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#7663 - 06/27/03 11:01 AM ASGS Says BML Is Harmful To Sugar Gliders
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wow, check out this webpage:

http://www.glidersociety.com/nutrition/diet1.htm

The American Sugar Glider Society (ASGS) says that BML is inadequate and harmful to sugar gliders!
They provide a detailed analysis from veterinarians and compare BML with what the gliders eat in the wild.
They say the main problems with BML are:

- There is too much vitamin D, and may be at toxic levels. The author points out that the symptoms of Vitamin D overdose are similar to hind leg paraylsis.
Since Vitamin D also increase calcium aborbtion, too much Vitamin D can lead to calcium overdose.

- RepCal Herptivite was designed for reptiles, not mammals, and another vitamin supplement better suited for mammals should be used instead. They recommend a multivitamin put out by Pet Glider.

- Freezing causes some of the vitamins to lose their potency, particularly with thiamine (Vitamin B1). They recommend not to mix in vitamins, but instead, sprinkle the vitamins onto the food daily.

- Honey causes the blood sugar levels in gliders to spike and then plummet unnaturally. Honey is also known to contain botulism spores, which can be fatal in humans under the age of 12 months


Their final conclusion concerning BML:


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Because of the many concerns and problems inherent with the "BML mix", including the possibility of illness, irreversible systems
damage, and possibly death from Vitamin D toxicity, or death from botulism, as well as the presence of foods that have been diluted, it is
the stand of ASGS that the "BML diet" be discontinued in favor of a diet that more closely resembles the glider natural diet, and will not
cause illness or death either through Vitamin D overdose or botulism.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">


The ASGS also provides recommendations on changes to the basic BML mix to make it better, but caution that these replacements are:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
guideline as a transition mix to a wholesome diet and not a diet in and of itself, and glider owners
are encouraged to do individual research to find a good balance for individual glider needs

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Any comments?

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#7664 - 06/27/03 11:06 AM Re: ASGS Says BML Is Harmful To Sugar Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


wow. thats really scary...is this like a recent development. I have used the BML ever since I got josie and she loves it...should I change <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

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#7665 - 06/27/03 11:14 AM Re: ASGS Says BML Is Harmful To Sugar Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


It looks like the article is dated April 2003.

I've been using BML with no ill effects, though I feed it every other day. I've been rotating it with other diets, just for the variety.

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#7666 - 06/27/03 11:25 AM Re: ASGS Says BML Is Harmful To Sugar Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Everyone has there own personal feelings. There is no perfect diet.... that is for sure. But my perosnal feelings are if glider owners have been feeding bml for a # of years with no ill effects then why should I question it, especially if my gliders are healthy and happy on it? I will follow the BML plan until I find something that I feel is better for my gliders. All 6 of my gliders LOVE the BML and they love the variety of fruit and veggies I give them every night. I'm sure the ASGS has the diets that they love and know have worked for a # of years. I just feel that the BML is for me and my gliders. That is why every board says YOU should do your own research to come up with an idea of what you feel is the right diet. No one forced me into using the BML that was my choice.

I also feel that Burbon isn't out there to Kill all of our gliders, she is a very friendly person who I can tell cares greatly about her gliders. So why would she want to make something that would harm her babies?


Edited by sil (06/27/03 11:28 AM)

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#7667 - 06/27/03 12:22 PM Re: ASGS Says BML Is Harmful To Sugar Gliders [Re: RSXTC]
Anonymous
Unregistered


As far as nutritional analysis, I know that Randy did one of the BML mixture awhile back, and it came up really well. Just the mix itself has a high ca:ph ratio, but then you add the veggies and fruit and it averages out to 2:1. And the D toxicity issue has been floating around for awhile...there really isn't substantiated research that BML causes it (in all the necropsies done of BML diet gliders, none have had diet-related problems). And as for the reptile vitamins, vitamins are vitamins...they don't change for whatever species they're sold for. It's just mix or ratio of the particular mixture....and since the D toxicity risk seems to be the main concern with the RepCal and Herptivite, without evidence, I'm ok with using BML.

