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#755244 - 03/26/09 03:27 PM Discussion of Colored Breeding.
gliderdad79 Offline
Owner

Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 15514
Loc: Long Island, NY
To obtain a colored glider, which seems to be the big ticket glider nowadays, one must line breed which is a bit different but essentially the same as inbreeding. For years, we have watched the color breeders grow from a handful in the States to roughly a handful in almost every state. Webster online dictionary defines the term line breeding as the interbreeding of individuals within a particular line of descent usually to perpetuate desirable characters. They also define the word inbreeding as the interbreeding of closely related individuals especially to preserve and fix desirable characters of and to eliminate unfavorable characters from a stock.


My question and my concern is what is all of this line/inbreeding doing? Yes, it is producing some very unique color variations, but I am talking about a much different level. What else is it doing to the gliders and the population of gliders? There really is not much science or studies that have been completed or researched, but what I am going to try and achieve here is nothing more than thoughts, common sense, and references to medical issues that can be, and are, linked to genetic ties. It does not take a genealogist to read what is being discussed here and question like I am about to do.

I know this post will not sit well with many and will also make most of these breeders mad or angry with me. Remember this is me writing this as a member, not as an Admin/Owner. This is a question that should have been asked and made public long ago, and I can not in good conscience sit here and not bring this up, especially with the rapid growth of health issues especially in young gliders. I have heard and seen stories of breeders getting mad at others for giving away instead of selling, pairing a glider with one because of company rather than probability of producing colors. I have heard first hand about splitting bonded, proven pairs if they no longer produce or if the breeder wants to try to achieve a different combination. Normally, most would yell at a person for doing this, why do we keep an ear closed to them?

Over the years, it has been said that a diet is, and may be, the cause of most health problems. I can, and will, agree with that, but normally this in not seen till a glider is much further along in age. This is due to prolonged exposure of a bad diet. What I am talking about here are much younger gliders and why we are seeing such advanced health issues at such a young age? Again, this will not take a scientist or someone with a medical degree to stop, open their mind, and see what I am saying here is not far out of the box. Yes, I may be opening Pandora's box, but it has to be discussed for the good of the glider and for the future of the glider.

Now, let's start. Many health issues can be genetic, some that I will say here is common knowledge while others may be a surprise. Lets say glider A develops iron deficiency or iron overload and is a breeding color female. A person will never know about this unless tested, and if there are no signs, the glider is not tested. These two issues do cause liver issues, without a doubt. A quick google search with either one, followed by the word 'genetic' will reveal much reading on how there are genetic ties, meaning it can be passed to offspring. So glider A has joeys with this kidney problem, joey A has a greater chance of being predisposed with the same issues. Now factor in the fact that a colored glider is a mutation, what else is being mutated? Each descendant and generation of glider A runs more of the risk of being born with this issue and it gets magnified each time.

Is this the reason we are seeing gliders under the age of 12 months with major organ issues such as enlarged kidneys, tumorous kidneys, enlarged livers, and tumorous livers? Can this be one reason why the expected life span of a glider has drastically dropped? It sure can be. These gliders are being inbred to produce a more exotic glider. We don't even know enough about the current exotic glider, and now we are going to mutate it. Yes, a diet could have been the start to all of this, but can the line breeding that causes mutation be magnifying the problem? Can the great increase of people wanting to jump into being a color breeder also magnify why we are seeing many more cases? I ask you to ponder that.

Now I have heard of other health issues such as eye problems in young gliders. Most will pass them off and say it could be fatty deposits, but some could also be cataracts. Yup, some may not believe it but it is true. Cataracts also have genetic compounds and can be inherited. There are many causes of cataracts and another quick google search of cataract genetics and/or causes of cataracts will reveal a lot. Let's touch base on one cause of cataracts, such as they may also be due to metabolic disorders. Hmm, we have seen this one around for a long time. As we all know metabolic disorders can be passed down to offspring which leads to congenital cataracts. Now again let's take a mother who has a metabolic disorder and is a color one who is breeding. Let's mutate her traits and pass them down the line. What can be the end result a few generations down the line? A younger glider that has cataracts.

The list can go on and on and I hope we can continue to discuss this, because I, for one, am afraid to see what the future will hold for gliders if this pace continues.

So again I will ask what is inbreeding/line breeding doing? Besides the possibility of causing health issues, it is making some a lot of money and their name to be known. Why should this not be discussed openly and kept hushed in the dark? Why should one keep it quiet that a well known breeder or breeders are not practicing what they preach? I think if one has something to hide then one should not be held at any higher esteem than mill breeders. I think expectations should be the same all around, not only apply to those who don't keep their secrets so tight.

