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#787058 - 05/31/09 09:43 PM PML / HPW protein amounts
Pockets Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 2092
Loc: Lone Star State
I am asking those who fed my 'PML' Pocket's Modified Leadbeater's
- which I created after much research into Des Hackett's original Leadbeater's Mix - to keep it as is.
Yes pollens, acacia gums, etc are fine just watch amounts(I previously & purposly removed one egg from Des's Leadbeater's mixture)

I am worried & have been worried, about the possibility of glider's getting too much cholestrol& protein from the egg yolks as I have research which states this has been occasionally observed in captive animals & it may explain some of the fatty tumors (called xanthomas) occasionally observed in captive animals in Australia.(this is not a new study - I have written about this in the past on GC)

Peggy (hugs) & her veterinarian changed the 'PML' into 'HPW' (sp?) by adding pollen, extra eggs & extra Wombaroo amounts - this concerned me as I believe glider's are possibly consuming to much protein with the 'HPW' mixture - as many also feed extra eggs, insects, chicken, etc.. as well as other protein sources & add more vitamins as Ellen Dierenfeld states below - (certainly wish she would of had a chance to look at my 'PML')

I have no problem with changing Wombaroo High Protein amount seasonally for breeding glider's but
PLEASE 'DO NOT' fed year round as it is just too much protein & think long & hard about the extra eggs!


Ellen Dierenfeld May 2009 research -

Sugar Glider
_________________________
:grey: We will be known forever by the tracks we leave :grey:
http://www.marsupialsociety.org

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#787361 - 06/01/09 02:25 PM Re: PML / HPW protein amounts [Re: Pockets]
IowaMisty Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 1228
Loc: USA
This is really interesting, Pockets. Do you have any opinion on maybe using Egg Beaters in the HPW in place of one or all of the eggs, to reduce the cholesterol? We don't give a lot of protein treats to our gliders. That's partially because we are breeding & we feel that the males don't really need any more protein when we're feeding the breeder version of HPW (although we do sometimes feed extra mealies to our female).

Do you suppose there's a free way for us to read that article you linked to? It looks like it costs $31.50 to read the full article. Maybe I'll do it just because I'm really interested, but I don't know if it'll actually have enough info in it to be worth it.

Misty

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#787681 - 06/02/09 09:26 AM Re: PML / HPW protein amounts [Re: IowaMisty]
Pockets Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 2092
Loc: Lone Star State
Hello Misty,
Egg Beater's certainly could be looked at as a possibilty - like your kind of thinking!

Have been looking through some veterinary records, reports & research which has just recently been sent to me from a dear friend in Australia & what I see from these reports have convinced me that adding a little 'Wombaroo Possum Milk Replacer' to my 'Pocket's Modified Leadbeater's Mixture' would be quite beneficial- I will post when recommended amount is known.

Would just love to have a subscription to VetClinics but I believe it is around &200 yearly if a student(?) have contacted a couple of students (lol) - not sure if Ellen's article would have enough information YET - I'm sure that several here will be keeping an eagle eye out!

I have spoken with the zoo nutritionist Ellen Dierenfeld in the past regarding the BML mixture & other diet's, at that time she was at the Bronz Zoological park - will see if I can reach her again, but thought her research info may be helpful to others.
_________________________
:grey: We will be known forever by the tracks we leave :grey:
http://www.marsupialsociety.org

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#787776 - 06/02/09 02:37 PM Re: PML / HPW protein amounts [Re: Pockets]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
It is great to see you posting again, Debbie! hug2 Thank you for sharing your ideas and thinking on this, as I know a lot of people have started feeding the HPW diet. I am always interested to hear what you have been learning! smile
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#787831 - 06/02/09 04:10 PM Re: PML / HPW protein amounts [Re: sugarlope]
IowaMisty Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 1228
Loc: USA
Yeah I'm definitely interested in anything you find out.

