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#767057 - 04/18/09 08:28 PM substituting honey with applesauce- HPW
Denise
Unregistered


OK I haven't been around in a while and I just read that some people are doing this to the HPW mixture. Can anyone tell me why they are doung this?
Is it ok to make this change? I'm concerned about the ratios and I've been concerned about the amount of honey in the mixture. And how much honey and applesauce is everyone using? I'd love a little info. about this because I wonder if it could be all the honey that makes my lil ones pee stinky. Thanks!

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#767066 - 04/18/09 08:59 PM Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: ]
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
I've noticed that it seems to be a new trend as well and I'm not sure why. :\

Personally, I trust that whoever planned out the HPW diet in the first place knew what they were doing and a vet was involved in it's making(I don't know all the history of how HPW came to pass, but would love to hear it from someone who does!) and don't change a thing!

Honey isn't there just for "sugar", it's got a ton of nutrients in it. I compared honey to applesauce the other day and I *thought* the labels both looked almost the same til I saw the serving size.... The nutritional analysis for applesauce was for 1/2 cup, but the nutritional analysis for honey was for just 1 TABLESPOON! Sooo...it concerns me that people are substituting the applesauce in place of the honey because the nutritional content is completely different.

Anyways, that's just my $0.02.
_________________________
~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin

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#767096 - 04/18/09 09:33 PM Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Guerita135]
ssdreamsicles Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 05/10/07
Posts: 1871
Loc: kentucky
Id like any info on the nutritional value between the 2 if u know where to get it. I am one of th epeople that subs some apple sauce with honey. I love the diet but was very concerned with how much honey is in it. I have wanted to look into what values were exactly in what but dont know how to go about it.
_________________________
cloud9Melissa
www.treasuredgliders.com


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#767106 - 04/18/09 09:48 PM Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: ssdreamsicles]
Nurturingnest
Unregistered


I think Lauren Franco has been working with a vet regarding orplacing some of the applesauce in HPW. They are still using honey but not as much. Maybe Lauren will wander onto this thread and shed some light on the subject

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#767112 - 04/18/09 09:53 PM Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: ssdreamsicles]
debyc08
Unregistered


I also would LOVE some info. on the nutritional values. because my gang NEVER finished their fruits and sometimes their veggies(maybe half) until now. (i have made my first batch with 1/2-honey & 1/2 unsweetened applesauce.) the dishes are EMPTY every morning. and i know i am feeding the same amount each day cause i measure it each night. i wonder if its since there is less sugar or is it that now the HPW is not as fulfilling??



Edited by debyc08 (04/18/09 11:52 PM)

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#767114 - 04/18/09 09:56 PM Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: ]
ssdreamsicles Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 05/10/07
Posts: 1871
Loc: kentucky
My guys were also not eating all there Fruits or rather hardly at all until i started to sub and now they eat more fruits.
_________________________
cloud9Melissa
www.treasuredgliders.com


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#767122 - 04/18/09 10:05 PM Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: ]
Laurens_Babies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3570
Loc: Kansas City, MO
LOL oh here we go. Ok well for I think a year and a half I've been feeding HPW with either half the amount of honey required or 1 cup honey and half a cup apple sauce. Well a few months ago I started thinking along the lines of "who am I to just assume this is all good and dandy". Sure I've spoken in depth about it with my vet and he is extremely against the use of any honey what so ever. So as of now the lack of honey choice is because of discussion with other glider members and my own vet. But honestly this is not enough IMO.

It won't be completed for a few months which is why I don't talk to publicly about all of this just yet. My vet has agreed to do a very detailed analysis of all current diets. Compare it to what is felt is needed. I am trying to talk him into doing a study necropsy on a glider in the future that would die in the area. Necropsys aren't just good for finding out what has happened to the glider but are very good educational use for vets. I have a VERY capable vet who has worked in exotics for over ten years but gliders he is limited in.

Its a working progress and I feel that we should have MANY vets do their own analysis because one opinion could be different than another and not JUST ONE vet can be the deciding factor on what is best to feed. Not just my current vet, not just Suzy Q's vet , not Peter Parker's vet. We need many studies done and I'm pretty sure a few individuals are talking to their vet about this.

Ok this got a little off topic. Basically what I am saying is that I feel that Honey is completely unnessicary to be used in the quantity HPW diet calls for. I think it could VERY easily cause health issues. Do gliders eat honey in the wild?? No. Do they eat anything close in makeup?? Not from what I've been told.