~~~~~~~~
Now, as an Admin/Owner, let me state that:

This post is not being started as a drama post and it will not turn into a drama post. This post is intended to question, raise awareness, as well as educate or promote more research into this topic. Any person or persons who feel they cannot discuss this topic as a healthy discussion or feels the need to try and have it closed will be in for a surprise when they refresh their page. They will be greeted with a date of when their suspension will be lifted.
_________________________
Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!

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#755257 - 03/26/09 03:45 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: gliderdad79]
Marz Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 708
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Excellent post Eddie.

I can only speak from the viewpoint of an outsider looking in though.

I often wonder how many gliders were actually brought into America in the first place (any chance of getting these stats even rough ones through Government customs records???) and if you work out how many gliders there were then and are now,it would give an indication of the gene pool from which all the gliders today are drawn from.

Getting specific colours is dragging the net even tighter genetically. There are always drawbacks with this sort of breeding and you might be indeed right that it is not simply a diet issue.

I'm late for work unfortunately or I would be keen to add more smile Maybe later. I am sure this thread will be filled with posts before I get to look again.

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#755261 - 03/26/09 03:47 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: gliderdad79]
suggiemom
Unregistered


Admittedly, I don't pay a lot of attention to most breeding issues and threads, but there has been a lot of concern over the issues listed above Eddie. There is something going on that we're having the liver issues, etc.

In my opinion it's not diet related because we use a variety of diets so it's not linked to any one in particular. Yes, it could be that we're not giving them something that they need or we're giving them too much of something they don't, etc., but I dunno.

I just think that any time people start messing around with mother nature, the animals pay the final price through genetic malformities, health issues, etc. I'm glad there are way smarter people than me who can keep track of all of this and I'm even more glad that I don't have to think that hard about my babies!!

I do love my wfb's and I love my little leu baby, but I love my grays just as much and I don't NEED to have more than that.

I don't know many breeders, but the few that I know personally, I know they do everything they can to make sure that they're taking whatever precautions to keep lines clean, etc. Unfortunately, not everyone cares enough to stop breeding certain gliders for THEIR benefit and worry too much about how it affects their bottom lines. I also cringe every time I see a "newbie" who has had gliders for two weeks pop up saying they are breeding. There is NO WAY they know all they need to know to jump into the mix when there are those with many years of experience who are still learning as they go along.

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#755262 - 03/26/09 03:51 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: Marz]
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 956
Loc: Homestead, FL
Eddie, though I am guilty of breeding for color I do agree that many diseases are linked to genetics. With that said, this isn't just happening with gliders of color it is happening with all gliders. I for one have chosen not to breed albino T- because of all the health issues associated with albinism. This problem I feel is bigger than just gliders of color, there has been extensive inbreeding by the mills, pet stores and uneducated owners compounded by a limited amount of gliders imported into the US originally. That is in the gene pool already. With any other animal, testing prior to introducing the animal into a breeding program is feasable. Due to the gliders size it is so much more difficult. If breeders don't breed what we have, our population will suffer even more. It's not that easy a fix I'm afraid.
_________________________
Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.

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#755271 - 03/26/09 04:04 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: Adri]
gliderdad79 Offline
Owner

Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 15514
Loc: Long Island, NY
Yes I will agree that this is also an issue with standard greys by mills inbreeding. But you bring up a great point and also supports a comment I made.

The community as a whole has stoned mills for inbreeding so as my comment above why is it ok for breeders who do the same to produce colors.

Zoo's have used line breeding only to try and repopulate endangered species. I can accept that, as it is being done so to preserve a species and it is being done by scientists.

What's being done with gliders now is not being done by scientists nor is it controlled. What I mean by that is any animal in a zoo that will be inbreed/line breed is tested and tested again to make sure there are no health issues before it is used. Not with Gliders


Edited by gliderdad79 (03/26/09 04:05 PM)
_________________________
Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!

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#755274 - 03/26/09 04:09 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: Adri]
oakley Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 2305
Loc: Florida, USA
Eddie,

I agree with you. I have very recently purchased my first colored pair (a mosaic leu het and a leu) and though I do intend to breed them for colored joeys, I also am aware of the possible dangers of "line breeding".