As far as the Egg Beaters go, I'm not sure how the nutritional value compares to regular eggs. Like they may be lower in protein or something. I'm not sure. But that would be something to look into if the cholesterol in regular eggs is high enough in the overall diet to be a concern.

Misty

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#787833 - 06/02/09 04:13 PM Re: PML / HPW protein amounts [Re: sugarlope]
Lynsie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 8329
Loc: Quincy, IL 62305
Do you have any proof to back your theory up? I have been feeding HPW for over 3 years now and all my gliders are healthy. I have not even heard of any gliders on HPW getting fatty tumors or any diet related illnesses for that matter. Even the gliders that have had liver issues were on BML not HPW.

You also state ont he PML recipe that it's only half of your gliders diet. What is the other half?
_________________________
Lynsie,
LuckyYou Gliders


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#788000 - 06/02/09 10:01 PM Re: PML / HPW protein amounts [Re: Lynsie]
Pockets Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 2092
Loc: Lone Star State
Thanks for the welcome all

Lynsie it isn't my theory, what I stated comes from an author & friend who has many years under his belt of field research in Australia & the surrounding Islands He also has several publications.
I am pleased that it has not become a problem but I certainly wouldn't say it couldn't become one, & certainly take his research seriously - this is why I am warning people here & have in the past!

I have also plugged another Australian friends works here on GC way back in 1999 (lol)
Ian Humes 'Marsupial Nutrition',
& his 1982 - 'Digestive physiology and nutrition of marsupials',
& as well as his 'Possums and Glider's 1984



If you look into Ellen Dierenfeld's research - one of if not the top Zoological Nurtitionist in the USA- she continues assisting animals nutritional requirements in captivity - There is much to be learned - she wrote an excellent article on Figs quite a few years ago - but I have files on her research!

Since you are talking with the person who originally had the Wombaroo High Protein Supplement imported into the USA thru Geoff ( I had to go thru the only Wombaroo dealer in the USA years ago) & then I incorporated it into My Pocket's modified Leadbeater's mixture (thank you Des) & have been feeding it for much longer than yourself - I personally didn't figure that it was the end of my research into learning more about sugar glider's nutrition requirements.

I am very happy so many glider's are doing well using the Wombaroo High Protein Supplement - that is exactly why I brought the information & Des Hackett's original Leadbeater's mixture to Glider Central!


What I would advise anyone who is looking for the other 50% of my diet - take the information from Ness/Booth article below to your veterinarian.

Longtime Australian friend Rosie wrote 'General Husbandry and Medical Care of Sugar Gliders' in Kirk's Current Therapy XIII 1999

(more Recent below)

Rosie Booth BVSc & Robert D. Ness DVM
Clinical Medicine and Surgery second Edition -
Saunders , chapter 31 -
"Sugar Gliders"

I have posted a link to Robert Ness's Wellness Clinic here in the USA & then go to exotics & click on Sugar Glider's PDF - some of their published article is listed
WellNess
_________________________
:grey: We will be known forever by the tracks we leave :grey:
http://www.marsupialsociety.org

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#788112 - 06/03/09 01:22 AM Re: PML / HPW protein amounts [Re: Pockets]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
wave Hi Debbie, good to see you back and posting again. Great post.

I love your input and value it so much. I've heard so much about your extensive library and the research you have done.

My understanding of the HPW diet is Peggy took the wambaroo to Dr. Tristin and asked his opinion on it and on the PML diet. Based on not having all the "extras" you feed your gliders, it was his recommendation to add the bee pollen and such. I wasn't there so I'm not sure and my memory isn't always what it once was. Could have been Peggy formulated the diet and then had Tristan review it. Peggy would have to say either way.

I know that it has been around for about 5 years now and there has been a great number of gliders on the HPW diet and doing well. But 5 years is a short time frame as far as glider diets.

