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#756402 - 03/28/09 03:23 AM Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
Read Part 1
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#756564 - 03/28/09 02:28 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: sugarlope]
BeckiT Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 16083
Loc: Manitowoc, WI
Quote:
A national glider registry similar to the AKC's record keeping process would be a HUGE help to avoid inbreeding...
The only thing that AKC does is make a record of the dog, their lineage and any awards they gain through dog showing or trials.. They have no control over who breeds what dog to what dog, nor do they care... IMO the 2 pedigree databases being kept for gliders now are a much bigger step in the right direction than the AKC would be (plus, AKC charges you to access each pedigree you look at, even if it's for your own dog!). When I first got into gliders 3 years ago, it wasn't commonplace for glider breeders to supply lineage, it was just about maybe 2 years ago that the community came to see how important the tracing of your glider's lineage is..
_________________________
~Becki & Crew~
Glidin' High Sugar Gliders
So You Want to Own a Sugar Glider? Read and Share wink

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#756723 - 03/28/09 06:25 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: BeckiT]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
The importance of keepimg lineages actually was started by us who had the foundation lines
of the White Face Blondes which then was followed by the Leucitic.

As to Data Bases, sevrral individuals tryed ti establish a Registery but lack of interest from individuals to Register their gliders so the idea of doing centralize Registery never really got off the ground.

I know I have most of my gliders registered over on Priscilla's Data Base. Sheila at one time had one on hrr site for only her gliders but I do not think it is still working.

Do not know the other Data Base that is currently working.
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#756726 - 03/28/09 06:31 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Judie]
BeckiT Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 16083
Loc: Manitowoc, WI
The other database belongs to Jennifer Bender/Pet Sugar Gliders http://www.psgdatabase.com/psgdatabase/index.php
_________________________
~Becki & Crew~
Glidin' High Sugar Gliders
So You Want to Own a Sugar Glider? Read and Share wink

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#756727 - 03/28/09 06:34 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: BeckiT]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
That's right Becki, I forgot about Jennifer Bender's site. Thank You. agree
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#756734 - 03/28/09 06:59 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Judie]
Sylvia1
Unregistered


I believe it's of utmost importance to keep records of pedigrees and a health database. That is if you want to consider yourself professional.. If you're just putting gliders together without thought or planning,then not so much. It can't be that difficult to put a pedigree database together if there are many out there already keeping track of their own lines? In this way if there is a known issue,for example the sterile one,serious breeders will know enough to keep away from these pedigrees.With respect to the various health issues,I feel it's our duty to our gliders and our fellow breeders to be honest and open about a known problem. We must learn to be kinder to eachother,take away the negativity, and work together . All this is so very easy to do on paper and to preach but when you have a drop dead gorgeous glider in front of you that has a health issue,it really hurts!

Sylvia

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#756798 - 03/28/09 09:08 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ]
Feather Offline
Administrator

Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 12177
Loc: Wisconsin
I have finally read this thread and I am glad to find that having a national registry has finally been brought up.

There is a need to have some form of registry for Sugar Gliders. The glider needs to be assigned its own number, mainly because there are hundreds of gliders with the name Gizmo, Lilo, Stitch.........

If someone were to take on keeping a registry for gliders and assigned each glider a number then it would be easier to keep lineages straight.

Right now you say Sam is by Joe out of Mary, But which Joe and Mary. When you have gliders having the same name your are going to have that problem.

A Single glider registry, with gliders being assigned numbers would allow breeders to better track pedigrees and would also help to identify lines that are producing undesireable, unhealthy traits in gliders.

In the horse industry they can trace every horse that is sired by a specific stallion and in regards to the diseases HERDA and HYPP they have traced back to one stallion for HERDA and one for HYPP. Without a national registry, that has assigned registration numbers, this wouldn't have been possible as years ago there were several horses with the same name, most were usually also identified with their breeders name as well as the individual horses name, but the breeders actually felt they needed a way to keep records on all horses breed and the registry was formed.

I know I am a new person to gliders, and I am not a breeder, but I still see the need for a glider registry. It would be a large undertaking, but it would greatly aid in tracking a gliders true lineage if they were assigned numbers.