So currently it is a PERSONAL CHOICE. There have been many people I suggest cutting honey down in diets. But I'm not going to sit here and say my way is so much better. And this has nothing to do with the creator of HPW or her vet or anything of that nature. It was a choice. And I AM currently working with my vet to have solid FACTS not just opinions to support my idea.


Edited by Laurens_Babies (04/18/09 10:08 PM)
_________________________
~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*

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#767124 - 04/18/09 10:06 PM Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Laurens_Babies]
Laurens_Babies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3570
Loc: Kansas City, MO
I would like to say that the day I started cutting down on honey my gliders started eating their fruits again..
_________________________
~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*

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#767130 - 04/18/09 10:19 PM Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Laurens_Babies]
Leyna
Unregistered


Quote:
So currently it is a PERSONAL CHOICE. There have been many people I suggest cutting honey down in diets. But I'm not going to sit here and say my way is so much better. And this has nothing to do with the creator of HPW or her vet or anything of that nature. It was a choice. And I AM currently working with my vet to have solid FACTS not just opinions to support my idea.


Actually, in the wild, gliders eat few fruits and vegetables and several foods that are similar to honey, such as flower nectar, tree sap, and gum...

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#767135 - 04/18/09 10:37 PM Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: ]
Laurens_Babies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3570
Loc: Kansas City, MO
I don't think that nutritionally its the same Leyna. And sap and nectar they don't eat on a regular basis. But there you go THIS is why I'm wanting to work with my vet.
_________________________
~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*

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#767140 - 04/18/09 10:53 PM Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Laurens_Babies]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
okay.. here I am, in a place I don't want to be, but feel I must add something here.

for starts.. are the diets perfect? NO... is there room for improvements? sure? but where do we start? Hmmm lets see. lets start with hmmm can't do that diet, too many people are modifying it.. how about .. lets say... nope sorry can't start there either.. people modifying it too.

so.. lets say that.... who knows where it needs to start? so lets just start picking and choosing ingredients, eventually the diets are going to be so messed up, that there will not be a standard for any of the diets to go by, and we will be right back where we started..

first you have to take the health issues.. so lets take the ones that is the most common..

giardia or other parasites

bacterial infections

swelled faces - bacterial

urinary tract infections

upper respiratory infections

obesity

pneumonia

liver issues

kidney failure

cancer/internal lumps


yep seems that they all point to honey.. NOT!!!
okay well then.. lets say that they all point to iron... NOT!!!

well then if it isn't honey, and it isn't iron, then maybe it is the corn and peas, yes that must be it, since that is what the owners of these problems all have in common.

I am just being facetious here. but the point I am trying to make is really much simpler than this.

I see this all the time, and I have seen it for years, someone gets a thought, an idea, a theory, a speculation, they tell someone else. next thing you know , it is blown so far out of proportion that it is hard to decide what is real and what isn't.

diabetes is not a big issue with gliders, how many people really test out their gliders for this? there are tests available, and so little use of it.

so what is it exactly that you are trying to accomplish with reducing the amount of honey in the HPW? (wanting your gliders to eat more veggies)? because this is what has been posted so far, so is this the judge as to whether or not this is what is wrong with this diet?

you have to ask yourself why you chose this diet in the first place.why did you choose this one and not the PML, or why not one of the other diets?

Melissa, you and I already spoke about this. changing things around because someone said this or that.. doesn't give the diet an opportunity to show whether or not there is an issue with it. If you are modifying it, then you can't say that it is the diet, or the changes that have been implemented.

Am I saying there isn't too much honey in the diet? NO, simply put, I don't know.

I do know the BML, and I can't even say what needs to be fixed there, since far too many people have already been modify it. The modifications made usually start a chain of different issues.. because then, once a change is made, later on they notice problems, so the change they made didn't work so they change something else. etc.. this continues, till the diet you started with is no where near the diet you currently use. but since you started with the diet, that is what you tell people you use..

first address the common health issues, decide what it is you are trying to accomplish. then find out, if the changes will fix it, but remember that many things can be contributing factors.

Lauren I applaud you for wanting to find out more.. but it seems to me you are working backwards, changing the diet, then testing to find out if it will fit into your theory.
_________________________
Baybe,My Roots

SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

321-331-1608

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#767147 - 04/18/09 11:05 PM Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Bourbon]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
Quote:
Sure I've spoken in depth about it with my vet and he is extremely against the use of any honey what so ever.


Quote:
Compare it to what is felt is needed.