It's about the same as with my Reep's diet (which is also wambaroo based). Almost 5 years now. But until we have gliders on it for 10-15 years or more and generations, we won't really know the outcome or the true benefits/pitfalls of either the HPW or the Reep's (or any of the others for that matter).
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#788115 - 06/03/09 01:55 AM Re: PML / HPW protein amounts [Re: Dancing]
Lynsie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 8329
Loc: Quincy, IL 62305
Quote:
What I would advise anyone who is looking for the other 50% of my diet - take the information from Ness/Booth article below to your veterinarian.


I would think that as the creator of the diet that it would be your responsibility to list the full diet.

Peggy took this info to her vet and that is how the HPW was established but you don't agree with it. My vet also agrees that HPW is a good diet. So I don't see how taking an artical to your vet will provide you with the other half of your diet. Even if a vet would have a suggestion, it could be wrong, or completely different from what you feed and there could be negative outcomes instead of positive. I think in that case I would rather be safe than sorry and stick to the diet that my gliders are healthy on.
_________________________
Lynsie,
LuckyYou Gliders


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#788176 - 06/03/09 08:25 AM Re: PML / HPW protein amounts [Re: Lynsie]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16758
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Debbie hug2

Glad to see you back posting over here. You know I LOVE LOVE LOVE talking gliders and diets and everything and anything else with you. One day we WILL get together again. grin

As for the HPW, I did exactly as Debbie told me to do when I was speaking with her about the High Protein Wombaroo powder. As I have always stated, it is because of HER how this ever came about.

When I took the PML diet plan along with all the other things at that time Debbie told me she was feeding into the vet, we both knew it would not be feasible to think that everyone, including myself, would be able to get all the Australian plants, seeds etc that Debbie was feeding. So some changes were made.

Instead of using the insectivore fare (zookeepers), which is another source of protein, we omitted that and *need* for bugs and added in the bee pollen (which gliders do eat in the wild) and another egg, as that is much higher quality and digestible protein then chicken.

I do NOT consider the *HPW* diet the PML diet. I personally have always said they are two totally different diets.

With the diet plan I have personally been using over the past 5 years, I have also been getting blood work and xrays done on my gliders. Different ones of different ages at different times, just to keep track of how the diet is affecting them.

Thank God I have never had any illnesses, other than loosing Bug to a urinary bladder infection. But even then Debbie, when a necropsy was done on her, we had to send off tissues and organs to the lab as everything appeared to be in perfect condition. Her liver was also PERFECT and the HPW diet was the only diet she had ever been on.

We have never had any concern with the numbers in the blood work in/on any of my gliders.

I also agree with Teresa, it will take more than 5 years and even after that I am sure we will learn something to improve on things.

I would like to take this time to say thank you for introducing me and my gliders to the HPW powder as it has really made a difference in their lives to be on it.

Working together as a whole, we never know what we will learn.

As for Dr.D, just curious, does she have gliders of her own as well, or does she just do studies from other gliders and/or papers and reports that she gets? I havent read a whole lot of her work, you will have to share some with me.

Also take into consideration, our gliders are going to be much different than the wild gliders as ours dont get to travel 7 miles in one night from tree to tree!! LOL!!

LOVE those links you posted....I watch them often. thumb
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#788193 - 06/03/09 09:32 AM Re: PML / HPW protein amounts [Re: Pockets]
Zuki_Mom Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 325
Loc: Williamsburg, Ohio
Wow this is really neat! I would love to learn more from you about diets and nutrition smile
_________________________
Tiffany

Glider mom to:
Nami, Zizi, Xavier, Askr, Gio, & Alice

Also mom to:
1 Dog-Evie
2 Cats-Apollo and Morpheous
2 Beautiful Skin Kids
angel For all my lost angels, Mom loves you angel

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#788604 - 06/04/09 08:32 AM Re: PML / HPW protein amounts [Re: Srlb]
Pockets Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 2092
Loc: Lone Star State
Most items I have ordered from Australia thru the years have been used for behavioral enrichment, I guess many assume if it came from Oz it must be diet related (lol)

Sugar glider's do not consume a high protein diet year round in any of their native habitats, - diets depend on the habitat floristics of each given area -
Why would glider's in captivity have a higher need for protein than their wild counterparts (?) a captive glider's energy requirements are much less.