JMHO
_________________________
Kimberley
Feathers-Sweetie, Sklyar Blue, Mister Peanut, Big Mack & Ibo
Fur-Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Micheal, Stevie, Cho & Maharet :bb: T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon :wfb: TY, TJ, Khayman & T'Pring :rtmo: O'Ryan :leu:
Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker and the rest of my babies over the :rbridge:


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#756802 - 03/28/09 09:15 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Feather]
TheGliderPlayroom Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 02/24/04
Posts: 1594
Loc: Youngstown, Ohio
The PSG database does assign each glider a unique number. For instance, if you look up my joey Bonnie, it says

Quote:
Bonnie glplrob299 {50% Possible Leucistic Het F} 12/01/2008


"glprlo" is my breeder code, so you know she was bred by me; "a" "b" or "c" refers to the cycle through of numbers (a1-a999, then b1-b999 etc), then the next number available in the database.
_________________________
Helen
The Glider Playroom
PSG/Sugar Glider Database
Vice-President of the NE.O.B.B.C.

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#756832 - 03/28/09 10:19 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
I have not posted anything of significance in a while on any board. I was brought here because of a fairly new breeder who was upset about what was being said. I look at the original post and am not sure that the original intent was. There are a lot of good things going on with genetics.There are a lot of good seasoned breeders. There are a lot of discoveries being made with color that have nothing to do with linebreeding or inbreeding. breeders who have colored gliders also have normals, retired ones and several of them. People who have colored gliders are selling them as normals (at four days oop) in order to see them go to the right home. Seasoned breeders get more emails and phone calls from newer colored breeders asking "will these two go together?" Seasoned breeders are more pickey choosing who they sell to. Many of them are not selling their expensive gliders, not because the price is too high for anyone to afford, but because the home isn't right. They would rather hang on to the glider and not sell it than put it in the wrong hands of a greedy person trying to make a buck. If someone inquires about a glider that I have for sale, I go to gc and look to see what their posts say so I will get some idea of how experienced they are. Seasoned breeders know the right lineages (there are wrong ones pubished out there). Seasoned breeders do have necropsy's done but we don't lose many.
About the health defects of colored gliders:
People who pay $150-200 for a glider are less likely to have a necropsy done on a year old glider and that is why you are not seeing normal glider's results of necropsys. I believe that health issues with young gliders are no different in colored gliders than normals.The necropsys are just not being done on a normal glider so it is not a fair statement to say that there are more defects. A breeder would have a necropsy done on a glider because they have a responsibility to their clients to report any illnesses. In my 9 years of being a breeder I have only had one joey die shortly after arrival. This joey had a known defect. This was not due to linebreeding or inbreeding. These gliders were totally unrelated. Other than that one baby I have never had a joey that died with genetic defect that was placed in a new home. I have sold hundreds of joeys. Priscilla had a pair of parents that had bred three years before having a baby with a defect and they only had one in their life of breeding. I am one of the original colored breeders. I have seen many of generations of my gliders being bred. I have 7 generations of WFB of one of my lines myself. I don't breed the line together. They are all with unrelated gliders. The Albino line was our only line that was linebred and it was bred out for several generations before breeding back to an great half uncle. All of my albino hets are paired with normals - I have no albino hets with albino hets at this time. To my knowledge there have never been any genetic defects on any of those gliders and to me they are the closest bred gliders of any of them. There are breeders that are breeding too close in lines where there are many choices to find acceptable partners