I believe this is why we are all so very careful with pedigrees. Like Marz said:

Quote:

I often wonder how many gliders were actually brought into America in the first place


Look at the common golden hamster. Nearly the ENTIRE population of hamsters in the US originated from a single female with twelve youngsters!

Now that we have colored gliders the question that needs to be asked is how responisbly are the breeders going to handle breeding for color? There is already enough talk out there about "breeding out" the lines. There is also a bit of controversy about breeding a leu to a leu and so on.
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#755276 - 03/26/09 04:11 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: Marz]
gliderdad79 Offline
Owner

Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 15514
Loc: Long Island, NY
Originally Posted By: Marz

I often wonder how many gliders were actually brought into America in the first place (any chance of getting these stats even rough ones through Government customs records???) and if you work out how many gliders there were then and are now,it would give an indication of the gene pool from which all the gliders today are drawn from.


I have often wondered about that too. sounds like a good project to get going. I will see what we can start, thank you.
_________________________
Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!

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#755283 - 03/26/09 04:22 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: gliderdad79]
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 956
Loc: Homestead, FL
To be completely fair though there was inbreeding in the begining of many of the color variations we have today, all of the breeders I have dealt with take great care in breeding out the lines as much as possible. I don't currently know of any breeder that is not trying to purify the lines actively, atleast not any that are members of our community. There are many unscrupulous breeders out there we will never be able to change.

That is why we so desperately need necropsies and a detailed databank, only then will we be able to track deficiencies and health issues in our exsisting lines and be able to determin which lines to pull from breeding programs. For example we have the sterility issue, why are so many still breeding these lines? I have never understood this and may become very unpopular for bringing this up. I'm sorry but sterile line gliders should be pulled from all breeding programs. This is a problem that spills over into all colors and lines, yet there are many still in active breeding programs.
_________________________
Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.

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#755289 - 03/26/09 04:25 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: gliderdad79]
shann0n
Unregistered


I'm in school for medical technology, and we're learning about genetics. I even learned how to do dna testing, which is pretty cool. One of the things that we learned is how traits are passed from one generation to the next. Negative effects caused by recessive genes are much more likely to show up when you have inbreeding, or line breeding or whatever you want to call it. You can end up with strange disorders that you probably otherwise would never see. The reason why is in order for a recessive gene to cause an effect, it has to come from both parents. When you line breed for a leu, you're basically causing this to happen. What you end up with is a glider who has two copies of the same leu gene. It also can end up with two copies of whatever other genes there are, and some of these genes might be harmful.
So even if the parents both are healthy, they could be secretly harboring a harmful mutation... then when you add these together you end up with two copies of the mutation, and that's when problems start.

I don't know much about sugar glider breeding or how they pick which gliders to pair up together... all I know is the closer related two individuals are, the more likely you are to end up with two copies of the same gene, which is usually bad.

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#755298 - 03/26/09 04:37 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: Adri]
LSardou Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 21060
Loc: Kansas
Originally Posted By: Adri
Eddie, though I am guilty of breeding for color I do agree that many diseases are linked to genetics. With that said, this isn't just happening with gliders of color it is happening with all gliders. I for one have chosen not to breed albino T- because of all the health issues associated with albinism. This problem I feel is bigger than just gliders of color, there has been extensive inbreeding by the mills, pet stores and uneducated owners compounded by a limited amount of gliders imported into the US originally. That is in the gene pool already. With any other animal, testing prior to introducing the animal into a breeding program is feasable. Due to the gliders size it is so much more difficult. If breeders don't breed what we have, our population will suffer even more. It's not that easy a fix I'm afraid.


What is more important. Having a low population of 'healthy gliders' or having a high population of 'sick gliders', who are the ones that are suffering. Breeders can get jobs to compensate for their loss of profit, but gliders can not get a new body to compensate for lacks thereof.

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#755299 - 03/26/09 04:39 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: Adri]
suggiemom
Unregistered


Unfortunately Adri, that isn't always the case. Just because breeders SAY they are not breeding leu to leu, etc., doesn't mean that's what they're actually doing.

Also, the sterile lines, there are people continuing to breed them, then there are other breeders that I know for a fact have neutered VERY expensive gliders so they could stay with their bonded mate and not muddy up the lines because there was a tiny doubt.

We need way more breeders like that! Money should NOT be an object if one is going to be breeding these animals to this extent. If someone can't afford to do it properly, they shouldn't be messing with it at all.