Hopefully my concerns are without reason - lets certainly hope so!

The possible cholestrol / tumour, issue I am concerned with & was speaking about above states "possums in CAPTIVITY"
I guess most here, just assume that if one is speaking of an animal species in Australia, especially anything related to glider's they certainly cannot or could not be living in captivity - Aussies have been keeping & enjoying sugar glider's as captive pets much longer than ourselves.
Many of the 'Indigenous people' kept sugar glider's as pets long before we were born - I do keep in touch with a few descendants who have relayed stories of Dreamtime - Sugar Glider Dreaming etc.....


Peggy - I certainly do not have the knowledge of a nutritional zoologist but I certainly look to them & others for their knowledge, even if they have never had a glider
_________________________
:grey: We will be known forever by the tracks we leave :grey:
http://www.marsupialsociety.org

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#788668 - 06/04/09 11:02 AM Re: PML / HPW protein amounts [Re: Pockets]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16758
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
I guess what I was trying to say Debbie, is there really is not a difference in the amount of protein fed if feeding the PML and the HPW, just a difference in *how* it is fed.

With the PML, zookeepers is fed, with HPW that had been omitted and another egg was added. I do know some that only use two eggs though.

Also, you stated:

Quote:
The possible cholestrol / tumour, issue I am concerned with


Are you suggesting that it is the eggs or the cholestrol that is causing the tumors we are seeing lately? If so, can you please tell me why and where this information is coming from, possibly even be willing to send it over to me so I can forward it on to Tristan. I would REALLY appreciate it, as we have been trying to gather info on the cancer issues and trying to find out why we are seeing more of it.

Quote:
Why would glider's in captivity have a higher need for protein than their wild counterparts (?) a captive glider's energy requirements are much less.


Agree with you here, but why would you think we are giving more protein? I guess that is where I am at a loss.

Quote:
Peggy - I certainly do not have the knowledge of a nutritional zoologist


Me neither my friend, me neither...

Once again though, we have to remember, the gliders in Australia are actually much different than the gliders we have here and I am sure that the temp changes, living conditions, available food sources etc play a very important role in all things. So although we can and will learn many things from our Australian folks and expand off of what we learn, we also need to keep in mind that everything from climate, to husbandry, to foods will differ...

Of course YOU already knew that, as I have learned much of what I started out with from you. grin And always looking in my email for more important information on these boogers from you to read and learn on.

So, if you have any of Dr.D's writings, send them on over so I can check them out. thumb
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#788789 - 06/04/09 03:19 PM Re: PML / HPW protein amounts [Re: Srlb]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
Many people are confused by the diet "HPW" as that is the actual name of THE powder from Australia, High Protein Wombaroo. Maybe calling it "Peggy's HPW" would allow for less confusion. Too many are associating the name thinking if they simply use the High Protein Wombaroo powder for any diet or even to sprinkle it on foods, that they are using the "HPW" diet.

I have not seen where Insectavore Fare is to be used with PML. I have not fed that with the PML. I feed veggies, fruits, yogurt, nectars, certain flowers and many other things with the PML. PML can be fed with many foods giving the gliders a much needed variety. (of course, keeping in mind of CA/Ph, fat, etc,.

More people should RESEARCH foods rather than depend on each individual diet creator to tell them exactly what they feed their gliders. I personally have never met a single person that "sticks" to a diet by feeding the exact same foods every single night of a gliders life.

Eggs are high in protein and cholesterol. It is a known FACT that too much cholesterol causes many serious conditions in humans such as clogged arteries, heart problems, etc,.

Too much protein can cause other serious issues with kidneys for instance. Fatty livers are seen in captive gliders from too much protein and fat resulting in death in our gliders.

