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#774214 - 05/03/09 02:29 PM Original Leadbeater's diet Questions
Snoopurr Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/29/08
Posts: 386
Loc: West Babylon, NY
What was the original leadbeater's diet modified to BML? What was the purpose? How is the 3:1 ratio in BML more beneficial for gliders then the 2:1 ratio in HPW. Would you say that the 3:1 ratio would cause more gliders to gain more weight then if the ratio was 2:1?? What could be modified in the BML recipe to make it have a 2:1 ratio?

I understand the BML should NOT be change, that no substitutions should be introduced. However, my gliders are extremely overweight from eating the full bml diet plan. My vet gave me the original recipe for leadbeaters today and i'm trying to figure out what to do. She wants me to use all of the ingredients from bml, but use less honey, yogurt juice, and apple juice to cut out some of the sugars. Then dilute it with 150 ml of water like the original recipe calls for.

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#774669 - 05/04/09 12:04 PM Re: Original Leadbeater's diet Questions [Re: Snoopurr]
IowaMisty Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 1228
Loc: USA
I'm not sure what you mean when you say 3:1 ratio for BML. Everyone recommends 1.5-2:1 ratio of calcium:phosphorous. Is that what you're talking about? That is for all diets. BML is no different.

Here's the original Leadbeaters developed by the Taronga Zoo, with a few comments about how it's fed:
http://www.sweet-sugar-gliders.com/original-leadbeaters-diet-recipe.html

I believe it has been modified by different people, to make it more practical for the average pet owner to feed. Some of the Leadbeater's ingredients can't even be found in the US and if you look at the substitutes for them, I'd say this recipe much more closely resembles HPW.

I'm no expert on glider weight loss...maybe someone else can comment on that. I think I would take the vet's advice though if he/she is glider knowledgeable. I have heard some will cut down on the honey in HPW when their glider is overweight.

Also, are you feeding a lot of treats? Mealies can be very fattening. Cutting back on treats may help too.

Good luck,
Misty

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#774787 - 05/04/09 04:20 PM Re: Original Leadbeater's diet Questions [Re: IowaMisty]
Marz Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 708
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Originally Posted By: IowaMisty


Here's the original Leadbeaters developed by the Taronga Zoo, with a few comments about how it's fed:
http://www.sweet-sugar-gliders.com/original-leadbeaters-diet-recipe.html

The original leadbeater's nectar mix was not developed by Taronga Zoo.It was only that their version of the diet for squirrel gliders was put up on the net back in the 1990's.

The diet on that link is very old (they haven't fed day old chicks in 10 years) and not the correct recipe. Vionate powder has never been a part of the Taronga zoo nectar mix.

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#774812 - 05/04/09 04:52 PM Re: Original Leadbeater's diet Questions [Re: Marz]
IowaMisty Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 1228
Loc: USA
If you believe my recipe to be incorrect or outdated, I will certainly take a look at it. I copied the recipe from another site which I believed to be reputable and have made adjustments based on suggestions from other GC members already. No one ever mentioned to me that it was outdated. Can you PM me the recipe you have for Original Leadbeater's, along with your source?

Thanks,
Misty

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#774876 - 05/04/09 06:12 PM Re: Original Leadbeater's diet Questions [Re: IowaMisty]
Snoopurr Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/29/08
Posts: 386
Loc: West Babylon, NY
yes, i was referring to the calcuim: phosphorus ratio. I was told that its 3:1 in bml, and i am aware that recommended is 2:1 which is why i was asking these questions. I think the true answers need to come from Bourbon himself. I would send him a PM however, his pm mail box is full......