for their lone glider. Many of the reasons are because of availability at the time their new 8 week old needs a partner, or convenience of getting one from a breeder close by so they won't have to pay shipping. If there is a glider that has too many say "Mickeys" in a lineage, I will not sell that glider to another person where the lineage is too close. I will however try to find them a suitable glider from another breeder. Eddie this is the behind the scenes things that breeders do to better the lines. If I observe a breeder that I originally approved of doing something unethical, too close in breeding, or not giving their clients the proper lineage, I reprimand them. They don't like it and generally don't like me for spanking them, but I feel it is important. I know there are many older established breeders doing the same.
The thing that really upsets me is this broken lineage. Recently, I was asked to give advice in a situation. I see this happening more and more and it makes me ill. breeders who are getting into colors will purchase a glider for less because the parents have been passed to three families. None of these homes are USDA. USDA requires me to keep records of my pairs and births. There are no papers, records of birth or babies born. These new breeders get a good deal and start to breed these gliders with incomplete lineages. They are almost always Leu hets. What really upsets me is that the original seller has gone out of business and had this gigantic sale to get rid of their gliders. The new breeder sees these cheap prices and picks up a good deal with a broken or incomplete lineage. I wish this had been the concern or topic of this thread. Not the issue of seasoned breeders making money by charging high prices. I see that there is a concern for the health of the colored gliders, but the other was brought up. As a seasoned breeder who knows where all the original colors came from, and years of expertise, I feel as if I can charge more selling to a breeder or individual than someone with a broken lineage with little experience. I spend literally hours a month in emails and phone calls of people wanting to know the history of these gliders, how you get them, how to set up a good breeding program. If I am going to give someone this kind of information, they will pay for it (in the price of the joey) if they purchase a glider from me. If I sell a normal for $175-200 they will get just as much of my time and advise as a person purchasing a colored one, but they will get a healthy glider with a lot of before and after support. Most gliders that are normals go for $125, but that is all you get - a glider with no education. I charge $200 for a normal, but they will also have more than 10 hours of my time if they need it. I am upset with breeders who don't pass along the proper lineage with the glider. I don't like buyers who have purchased gliders from other breeders asking me for advice about the joey they purchased. I don't like it when breeder breed colored gliders and they don't even understand percentages of hets. I have always posted my pairs and lineage for everyone to see. I have seen by the time there are three generations of gliders, the lineage is wrong. I am constantly having to write these breeders and tell them that their breeder has given them the wrong lineage. I know the lineages and errors because those original gliders in the lineage were mine. I am wondering if this could be some of the problems that you are seeing Eddie. I don't come to the boards now enough to see whats happening and I am sure as owner of this site, you see all of them, but I will say it might have been beneficial to privately ask the original colored breeders if there has always been these health issues. If there is a rise in health issues, it is not because of the foundation breeders. It is because of the next tier of breeders who were not careful enough when they sold their offspring to newer breeders.
Our environment plays a large role in the health of our gliders. Two years ago they said one in 10 women will get breast cancer. I am in a group on Sat mornings and it has 12 women in it. Four out of 12 have had breast cancer. I would say there is more sickness on the rise in this world other than gliders. Much of that sickness is due to our foods we eat as well as our environment and lifestyle.
_________________________
ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL

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#756859 - 03/28/09 10:58 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Sheila]
KristopherDeRose
Unregistered


wow sheila I gotta read all that lmao!

All I have to say is...

All you people that do not breed are not interested in breeding or never have bred any animal. You will never understand why breeders do what they do. Us breeders have a responsibility to keep tame healthy gliders for the people that want pets along with keeping our pet/breeders tame.

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#756870 - 03/28/09 11:17 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ]
SugarGliderCandy
Unregistered


The original question I believe was why is it acceptable for breeders of color to continue breeding hundreds of gliders, line cross, inbreed and all that- when there is hoopla and disgust over mill breeders who do the same- produce hundreds of joeys, inbreed, line breed, etc...

Is there a number of joeys produced to be associated with or considered a mill breeder? At what point does a breeder cross the line of hobby breeder/ breeder into mill breeder??

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#756876 - 03/28/09 11:29 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
Who is linebreeding? I think the only lines that are linebred are platinum and albino. Not all the platinum offspring are linebred. Those aren't the gliders in question here with health issues. None of those gliders have had any health issues. Eddie I am not sure as to what are the secrets are that you referred to in your post. Please enlighten us. As a breeder I would like to know of any untold secrets out there especially if this concerns the health of a glider.
_________________________
ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL

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#756878 - 03/28/09 11:39 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Sheila]
KarenE Online   /gc/lgc
Owner

Registered: 03/25/00
Posts: 41393
Loc: LittleRock, AR USA
Eddie won't have internet access until tomorrow sometime. He is away with family.
_________________________
Your Sugar Glider Resource Center
Sugar Glider Help



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#756903 - 03/29/09 12:14 AM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ]
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 956
Loc: Homestead, FL
I don't feel the number of joeys produced determines what is a mill breeder. It is more about the condition the animals are in, their housing and husbandry practices. So to me a mill breeder is someone who keeps animals in cages that are too small, has no regard for the animals well being, provides no medical attention, pulls joeys that are too young, breeds the females till they die and so on. I don't think that is what any of our breeders are doing, whether they are producing a few joeys or alot more than that, nor do I think that was the issue at hand here.
_________________________
Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.

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#756915 - 03/29/09 12:37 AM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Adri]
7glider7
Unregistered


There are multiple references to "health issues being seen more frequently" throughout these couple of threads.

Can someone please chime in with what health issues we are seeing more frequently? Is it cancer? Is it liver failure? Is it kidney failure? I live in a small bubble with 4 gliders...can someone who works with many people and is well connected in the community fill me in?

After a heartbreaking thread I'm sure everyone remembers about a glider dying of lymphoma a while back, I really wanted to start a study examining whether diet and/or genetics played a role in cancer in gliders. I got basically *no* support in terms of making a sticky thread so I could actually gather data for this study. There were stickies for joey studies (important, of course), but apparently nobody really wanted to find out what might be contributing to gliders dying of cancer. Now, I see banners and links all over the place for studies that are being conducted. I'm glad someone's finally gathering some data to figure out what we are doing wrong. I had to ask myself when my idea was shut down though, do people have a problem with me personally? Or do people not want to find out that their diet or their breeding program is the issue?

I'd really like some more specific info on the health issues if anyone has it. Could we just be seeing more health issues in colored gliders because there are now more colored gliders? Or if we compare the number of colored gliders with health issues to the total number of colored gliders (getting a PERCENTAGE), is it uncharacteristically high? Someone needs to be gathering this kind of data. So far, nobody really is, and it seems like the people who want to aren't getting support in gathering it.


Edited by 7glider7 (03/29/09 12:37 AM)

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#757001 - 03/29/09 07:44 AM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ]
TWilson
Unregistered


After reading through this, I have to admit some comments that were made was troubling and some made me chuckle.

Eddie you started this post asking why line breeding, inbreeding, and breeding sterile lines was done and still be done by breeders. I'd like to say that NONE of them were necessary and all are unacceptable in my opinion.

I've read where breeders said that this was necessary and everytime it is stated that it was to achive a color, period. All of the above breeding was "necessary?" No it wasn't, again it was and is only about achiving certain colors, not to benefit the glider in any way.

Would the world of gliders have stopped if there were only gray gliders? I highly doubt it but somewhere, sometime, there were people who were breeding gliders and saw the opportunity to be the first ones that "came out" with a pretty or unusual color and bred for it by any means necessary to "achive" it.

Now that that purpose has been accomplished, breeders are now breeding out the lines to try to clean the mess and there had to be a mess otherwise this breeding would still be practiced. But now, there are still folks breeding bad pairings to achive the same purpose as their predecessors, only they are being told to stop and it isn't right. Little bit of hypocrosy there don't ya think?

Don't get me wrong, there are breeders that have never line or inbred and are trying to do the right thing but they are being shut down by those that want it the easy way. Too bad for those but the precedent was set for them long ago to get the color by any means necessary.

We have breeders that proclaim to breed because of their love for gliders. Is that right cause I read and have heard about breeders sending gliders back because they aren't up to par for breeding, splitting bonded pairs to keep their breeding program going, etc. I ask how is this done if you "love" your gliders. Maybe we just have a very different view of love for the gliders, and I am not talking about anyone in particular, sadly there are many that do this.

Now what made me giggle..... reading about how little a breeders makes or going in the hole. Last year alone I spent well over $20,000 on my gliders care and none of which I can count on my taxes as an expense or loss but I am not complaining nor proclaiming to be a poor rescuer, merely stating a fact. breeder that say they have given away gliders, sold for a reduced fee ect., can and do count that on their taxes as a loss. Sorry but to the poor breeders, I cannot feel your pain.