In the "beginning" there is always inbreeding or line breeding, but like Eddie has said, most of the time it is done by geneticists or scientists and it is monitored very closely. We don't have that luxury in the glider community. It seems to be more about who can come up with the next color mutation first sometimes. At least that's how it appears to me being on the outside and looking in.

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#755301 - 03/26/09 04:48 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: Adri]
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Adri
For example we have the sterility issue, why are so many still breeding these lines? I have never understood this and may become very unpopular for bringing this up. I'm sorry but sterile line gliders should be pulled from all breeding programs. This is a problem that spills over into all colors and lines, yet there are many still in active breeding programs.


My hubby and I didnt quite get this...please educate me. If they are sterile how are they breeding? is it the young that are sterile? just wanted clarification.

By the way...I have never been infavor of inbreeding in animals. If specific colors are desired the mates should come from totally different lines. I used to do this type of thing with mice and you can get specific colors and patterns by keeping track of the dominate and recessive genes of each animal and pairing ones that have similar d/r genes. I NEVER bred mice from the same lines and made sure of it by purchasing them from different shops that obtained THEIR stock from different breeders MILES apart so there were no relations. I was actually able to get specific patterns/colors/hairstyles within 4 generations or so just by keeping records of the genes passed on. my prettiest was a long silky haired cinnamon mouse with pink eyes. she was incredible! of course this is easier with mice as they do mature and breed faster than gliders. But anything good is worth waiting for.
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#755304 - 03/26/09 04:52 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: LSardou]
gliderdad79 Offline
Owner

Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 15514
Loc: Long Island, NY
Originally Posted By: LSardou
Originally Posted By: Adri
Eddie, though I am guilty of breeding for color I do agree that many diseases are linked to genetics. With that said, this isn't just happening with gliders of color it is happening with all gliders. I for one have chosen not to breed albino T- because of all the health issues associated with albinism. This problem I feel is bigger than just gliders of color, there has been extensive inbreeding by the mills, pet stores and uneducated owners compounded by a limited amount of gliders imported into the US originally. That is in the gene pool already. With any other animal, testing prior to introducing the animal into a breeding program is feasable. Due to the gliders size it is so much more difficult. If breeders don't breed what we have, our population will suffer even more. It's not that easy a fix I'm afraid.


What is more important. Having a low population of 'healthy gliders' or having a high population of 'sick gliders', who are the ones that are suffering. Breeders can get jobs to compensate for their loss of profit, but gliders can not get a new body to compensate for lacks thereof.


clap

There is no justification for this. The glider population is huge, just look at the increase of rescues over the years.
_________________________
Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!

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#755305 - 03/26/09 04:52 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: LSardou]
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 956
Loc: Homestead, FL
Originally Posted By: LSardou
Originally Posted By: Adri
Eddie, though I am guilty of breeding for color I do agree that many diseases are linked to genetics. With that said, this isn't just happening with gliders of color it is happening with all gliders. I for one have chosen not to breed albino T- because of all the health issues associated with albinism. This problem I feel is bigger than just gliders of color, there has been extensive inbreeding by the mills, pet stores and uneducated owners compounded by a limited amount of gliders imported into the US originally. That is in the gene pool already. With any other animal, testing prior to introducing the animal into a breeding program is feasable. Due to the gliders size it is so much more difficult. If breeders don't breed what we have, our population will suffer even more. It's not that easy a fix I'm afraid.


What is more important. Having a low population of 'healthy gliders' or having a high population of 'sick gliders', who are the ones that are suffering. Breeders can get jobs to compensate for their loss of profit, but gliders can not get a new body to compensate for lacks thereof.


I agree totally Linda, my statement is reffering to breeding as a whole and not only greared to pricey gliders of color. When I said breeding what we have I meant the current gene pool as a whole is contaminated, how can we determine what lines to continue breeding and which ones should not, is what we need to get to.
_________________________
Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.

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#755306 - 03/26/09 04:54 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: JillMarie]
gliderdad79 Offline
Owner

Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 15514
Loc: Long Island, NY
Originally Posted By: JillMarie

I was actually able to get specific patterns/colors/hairstyles within 4 generations or so just by keeping records of the genes passed on. my prettiest was a long silky haired cinnamon mouse with pink eyes. she was incredible! of course this is easier with mice as they do mature and breed faster than gliders. But anything good is worth waiting for.


From most of the studies I have read lately, most state that inbreed/line breed animals should not be breed further than the 4th generation.


Edited by gliderdad79 (03/26/09 04:55 PM)
_________________________
Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!