It is my belief that OUR captive gliders do not need the amounts of protein than that of the captive gliders even in Australia. In Australia, the captive gliders still have VERY LARGE "aviaries" where most are kept outside, they still are getting THEIR NATIVE foods fed to them. We simply cannot duplicate what they do in Australia.

Many of us give our gliders lots of toys, excersize, tent and out of cage time...it is NOT however, the same as a glider having for instance an 8 foot by 8 foot by 8 tall aviary. When we are not playing with them, they are not gliding, foraging to burn up the energy. OUR gliders sleep much at night, play with toys and use wheels. While this is okay, it is just NOT the same.

In Australia, they are not passing out mealworms, yogurt drops, etc., to their gliders daily or nightly..if at ALL.

While we have our gliders best interest in mind, we are NOT doing them any favors by giving them many of the foods we do.

The bee pollen has been a concern with gliders getting false positives/negatives in urine cultures. My vet doesn't agree with giving bee pollen every single night. Bee pollen is a treat to gliders seasonally even in Australia. I know here, my gliders will eat the flowers before they will even touch the bee pollen. (I use the Australian bee pollen as a treat once or twice a week and only a few granules)
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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#788874 - 06/04/09 06:37 PM Re: PML / HPW protein amounts [Re: SugarBlossoms]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16758
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
I have not seen where Insectavore Fare is to be used with PML


Debbie stated above:

Quote:
What I would advise anyone who is looking for the other 50% of my diet - take the information from Ness/Booth article below to your veterinarian.


And this is where I got the insectivore (zookeepers)

Quote:
Nutrition

Sugar gliders have broad dietary needs. The diet of the wild sugar glider includes sap and gum from eucalyptus and acacia trees, nectar and pollen, manna and honeydew, and a wide variety of insects and arachnids. Their diet varies with the season. These animals are primarily insectivorous during the spring and summer months. During the winter months, the sugar glider feeds on gum from the eucalyptus and acacia trees, as well as sap and sugar excretions from the trees and sap-sucking insects. Although these animals readily accept fruit, nuts and grains, these are not a substantial part of their natural diet. Contrary to the nutritional needs observed in the wild, much of the information found in lay publications lists fruit and vegetables as a major portion of the captive diet.

Several components make up the recommended sugar glider diet. The captive diet should include nectar, insects, other protein sources, and limited fruit and vegetables. Protein is a critical nutritional factor in sugar gliders. Various protein sources include insects (mealworms and crickets), eggs, newborn mice, lean meat and commercial protein sources (insectivore diets, monkey chow). Another natural dietary component is sap and nectar, which provides the necessary carbohydrates. Sources include fresh nectar, honey, and artificial nectar products. Examples of commercial products include prepared lory diets and Gliderade® (Avico). Commercial sugar glider and insectivore diets are available and should be included as part of the diet. Leafy green vegetables can be provided as a source of fiber and certain vitamins. Sugar gliders accept a wide variety of other foods, including fruit, vegetables, nuts and seeds (sunflower and pumpkin). Fruit juices and strained baby food can be offered if free of preservatives. Since these foods are not a significant component of the natural diet, they should constitute less than 10% of the diet. A broad-spectrum vitamin and mineral supplement with a good calcium supply is lightly sprinkled on the food daily.

A simplified diet for captive sugar gliders has been proposed. The diet consists of 50% insectivore/carnivore diet and 50% Leadbeater’s mixture, with a small amount of other foods as treats. Various insectivore/carnivore diets are marketed and the choice depends on reliability of the company, availability to the owner and acceptance by the pet. The Leadbeater’s mixture consists of 150 ml water, 150 ml honey, 1 shelled hard-boiled egg, 25 gm high protein baby cereal and 1 tsp vitamin and mineral mixture. This mixture is kept refrigerated until served. The mixture can be frozen for later use, with refrigerated portions discarded after about 3 days. Acceptable treat food can include lean meats, diced fruit, bee pollen, and gut-loaded insects. Treats should constitute less than 5% of this diet.