There are several great diets out there...BML just happens to be convenient for me, and seems to have an excellent track record. AND my gliders gobble it up. There are lots of people here whose gliders won't eat it, so obviously if your gliders won't eat it then it's not a good diet for them!

I'm not qualified to refute all the ASGS claims, but I have been following this debate avidly...and I know that most of the points raised in the article you linked to, were refuted in various threads...so if you do a search (maybe last 6 months), I'm sure you'll find MORE than you could ever have wanted on BML.

good luck with your research <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Crystal
and Punka <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />

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#7668 - 06/27/03 12:40 PM Re: ASGS Says BML Is Harmful To Sugar Gliders [Re: ]
Lucy Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/14/01
Posts: 7354
Loc: Lexington, KY
Unfortunately, it seems that seldom a week goes by without a post about this. I'm afraid that many of us have read it several times. The writer is a gifted writer and states points eloquently. I'm not sure the content, however, is well-substantiated, nor the arguments sound.

The debate, in my opinion, has appeared for many months to be more personal than substanitive. Were the comments to have been penned by an animal nutrition expert, I would be more comfortable with the emphatic tone of the article. My guess is that it expresses the opinion of a few, and the strong message it gives is unfortunate.

The fact is that thousands of gliders have been fed BML for many years now. Based on the knowledge we had and have of glider nutrition and the precedents set by diets from native habitats, the BML appears sound. Is it the best diet? Who knows? Hopefully diet research currently under way will help in our quest for knowledge in this area. Is BML adequate and proven and sound? You bet.

Your specific concerns:
1) botulism. Honey can cause botulism. Out of necropsies and chemistries done on hundreds of deceased gliders, not ONE of them has been connected with botulism.

2) freezing vitamins. Nothing that I have EVER read indicates that vitamins lose significant potency when frozen. (children can now take their vitamins in freeze pop form, for instance). In fact, in some cases, freezing foods can preserve vitamins.

3) vitamin d toxicity. If you have a significant concern about this, substitute the Repcal without Vitamin D. Again, however, this appears to be without substantiation, as nothing I have read or seen in necropsies and labs would indicate that this has caused a single glider's death. Dr. Ellen Dierenfeld, noted animal nutritionist, has indicated that because of this, she believes that like other nocturnal animals, vitamin D is not an issue with gliders at all.

d) reptile vitamins. Repcal states on their website and has confirmed in writing one of our members that the quality of their vitamins is human grade. I've never understood this part of the debate. If reptile vitamins are disturbing to you, you should consider another diet. But the reason for excluding this particular product line has escaped my reasoning after all the reading I've done.

I'm not saying this as a person who believes there is only one diet. I have my gliders on two different diets right now. My gliders are thriving on both diets. I also believe that right now there are diets that are as good as BML.

I have no qualms about questioning diets, including BML. I regret the exclusionary and voilatile nature of the article, however, and wish the author had chosen a different way to express differences in diets, or could have substantiated the article with specific glider references.

If I sound frustrated, it's because I'm really tired of the debate. I wish we could just agree that there are several good options for gliders and concentrate on research, concentrate on glider wellness, and not make linear jumps in thinking that have the potential to scare people and endanger gliders. We're facing problems with pet stores, rescues, health issues probably unrelated to diets, and a proposed national exotics ban. I'm not sure why dissing BML is so important.

I would also like to point out that we do not recommend diets at GliderCENTRAL, but do post diets that are also on that website when they are proven over generations.

I'm so tired of this -- aren't you all? Why can't we work TOGETHER for the good of the glider rather than tearing apart what has worked for many for so long?
_________________________


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#7669 - 06/27/03 12:40 PM Re: ASGS Says BML Is Harmful To Sugar Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I don't know if anyone has ever brought this up, but couldn't freezing the vitamins actually reduce the "toxicity" and is something that is vital to the diet? If the ASGA is saying the potentcy is to high, did they take into consideration the lower of the potentcy when frozen? I think this would have to be answered by Bourbon herself.