Quote:
I think it could VERY easily cause health issues.


the more people that think this way, the more problems we will see that is diet related, not just with the honey, but with everything.
_________________________
Baybe,My Roots

SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

321-331-1608

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#767150 - 04/18/09 11:19 PM Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Bourbon]
ssdreamsicles Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 05/10/07
Posts: 1871
Loc: kentucky
Bourbon,

Yes we did talk about this. After much thought i was still concerned about the amount of honey. Im not trying to change the diet nore am i saying anything bad about the diet. I LOVE the diet but i cant help but worry about it. Am i worring over nothing? prob i tend to do that when it comes to my kids or my fur kids. I do not worry about it causing a lot of health prob but the 2 that worry me are diabetes and rotting the teeth. The teeth part im sure im worring over nothing. The other i dont know.

I agree that in changing the diet how can we say it cause the health probs. Im more worried if my glider have probs and i didnt do something to prevent it but i had my thoughts that it might be too much honey and i didnt do anything about it. I would feel bad. Sorry i know that didnt make sense.

I do think that before u go and change something u should step back and ask why do u think it needs to be changed and look into it first. I did not do this i just changed what i felt was too much honey.

How long has the HWP diet been used? Has anyone ever had a glider have health probs and it be known that it was due to to much honey like diabetes?

I do not want to start any trouble over this i just worry about my babies.
_________________________
cloud9Melissa
www.treasuredgliders.com


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#767152 - 04/18/09 11:23 PM Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Bourbon]
Laurens_Babies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3570
Loc: Kansas City, MO
Originally Posted By: Bourbon

Lauren I applaud you for wanting to find out more.. but it seems to me you are working backwards, changing the diet, then testing to find out if it will fit into your theory.



I freely admit this B. Which is why I won't change what I'm currently feeding my gliders I don't want to throw them off but I'm going to continue to pursue this on a broader more medical/factual terms. I am not an expert but I feel there are many issues needing to be addressed. So in hopes with experts and what knowledge I do bring to the table I can aid in finding out WHAT IS BEST.
I just want to clarify it isn't just honey I will be looking into. A comparison of a FULL breakdown of MANY diets compared to what is actually needed for them. I suppose the breakdown is easy, but the "what they need and what things such as :honey, iron, eggs, bee pollen, vitamins" are doing more harm than good and visa versa. Ya know? I'm not trying to pretend to be more medically aware than I am. But I do see a lot of problems peeking their heads. My first gliders lived close to their teens. But I'm scared my current ones won't. When I first started with gliders MANY YEARS AGO I fed veggies fruits and assorted versions of protein: eggs, mealworms, chicken. Very healthy til their final month of living. One died an age related death and the other died because she lost her first cage mate. Now I feed HPW.. and yet people are seeing younger and younger gliders die and the average life span is 7-8. I see a problem I took a step advised on fellow glider owners opinions. NOW I'm going to take a step back and follow thru the way I should have from the start.

All this talk about glider diets and my babies are currently barking cause I'm late with theirs. I'll bbl..
_________________________
~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*

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#767154 - 04/18/09 11:34 PM Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Laurens_Babies]
Laurens_Babies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3570
Loc: Kansas City, MO
Lets take a step back .. and look at it different...

Why USE honey?? No one has ever been able to answer me with good facts on why to use it?
_________________________
~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*

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#767165 - 04/18/09 11:54 PM Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Laurens_Babies]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
has anyone really thought about something simple?

like how many small mammals, rats, mice, guinea pigs, hamsters etc.. how their life expectancy is like a few years.. and here you have a glider.. whose life expectancy is far greater than that? why is that? people make the 7-8 year mark seem like it is tooo young for a glider to die, when in reality.. it isn't

everyone wants all the gliders to live forever, I would have loved that with Baybe.. but look in retrospect with other animals..

average life span of a dog is depending on size up to 15 years..
but reality is.. how many dogs really do live that long?
average age of a dogs life is 8-9 years at 10 they are considered OLD

rats.. for some reason seem to be pre-disposed to cancer life span, 2-3 years.. I had one live longer than that.. but in reality the majority don't make it to the 2 year mark.

all the talk about the amount of honey, but no talk about their metabolic basal rate, no talk about their energy metabolisms

these are things the basic necropsy don't show.

where does obesity come in here, where does the immune system come in here?

I am sorry.. but like I said there are many many factors to consider.

changing a diet on a whim is dangerous, if you don't like it, then switch to something you are more comfortable with.