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#774885 - 05/04/09 06:26 PM Re: Original Leadbeater's diet Questions [Re: Snoopurr]
minkasmom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 5965
Loc: Northeast Indiana
You might be interested in learning this: Bourbon is a "she" not a he. blush
_________________________
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Slave to:
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5 cats,
and ONE husband (can't handle two, lol!)
gangel Remembering all my lost loves cry

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#774933 - 05/04/09 07:21 PM Re: Original Leadbeater's diet Questions [Re: minkasmom]
happygypsymoth Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 07/24/08
Posts: 409
Loc: Navarre, Florida
Originally Posted By: minkasmom
You might be interested in learning this: Bourbon is a "she" not a he. blush



roflmao roflmao roflmao
_________________________
Our pack of 14:
2 Humans,5 Chihuahuas,7 Suggies(the Suggies definately rule!)
RIP Grace 12/12/12 Harmony 1/17/13 Turbo & Everest 2014
Forever Gliding High, together!

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#774935 - 05/04/09 07:31 PM Re: Original Leadbeater's diet Questions [Re: happygypsymoth]
Snoopurr Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/29/08
Posts: 386
Loc: West Babylon, NY
who knew?

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#774943 - 05/04/09 07:52 PM Re: Original Leadbeater's diet Questions [Re: Snoopurr]
DeeDancer Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 1035
Loc: Las Vegas, NV/Columbus, OH
Her number is in her signature, you could call her to ask.
_________________________
~Deanna~
Chinchillas: Luke, Yoda, and Pronk
Gliders: Nika, Ranger, and DeeGee

(702)250-5236

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#776063 - 05/06/09 07:19 PM Re: Original Leadbeater's diet Questions [Re: DeeDancer]
blockamon Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 07/14/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Lynchburg, VA
Just FYI, the HPW mix is just slightly above 1:1 Ca:P by itself. You have to use fruits and veggies to bump it higher (although fruits and veggies aren't don't really have a lot of calcium).

P.S. This is not a knock on the HPW diet, just an observation.

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#776522 - 05/07/09 03:33 PM Re: Original Leadbeater's diet Questions [Re: blockamon]
khyricat
Unregistered


btw- BML is higher in CA:PH than recommended IF you look at just the mix, thats why it is served with negative ca:ph fruits and veggies.

gliders need a 1-2:1 ratio...according to every vet I've talked to, most of the boards say the 2:1, but I've seen some people saying 1.5:1.. it depends on who you ask.. we really don't know what is ideal.. and even with humans there are ranges on nutritional needs depending on activity level, over all health and genetics..

Amie the human dietetics student..

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#776793 - 05/08/09 12:37 AM Re: Original Leadbeater's diet Questions [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
The BML mix is higher in Calcium (to phosphrous) to accomodate higher phosphrous foods like corn and peas that are part of the over all diet plan. When fed as a complete diet plan, it balances out to approximately 2:1. That is why the diet is very specific on the fruits and vegies that are served with it.

BML was created because the original Leadbeaters diet contained food items not available in the US.
_________________________
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I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#776812 - 05/08/09 01:56 AM Re: Original Leadbeater's diet Questions [Re: Snoopurr]
BelladonnasMom
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Snoopurr
yes, i was referring to the calcuim: phosphorus ratio. I was told that its 3:1 in bml, and i am aware that recommended is 2:1 which is why i was asking these questions. I think the true answers need to come from Bourbon himself. I would send him a PM however, his pm mail box is full......


Was I the one who told you that? I told someone recently and can't remember who. LOL

Yes, Dancing is correct. The Ca:P ratio of JUST the BML staple is 3:1 to allow for the veggie list provided to balance it to 2:1 correctly. Used as written, Bourbon's BML is a nutritionally balanced diet. But you HAVE to follow it exactly wink

There was a discussion at the SGR, by a well known and well respected vet (Dr. Tristan) that explained why the original Leadbeaters diet wouldn't be good to feed our sugar gliders. When you go down the line of an animal species (Species-genus-family-order). There are several animals in the order containing sugar gliders. Sugar gliders are the LEAST like the others in that order, and the others are all closely related, and all possums I believe. The original Leadbeaters was designed for Leadbeater POSSUMS. Therefore it was necessary to change up the diet to make it suitable for our sugar babies.

