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#781472 - 05/19/09 10:59 PM Who determined the calcium-phosphorus ratio?
Wiggly
Unregistered


I'm just wondering where the ratio came from. All over the place, I see the ratio re-iterated. 1.5-2.0:1.0 That's the ratio. It's everywhere and everyone "knows" it. But what research determined it? How was it determined? Was it determined by comparison to other species, or by looking specifically at gliders? Was it determined by a zoo, by a laboratory environment, by owners recording what they were feeding and telling their vets?

It's just been bugging me for awhile and I hope someone can answer.

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#781497 - 05/20/09 12:13 AM Re: Who determined the calcium-phosphorus ratio? [Re: ]
TNinaT
Unregistered


As is this question has yet to be tackled so I'm taking a stab at it. Like you (or so I'm gathering) I like clear facts and scientific proof for all things medical. My back ground is veterinary medicine however this DOES NOT make me a veterinarian but an able researcher of medical journals. A quick search and this is what I have gathered for you...

Ca:P ratios are typically calculated and tested in performance/growth/production studies. I have learned from my undergrad that Ca:P tend to be fairly close from species to species but like all thing natural there are exceptions to the rule. For example:

In Cows: "ratios between 1:1 and 7:1 gave similar and satisfactory results."

In humans "The 1.7:1 ratio allowed for the highest absolute retention of both minerals"

While Calcium and Phosphorous are vital nutrients of most all living animals, including humans, debateably their most important role is played in bone mineralization and mineral retention and there for greatly studied as such (their functions are by no means limits to just the mentioned above.

I have tried to find a medical journal with a Glider specific article that I could link here for you. This is the best I could do: Journal of Exotic Pet Medicine Which at least gives the bibliographic information and abstract. Access to the article would require a trip to the library to inquire about this issue- Sorry.

I hope this helps.

Nina

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#781498 - 05/20/09 12:18 AM Re: Who determined the calcium-phosphorus ratio? [Re: ]
TNinaT
Unregistered


OH I was going to give an example of an exception to the rule:

Red Sea Bream Which is a type a fish and there ratios is actually revers of most. Their are ratio is 1:2 Ca:P- Which I find interesting!

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#781582 - 05/20/09 09:28 AM Re: Who determined the calcium-phosphorus ratio? [Re: ]
Wiggly
Unregistered


While I *definitely* appreciate your help, that article is from 2006 and I can find references to the 2:1 ratio going back to early 2003. Even though I'm sure the library could find me access to it (or one of my friends in university could find me access to it), I suspect that it would just tell me what the ratio of various diets was and not who determined the "correct" ratio.

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#781734 - 05/20/09 04:03 PM Re: Who determined the calcium-phosphorus ratio? [Re: ]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
I can't tell you where it originally came from, but there has been quite a bit of research done on Australian marsupials and I imagine it came from there. There are many resources that discuss the nutrition of Sugar Gliders. One that comes to mind immediately is Ian Hume's Marsupial Nutrition which was published in 1999.
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#781746 - 05/20/09 04:29 PM Re: Who determined the calcium-phosphorus ratio? [Re: sugarlope]
DeeDancer Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 1035
Loc: Las Vegas, NV/Columbus, OH
I have access to that particular article and am reading it now...it is very long. I will let you know if it is of any use in answering your question once I am finished reading it.
_________________________
~Deanna~
Chinchillas: Luke, Yoda, and Pronk
Gliders: Nika, Ranger, and DeeGee

(702)250-5236

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#781751 - 05/20/09 04:46 PM Re: Who determined the calcium-phosphorus ratio? [Re: DeeDancer]
DeeDancer Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 1035
Loc: Las Vegas, NV/Columbus, OH
I just read the acknowledgments for the diet study mentioned in that article, and it seems that I really don't NEED to read the article and let you know if it helps, as people linked to GC were INVOLVED in that particular study. Hopefully they will be able to answer your question smile
_________________________
~Deanna~
Chinchillas: Luke, Yoda, and Pronk
Gliders: Nika, Ranger, and DeeGee