Also, Debbie states to take the information to your vet, which is exactly what I did with the stuff she gave to me. grin And something else I have also suggested to do to others.

Seems to be a LOT of confusion going on around lately...diets, colors, generations....LOL...

Also, folks seem to be more concerned over the amount of honey more than they are the eggs, yet in that article, you can see they use the same amount of honey as water. Just less eggs.

I do agree though, if people are going to be using the PML diet, they do need to use it the way that Debbie has it written. Just as others need to follow the directions on say the BML or Judies BML, or the Suncoast diet or Priscillas diet etc...I have always stated I do NOT use the PML diet as I was not able to get some of the items Debbie was feeding her gliders and others have asked Debbie to post what else SHE feeds with HER diet PML.

Quote:
More people should RESEARCH foods rather than depend on each individual diet creator to tell them exactly what they feed their gliders. I personally have never met a single person that "sticks" to a diet by feeding the exact same foods every single night of a gliders life.


Agree 150%

Quote:
Too much protein can cause other serious issues with kidneys for instance. Fatty livers are seen in captive gliders from too much protein and fat resulting in death in our gliders.


This is very true, however with that being said, there have not been any gliders to my knowledge as of today that have been on nothing more than the HPW diet with any kind of health issues. Not saying it wont or never could happen, but it seems the gliders that have had fatty liver issues were gliders on previous diets prior to HPW or on different diets altogether.

Quote:
While we have our gliders best interest in mind, we are NOT doing them any favors by giving them many of the foods we do.


Agreed

Quote:
The bee pollen has been a concern with gliders getting false positives/negatives in urine cultures


I have heard of issues with fecals but not urine tests. What has been discovered in the Urine cultures?
Also, fecal studies of the gliders in the wild in Australia have found traces of bee pollen in their feces as well. Not saying that makes it ok, just that it isnt uncommon.

I personally LOVE when things like this come up. It brings up questions, questions cause people to think, ask, and research. Research leads to new learnings.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#788899 - 06/04/09 07:36 PM Re: PML / HPW protein amounts [Re: Srlb]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
You are correct, my mistake on the tests, it IS the fecal not the urine. smile
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

Top
#789718 - 06/06/09 01:49 PM Re: PML / HPW protein amounts [Re: Srlb]
Pockets Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 2092
Loc: Lone Star State
Many different items that can be added as insectivore - Remember mycotoxin's is why I originally incorporated the Wombaroo High Protein Supplement in the first place!
I do not feed insects of any kind!


Peggy we have tripled Des Hackett' Leadbeater's mixture -

you use a bit more water than I do in your WHP supplement, an extra egg & prepared differently, more Wombaroo High Protein Supp & add Pollen to your WHP mix.

I have always fed pollen's, mostly Australian but do not add as often -
crude protein amounts do differ in Australian pollens & if using, please try to choose Eastern & South Eastern Australia pollen.
For years I have used both honey & pollen from the New Zealand Tea tree (Manuka honey UMF25) it has highly rated medicinal properties - yes there are also tea trees in Oz (lol)


Okay EGGS -

each large egg has aprox 6 g of protein.
egg white - 3.6g,
egg yolk - 2.7g

Each Large Egg also has aprox 212mg of cholesterol & the recommended amount for humans is 300mg per day!

If you look at the EggLand's Best Egg's I recommend & use in my 'PML' Pocket's Modified Leadbeater's - those figures change a bit -

Total fat in one Large Egglands Best egg is 4.0, total sat fat is 1.2, protein same 6.3, Cholesterol 175mg, etc...