Lauren, you said..

Quote:
My first gliders lived close to their teens. But I'm scared my current ones won't.


this makes no sense.. you were on a diet that worked for you, then you switched your diet to something you are not comfortable with, then you modify the diet, virtually unknowing what the problems are with the diet (if there is any) and then you test. the changes you make, may shorten their life span, but your not concerned because you made the change you "THINK" could extend their life span..

ever think that again many factors could be playing various roles.. lack of flight time, lack of turpor, lack of proper bodily movements that could increase their life, lessen the obesity, and overall, give you a healthier glider? Look at things like over feeding, over breeding confinement, lack of foraging opportunities for various things, Genetics, over handling/by humans, the human environments, pesticides on foods, etc....

now since the changes in the diet seem to be centered around the honey, what exactly are you looking for as to the changes..

melissa, have you tested your gliders for diabetes before you made the change? are your gliders have dental issues?

if you look at the few less than 10 gliders that have dental issues, has everything been looked at to eliminate the possible contributing factors? what could affect teeth? what could cause infections in the mouth, what could cause a bacterial infection?

_________________________
Baybe,My Roots

SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

321-331-1608

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#767182 - 04/19/09 12:14 AM Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Bourbon]
ssdreamsicles Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 05/10/07
Posts: 1871
Loc: kentucky
No I did not test my glider before hand as none of my glider have probs. I cut the honey in hopes of not having probs.

None of my glider have dental probs.

I guess im looking at this from human standards. Too much sugar and things like that can cause us to have a cavity or rot our teeth.

Mabey i do need to step back and look at other factors. Do glider break foods down diff? When u break the honey down in the diet how much are they really getting? 1 1/2 cups seems like a lot but what are they really getting per night per glider?

There are a lot of things to cinsider and i see this. Like i said before i guess i am trying to fix a prob before it happens.

But i really am interested in a study that shows there is no harm in it and what honey brings to the diet. I understand the bee pollen, hpw powder and egg but what is the honey really doing?

I do ask please do not pass judgment on me and think me a bad person. I am just interested in my glider health.
_________________________
cloud9Melissa
www.treasuredgliders.com


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#767184 - 04/19/09 12:16 AM Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: ssdreamsicles]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
Quote:

I do ask please do not pass judgment on me and think me a bad person. I am just interested in my glider health.


you met me, you know that is not the case here.. love ya girl.. but i love your babies too..
_________________________
Baybe,My Roots

SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

321-331-1608

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#767185 - 04/19/09 12:17 AM Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Laurens_Babies]
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
Here's something to think about...

If gliders suddenly start eating their fruits/veggies after to substitute some of the honey for applesauce then doesn't it make you wonder why they're suddenly eating something that they were only picking at before?

I mean, if the gliders were healthy and active before, but weren't eating their fruits and veggies then don't you think it's safe to say that they were getting everything that they needed from what little they were eating?

Animals know when they've gotten what they needed and they don't gorge themselves(okay, there ARE a few that will, lol. I've got some that would eat mealies til the end of days if they could! roflmao ). They eat only what they need, whether that be 1 tablesppon of food or 5 tablespoons.

Why does it matter WHERE they're getting their nutrition(whether that be fruits/veggies or honey) just so long as they are actually getting it?

I agree with Bourbon. So many people are changing around "approved diets" before they even give the diets a chance. And most people simply see someone else making the changes and think "ooo...I'll try that too!" and NOT based on the recommendation of a vet!

Lauren, have you only talked to your one vet? Personally, I would talk to multiple vets and get multiple opinions before changing anything around. As we all know from being in the glider community for even a week: vet's don't always know best! I once called a VERY highly-recommended exotic vet in IL(Midwest Bird and Exotic Animal vet...or something like that...) and they asked me if I wanted the gliders' teeth filed?! :o Another vet told me to feed cat food!

There have been NUMEROUS vets that have looked at HPW(whether at a glance or a bit more in-depth) and given it their approval when owners bring in their gliders and asked their vets about HPW. Why start changing things around based solely on the opinion of one vet and his unfounded hatred of honey?
_________________________
~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin

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#767186 - 04/19/09 12:18 AM Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Bourbon]
prettyinpink
Unregistered


Melissa if you don't mind me asking... what were your babies on that lived to their teens? What diet I mean.