Linebreeding, inbreeding, breeding sterile lines,bad pairings.....they do and will continue now because of the standard that was set by ones in the beginning. It is kinda like the parents of children that say, "Do as I say, and not as I do." Doesn't fly with kids and it sure won't with new breeders, they are only following the examples laid before them.

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#757004 - 03/29/09 08:23 AM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ]
glidergrl1513 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 12/21/03
Posts: 5725
Loc: Upstate NY
I'm sorry, but I do not agree that prices need to be kept high in order to "weed out" bad owners or bad breeders. Why can't we choose a home for joeys NOT based on money? I know the "good" breeders have questionnaires and talk to their potential new owners, but I'm just not understanding why money has to play such a big role. I realize that people make exceptions to people they really believe will be a good home... but why would they settle for anything less? Why should those people be the EXCEPTION? I don't have a problem with breeders asking fair prices for their gliders, but some are ridiculous. I guess that would be near impossible to change though. People have to get their money back. dunno

I really don't see any difference between "colored" gliders and gray gliders. I don't know why it's acceptable to give grays away, but there would be a riot if someone gave away a creamino. Why is it so much more important to make sure colored gliders don't fall into the wrong hands? Do grays not matter anymore?

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#757006 - 03/29/09 08:32 AM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ]
thefotokat Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1360
Loc: Ft. Pierce, FL
Wow! I'm happy to see the issue of health/genetics and breeding being discussed, but am really disheartened by a lot of what I read. I don't think there is much I can add that Tammy didn't say. There is no "need" for any of these methods. We "need" food, water, etc...we do not "need" colored gliders. That's a "want". I speak from the rescue perspective which is definitely not the same as the breeder perspective. For me, health is everything...not fur color. To do anything to jeopardize the health of the gliders is wrong and certainly not necessary. By trying to breed for a specific "trait", the potential for harm (short term and long term) is there. I'm seeing gliders being diagnosed w/illness and having physical problems before 1 year of age. That is horrible. Some of us have been following this for awhile and discussing this w/several vets and genetics comes up time and time again. For those who say they're "in the hole" after spending so much to purchase the desired breedable gliders, think about the amount of money the rescues and owners have to spend on the health issues that are showing up in their homes. Thousands of dollars are being spent taking care of those gliders. My other question is when you're "breeding out" a line w/the intent of "cleaning it up", what about the joeys born before it is "clean"? What about their health?
_________________________
Kate
SouthEast Sugar Gliders
SESG Rescue and Sanctuary
SECARES
Go To The Vet!!!

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#757030 - 03/29/09 09:49 AM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: thefotokat]
Sylvia1
Unregistered


Jen(7glider7) asked in a previous post what these health issues are , that are cropping up. I would like to know as well. It's important to determine if these are diet related,environmental or genetic and again record and share this information with other breeders .

Sylvia

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#757103 - 03/29/09 12:53 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Yes, I would like to see someome be honest here and quit dancing around the so called "Health Issues in Colored Gliders" under a year old.

Lumping all of us Color breeders into one big heap is certainily not right.

If we wamt true Honesty here... then Glider Cemtal is going to have to let us post as to Names of the so called people who are producing Sick gliders. Also, names of those who are breeding Sterility in Healthy Lineages.
As to Money.... I have heard this argumeent over and overr till I am sick. No one has to spend a dime on a sugar glider if they do not want to. I certanily do not force people to buy my babies... amd nor do I send out sick gliders that die before they are a year old. I do not breed sterility in Leucistics to deliberty produce cheap gliders.


I feel we need to get to issue here. Either we call out the irresponsible breeders by their names or this thread then shoild be closed as it has no purpose. And to do so... then Eddie needs to start first since he started this thrrad by pointing fingerrs to the Colored Breedrr since he is an admin or owner of Glider Central.
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#757115 - 03/29/09 01:13 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Judie]
KristopherDeRose
Unregistered


Judie GC wont allow us to do so as they have the no drama rule.. and that could cause some problems..