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#755307 - 03/26/09 04:54 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: JillMarie]
TheGliderPlayroom Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 02/24/04
Posts: 1594
Loc: Youngstown, Ohio
Originally Posted By: JillMarie
I NEVER bred mice from the same lines and made sure of it by purchasing them from different shops that obtained THEIR stock from different breeders MILES apart so there were no relations.


There is someone here on GC that bought a male and a female from different breeders in different states, and found out they were actually brother and sister. IMO unless you have clear lines recorded, you cannot be positive you are not inbreeding.

Second cousins or farther apart is considered genetically unrelated. IMO as long as you have your pairs at least that far apart, it's fine.
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The Glider Playroom
PSG/Sugar Glider Database
Vice-President of the NE.O.B.B.C.

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#755312 - 03/26/09 05:01 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: JillMarie]
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 956
Loc: Homestead, FL
Originally Posted By: JillMarie
Originally Posted By: Adri
For example we have the sterility issue, why are so many still breeding these lines? I have never understood this and may become very unpopular for bringing this up. I'm sorry but sterile line gliders should be pulled from all breeding programs. This is a problem that spills over into all colors and lines, yet there are many still in active breeding programs.


My hubby and I didnt quite get this...please educate me. If they are sterile how are they breeding? is it the young that are sterile? just wanted clarification.



To answer your question in the lines that carry sterility the females are usually able to produce, it is the males that are affected. So when you take a female from a sterile line and breed it you are introducing sterility to that line.
_________________________
Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.

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#755339 - 03/26/09 05:38 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: gliderdad79]
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey
This is such a facinating discussion! love this kind of stuff

Eddie...I didnt inbreed. I made sure none of the animals I bred were related and NEVER had genetic issues. I entered that info just to approach the subject about glider breeding from a different standpoint...that perhaps color breeding is ok if done responsibly. That it is necessary to keep good records. I see inbreeding all the time with guinea pigs at fairs and such and it really bothers me...too gross...
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#755352 - 03/26/09 05:49 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: LSardou]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
First, some of us Color breeders do not always make money. I can attest to that as my total earnings for 2008 after all of my deductions with food bills, vet Fees which almost everyone of those were Neuterrs, computer bills, phone bills, interrnet connection to comcast, pouches, shipping crates, cleaning supplies, monies for paid help, and two or three purchases for sugar gliders, inspection fees, USDA relicensing fees, website fees along with computer fees to get rid of garbage that it seems to be attracted to it, Taxes, along with other expenses I have left out due to lack of memory... my profit for 2008 AFTER deductions..... was $1,102. Do not feel like I made any money raising colored gliders. If I had to feed myself with what I made... I would have starved. roflmao

Now, as to the topic of Inbreeding and creating Health Issues... sure it is possible. However, with good foundation lineages to start with... where no problems were noted, the Leucistic and Wf Blondes seem to be very sound as to Health.

And yes, Foundation Lines... were inbred in the very beginning. This is true of any new color or breed of animal. This is a must in the very beginning for any breeing program. With carefull attention to pedigrees and also by communicating with selective known breeders I have yet to see a problem. And I myself have been doing colors for what... over seven years or more? Now grant it... I do not breed siblings nor do I do parent to sibling breedings. But I have done first cousins in the beginning phase and then have branched out to second cousins.

As to how many gliders have I lost in my 12 years plus as a breeder... maybe five or six. Out of those numbers... only one was a WF Blonde, one mosaic from the producing line and never a Leucrestic. And I own fifteen pairs of gliders.

I still owm most of my orig wf blondes with a couple of them being close to six and seven years oop. Sesmie who is one of the Foundation Whites is almost six and her mate ShyBaby(Neutered now)is close to five years old. Even though ShyBaby was a result of a brother and sister breeding by a Candian breeder... this pair is Very Healthy. I own five generations from this one line of glider and have never have I had issues with this Foundation Pair or their offspring. And they have producved a lot of babies, grandbabies, great grandbabies, great great grandbabies and great great great grandbabies if not more.

It is more likely possible to introduce a possible genetic defect into a proven sound linebred animal whos lineage is clean by introducing an outside animal to it.

And I agree... continous inbreeding can increase chances of genetic problems. But so can breeding a non related animal to a proven clean line.

And keep in mind, we are breeding for color and not messing with trying to conform a physical standard by changing the animals body type.

So, to stay on top of things when breeding... breeders need to communicate to each other as to any current problems if any with lineages.

One last note, people need to research Known breeders, the lineages of their gliders and as to how to effectively do proper pairings.