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#767193 - 04/19/09 12:33 AM Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Bourbon]
gliderma Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5402
Loc: Michigan
I must be really lucky! I have 13 healthy gliders all on HPW as it was originally intended and they eat well everynight! Sure, some nights the plate is licked clean and others there's some leftovers, but all in all they seem to be very happy with what they get. The amount of honey is not excessive in my opinion. It's not like they are getting that all in one night! It's actually very little that they get in each serving over time. Just thought I'd share how lucky I feel to be using HPW successfully.
_________________________
Lynn Martel
616-272-4374
989-400-5686

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#767199 - 04/19/09 12:47 AM Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: gliderma]
Laurens_Babies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3570
Loc: Kansas City, MO
Originally Posted By: gliderma
I must be really lucky! I have 13 healthy gliders all on HPW as it was originally intended and they eat well everynight! Sure, some nights the plate is licked clean and others there's some leftovers, but all in all they seem to be very happy with what they get. The amount of honey is not excessive in my opinion. It's not like they are getting that all in one night! It's actually very little that they get in each serving over time. Just thought I'd share how lucky I feel to be using HPW successfully.


But how long have you been feeding that?? This is the stuff I've been talking about. B since your the #1 source on BML how long ago did you introduce it to the community? HPW has only been fed for what?? 2-3 years?? We don't know its long term effects.

Bourbon when I was feeding very basic diets I was not breeding and I was not in this community. I felt to breed I needed to search for a better diet.

sleep sleep sleep
Oh my how bored am I of having this same fight over and over again. Look guys I got dragged into this thread by name and I thought I would come and share my opinions. I don't force my way upon others I do what I can to consult vets. And there is me and many others who breed and cut honey down in their diets. And won't admit it openly because of this same old diet fight. I'm not talking about feeding BML and taking out the vitamins and baby food and calling it BML, I'm talking about reducing the amount of honey REDUCING.

Yes Nicole I think MANY vets should be in on this but hey guess what I've said this all ready haven't I?

sleep
I've got a lot on my plate right now so I'm going to remove myself from this topic. I'll ttyl!!!!!


Edited by Laurens_Babies (04/19/09 12:48 AM)
_________________________
~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*

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#767206 - 04/19/09 01:08 AM Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Laurens_Babies]
sandbat Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 633
Loc: Dallas, TX
I started the applesauce substitution for 1/2 cup of honey just this week because one of my babies is kind of getting "fluffy." I'd heard others recommend it, and was told it didn't upset the calcium:phosphorus ratio at all.

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#767225 - 04/19/09 02:05 AM Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Laurens_Babies]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
_________________________
Baybe,My Roots

SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

321-331-1608

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#767228 - 04/19/09 02:07 AM Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: gliderma]
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: gliderma
I must be really lucky! I have 13 healthy gliders all on HPW as it was originally intended and they eat well everynight! Sure, some nights the plate is licked clean and others there's some leftovers, but all in all they seem to be very happy with what they get. The amount of honey is not excessive in my opinion. It's not like they are getting that all in one night! It's actually very little that they get in each serving over time. Just thought I'd share how lucky I feel to be using HPW successfully.


We must be lucky too because we've got almost 30 adult gliders, ALL of which are healthy(only once Milky Way had the sniffles because he got sick from the puppy...or so the vet thinks) as well as 14 healthy joeys so far and 2 more healthy ones on the way! grin

Sandbat, gliders don't just need calcium and phosphorus to survive, so just becuse they're getting the right cal:phos ratio doesn't mean that they're getting everything that they need. That's why I think ghtat people need to talk to their vets(as well as consult with others) before changing their diet rather then just changing it because they "heard others recommend it". People recommend feeding pellets as a diet all the time and feeding cat food, but that doesn't make it right. See what I mean?

Why try and fix something that has shown no signs of being broken?
_________________________
~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin

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#767232 - 04/19/09 02:14 AM Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Guerita135]
Nicki Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 323
Loc: Twin Lakes, WI
I'm really glad this thread was started...

Thanks Bourbon for that info on Honey - I see it in a different light now smile
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#767298 - 04/19/09 09:56 AM Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Nicki]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
I have been researching glider diets for months. I have entered data on foods used to make all the recognized glider diets into an Excel spreadsheet that has formulas to evaluate the foods combined in each diet - and also can bu used to evaluate any changes made to the recipes to see the nutritional changes.