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#7670 - 06/27/03 01:06 PM Re: ASGS Says BML Is Harmful To Sugar Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


its true they do say its bad,but not everyone there,there are ppl using bml who just dont say so becuase of the bashing.
but its not all bad there is some nice members and mods on there who deserve a pat on the back but for a few of the members on their they will out right bash anyone who feels diffrently. when i first found this out i was kind of upset and didnt understand. i looked into it. there opinions of bml rest on a partial anailisis of just the bml itself not taking the other parts of the diet into consideration. many members there go with diets like the darcy's and parcilla there are some who use a human baby vitamin too,simply becuase one zoo experienmented with it they felt it was a great choice,well its their choice but its no reason to bash someone else's.
while the whole group is noo to blame there are articles published on the site and there are a select few memebrs who can be mean to to others who disagree. i wont name who but i persoanlly had a bad experience where someone basically followed me thru the diet section and was nasty to me every time i posted no matter what i said, from that they then sent me a long and crazy attacking type PM msg. it was all uncalled for and there was no reason for it when i had only been asking questions for my persnal benifit.
The big issue they have with bml is mainly about the vit D and yet at the same time,nobody can come up with the research saying how much if too much is absorbed. and many will admit that they relasize that the over all diet,phosphorus levels need to be considered. many will laso admit they now vit D is a necassisty in a hi calcium diet as it is the buffer used to help absorb the calcium. so can they truly say the levels are too high when admitting these facts...
After doing all the research and going over the other diets including ones designed for profit,surprisingly thses comercial ones gave me just as much trouble as far as published or shared info on ingredients and levels i may ad. i concluded in my own personal opinion that the negative claims were unfounded and the levels of those certain things being questioned were very expalainable and very legitimately there for a reason in the diet.
Something that also plays a role in my sticking with bml is the simple fact that bourbon has done all this work with yrs of experience and knowledge along with other dr etc. there is no profit or self gratification involved, i think that this in itself makes a diffrence besides going over the diet itself and concluding its good. further reasons would be the sheer number of gliders who have thrived on the diet for yrs now. my own gliders have been on it for several yrs now and they are big,happy and healthy,so the diet must be achivieng something right.
P.S. if i did switch diets ever it would NOT be any of the other diets they recomend there and each for reasons too. It would infact be the fresh food diet with monkey biscuit. used by the toronto zoo and what i used myself before discovering bml several yrs ago.
hope this helps
cynthia

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#7671 - 06/27/03 01:06 PM Re: ASGS Says BML Is Harmful To Sugar Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I found this article quite interesting!

Thank you to whoever posted this. Being a fairly new glider owner this is invaluable information.

Thank you!

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#7672 - 06/27/03 01:12 PM Re: ASGS Says BML Is Harmful To Sugar Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


one more thing i ment to mention. i have mentioned it there aswell and it ws completely ignored.
being that their is no marsupial specified vitamin out there there is obviously a need to go with something origianlly designed for anotehr animal.
so why is the reptile one so much worse then any other choice? one fact makes it easy to be inclined to choose the rep vits.
Sugargliders evolved from reptiles and still have some of the skeletal structure to prove it.
knowing that i have to say i feel the repcal is likely the better choice with the excepetion of buying my vits all seperately and mixing myself i dont see how we could meet their requirements more easily with another animal supplement. and i completley dont agree with using baby human vits,they are no where near complete or accurate in there levels but thats just my opinion.
cynthia

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#7673 - 06/27/03 01:14 PM Re: ASGS Says BML Is Harmful To Sugar Gliders [Re: RSXTC]
Anonymous
Unregistered


thats just it,with the exception of the australian zoo diet,taragons diet,many of these diets going aroudn there are fairly new compared to bml
cynthia