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#757119 - 03/29/09 01:20 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16758
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
After a heartbreaking thread I'm sure everyone remembers about a glider dying of lymphoma a while back, I really wanted to start a study examining whether diet and/or genetics played a role in cancer in gliders. I got basically *no* support in terms of making a sticky thread so I could actually gather data for this study. There were stickies for joey studies (important, of course), but apparently nobody really wanted to find out what might be contributing to gliders dying of cancer. Now, I see banners and links all over the place for studies that are being conducted. I'm glad someone's finally gathering some data to figure out what we are doing wrong. I had to ask myself when my idea was shut down though, do people have a problem with me personally? Or do people not want to find out that their diet or their breeding program is the issue?



You and me both. I also posted on several different boards what Dr.Tristan was looking for was ALL cases of cancer that was out there. He already had TWO…he had Karin’s glider and he had Gina’s gliders information. He also asked for the lineages these gliders came from, He then asked me to make a post to gather up ALL information I could on gliders with cancer, their age, their diagnoses, etc so we could get it all together and to SEE if there WAS a common denominator. I got a response from Cora and Gretchen (thank both of you) and nobody else.

Recently, he and I discussed getting a database going to post any and all information of illnesses, diets, procedures, the ways that other vets treated, etc. This was going to be for veterinarians to have access to, with full photos of procedures he did, different medications appropriate for different things, etc. I asked around for some help gathering information on this as well, and guess what? I still have nothing to give to him.

This community (the glider community in general) sit back and yell and scream when there ARE so many different issues coming up, such as liver, dental, cancer, anal gland issues, severe yeast infections that keep reoccurring, etc, yet when folks reach out to try to help, it is like you are talking to a brick wall. Instead of everyone thinking only ONE resource can help the glider community why not share ALL the information you obtain publicly and let as many that can and are willing to help, Help.

Quote:
think about the amount of money the rescues and owners have to spend on the health issues that are showing up in their homes.


Also those that are taking money out of their own pockets to help others that have gliders that cant afford vet costs. Or those that say hey, every time you get a glider in, if the owner is willing, lets have X,Y, and Z done to have some comparisons made and put it on my account.
Why does a glider *HAVE* to be sick, or rescued to have a vet visit? Or for that to be the time you have a relationship with your vet?

Quote:
I'm seeing gliders being diagnosed w/illness and having physical problems before 1 year of age. That is horrible.



I totally agree with you Kate, that IS horrible. Can you and will you please share with us some of these issues you have seen? I know there was Tammys baby that she lost at a VERY young age, due to liver problems. I don’t believe the cause was ever pinpointed though, correct me if I am wrong here.

Quote:
Some of us have been following this for awhile and discussing this w/several vets and genetics comes up time and time again.


Again, agreed. Yet when some of us state the our vets are stating it is more than likely genetics, we are the bad guy.

With that being said, once again, I think it doesn’t matter WHAT color a glider is, these illnesses are showing up across the board in ALL colors.

Quote:
It's important to determine if these are diet related,environmental or genetic and again record and share this information with other breeders .


I think it is information that should be made PUBLIC, whether breeder or just owner.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#757120 - 03/29/09 01:22 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Srlb]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16758
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
Yes, I would like to see someome be honest here and quit dancing around the so called "Health Issues in Colored Gliders" under a year old.

Lumping all of us Color breeders into one big heap is certainily not right.

If we wamt true Honesty here... then Glider Cemtal is going to have to let us post as to Names of the so called people who are producing Sick gliders. Also, names of those who are breeding Sterility in Healthy Lineages.
As to Money.... I have heard this argumeent over and overr till I am sick. No one has to spend a dime on a sugar glider if they do not want to. I certanily do not force people to buy my babies... amd nor do I send out sick gliders that die before they are a year old. I do not breed sterility in Leucistics to deliberty produce cheap gliders.


I feel we need to get to issue here. Either we call out the irresponsible breeders by their names or this thread then shoild be closed as it has no purpose. And to do so... then Eddie needs to start first since he started this thrrad by pointing fingerrs to the Colored Breedrr since he is an admin or owner of Glider Central.