As to the Sterile line of Mosaics.... it is a Sex Linked Trait. It is Not to be breed to the Leucistic or Creino lines. Reasoning beind this is... the Leus and Creminos are only produced by both gliders being recessive gene carriers for their colors and it would absoulutely Ruin their clean lineages as to being able to reproduce. It would be almost inpossible to breed a sex linked trait out of a recessive trait animal.

The Rules of breeding for a "Well Known breeder" are: 1) a Profound love for the Species, 2) Health, 3) Dispostion and then 4)color. Always in that order. If breeders cannot contribute to the overall qualities and soundness of the animal they own or produce... then some breeders should not be breeding period. thumb

Judie Hausmann


_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#755542 - 03/26/09 09:45 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: Judie]
gliderdad79 Offline
Owner

Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 15514
Loc: Long Island, NY
So you are saying as long as two gliders are healthy and are inbreed it is ok? Most everything I have read does not support that.

Any time you inbreed there is a greater chance of a defect, even if lines are clean. Yes, you may go without issues for years. But what happens if their is defect, deficiency, parasite that is not seen or known. Inbreeding can and will continue mutating it. Could we possibly start seeing a new defect, deficiency, or parasite. Can we now start to see a super or unheard of one now in the species.

I know breeders are breeding for colors and not mess with physical standards. But by inbreeding you can and will be changing physical standards. Of course no one intends on that, but the cold hard truth is its a factor and it a by product so to speak to inbreeding.

If you have two mutated parents with issues(known or not) and now you take those two genes and mutate it again the results can be catastrophic. I really feel we are on the brink to seeing not only more frequent health issues, but some that we have never or would never expect in gliders.

I will never understand why anyone would chose to risk these results. Why would anyone wish to risk introducing health issues. Most of the times the risk is for the money. For the life of me I will never understand why a glider is being sold for $500+.

Yes I have heard the excuse, prices are that high to protect the lines and to be sure that someone who spends that much will be a good owner. That is a reasonable answer to charge $6000 for a glider? I mean come on. Even in our everyday world products cost more than another ex: computers. Well lets look at that for a second. Brand A is $300 more than brand B, why you may ask. Brand A uses better parts, better technology. That cost is disbursed by cost of product. You have to pay for the material, development, salaries, etc.

This I can understand, but does one actually physically get involved with the process of breeding a glider? Basically all you have to do is feed and pay for vets just like the rest of us.

Unfortunately, I have seen and heard issues that happen in the "Well known breeders" circle that are kept hushed. I am not speaking about all or any particular ones, but most cannot and will not tell the complete truth, just like a politician. These are the same who are genetically mutating genes that can and will cause medical issues, and for what?

It does not take a rocket scientist to look at the big picture. We are seeing more and more health issues that can be traced to inbreeding, and these issues are starting to appear earlier and earlier in a gliders life. Case and point, the glider that has a huge tumour in it's liver discovered at the age of one.

Why is reward greater than the risk? Why is it not acceptable for a mill breeder to do this, but a color breeder is put on a pedestal? Essential both parties are risking producing the same defects, same health issues but one is on a much larger scale.

I have had this problem for a long time and it is time to discuss it. My only regret is it wasn't done sooner, before it got out of hand. Why does inbreeding for a specific color outweigh the massive health issues that can be a result of inbreeding.

I am tired of seeing more frequent deaths and health issues not only in gliders but babies and young ones. Breeding for colors truly only has one motive, and that is to make money. We more than likely have more mutated glider genes out there than normal ones. Can this all be breeding out the true clean blood lines left in the U.S.

_________________________
Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!

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#755554 - 03/26/09 10:17 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: gliderdad79]
AmyLynn
Unregistered


Very good point Eddie! I can not see spending $3000-$4000+ for a glider. I do not know alot about colored breeding but since I joined GC there has been so many more colored breeders.


Edited by AmyLynn (03/26/09 10:21 PM)

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#755555 - 03/26/09 10:18 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: gliderdad79]
KristopherDeRose
Unregistered


Eddie I know where you are coming from.. But I have to say that I am one that has been trying to out breed the lines I have.. yes I do have some pricey gliders and I do breed for colors.. But mine that are recessive gene.

ahh I will post more Kermit does not like the noise of typing lol and he is trying to drink my Pepsi!!!