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#7674 - 06/27/03 01:24 PM Re: ASGS Says BML Is Harmful To Sugar Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Lucy i agree with u it seems to be more personal then fact and thus why i have taken to posting my own thots in this thread. i have first hand seen how its become a bash against bml and bourbon in threads, i have enjoyed that board and some members very much in other areas but steer very clear of the diet section now adays after the personal level it seemed things had gone by a memebr there.
the honey issue i think was just a mistake being that the most importnat fact was excluded. for honey to cause probelms it is NOT pasturized. raw honey can cause problems but being that the honey we all use IS pasturized it is not an issue. I personally have an uncle who has been a bee keeper for geeze well over 30 yrs. i have had this conversation with him more then once,over raw honey colmb snacks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> it really does taste better that way LOL
but its where the risks are. just like milk. drink it unpastuarized and u are at risk of certain bacteriums.
but ya cant even buy it like that in the stores so why it even comes up in the same breath as bml i just cant figure out. maybe someone is picking for ideas to go against bml at this point?
cynthia

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#7675 - 06/27/03 01:53 PM Re: ASGS Says BML Is Harmful To Sugar Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think what we need to remember is that ALL of us want what is best for our gliders. diet is a very volatile issue, and probably will always remain so. There are a number of well-tested diets available to choose from, and whenever there is more than one choice, people will disagree on what is best. Discussion of our differences is good, it causes us to do further research. Personal attacks and inflammatory remarks are counter-prductive and close people's minds to valuable new information.

diet is a personal choice, most of us try a diet because it has been recommended by another glider owner or glider website. However, we continue to use a diet because we see health in our gliders.

Hopefully more studies, like the one currently being done through the funding of the GRF, will be done, providing additional facts regarding glider nutrition.


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#7676 - 06/27/03 03:03 PM Re: ASGS Says BML Is Harmful To Sugar Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hey all,

I would like to say that this is a very heated debate about BML, I have not used it in years, only because my gliders wouldn't eat it. There are still studies going on in both forums about all diets. It is NOT the intention of the ASGS to bash anyone's diet. If it appears that way, I apologize for any misconception. I have recently become President of the ASGS and would like for both of our forums to work together to find out what is best for our gliders. If your glider is doing well on BML, then stick with it until unrefutable facts state that it is not desirable. Generations of gliders have done well on it.

My personal views, backed up by my vet, who is also my dad:

Vit D toxicity can occur, though it is very rare in nocturnal animals because sunlight is needed to metabolize Vit D. The thing is that Repcal does make a Vit D free supplement.

Mammalian vitamins are preferred over reptile vitamins because they were synthesized for warm blooded animals with a warm blooded metabolism. While we all, yes all, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> came from reptiles at one point, our metabolisms do differ now. I have not seen any evidence that these vitamins are bad, but absorption rates in rep vs. mam vitamins are different. Using a urine test, my father (Dr. Mac) found that more calcium is absorbed from the mammalian vitamins than with the reptile ones. Keep in mind that this was NOT a scientific study, rather a quick check to see what was being absorbed, and the strength of the two vitamins used were different.

We all have so much to learn, from each other and from science. I know that everyone wants their gliders to be healthy and happy and working together, we can do this! Please accept my apology, Cyn for any disrespect you recieved in our forum, we are trying to uphold a happy and respectful environment. If something like this should happen to you or anyone else in our forum, please notify my immediately.

Thank you all!

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

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#7677 - 06/27/03 03:27 PM Re: ASGS Says BML Is Harmful To Sugar Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I use Rep-Cal with Vit D and Vionate, which is made for mammals! I am not sure what the differences are between the Vionate and the other vitamins, but I like the fact that it is made for mammals, because sugar gliders are mammals. But then again, the sun-coast diet also calls for Rep-Cal, so who knows, I just follow what my chosen diet says! lol