I second this.

As I just stated...MAKE IT PUBLIC...FOR EVERYONE!!
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#757123 - 03/29/09 01:25 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Srlb]
KristopherDeRose
Unregistered


I would like to see it too but I don't see it happening...

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#757130 - 03/29/09 01:50 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ]
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: TWilson
Now what made me giggle..... reading about how little a breeders makes or going in the hole. Last year alone I spent well over $20,000 on my gliders care and none of which I can count on my taxes as an expense or loss but I am not complaining nor proclaiming to be a poor rescuer, merely stating a fact. Breeder that say they have given away gliders, sold for a reduced fee ect., can and do count that on their taxes as a loss. Sorry but to the poor breeders, I cannot feel your pain.



breeders make money, yes, but think about how much of that money goes back into the gliders and how much of that money a breeder gets to "enjoy"....

Of all the money I've made so far on joeys, every single penny has gone(or is going) towards the gliders. I'm currently using the money from my joeys to upgrade all the cages, buy more wheels, and also have some males that need to get neutered. I consider myself "in debt" until I have all those things taken care of. Then, once all that is taken care of, all the money from future joeys will be being set aside to help pay for the costs of having the vet come to my home so that we can finally get USDA licensed, then we have licensing fees and such to deal with, etc...

So, sure, some breeders here may make THOUSANDS or even TENS of thousands of dollars each year, but I'll bet that the only "breeders" enjoying the money they make are mill breeders and that's because they don't give a hoot about their gliders' well-being and thus those poor gliders don't see a penny of the money being cruelly squeezed out of them. frown
_________________________
~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin

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#757141 - 03/29/09 02:20 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Guerita135]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Originally Posted By: Srlb
You and me both. I also posted on several different boards what Dr.Tristan was looking for was ALL cases of cancer that was out there. He already had TWO…he had Karin’s glider and he had Gina’s gliders information. He also asked for the lineages these gliders came from, He then asked me to make a post to gather up ALL information I could on gliders with cancer, their age, their diagnoses, etc so we could get it all together and to SEE if there WAS a common denominator. I got a response from Cora and Gretchen (thank both of you) and nobody else.

Recently, he and I discussed getting a database going to post any and all information of illnesses, diets, procedures, the ways that other vets treated, etc. This was going to be for veterinarians to have access to, with full photos of procedures he did, different medications appropriate for different things, etc. I asked around for some help gathering information on this as well, and guess what? I still have nothing to give to him.

This community (the glider community in general) sit back and yell and scream when there ARE so many different issues coming up, such as liver, dental, cancer, anal gland issues, severe yeast infections that keep reoccurring, etc, yet when folks reach out to try to help, it is like you are talking to a brick wall. Instead of everyone thinking only ONE resource can help the glider community why not share ALL the information you obtain publicly and let as many that can and are willing to help, Help.
off_topic My experience with trying to do studies is that the glider community states they want the information, but they don't want to do what it takes to GET that information. In the past 3+ years, I have attempted to conduct two separate studies, with the support of GC. The first one was a study on Glider Weights in Captivity. I had less than a dozen submissions to that study and finally gave up on it after over a year. And, of those submissions, only a few were complete data. frown
The second study is one that I am currently conducting on Joey Development. Again, I started this study over a year ago and to date have only received 13 submissions - a few of which are my own. Truly, this is sad, and yet the community continues to ask questions about what weight their joey should be at a given age and they are pointed to me as having the information. It is hard to give information based on such a small group shakehead
So, Jen & Peggy, don't feel isolated in your inability to collect data. Why people won't contribute is a continuing question to me confused
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#757147 - 03/29/09 02:37 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Peggy, I do not feel the illneses we see today are any different than what we saw many years ago in just the little Normal Colored Gliders.