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#755561 - 03/26/09 10:31 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: gliderdad79]
Lynsie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 8329
Loc: Quincy, IL 62305
Originally Posted By: gliderdad79

So again I will ask what is inbreeding/line breeding doing? Besides the possibility of causing health issues, it is making some a lot of money and their name to be known. Why should this not be discussed openly and kept hushed in the dark? Why should one keep it quiet that a well known breeder or breeders are not practicing what they preach? I think if one has something to hide then one should not be held at any higher esteem than mill breeders. I think expectations should be the same all around, not only apply to those who don't keep their secrets so tight.



Eddie, I just wanted to point out that these topics have been discussed before and breeders who do not practice safe breeding have been outed, but just not on this board because of the no drama rule, since most of these topics get heated.
_________________________
Lynsie,
LuckyYou Gliders


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#755562 - 03/26/09 10:33 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: ]
KristopherDeRose
Unregistered


Okay sorry as to line breeding. I feel it is needed... If noone ever line bred we would never have dogs cats anything.... and I try to keep them at least 2nd cousins in my albino line some times I have to do 1 cousin once removed but I tend to try to breed out my hets and my albino that I have that I bought.
With other colors people are trying to breed out the lines. but alot of newbies dont care and put what ever they want together and then breed them and dont think it is wrong. the members that have been around and breeding the longest are trying to do the right thing and out breed the lines but its hard when all new people are just putting gliders together with out the out look of the lineage or anything. I for one would love to see pure lines of EVERY THING... so people can pair their gliders more easily but that would have to have line breeding of course but it would help alot... With albinos we have to out breed the albinos and then get low precent hets and try them back with others out of the albino.... Stacie jolley actually just proved a 12.5% albino het out he was the females great great great great nephew and it proved image the shock that would be...
But there is good to line breeding and the more HIGH RISK factor is the inbreeding some people idiotically do

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#755565 - 03/26/09 10:37 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: gliderdad79]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16758
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
VERY Interesting read here....keep it going.

I would like to throw another thought in there however.

While everyone is thinking of the inbreeding/line breeding that may be causing changes in appearance and genes in gliders, we must also remember that this can and probably was done with breeding gliders from different areas...ie: Indonesian gliders to New Guniea gliders to Australian gliders, etc. Yes, they may all be *sugar gliders* however, if you look them up, each have a difference, although small, *appearance* to them.

NOT trying to say this discussion is not on track with things, but we must take ALL things into consideration when thinking overall health issues in animals.

The first gliders brought over here, I am sure, were most likely grey...I am also sure there were several inbred then and no lineages were ever kept. So how would we be for certain?
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#755567 - 03/26/09 10:40 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: Lynsie]
KristopherDeRose
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Lynsie
Originally Posted By: gliderdad79

So again I will ask what is inbreeding/line breeding doing? Besides the possibility of causing health issues, it is making some a lot of money and their name to be known. Why should this not be discussed openly and kept hushed in the dark? Why should one keep it quiet that a well known breeder or breeders are not practicing what they preach? I think if one has something to hide then one should not be held at any higher esteem than mill breeders. I think expectations should be the same all around, not only apply to those who don't keep their secrets so tight.



Eddie, I just wanted to point out that these topics have been discussed before and breeders who do not practice safe breeding have been outed, but just not on this board because of the no drama rule, since most of these topics get heated.


the only health problems I have seen are from the ones that have been inbred and noone inbreeds their gliders on purpose sometimes people leave female joeys in until 4-6 months and the dad gets them preggo.. noone is like "Oh I am going to put this male with his daughter to get this color" Only one person has done that and it was Jason Thurber with his albino line and leu line... He did that because he is a snake breeder and it is okay in the snake world and the two different animal worlds are so different as any animal community is different as I am part of many different animal communities and have many friends that breed many different animals..

For wallabies they do not even have lineage as most people that breed have big mobs of them consisting of many males and females and they might also have wallaroos and kangaroos in there(as they will not cross breed) but they never know who the father is. which I personally would like to see more careful breedings in that community and get well written out pedigrees I am trying to talk to one of my friends in to doing so, so he can start it all out.

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#755575 - 03/26/09 10:51 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: gliderdad79]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
My goodness Eddie. Your defimation of inbreeding is not what I call inbreeding. And I never said... inbreeding was ok to do all the time. Only when establishing a new color that is RARE is it necessary.

While inbreeding and linebreeding may be one in the same... they are not. InBreeding is a very severe form of breeding for a particular trait and is quicker to achieve one's goal but at the expense of the animal. On the other hand... linebreeding one breedes further out. While line breeding will take a breeder more time to achieve a certain specific trait it is a much safer way to breed for a trait.