I think that's right... it IS late! LOL

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#777085 - 05/08/09 05:05 PM Re: Original Leadbeater's diet Questions [Re: ]
Marz Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 708
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Originally Posted By: BelladonnasMom


There was a discussion at the SGR, by a well known and well respected vet (Dr. Tristan) that explained why the original Leadbeaters diet wouldn't be good to feed our sugar gliders. When you go down the line of an animal species (Species-genus-family-order). There are several animals in the order containing sugar gliders. Sugar gliders are the LEAST like the others in that order, and the others are all closely related, and all possums I believe. The original Leadbeaters was designed for Leadbeater POSSUMS. Therefore it was necessary to change up the diet to make it suitable for our sugar babies.


Actually the leadbeaters possum is quite unusual member of the possum family being considered closely related to the petaurus family and reliant on carbohydrate rich nectar and sap as well as insects. Many people liken the leadbeater possum to a glider that just doesn't have a patagium! It is believed to represent the fore running, non glding nectar/insectivorous type from which the Lesser gliders ( genus petaurus) arose. Don't forget also gliders are indeed possums too.

Whilst nectar mixes have been given a few names over the years, incuding "leadbeaters" mix or even possum mix, they have more recently been renamed generally under the terms, artificial nectar mix because they are fed across a number of native species that need a nectar option in their diet. I have recipes for glider nectar mixes that pre-dates leadbeaters mix which include honey/water/cereal and ahh egg. Sound familiar? Just because someone fed this mixture to leadbeaters possum and nicknamed it leadbeaters mix, doesn't mean it wasn't around earlier or that is only suitable or developed for that one species.

In one diet I have found, there is a combo of two nectar mixes served on different nights. I have another "original" leadbeaters mix without egg yolk and another nectar mix that has milk added!! I have nectar mixes dated back to 1930's which include jam or honey,water and cereal. However, amongst all the diets there is always the nectar mix in some form offered which generally means despite the experimentation over decades and decades, a nectar mix is something that has been maintained as part of a sugar glider diet despite other changes.


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#777105 - 05/08/09 06:29 PM Re: Original Leadbeater's diet Questions [Re: Marz]
anjill_tree Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 04/21/09
Posts: 712
Loc: Red Oak Texas
Whewwww, I do judie's BML, fruits, veggies every nite. Mealworms every am. Yoggie treat Mon Wed Fri, Gliderade Mon Wed Fri nite. And lots of play time for exercise. They eat most of their food. Very little is wasted, most of the time. I was doing what looked like Jdies but had oatmeal added to it, but, judy said it threw off the ratio, so I went back to hers.
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#777113 - 05/08/09 06:57 PM Re: Original Leadbeater's diet Questions [Re: anjill_tree]
sweetheart26 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 07/12/07
Posts: 3305
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: anjill_tree
Whewwww, I do judie's BML, fruits, veggies every nite. Mealworms every am. Yoggie treat Mon Wed Fri, Gliderade Mon Wed Fri nite. And lots of play time for exercise. They eat most of their food. Very little is wasted, most of the time. I was doing what looked like Jdies but had oatmeal added to it, but, judy said it threw off the ratio, so I went back to hers.
I also use Judie's BML! ITs really simple too make.
_________________________





mom to sugar gliders storm,thunder,lighting,snowball,rosebud,winter,string,summer fall and sweet.




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#777262 - 05/08/09 11:21 PM Re: Original Leadbeater's diet Questions [Re: Marz]
BelladonnasMom
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Marz

Actually the leadbeaters possum is quite unusual member of the possum family being considered closely related to the petaurus family and reliant on carbohydrate rich nectar and sap as well as insects. Many people liken the leadbeater possum to a glider that just doesn't have a patagium! It is believed to represent the fore running, non glding nectar/insectivorous type from which the Lesser gliders ( genus petaurus) arose. Don't forget also gliders are indeed possums too.



I was so tired last night when I posted that and left out a tiny piece of info maybe you can shed some light on Marz. When Dr. Tristan was talking about the diet and relationships within the order, he was talking about something to do with their teeth. How many they have and what that signifies about their relationship. And I seriously did not know that our babies were actually possums. You learn something new every day...

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