Msny years ago... Lumpy Jaw was attribited to Dry Food only. Today... we know that Lumpy Jaw is a symptom and not a Primary cause of a Disease. Lumpy Jaw is now known as a symptom of a many medical issues from, Demtal problems, sinus infections, eye infections, or abcesses and more. When a male was thought to have chewed up the female due to his aggressive breeding behavior... it is now known that these huge holes in females are caused by an abcess and becomes even larger by the cage partner from his compulsive need to overgroom the injured glider. Liver problems we sttill see them today as we did so many yrars ago and the neucropsies usually are inconclusive as to cause.

HLP is a good example to use as to improper diagnoses of an illness. Many yrars ago mill gliders along with babies that had already been sold... were dropping like flies. The deaths were attributed to HLP from the mills along with gliders on the BML diet. If the BML fed gliders were also dying from HLP... my thought on the problem was not diet but another issue that was depleating/blocking the life substaing calcium in the gliders bod so the Illness had to be secondary to another Primay Disease. And it was later proven that HLP could be syptomatic due to a Primary Infection from parasites/bacterial or both.

We are seeing some progress with a few vets who seem to express interest in Sugar Gliders. But we are still in the dark ages with most.

Even with Neucropys.... not enough of them are being proscessed in depth by labs nor with owners. Why? Becsuse it takes more time and monies than what an average person can afford. We need studies in a Controled Inviromemt to be done on a cross section of the population of sugar gliders. And those whould have to funded by Special Grants. Unfortunatly this I do not see being done with a Sugar Glider at this time.

_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#757266 - 03/29/09 06:57 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Judie]
suggiemom
Unregistered


Quote:
All you people that do not breed are not interested in breeding or never have bred any animal. You will never understand why breeders do what they do.


Kris, are you saying that if we don't breed, or have no interest in breeding that we couldn't possibly be intelligent enough to understand?

Quote:
Us breeders have a responsibility to keep tame healthy gliders for the people that want pets along with keeping our pet/breeders tame.


What? That doesn't make a bit of sense really! Yes you have a responsibility IF you're going to breed and sell joeys to produce the healthiest animals that you can and to make sure they have good temperments, etc., but more important is to do it properly and not breed willy nilly JUST to get cute, friendly pets that sell easily.

Are you saying that if we don't breed then we're too stupid to figure out that line breeding and inbreeding is never a good thing no matter how someone tries to justify it? Are you saying that we don't get to have an opinion? I mean, after all, we (the non breeders) are the ones BUYING those joeys most of the time so I'm going to have to disagree with you on that!

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#757293 - 03/29/09 07:51 PM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ]
AmyLynn
Unregistered


I think every one that owns a glider needs to help with the studies the breeders are trying to do. And like the studies Suz is doing. I contacted Sue about the joey study and started to do it every day weighing the joey. Until my mom died and my life got all messed up. But I will help where ever I can now. If I have a glider that gets sick I will bring the information here. We need to all come together to figure out why are gliders are getting sick and dying. Whether it being from their diet, being in-breed, not be taking to the vet in time before a infection kills them. And some people do wait to take their gliders to the vet and by this time it can be to late. Instead of pointing fingers and people getting upset. Let's come together as a community and stick together and help are babies. This needs to be done by everyone not just a handful of people. I just want our gliders to stop dying and until we come together and collect the data needed to give to our vets its not going to happen. Just my opinion.

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#757419 - 03/30/09 01:01 AM Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: sugarglidersuz]
7glider7
Unregistered


Suz, I guess I feel isolated and frustrated in my attempt to gather data because at least GC allowed you to make a sticky of your post so that people would see it and contribute data.

When I requested this, I was rejected. It was suggested that I could simply "put it in my signature" to encourage entries. While I'm sure this would help, it has nowhere near the visiblity of a sticky, or a banner. I was simply told that the mods etc. could only allow so many stickies, and apparently a study about cancer wasn't deemed important enough to make the cut.

All I have to say is we will continue being in the dark about whether the diets we feed or the breeding practices we promote are causing health issues in our gliders until 1) Glider forums support people with a science background in collecting and analyzing ACTUAL DATA, and 2) people in the community are willing to support the study and put out that data.

Until people are actually going to do a systematic, scientific analysis, all we are doing is whining in the dark and carrying on with no real direction, and it's not going to change anything.

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