conditioners/forced air heaters) Could that be causing the liver problems?

Quote:
His liver was "loaded with nodules".
Just what were these nodules?

Karin, I'm sorry for your losses. I know it hurts. I do want to thank you for putting this up for discussion.


Edited by Dancing (02/23/09 01:31 PM)
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#739831 - 02/23/09 01:33 PM Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Dancing]
Karin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/06/01
Posts: 11583
Loc: Sycamore Illinois
Love it...this is what we need to do, and keep doing until we get closer to answers.

In the wild, no, nothing, unfortunately. We know so very little. The protein in the wild, for example...is it animal protein? insect protein? vegetation proteins? Do different proteins break down differently in the body? The glider body? Questions upon questions.

(I have always admitted I am not very eloquent at getting my ideas across, so if someone can explain better, go for it!)

Karin
_________________________
Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"

Top
#739833 - 02/23/09 01:35 PM Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Karin]
Karin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/06/01
Posts: 11583
Loc: Sycamore Illinois
I gave the only report I had to Dr. T...it was not cancer though, even though at first the vet felt it was. I will have to go back and find out exact answers though...my memory fails me.

Karin
_________________________
Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"

Top
#739839 - 02/23/09 01:59 PM Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Karin]
silverwolf Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1732
Loc: Utah
Karen I also lost my glider to liver issues. She had a very large tumor growth that ultimately killed her. When they did the necropsy the tumor was not cancerous but its growth did eventually mean the end. She was only 4 years old when this happened. My problem is that I had switched diets I started on BML after about a year on this she would not eat it anymore. I then switched to Pracilla's diet she did well on that for about 2 years then she refused to eat that anymore no matter what I tried she had also started losing weight at this time and we could not determine why. I think this is when the tumor started to grow and it was uncomfortable. For the last year she was on HPW because I could get her to eat it and she started at least maintaining her weight. She never really gained the weight she lost back but didn't continue to lose until the very end. This tumor was one that they said was odd because they don't usually see it in gliders. But for the life of me I cannot remember what it was called. I would also like to see if we can determine why so many of our babies seem to have liver problems. The other thing that needs to be considered is could there be a genetic correlation here. Are our babies genetically prone to liver problems. Or is it something here that they lack maybe something to do with the eucalyptus that they get in the wild that they don't get here.

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#739850 - 02/23/09 02:42 PM Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: silverwolf]
joan248
Unregistered


Have you considered your water source? Both what they drank and what may be mixed with food, gliderade, etc. Well water needs to be checked often depending where you live.

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#739874 - 02/23/09 03:52 PM Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ]
gliderdad79 Offline
Owner

Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 15514
Loc: Long Island, NY
A concern for years has been iron levels in the bml. Many deaths over the years have been linked to high iron levels in the liver.

From what I have been told, even when BML first came out, the vets questioned why the iron levels were so high. It was said to offset other variables in the diet.

Years ago I switched away from BML and went to PML. It is the closest diet out there to the original leadbeaters diet created by Des Hackett who was the first to successfully breed sugar glider & Leadbeater’s possum in captivity.

When I first came around, everyone use to say the only reason bml was created was due to the ban of high protein cereal here in the states, so we needed an alternative at the time and it worked.

High protein wombaroo has been available to us for years now. It even says on the box, can be substituted for high protein cereal.

Now I am not saying everyone stop using bml, but as Karin is saying we need to learn more. Over the years I have seen people push very knowledgeable diet people away because they did not agree with this diet. All they were doing is trying to warn us of this years ago and to open up a discussion such as this.

This will be a great discussion, and I hope many will be open minded and we all learn. This is the only way we can improve the well-being of our gliders
_________________________
Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!

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#739881 - 02/23/09 04:00 PM Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: gliderdad79]
DelilahsMom
Unregistered


Ok guys, I was studying for a Med/Surg exam last night and came across something that may be a part of this liver problem in gliders, Flagyl. In humans, and I am sure in gliders too, it can cause hepatitis. Not bacterial or viral but, simply an inflammation in the liver.

I can provide resources if requested.


Edited by DelilahsMom (02/23/09 04:11 PM)

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#739891 - 02/23/09 04:16 PM Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ]
gliderdad79 Offline
Owner

Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 15514
Loc: Long Island, NY
Hepatitis is another thing to look at, iron overload has been found in

Vitamin C deficiency
Hepatitis



Edited by gliderdad79 (02/23/09 04:17 PM)
_________________________
Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!

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#739896 - 02/23/09 04:30 PM Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: gliderdad79]
Karin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/06/01
Posts: 11583
Loc: Sycamore Illinois
I have always used bottled spring water.