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#7678 - 06/27/03 04:06 PM Re: ASGS Says BML Is Harmful To Sugar Gliders [Re: ]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
I have a lot to say, although I won't, I will say, that glidinforlove has been around a long time, and knows that in the glider community many things can happen, but one thing is for sure respect is something that is earned, it is earned through the experience, and what you contribute to the community as a whole. I also must say that diets as well have survived, many have not, but they survive by the FACTS that are presented, not by scares . Scares are caused many times by people wanting to push another diet, they feel they must defame one diet to get people to switch, this I have seen with the exotic diet, in emails that are passed, on websites that also push the diet. There is very, very few references to the exotic diet, that doesn't include a scare to the BML (unsubstantiated, but a scare non the less), and scares are used to prey on the owners that only want the best for their glider, and sadly the owners many times don't know what to believe. I have seen all this start because on one gentleman whose glider got sick, speculations were made, and a group started running wild to prove it was something it wasn't. That gentleman to this day will tell you, it was not the BML that caused his gliders to die. That page was written during that, and through that remarks were made the only reason, one of the main people were trying to prove the BML was dangerous was because I had called him stupid, in a more recent post he made, he says he will continue till I apologize to himself and others. And until I release ALL my research information. So yes I also agree this is all personal, but the fact that the gliders are not being the main priority, really makes it all pretty mute. So my stand on this is I will not release my research information, that is information I have had to work hard to acquire, it is my work, I have not published it, I never claimed I did. But it is MY work. EVERYTHING, I have learned about gliders, I have shared freely with all glider owners who have visited sites I have been on, many, many owners have benefited from the information, much of the information at the ASGS that is given out regarding health issues, anatomy issues, and diet issues, have been acquired from GC, the aflatoxin issues that is so freely given and information regarding it, has been passed from owner to owner, but it had a base, the information can be checked out and verified, but to make that person divulge her vets, and people she has worked with in the labs etc.. to gain that info, is not what the boards are about, it is about the health and well being of your gliders. The information is passed to the owners as we learn it, to help everyone save their glider from something like that happening. That is what we have done, we have cared about each and everyone of the owners and their gliders and have taken each case personal, not because we are on power trips, but because your gliders lives , are as important to us, as they are to you.

Believe what you want, because for all I have seen, I KNOW what to believe, It doesn't take a lot to see what motivates people. Not when you have seen a lot of things like this for all the wrong reasons. I deal with many rescues, many medical areas, and have seen the times when the gliders life is no longer important to the owner, We as rescuers, still believe that glider is important to us. Do what you think is best, I will not post the truths I have learned, because my motivation is the gliders, that is where it will remain.

Glidinforlove, I have respected you over the years, I am really surprised to see that you have tolerance of such injustice that you know may turn out to be detrimental to the gliders. That board will never have my respect, after seeing what I have seen. diets are NOT a toy to play with, not with our gliders lives, Necropsies are important, research is what has given us the vast knowledge we have today, and research is what is needed for the many, many unanswered questions of not only today, but tomorrow too. There is no room in research for personal vendettas, for opinionated assumptions. As long as that is the way the research there is done, there will be nothing really learned. I can prove anything bad if I want to bad enough. The research methods of making a statement then running around and finding things to prove a point, is not honest, nor healthy.

Again I see the same thing... again I say the same thing, ask the long time owners, not those that have personal problems with someone. I don't advocate Brisky's due to many reasons, because some of them are personal, I don't publicly slam it. Will I substantiate the medical aspects, yes, I can do that with proof. but, on my website, I also have it listed, not listing my personal views, because that is not allowing the owners to make their own judgments. The ASGSis not a research board, it is nothing more that a place to personally slam someone and the diet they use, publicly to make themselves look good. Tel me, do you feel really good being associated with such acts?? How would you honestly feel if in my position?
_________________________
Baybe,My Roots

SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

321-331-1608

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#7679 - 06/27/03 04:18 PM Re: ASGS Says BML Is Harmful To Sugar Gliders [Re: ]
Lucy Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/14/01
Posts: 7354
Loc: Lexington, KY
Meredith, thank you for your post. It was refreshing and hopeful. I'm sure we can all learn from each other and work together. This is a great beginning. Thanks for posting.
_________________________


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#7680 - 06/27/03 06:26 PM Re: ASGS Says BML Is Harmful To Sugar Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"blue"] Glider Greetings: <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

I'm soooooo tired of this discussion......