Total fat in one Ordinary Egg is - 4.5, total sat fat is 1.6, protein 6.3, cholesterol 213mg, etc..
EggLand's Best

(Then how the egg's are cooked/served adds more protein & calories)


Original Leadbeater's mix calls for 25g of high protein baby cereal for mixing 150ml, we have to triple to 75g (correct)
Wombaroo High Protein Supplement - states that you only need to use HALF the quanity - because of it's superior protein quality & higher concentration.
which would be quite close to 37 - Wombaroo states to use LESS than half, this is why I recommend using 30g or 1 ounce of Wombaroo High Protein Supplement & changing seasonally for breeding glider's.
(peggy you use 2 ounces of Wombaroo High Protein Supplement)



Then if we add pollen to mix - depending on the pollen & I believe you are using or were using jarrah pollen (?)
if so that is a euc which is native to South western Australia & is used as a feed source to bee-keepers in South Eastern Australia - it is a good source of pollen, crude protein of E. marginata (jarrah) is 20.6 similar to E. dealbata (hill gum) 20.5 crude protein, but I might change to a South Eastern pollen.


That is why I am concerned about the protein amounts being fed to glider's as well as cholesterol amounts - many also add more eggs, insects, etc......



Another thing I think is misunderstood is the flora, etc that native sg's consume , amounts & the important changes seen in the different areas seasonally - what I see posted on websites is not entirely correct (they are usually speaking of one area).
Native sugar glider's sizes & weights are different, although most only speak of the larger glider's -again true in some ares - mostly South Eastern Australia & Tasmania - but one would learn much from looking at other areas.
I know generally speaking that Queensland & PNG has much smaller glider's, as does several of the surrounding islands.


(hope this helps a little)







Edited by Pockets (06/06/09 02:28 PM)
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#789729 - 06/06/09 03:10 PM Re: PML / HPW protein amounts [Re: Pockets]
NGS
Unregistered


I have found this post to be very interesting and would like to share with you an email that came from the Steve Irwin Zoo in Australia.

I had wrote to them asking questions about the HPW diet because I had some concerns with using to much honey and protein. This is the email I got back from them.



Hi April!

Thank you for your email!

We have not had gliders in our collection for about 4 years now, so we have
not amended any diet information as we have had no requirements to do so at
this time. However,
I always suggest that when trying to formulate any diet to look at what the
animal would naturally eat in the wild and use those products as the basis
to build on. Honey is not a product they would naturally eat and obviously
is very high in sugars, which in high quantities can be bad for general
nutrition and very bad for their dental health! If the use of honey can be
avoided I would suggest that, but if it must be used only use enough to
"taste". The recipe in the above doc is often used with captive gliders,
however we kept all our gliders (to a nice OLD age) on a daily diet of 3/4
verge to 1/4 hard fruit mix (they would only need about 30g max each) bark
sap; various local browse and insects (we also use Insectivore additive to
the vege mix). To monitor this we always weighed our gliders every 2 weeks
and modified the diet amount to suit each individual.

Yearly vet checks is also advisable

Thanks again for your email!

Kind Regards+

International Correspondent | Australia Zoo

Steve Irwin Way, Beerwah, QLD 4519
Ph: (07) 5436 2000
Fax: (07) 5494 8604
Email: info@australiazoo.com.au
Web: www.australiazoo.com.au



I also know that there are people who have modified the HPW diet a bit on their own because of all the talk about what amount should be or should not be.

Also some like the healesville sanctuary diet and the HPW. The Healesville diet also had to be modified some because you cannot buy high protein baby cereal.

Most all of this comes down to the amount of research done by someone and personal preference of what each individual feels is right for their gliders. Everyone has the gliders best interest in mind.

some have change the amount of honey by replacing it with unsweetened apple sauce so instead of using 1 1/2 cups of honey, some people are using 1/2 cup of honey and 1/2 cup unsweetened applesauce.

Eggs have been dropped to 2 eggs

Bee Pollen has been dropped to one tablespoon

and some have added the baby cereal with the High Protein Wombarro making high protein baby cereal.