Now... I am lost as to what the problem you are trying to address Eddie. Is it my breeding practicedes or what? since you appear to be so upset?

I do not get into issues about Mega breeders. And I sure do not go around and gossip on other boards nor do I do much gossiping with others here on the Glider Central. And it certainly is not because I cammot talk as I do love to talk to people. But on the other hand I try to avoid drama with certain groups and also I really do not have the time for gossip of which most has to be taken with a grain of salt anyway. So, please inlighten me as I am having a difficult time here understanding the point of this thread.

As to necropsys... yes, more and more of them are being done now. Why? Because people are spending more for their gliders as it is no longer a cheap pet that can be easily replaced. Here on Glider Central we try to educate people on the importance of having neucropys done so it benefits the glider coummimity as a whole. Prolem I still see with the reports though... has not really changed since the days of me just raising little gray gliders. Do I think more vets are educated about sugar gliders than they were 12 years ago? No. However a few do learn from good breeders and also from a small amount from the internet. I still find lab reports still inconclusive.

I think instead of beating around the bush with me.... why do you not just call me and we can continue this discussion. Typing this out... is like writing a lengthy letter of which I can reply to by talking rather than this keyboard on my laptop.

My phone number is easily accessable as it is on my website. Shoot... I will just post it: 816-847-6941

Judie Hausmann
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#755583 - 03/26/09 11:00 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: Judie]
gliderdad79 Offline
Owner

Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 15514
Loc: Long Island, NY
By all means Judie, I am not talking about you nor my posts directed at you or any breeder in particular.
_________________________
Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!

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#755588 - 03/26/09 11:11 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: Judie]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
PS: I have spent many many thousands of dollars on my tiny Cremino line of gliders (3 pairs to be exact and over $7,000 for my first pair of 100% Cremino Hets and that was 3 years ago). Have I sold a Cremino yet? No, I have not. I have sold 2 66%cremino hets at an average price of $900 each and I done a couple of trades with Priscilla. The other Het babies were sold as Normals with one being a male was altered. As to the price on the Creminos, it will come down when they become more available and filter down to the average consumer. As to Expensive Mosaics... I only own one and it took me three years of breeding to produce Picasso who is from a producing line of mosaics. I like most people... could not afford to purchase a White Platinum Mosaic and a breeding one at that.

Remember, us breeders do not get our beautiful sugar gliders at discounted prices. We pay full price just like anyone else and possibly more or spend our time trying to breed for them.
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#755650 - 03/27/09 03:20 AM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: Judie]
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey
I want to say that I agree with eddie on many points. ESPECIALLY about the pricing!!! you people are WAY out of line selling them for that kind of money!!!
Now about the mice...to clafify when I did my own color breeding (with mice) when I found a mouse with a color variation I liked I would mate her to a "standard" mouse to determine if the variation would be passed on (recessive or dominant) I would keep records of each one. then WHEN or if I found a male from unrelated lines with a similar trait I would mate him to a standard. if they both had the dominant gene I wanted I would mate them, if not and the gene was recessive I wouldnt bother. why breed that many and still not get what you want? All this line brreding is done to try and take a recessive trait and make it dominant and that is where the mutations and problems come into play. I wasnt nuts about it either, if it happened fine if not that is ok too. While I did this for a short time and do understand to a point about wanting a specific look I truly do not understand all the hooplah about the "odd" colored gliders. sure they are beautiful. but I feel something like this should not be done in such great numbers. When I did the mouse thing if I found an odd color it made that one all the more delightful for the rarity of it. So now everyone has white faced or whatever. what is wrong with the classic grey? didnt God know what HE was doing when HE designed them? Do we think we can improve the breed? seems as though we cannot. Why cant we just be happy with however nature desides them to be...
be gentle on spanking me for speaking my mind...my Daddy passed away yesterday and I am feeling alittle...explosive. But thank God for my WOLVES and SUGAR GLIDERS because they are BALM to a wounded heart (NO MATTER THE COLOR!)

PS....about being glad about the breeding done to produce dogs...all dogs originally started as wolves, unbeleivable but true!!! when you spend time with both like I do, you will soon realize that wolves are FAR superior in many ways to dogs...so line breeding actually can take away from a species making it inferior.


Edited by JillMarie (03/27/09 03:32 AM)
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:grey: Bosom Buddy Creations:grey:
^website link wink

Remember that God Loves You!

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