To the best of my knowledge there are [:"red"] NO [:"blue"] existing controlled scientific studies that prove the value of one glider diet over another. There is lots of anecdotal evidence and a million [:"purple"] OPINIONS [:"blue"]about which diet is best......do your reading.....pick your poison.

As to the Vitamin D issue, there is some solid information available. Check out this link to something I wrote a while ago:

VITAMIN D

There is just no proof that Vitamin D is a problem.....only a bunch of unsupported speculation. BTW, unless it has been corrected, recently, there is a major mistake in the ASGS paper about the amount of Vitamin D3 supplied by the BML diet.

The National Academy of Science paper on D3 mentioned in my other comments is a "bear" to read unless your are highly educated in biochemistry or some such field. For that reason, I didn't bother to provide the link. I don't know if I can even find it, now. E-mail me if you want it. Maybe Toni still has it???
[/]

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#7681 - 06/27/03 06:38 PM Re: ASGS Says BML Is Harmful To Sugar Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I would also have to agree, I went to the the site and a story poped up how this person received a rescue offered the sickly glider bml and Died three days later, I was reading on a little but closed it because I felt like it was bashing my gliders diet.

I'm also tired of this discussion and I've not been here that long. However I am a very open minded person when it comes to diets. But in order to TURN my head I must see some kind of supported evidence not just hear say. This is something that effects my gliders, they are my family and I take what they eat seriously.!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I belive instead of bashing, slaming, whatever we may call it!! We should in fact work together on this, it is for the good of our gliders, we all hopefully have their intrests in mind only. I know in my case they are all that is on my mind when it comes to this. Not marketing, not any of that [censored].

We all have something in common!!! That should be something we should start with and just come together. If others think there is a better solution out there for them to eat Great, BUt SUPPORT it.!! Sorry just had to vent a little.

P.s. I am not saying BML is the only good diet out there at ALL!! I'm saying it works for my glider family, and I hope whatever diet anyone else is using works too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />.!! Glider hugs from my babies to yours <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />!!!!!

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#7682 - 06/27/03 07:02 PM Re: ASGS Says BML Is Harmful To Sugar Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"blue"] Glider Greetings, Jessie: :wave

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I use Rep-Cal with Vit D and Vionate......I am not sure what the differences are between the Vionate and the other vitamins...... the sun-coast diet also calls for Rep-Cal......I just follow what my chosen diet says!

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> [:"blue"]

The SunCoast diet calls for Rep-Cal [:"red"] WITHOUT [:"blue"] D3 because the Vionate already contains D3. Rep-Cal with D3 is designed to be used with Herptivite which [:"red"] DOES NOT [:"blue"] have D3. You need to get the Rep-Cal without D3 or your gliders will be getting more D3 than Lisa's diet calls for!!!
[/]

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#7683 - 06/27/03 07:08 PM Re: ASGS Says BML Is Harmful To Sugar Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


OH NO! I compeltly forgot that I had gotten them repcal from the previous owner and not the suncoast site... I can't believe i didnt even think to check! Can I get repcal without vit D at the petstore?? Thanks for pointing this out to be Randy!

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#7684 - 06/27/03 07:13 PM Re: ASGS Says BML Is Harmful To Sugar Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Jessie, Some pet stores may carry it, if not many will special order it for you. It might just be easier to order it from SunCoast. You will receive it in just a few days.

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#7685 - 06/27/03 07:23 PM Re: ASGS Says BML Is Harmful To Sugar Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


okay, will Trixie and Eddie be okay on the repcal with d3 until then? Will the time they have spent on it effect them? The owner before me followed the suncoast diet, but did not give them the vionate, so I am guessing that is why he got repcal with d3? I feel so bad for not paying close enough attention, I am going to call my pet store now.

