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#74066 - 12/22/05 07:20 PM color of possible leu hets
Anonymous
Unregistered


Any thoughts?
I for one think that the color of a possible het is no indication. Others disagree. Anyone have any evidence for or against the color of a possible het being any indication?

From my understanding of genetics and the leucistic(pure) trait, leucisticism is an all or nothing thing and is only expressed homozygously. An animal that is heterozygous for the trait fundamentally wouldn't/shouldn't shown any color, right? I have looked at pics of 100% hets and they don't bear any common traits. They share the same variety that greys do from what I've seen.

I saw in another thread an explanation of traits how leucisticism and albinism work. It was something about how they are genetic traits that lie before the other color genes and therefore can "negate" any colors genes that appear farther down the "trail." Anyone?

Let's see if we can arrive at an informational consensus.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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#74067 - 12/22/05 08:22 PM Re: color of possible leu hets [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Can you post a link for reference by chance? I myself have no idea what you are refering to.
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#74068 - 12/22/05 09:14 PM Re: color of possible leu hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I don't see how color can be any indication of whether or not a glider is a leu het. I have several 100% leu hets. They are all different colors, including one cinnamon.

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#74069 - 12/23/05 12:09 AM Re: color of possible leu hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think it can but some gliders are DARK!!! Look at Jenn Benders 100% leu het male Blitzen and he is like BB dark but some joeys you can just be like BAM thats a leu het! Like my little boy nick from Jenn looks like his mom a 100% leu het and Nick is just the cutest glider lol!! He has great Champagne coloring!

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#74070 - 12/23/05 01:07 AM Re: color of possible leu hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


what you just said is a bit contradictory, eh? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
If 100% hets can be dark, almost black beauty even, then that would negate the possibility that lightness of color is any indication that a glider carries the leucistic gene.

I know that you believe that it is possible to spot a leu het by looking at it, but what evidence do you have to back up your theory? At this point it seems to be just a matter of divination/guessing.

I've had 4 possible het gliders all from a buttercream mother, all very light. Can we assume by virtue of the lightness theory that they carry the leucistic gene?

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#74071 - 12/23/05 01:20 AM Re: color of possible leu hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I saw in another thread an explanation of traits how leucisticism and albinism work. It was something about how they are genetic traits that lie before the other color genes and therefore can "negate" any colors genes that appear farther down the "trail."

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I stated that from my understanding of genetics that the melanocytes, ie the cells that produce color migrate from a particular area on the back as the animal developes inutero and that if this migration is interfered with that this is what causes albanism and leucistic. This can also be seen in white feet white tailed gliders. Below is a link for an article that supports my statments. Please read the section entitled Mutations that cause white spotting.

Coat Color Genetics

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#74072 - 12/23/05 01:22 AM Re: color of possible leu hets [Re: ]
petsugargliders Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/14/03
Posts: 1532
Loc: Andover, Ohio
Ok...I think I have heard the theory you are speaking of before by someone that has had a lot of experience breeding the leucistic lines. If I remember correctly...(and I probably don't LOL) The "coloring" there were speaking of were het to het pairings from a certain line.

(link)


Edited by petsugargliders (12/23/05 01:24 AM)
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Owned by sugar gliders for over 14 years
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#74073 - 12/23/05 03:20 AM Re: color of possible leu hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


That article is really interesting. Thanks for posting the link Chris. It's a bit complex, but I'm gonna save it and attempt to digest it better later. I'm taking genetics classes next year, I suppose it'll make more complete sense then, lol.

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#74074 - 12/23/05 06:55 AM Re: color of possible leu hets [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Ern, I think the theory of breeding for colors is just that 'theory'. Horse breeders have be frustrated for years trying to figure out how to make horses breed true for colors like Appaloosa, palomino, and the various paints. The gliders seem to be just as radical. Maybe in the future we will be able to use DNA testing to some way come up with true pairing for color breeding. At this time it seems to be a lot of educated guessing with hit and miss results.

Where I grew up there are a lot of fox squirrels and they are predominantly all the same color. But from time to time you will see one that is solid white, solid reddish, and even solid black. Never saw an actual albino though. Of course these were all wild bred and not in a controlled program.

I do wonder if we are not crossing sub species of gliders and coming up with some of the colors. Maybe the sub species have not been broken down as much as it should be. For instance the white tip is seen more in one area of Austalia than in other areas.
Charlie H
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#74075 - 12/23/05 07:08 PM Re: color of possible leu hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Subspecies can be defined as a group of animalís separate from another group of the same species that are still able to interbreed and produce viable offspring. This separation can be anatomical or geographical. By this time the amount of breeding that has been done with gliders there is little left of the pure subspecies in any glider. Every glider is a soup mix of these species. Regardless, subspecies interbreeding would only serve to introduce new allelic combinations. It is all genetic. Once these mechanisms are understood it will not matter if subspecies are interbred as long as the genetic makeup is known. There needs to be more work done with gliders. Tests on the color gliders and genetically defective would be the logical places to start. There are more articles like that one but they are a lot more complicated and I struggle just to understand their abstracts. I will try to dig up more reader friendly ones or give a simplified interpretation of the more complicated ones.