Vu's necropsy did show Acute Hepatitis. However, that I don't believe was due to diet (don't want to get off topic)...but the nodules on the liver are another story.

Karin
_________________________
Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"

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#739910 - 02/23/09 05:03 PM Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Karin]
Karin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/06/01
Posts: 11583
Loc: Sycamore Illinois
Eddie, if I remember correctly, all 3 diets studied at the time showed high iron levels. How high is too high? BML was the highest by quite a bit though.

Just stating findings.

Karin
_________________________
Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"

Top
#739963 - 02/23/09 06:24 PM Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Karin]
Sabarika Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1712
Loc: nKY
I'm going to watch this thread closely.. when I had gliders I fed them BML and planned on doing so when I adopted more. Depending on findings I may switch to another diet.. I always considered BML easiest because I didn't have to order ingredients online (would hate to run out and have to wait a week for it to ship). Please let us know what anyone finds!
_________________________
Sabarika
Photography
Cash :rtmo: cloud9 :rtmo: Xpense

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#740005 - 02/23/09 07:33 PM Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Sabarika]
gliderdad79 Offline
Owner

Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 15514
Loc: Long Island, NY
I really don't know that answer, but I do just looked it up and the daily iron intake for an infant 0-6 months old is 0.27 mg/day

I have the diet study on a local disk, let me find it.
_________________________
Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!

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#740013 - 02/23/09 07:46 PM Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: gliderdad79]
LabNGliderMom Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 01/04/09
Posts: 3753
Loc: Florida
Okay, iron levels and BML and all aside... what we need is a DATABASE of glider necropsies from ALL AREAS of the country to COMPARE them SIDE by SIDE... it could be the diet, it could be pollutants, it could be the water (after all, bottled water comes from the same source as all other water... so water in general could be it), it could be environmental, it could be geographic or it could even be genetic or immunological... so what we need more than ANYTHING is a DATABASE... the AKC has a registry for their pedigreed dogs... why don't we have one for our gliders? If they were registered, they could be tracked and we would know what area of the country they lived in, what their genetic background is like, what they were fed, when and where and why they passed on and THEN we could start to get SOME idea of what causes things like this... we simply don't know enough yet to draw any conclusions. Karin, I am SO sorry for your loss... I agree it is odd for all of them to have made it to the same age before crossing the rainbow bridge... if only we had a database and someone compiling all of this info, your information could be SO important to the cause!
_________________________
Julie
Hubby: George
Kids: Ayla & Michael
Grandsons: Trysten, Dayton, KJ & Nathyn
The Zoo: Midnight, Severe & Nala - Claude, Pixie, Tippy & Chili - Scout & Soluna, Theo & Deegie

http://hammockhavenpetsplus.com



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#740036 - 02/23/09 08:15 PM Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: LabNGliderMom]
Jackie_Chans_Mom Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/01/07
Posts: 2511
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: LabNGliderMom
what we need is a DATABASE of glider necropsies from ALL AREAS of the country to COMPARE them SIDE by SIDE... why don't we have one for our gliders? If they were registered, they could be tracked and if only we had a database and someone compiling all of this info, your information could be SO important to the cause!


WE DO!

The SUGAR group - though fairly new - has been actively collecting necropsy reports from all across the nation - as well as surveys from glider owners and data from wellness and sick glider visits. We encourage EVERYONE to send ANY AND ALL data to us any time they go to the vet.

We also encourage everyone to complete your initial survey and help us to compile data on what is "normal" and what is "abnormal" in gliders. EVERY survey and EVERY piece of data is very important.

We have been working VERY hard to get our necropsy survey completed and ready for use so that the NECROPSY EFFORT can begin reimbursing a portion of the cost for necropsies. We hope this will encourage ALL glider owners to have a necropsy. They SAVE LIVES.

Karin - and anyone reading this who has ANY written reports on gliders but has not sent them in - please send your reports to the SUGAR group. you can email them to sugargroup@hotmail.com or snail mail to

SUGAR group
c/o Val Betts
604 Deahl Street
Borger, TX 79007



Karin, I am so very sorry for your losses. Our Necropsy surveys will be delving into any diet links as well as other contributing factors. It is our hope that one day we can give ANSWERS to our many questions about gliders.
_________________________
~~ Val B ~~ 806-803-0318
Daily giving the abused, unloved, unwanted and neglected SOMETHING TO BELIEVE IN

PLEASE COMPLETE YOUR SUGAR GROUP SURVEYS!!!!!!!!!!!!