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#7686 - 06/27/03 11:16 PM Re: ASGS Says BML Is Harmful To Sugar Gliders [Re: ]
Merlin Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 02/01/02
Posts: 260
Loc: WILLOWSPRINGS MO
I have been using Glider Booster (Dist. by Specialty Exotics). Twice a week I sprinkle a pinch on their meat. All five gliders seem to be healthy and doing fine. Merlin <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#7687 - 06/29/03 02:47 PM Re: ASGS Says BML Is Harmful To Sugar Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well my post got deleted but I am going to post it again here anyway.

Everyone has a different reason for using the diet they use. Maybe the breeder used this certain diet or they've been recommended or maybe it is the only thing they will eat. The only thing I think that really matters is that your glider likes it and it is good for him. BML, although I don't use it, I have to agree is a proven diet and has had a lot of success. Just as much criticism has been given to "cat food" but it is in macpherson's diet and I used that for 7 months when it was all Erwin would eat with no problem.

Everything in life is going to be criticised by someone. Take it as a lesson learned. If nothing was criticised, nothing else would be learned or invented. We'd all be sitting on rocks carving wood with loin cloths on. Use criticism as a learning tool, don't let it get you down and don't let one person's opinion change the way you do things. After all, it's only an opinion.

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#7688 - 06/30/03 02:38 AM Re: ASGS [Re: ]
SugarBaby22 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 5697
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Post deleted


Edited by Jayel (07/03/03 08:11 PM)
_________________________
Linda

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#7689 - 06/30/03 11:46 AM Re: ASGS Says BML Is Harmful To Sugar Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I am very new to this so I donít have any long-term health history but I do know this:

1. Bourbon is very worthy of my trust. With the history she has with gliders as well as the fact that she does all of this without seeking any personal compensation, when she very well could, makes me respect and admire her.
(By the way Bourbon; Very good post! You have every opportunity to slam other people but you choose the high road, which makes me respect you even more.)

2. When my baby got sick a few days after taking her home, I searched and searched for good solid diet information. What I found were a lot of very vague, nonspecific diets. Bourbonís was very precise, specific and easy to follow. Khai is now doing fine and loves her BML so much that she sometimes goes to that before her mealies.

3. I know this debate is not going to end any time in the near future and there are going to be people that will have their own opinions about what is best for the gliders. They are entitled to that. My personal feeling is that until we are able to take the EXACT trees they get the sap from, the EXACT bugs and the EXACT diet they eat in the wild into our homes, so many people that use and love the BML diet canít be wrong.

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#7690 - 08/22/03 12:39 AM Re: ASGS Says BML Is Harmful To Sugar Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
There is too much vitamin D, and may be at toxic levels. The author points out that the symptoms of Vitamin D overdose are similar to hind leg paraylsis.
Since Vitamin D also increase calcium aborbtion, too much Vitamin D can lead to calcium overdose.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

What is too much? What percentage is too much? What sources do they give to back their claim that the concentrations are too high. What study groups are they comparing? If these issues are not addressed then how can the ASGS assert with any credibility that the Levels of D3 are "too much"?

Quote 1

"Your body contains many metal ions that serve important regulatory functions, and Na+, K+, Mg2+, and Ca2+ ions constitute about 99% of the total"

Quote 2

"Many biochemical and physiological processes are triggered by entry of Ca2+ into a cell or release of Ca2+. One process is muscle contraction. Initiation of contraction results from the arrival of a nerve impulse at a motor nerve ending in a muscle fiber, and this causes Ca2+ to be released from a storage site. The released Ca2+ then reacts with a regulator protein."

Page 935
Instructors Edition of
Chemistry & Chemical Reactivity Second Edition
By Kotz & Purcell
Saunders College Publishing
1991 Copyright

With the above information in mind and assuming cell chemical reactions and calcium relationships are very much similar across species lines, then how can there be too much calcium absorption. Calcium is also a buffer and is used to among other things maintain the blood at a constant pH. Calcium has many known and unknown functions in the body and is a chemical in very high demand.