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#74076 - 12/24/05 12:22 PM Re: color of possible leu hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I know that you believe that it is possible to spot a leu het by looking at it, but what evidence do you have to back up your theory? At this point it seems to be just a matter of divination/guessing.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Yes I do beleive that you can tell by the color but other gliders you cant just some of the leu hets you can tell. Priscilla Price has some VERY dark leu hets and some VERY light leu hets and the color just varies and all you can do is buy poss leu hets that are dark and prove some people wrong. I beleive that you can tell by color with most of them but with some no you cant you just have to wait to see.

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#74077 - 12/25/05 02:46 AM Re: color of possible leu hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


ok, but what evidence do you have to support this theory?
In other words, why should anyone take this theory seriously when you've just presented obvious contradictions?

Why would it make any difference at all what line a leucistic possible het is from?
leucisticism is leucisticism, plain and simple.
Through lines you will see no color variations at all in a purely leucistic glider.
If it isn't all white with black eyes, it isn't a leu.

Why would variations of how the heterozygous condition is manifested in the offspring vary through different lineages?
In other words, how are the rules gonna change from family to family? This is a simple recessive trait for which there is no color variation in homozygous animals.

Also, the reasoning that a glider from a leu and a normal, and a glider from two hets will have offspring that display the supposed heterozygous coloring differently doesn't make any sense either. Why should a possible het (which is assumed to be a 100% het on basis of coloring)that ends up being a proven het have any special coloring versus a glider that is a sure het from the get-go?

c'mon Kris tell me! lol, you know I've been harassing you about this for awhile <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

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#74078 - 12/25/05 09:44 AM Re: color of possible leu hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Lol for some reason I knew you were going to say something like that!

Well there really is NO way to tell for SURE but when you look at a normal and a leu het you usualy can tell if it is the leu het or not. Like Sheila said in another post When looking into a bad of Leucistic hets and normals you can tell who is who and what is what or something along that line. Yes there are really dark leu hets but you will never know if a poss leu het is a leu het unless paired with a 100% leu het which could take up to two years to figure out if he or she is a leu het or pair the poss leu het to a leu (which many people can not do (Not enough money no USDA lic ect ect)) But all in all there is no true way to tell. Just with some you have a feeling they are a het and some you dont and usualy when the lighter ones come around you have the feeling that it is a leu het... Just my thoughts I could be totaly wrong the people to ask would be Sheila and Judie because they have been with leucistic lines the longest (of the ones who have stuck with the leu lines) besides a private breeder...

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#74079 - 12/25/05 12:07 PM Re: color of possible leu hets [Re: ]
petsugargliders Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/14/03
Posts: 1532
Loc: Andover, Ohio
I really don't think there is a "for sure" method of telling if a possible het is indeed a true leucistic het.

What I do know is I decided to hold Linus because his coloring is "different" from any of his siblings. His mother (cinnamon) has had several beautiful babies fathered by different gliders. ALL of her joeys have been dark coats, bold dark stripes, even when she was paired with a white face blonde. When Linus came out of pouch, not only was he red, but very light in color similar to a light glider coming from white faced lines. I wish I could explain it better, but I can't. I guess I could give the link to photos of her past babies so you can see for yourself. I am 98% sure he has the leucistic gene. I guess in time, we will know for sure. All in all, my decision was based purely on suspicion. I guess at this point in the game, that is all we can do. LOL just like coming up with strategies on winning the lottery <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What I do think is important is to start documenting "proven" hets that were once possible hets. Keeping photos them growing up, offspring and siblings, so we can come to some sort of conclusion if there really is a clue in SOME leucistic hets.

We do know that leucistic is a recessive gene to wild type. What if other colors like blonde or cinnamon work a little differently creating a color dilution in some offspring carrying the leucistic gene? Some breeders believe that a true champagne is a diluted leucistic gene? I know....too many questions? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Jennifer Chandler
Owned by sugar gliders for over 14 years
Pet Sugar Gliders

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#74080 - 12/25/05 01:33 PM Re: color of possible leu hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Partial dominance would be a way that would be an explanation IF it is true. However, I think this is more the random variation of the sugar glider than the affect of a single gene recessive. There is a lot of evidence that supports the conclusion that leucistic is a simple one gene recessive trait. As such it would not be possible to show any phenotypical traits if it is only heterozygous. There is a way to tell if a leucistic het is a het for sure; but that requires the sequencing of the gliders genome and determining the allele involved in the creation of the leucistic phenotype. This is extremly time consuming and prohibitivly expensive. For now only breeders experience and observations of geneologies can be used to support any conclusions on the mechanism of gene transfer of the leucistic phenotype.

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