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#740078 - 02/23/09 09:30 PM Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
penniedad
Unregistered


i have my molly 3 yrs. old,,, she has liver problems , the vet. said there is nothing they can do ? my babydoll died of a huge tumor, molly is sicker,in my heart i know she will go to god soon, i just dont want her in pain, she never ate bml, the vet.asked me what she ate ,hpw, he said why so much honey in it ? to much, so i really wonder if anyone knows ? now i feed her chicken, fruits, veag,if shes leaves me, i will get a necropsie and send it

sorry for your losses, i know how much it hurts

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#740097 - 02/23/09 09:53 PM Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ]
KarenE Offline
Owner

Registered: 03/25/00
Posts: 41270
Loc: LittleRock, AR USA
Do you know where Molly came from? What diet her parents were on? How long did they live? Any information at all on them?
_________________________
Your Sugar Glider Resource Center
Sugar Glider Help



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#740144 - 02/23/09 11:00 PM Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Sabarika]
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 3398
Loc: Rock Falls, IL, USA
I have always looked at what people said about certain diets in the past when I moderated and bred gliders and yes I do remember people saying that the iron in the BML was way too high even compared to other diets. I do remember it being explained that it was to compensate for things such as the fruits and veggies being fed (If I am wrong please correct me as it has been a long time), but iron is not a water soluble vitamin from what I recall and too much can definitely cause toxicity. The liver processes everything that comes into the body so yes too much of any vitamin that is not water soluble can be a huge issue.

Vitamin C is a water soluble vitamin that leaves the body very fast. (I am speaking with humans right now, but think it would be the same here as well) I have to take Vitamin C to strengthen the walls of my veins and arteries since I have problems with my body not making enough collagen and my doctors say that Vitamin C helps produce collagen. Anyway they tell me to take my vitamin C as many times a day as possible as it tends to leave the body within a couple hours. So I am suppose to take my Vitamin C at least in 4 different doses throughout the day. I take the same amount as everyone I just break it up due to this reason. So I have no doubt that there is any way that too much vitamin C is not the problem. Lack of Vitamin C may be an issue.

I did find an article about the way a body processes protein can be an issue, but I am still working through that article so i am not going to go any further into this.

The one thing I continued to run into with humans is that too much sugar causes too much insulin in the body and that this can lead to many different cancers, but liver cancer was definitely one of them they were discussing a lot. There is a lot of sugar in all the diets to my knowledge. However we aren't discussing humans so I have to go down further to see how other animals that take in larger amounts of sugar in the wild process that sugar to see if that could be a problem as well.

I think some people are wondering if liver problems have been a big issue and if my memory is right didn't we discuss liver issues and gallbladder issues at the SGGA last year? My memory could be wrong, but I thougth I remembered this being discussed as an issue. I do know that often times things can cause a liver to go bad. Viral, Bacterial infections we dont' know about, too much of certain vitamins and not enough of others. So we do have to strongly consider that diet is a big issue with the liver and gallbladder problems out there. We also all know that gallstones are made out of calcium. This doesn't always mean that there is too much calcium in somones diet, but it could be the way the body is processing it. If gallstones are happening in a lot of gliders then maybe there is too much calcium in the sugar glider diet(s) out there as they may either not need as much as they do in the wild or their bodies are processing it differently for a reason.

We also have to consider that the sugar gliders we have here are no longer wild gliders. They are domesticated which can mean that their bodies don't need as much of certain foods, vitamins,etc.. as they do in the wild. Also they may not process these things the same as they do in the wild

Dogs and Cats have been domesticated for a very long time and there is still a lot of research being done on their diets, but for the most part they tend to live much longer in captivity on average than they do outside. There are cars, other predators, lack of the proper food maybe,etc...
Sugar gliders face things such as these in the wild in Australia I am sure. They have to worry about other predators, injury, lack of food due to forest fires and other reasons, lack of places to live due to those reasons, etc.., etc.., etc.... So I do believe that sugar gliders should live longer in captivity on an average than they do in the wild. Please do not tell me that I am saying they shouldn't be in the wild as I do not believe that at all. I am just referring to the ones in domestic situaions. If we do not have the diet right for them to be able to do that then we really need to continue researching it to find out what to do and what not to do.