(702)250-5236

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#781758 - 05/20/09 05:07 PM Re: Who determined the calcium-phosphorus ratio? [Re: DeeDancer]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
This article, written in 1997 (article about insectivores) briefly mentions a 1.5:1 to 2:1) ratio as being good.

http://www.nagonline.net/Technical%20Papers/NAGFS00397Insects-JONIFEB24,2002MODIFIED.pdf

These ratios have been considered appropriate for many, many years. You would need to go back and search for articles relating to marsupials and insectivores. Most will be found in books, not online. As I said, there have been many studies done on marsupials, insectivores and sugar gliders specifically to determine appropriate nutritional needs. You may also want to contact one or more of the Australian zoos to ask them about it.
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#781760 - 05/20/09 05:13 PM Re: Who determined the calcium-phosphorus ratio? [Re: sugarlope]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
Deanna - I just quickly read over the acknowledgments and I didn't see any mention of Glider Central or GC affiliates, which page was that information on?
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#781768 - 05/20/09 05:25 PM Re: Who determined the calcium-phosphorus ratio? [Re: sugarlope]
DeeDancer Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 1035
Loc: Las Vegas, NV/Columbus, OH
The article I was referring to was the one posted by TNinaT to the Journal of Exotic Pet Medicine. I have access to the Journal of Exotic Pet Medicine, so I looked up the article she linked to and it was basically the write up of the diet study conducted a few years ago. In the acknowledgments section at the very end of the article, it specifically thanked Lisa of Suncoast, Tom Havens, and Ellen.
_________________________
~Deanna~
Chinchillas: Luke, Yoda, and Pronk
Gliders: Nika, Ranger, and DeeGee

(702)250-5236

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#781770 - 05/20/09 05:30 PM Re: Who determined the calcium-phosphorus ratio? [Re: DeeDancer]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
Ok, thank you Deanna - yes GC helped out with that. We have the diet study posted here somewhere.

Wiggly is looking for something older than that, I think. dunno
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#781771 - 05/20/09 05:34 PM Re: Who determined the calcium-phosphorus ratio? [Re: sugarlope]
DeeDancer Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 1035
Loc: Las Vegas, NV/Columbus, OH
Yeah, I just thought since she posted the link that I might check it out-it doesn't really answer the original question.

I am also interested in finding out who originally determined the ratios, so hopefully someone knows.
_________________________
~Deanna~
Chinchillas: Luke, Yoda, and Pronk
Gliders: Nika, Ranger, and DeeGee

(702)250-5236

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#781774 - 05/20/09 05:48 PM Re: Who determined the calcium-phosphorus ratio? [Re: sugarlope]
TNinaT
Unregistered


I was just trying to demonstrate that these studies are pretty common in the medical world and yes they are species specific. It would be neat to see the "original" study but to do so one would need access to a science library.

Originally Posted By: sugarlope

You may also want to contact one or more of the Australian zoos to ask them about it.


Agreed. Great suggestion.

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#782006 - 05/21/09 09:06 AM Re: Who determined the calcium-phosphorus ratio? [Re: ]
IowaMisty Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 1228
Loc: USA
I'm not sure how all of this came about or who did the studies, but I would also like to just note that many people have now had gliders as pets for years and I've heard lots of "trial & error" type stories. It's been noticed that too low of a ratio leads to hind leg paralysis and too much leads to other problems. There seems to be great success with long-lived healthy gliders when the ratio is in the 1.5-2:1 range. I'm no expert on this....just have been observing from people's stories.

Misty

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#782331 - 05/21/09 08:23 PM Re: Who determined the calcium-phosphorus ratio? [Re: IowaMisty]
khyricat
Unregistered


the information I have comes from Ian Hume's research (Marsupial Nutrition and Marsupials are both by him).

I do know that phosphorous levels impact calcium absorption in any living being (human or animal). I also know iron levels and vit c levels do as well. but these have other impacts that we KNOW of in gliders..

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