Here are the results per glider serving (for those who have asked)if you change the HPW recipe to include 1 cup Honey with 3/4 cup applesauce rather than 1 3/4 cup Honey. It really does not change the sugar content much if that is the goal.

with Apl HPW
Calcium mg 7.49 5.98
Phosphorus mg 8.31 6.58
Ratio 0.9:1 0.9:1
protein mg 0.5 0.40
Sugar mg 3.25 3.57
Fat mg 0.2 0.16
fiber mg 0.11 0.07

(Sorry if the columns do not line up)

The Excel file can be used to see the nutrients in each of the recognized diets combined with the fruits and vegetables offered to see the total value of the meal.

Check my diet Calculator
http://hstrial-cotte1.homestead.com/references.html

I hope many folks will find this useful to see how their fruit and vegetable choices match with their chosen recognized diet.

Personally, I am using a blended diet that contains all the ingredients of BML except Wheat Germ and the reptile vitamins and uses HWP powder, bee pollen and a human grade calcium carbonate powder supplements. The combination puts all of the nutrient values mid-range between BML and HPW diets values. That would be a topic for another thread.
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& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#767300 - 04/19/09 10:08 AM Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Nicki]
Srlb Online   grin
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16757
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
HPW has only been fed for what?? 2-3 years??


Actually, I have been feeding the HPW for going on 5-1/2 years now. I have personally NEVER had ANY health issues regarding diet and I have only had one death and that was Bug due to a Urinary Bladder infection. When the necrospy was done on her, Dr.Tristan did not see ANYTHING going on with her internal organs, and we had to send tissue samples out to find out her cause of death.

I will NOT sit here and *defend* a diet. If any or all of you wish to change it around because YOU dont feel comfortable with it, I say go for it....they are your gliders....

Now for the applesauce thing...I have seen so many different *stories* on WHY it has gotten changed...let me share a little something with you all, and if you dont believe me, go ask Alicia...

The way that applesauce ever came into play is because Alicia RAN OUT OF HONEY!!! It was going to be a substitution for that one time. Her gliders ate it, they loved it, so she stuck with it and she felt ok with it. I will say that yes I did try it once, yes my gliders DID like it, they DID eat more fruit and then I thought....so what? I talked to Tristan about it, he said why fix something that is not broken??? He was right, so after that one batch with applesauce, I am back feeding it the original way my gliders have had it for YEARS with NO illnesses.

Now, with that being said, I DID have to go get in a rescue that was being fed nothing but applesauce, and guess what....it was given to Tristan by the animal control because it had an abscess in its gums that needed to be drained....

Yes, using the applesauce is cheaper, as we all know that honey is the most expensive part of a diet, and yes, they will eat more fruits, so you arent really saving money if you are having to buy more in fruits...so all it tells me is my gliders are getting what they need from their HPW and dont need anything from fruits...

Everyone has to feed what YOU feel comfortable feeding YOUR gliders. Until someone can show me DOCUMENTED PROOF from a veterinarian STUDY that shows that the amount of honey is too much, me and my gliders will stick to the diet that they have been on most of their lives.

For those of you who are going to try to find others to help you do your studies, good luck with it, as I have noticed too many times now, people like to sit and complain and *Think* They know what the issues are but when asked to help find the REAL cause, nobody comes up to the plate...
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#767304 - 04/19/09 10:10 AM Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Srlb]
Srlb Online   grin
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16757
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
1 3/4 cup Honey


It should only be 1-1/2 cup honey....


So your numbers are not correct.

Quote:
Personally, I am using a blended diet that contains all the ingredients of BML except Wheat Germ and the reptile vitamins and uses HWP powder, bee pollen and a human grade calcium carbonate powder supplements. The combination puts all of the nutrient values mid-range between BML and HPW diets values. That would be a topic for another thread.


Additional calcium does not need to be added when using the HPW powder.

I have had several sets of xrays done and blood work done on my gliders, of all ages, and their bone density is always excellent. Using too much calcium can be an issue as well.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#767305 - 04/19/09 10:14 AM Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: CandyOtte]
DirtyPaws Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 1823
Loc: Wichita Falls, Texas
Ok, the recipe I have for HPW calls for 1 1/2 C honey. Is 1 3/4 what's correct? Or did I get a modified version with my HPW powder?

I'm not interested in changing anything from the original formula at the time. I'm just watching this thread for my own personal knowledge as I feed HPW.

Thank you Candy for the calculator. As soon as I figure how to get the softwear to work I will be using it to make sure I'm feeding all the fruits & veggies properly together.

Although, one of my cages is of 4, so I really have to watch to see if someone is skipping one or more food items altogether. shakehead
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