Quote 3

"Calcium balance ó not just intake ó is necessary for healthy bones. This balance is dependent on the absorption rate of calcium consumed as well as the rate of (mostly urinary) calcium excretion."

Quote 4

"Vitamin D has a positive impact on calcium balance, as it increases calcium absorption in the gastrointestinal tract. The most readily available source of vitamin D is exposure to direct sunlight."

Quote 5

"Bone serves as the reservoir for 99 percent of the body's total calcium. Calcium is an essential nutrient for bone health."

The above quotes came from the following link:
Medical Library Search Engine

So excess calcium is either excreted in the urine or stored in the bones, so it would be very difficult to accumulate dangerously high levels of calcium in the body, if there is such a thing, taking only dietary intake into consideration with no other preexisting medical condition.

An overdose of vitamin D3 might release a high amount of calcium into the body but wouldn't that produce seizures not motor loss? I think the author of the above article needs to rethink his approach. He might place his information and compose his information well but without studies, quotes, and books to back him he is just stating his opinions.

The scientific process assumes that a theory that has failed to be disproved is sound, which is the basis for all rational and scientific thought. That being said; Bourbonís diet has been around for many years and has undergone challenge after challenge and is still popular. If this diet were unsound then it would have been dispelled like so many before. But because it has remained and has continued to see widespread use with almost no dietary related issues, then that can only strengthen it as a diet and make it more desirable to use, not less. Science proves nothing, and nothing is ever certain, all science ascertains is that something has failed to be disproved. So do not let anyone tell you that they have the ultimate or perfect diet; nor that their diet is proven.

Ushuaia

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#7691 - 08/22/03 03:56 AM Re: ASGS Says BML Is Harmful To Sugar Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"green"] I find it curious that there is no "middle ground" here. The fact that BML is not referred to as not the best diet but in fact harmful has certainly got my attention. [/]

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#7692 - 08/22/03 04:40 AM Re: ASGS Says BML Is Harmful To Sugar Gliders [Re: ]
DeXien Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1857
Loc: England, UK
This topic has been discussed over and over and over.. And I've not been here long at all. diet is such an important aspect of owning a sugar glider, and such a problematic one.

What it all comes down to is CHOICE. It is up to you what you feed your gliders. Period. There is no 'best' diet! If you want to choose BML, choose BML. If you want to try MacPhearson's, do so. If you want to use Briskies, do it! It's up to you what you choose, and that should be the end of it. Those who try and change/convert your mind are like those annoying religious fanatics who follow you in the street, preaching about how you're going to go to [censored] if you don't 'change your ways'... and hence, should be ignored unless they offer something with some proof behind it.

I read this somewhere else, and believe it to be true.. I'll quote it to the best of my abilities.

With exotic diets, people think that they have to bump off another proven diet in order to 'make way' for those being made. By putting down a popular diet by saying it's bad for sugar gliders, and recommending another new-on-the-market "super-feed", they have a good chance of increasing their sales. As far as I'm concerned, it's a load of tosh. You have your own independant mind.. so use it.

What it all comes down to is there is no proof behind what those people say about BML being harmful to gliders, which is why I am now choosing to defend it. It's been tested over and over, as Bourbon offers these nigglers the chance to, and it has found to be satisfactory for glider consumption many, MANY times over. It's been fed for ages with great success. It's never been proved to cause a glider's death, and HLP has been dramatically reduced amongst it's users; completely stopped, even. But! If you don't want to use it, don't. Simple as that.

Like so many things, it is about choice. I can't say that enough. Just like it's your choice to disagree with me, or completely ignore what I'm saying; I really don't mind. I'm trying to give advice, and if you think it's bad then I'm not going to take offense. Life's too short.

I hope everyone here is feeding their gliders what they as an individual think is best for them, not because 'everyone else does it'.
_________________________
Saffron -- OOP 7th April 2003-> 8th May 2013. RIP, sweetheart.

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