I will say that this takes a village and any help people can do will be to the benefit of the sugar glider. Even if you are not 100% correct in your thoughts does not matter as long as you are willing to admit that you could be partly wrong or maybe just wrong all together. It doesn't hurt to make any attempt you can. If you feel you don't kno anything about this sort of stuff do not let that deter you as most of the people in the sugar glider world startd with just books, internet articles, etc.. to learn and go from there. An old dog can do new tricks!! I do not know a great deal about diets, but I am lucky enough to have at least taken some college coarses in anatomy and Physiology and nursing so at least when I am reading an article I can sometimes get the basis of what they are saying. If you don't understand something look up the meaning. I think we all owe it to our babies. smile

I do also want to add that we should all watch how many treats we give and what type of treats they are. A little bit of something fed rarely is not going to do too much harm depending on what it is. We also have to consider that even the safest treats need to be fed just on a treat basis. I think we can all agree with that.

I also know that there are times I feed a tad bit heavier on the fruits if my gliders love them, but if sugar is an issue we need to know that fruits break down similar to sugar and if sugar is an issue we need to look at then maybe backing off of that if we do it would be a good idea.

Ok I think this is the longest post I have made in a very long time, but since it was Deja and Vu I feel very strongly about researching this as much as I can and reading any information I can to learn as much as I can.


Edited by K & D Exotics (02/23/09 11:32 PM)
_________________________
Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics


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#740244 - 02/24/09 07:06 AM Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Critter Creations]
CharmedSuggies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 4273
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Is there a certain test I should get done on my babies to find out if they have any liver problems before symptoms occur?

Should I get this test done period?

I don't feed BML but HPW. Three of mine were on BML for alittle while before switching to HPW. The other three have been on HPW from the beginning and have not changed.
_________________________
Melissa & Aaron

Brat Pack
Roxy, Eddie, Lily :bb:

Crabby Crew
Brutus Theodore, Hugo Bug, Lulu :wfb: :leu:

Akeesha, Orion & Niko :rtmo:

SFS
Bella Belle mlove


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#740250 - 02/24/09 07:31 AM Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: CharmedSuggies]
gliderdad79 Offline
Owner

Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 15514
Loc: Long Island, NY
Blood work would be the way to at least test liver values, but drawing blood is basically impossible.

I am asking that no one jumps on a wagon and up and switch diets, please everyone read and study a diet before switching. That is not really what this post is about.

Danielle, excellent post!!! We do not know what is the best diet for our gliders. For all we know, certain diets may be right on while others are not. Just because someone who has been around for a long time says feed this, doesn't always mean you should.

Who knows, a diet that has been around for a while which we all thought was the best thing back than could be bad. Kinda like the FDA saying hey here is a new super drug to fix all, it has some side effects but its worth it. 5-10 years down the line line long term usage shows devastating results and further damage to the body and organs.

Is it possible, that a diet (and I am not speaking of any certain diet) can cause genetic issues? Yes!! Iron deficiency as well as Iron overload do have genetic components.

If that is true, it would suggest that we may be starting to see the long term affects from diets. Each generation can gradually be worse. Could this be why we are seeing gliders dying younger and younger, yes it could.

_________________________
Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!

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#740253 - 02/24/09 07:35 AM Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: CharmedSuggies]
BindiAndScrubbie Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 1837
Loc: Florida
Mine were on BML and stopped eating it...I since changed to HPW. But I had wondered before, if some gliders refuse BML, after eating it for a period of time, because they KNOW it is not giving their bodies what they need...or perhaps that it is giving their bodies too much of something. Just a thought that ran through me a time or two..

As far as HPW...could we not just subtract a tbls or two from the recipe? Or does this throw stuff off balance?
_________________________
Davie

:rtmo:SpoiledRottenSuggies.com

Think of all the beauty still left around you and be happy - Anne Frank

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#740255 - 02/24/09 07:40 AM Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: BindiAndScrubbie]
CharmedSuggies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 4273
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
That is a good question Davie on the HPW but most people are concerned about the 1 1/2 cups of honey. That is alot of honey. Does the HPW need that much honey?

How does all that honey help the gliders system? or does it?

Does the bee pollen have a play in it?
_________________________
Melissa & Aaron

Brat Pack
Roxy, Eddie, Lily :bb:

Crabby Crew
Brutus Theodore, Hugo Bug, Lulu :wfb: :leu:

Akeesha, Orion & Niko :rtmo:

SFS
Bella Belle mlove


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#740256 - 02/24/09 07:41 AM Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: CharmedSuggies]
TWilson
Unregistered


Here is the diet study you were referring to Eddie, I saved it awhile back after you posted it.....
http://www.glidercentral.net/images/4245-SugarGliderDietStudy.pdf

I have alot to say on this issue but will be back, got to get some work done. smile

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