Oh I almost forgot some are using All Natural Maple Syrup in place of honey. I also had a vet tell me that Maple syrup would be better than honey. (When compared Natural Maple is better than honey)

Pockets and others I would like to know your thoughts and opinions on this. Thanks you smile






Edited by NGS (06/06/09 04:30 PM)

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#789815 - 06/06/09 05:59 PM Re: PML / HPW protein amounts [Re: ]
Pockets Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 2092
Loc: Lone Star State
Hello April

Interesting reply - I also contacted the Irwin's several years ago & received a reply from Terri Irwin (need to locate actual email) she told me that although the sugar glider's were very cute - we also needed to be concerned with the other OZ animal species (ROFL) Terri never answered my sg diet question.


I have been talking with, collecting & keeping files on sugar glider, Leadbeater's, & other glider species diets from many Australian sources, Wildlife sanctuaries, Zoological parks, Marsupial societies, Zoological societies, DVM articles, etc... & many OZ publications , many are out of print now - for quite a few years now.

I am quite certain that Beerwah would know Rosie booth & her many publications (see Ness, Booth above) as it would certainly be interesting to be a glider hidden in a pocket to that conversation!
Last I knew, Rosie resides in QLD herself & is a VIP at David Fleay's Wildlife park - David was also a naturalist & his publications are so interesting - he also searched for that little elusive leadbeater's possum for quite a while, bred platypus etc...)



From another Aussie publication pertaining to field studies "..a mixture of honey or golden syrup and raw sugar which emulates the possum's carbohydrate -rich diet of plant and gum"
(Isn't that an interesting tidbit)

Des Hackett's Leadbeater's mixture has been used by most of these wildlife sanctuaries & Zoological parks all over the world, for over 40 years now, which does not mean it is the end all - it means Des had a hit with his Leadbeater's mix which worked quite well - but we progress!

I do try to keep up with the recent research & researchers as diet changes seem to be arriving a bit quicker now. (I am thrilled & have always looked to their native lands for my diet answers)

I can not count how many sugar glider diet sources that I have collected thru the years but it would be in the hundreds & many OZ zoological parks etc...have revised & continue to revise their diets. Healesville has revised their sg diet at least three times that I have. That is why I had wombaroo HPS imported into the USA because we could not purchase the high protein baby cereal - My buddy Bob in OZ President of the 'MSA'
Marsupial Society of Australia used Farex baby cereal for both his squirrel & sugar glider's for many many years.

This site is linked from a dear Aussies friends website
(I do not agree with Sonya, that sugar glider's do not eat flowers or buds - my Australian research publications from field studies - show a different picture & my own glider's have shown me that years ago)
many may find Sonya's Possums interesting -

Fourth Crossing Wildlife Soyna Stanvic


Edited by Pockets (06/06/09 06:05 PM)
_________________________
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#789953 - 06/07/09 01:48 AM Re: PML / HPW protein amounts [Re: Pockets]
KattyM Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 9910
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
I love this thread! Thank you for all the links and articles and discussion. What a wealth of information!

A question on the eggs and cholesterol. What do you think of using only egg whites instead of whole eggs (same gram weight equivalent perhaps)? The protein is slightly less, the total lipid fat is almost negligible by comparison, and the Ca:P ratio is slightly better.

From the USDA Nutrient Database for Standard Reference, per 100 gram servings of fresh, raw:
  • Egg white: Protein=10.90, Total lipid (fat)=0.17, Ca:P=.47:1
  • Egg yolk: Protein=15.86, Total lipid (fat)=26.54, Ca:P=.33:1

dunno
_________________________
Owned by my :grey: "Eight is Enough" colony:

• 2003: Hiroshi (M)
• 2009: Herbie (M)

:rbridge:
• 2002-2004: Keiko (F) and baby Tomoki (M)
• 2009: Sammy (F), Charlie (F), Murray (M)
• 2010: BJ (M)
My gallery

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#789959 - 06/07/09 02:49 AM Re: PML / HPW protein amounts [Re: KattyM]
DeeDancer Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 1035
Loc: Las Vegas, NV/Columbus, OH
Originally Posted By: KattyM
I love this thread! Thank you for all the links and articles and discussion. What a wealth of information!


I completely agree. This is the most informative active thread that I've read on GC. Please keep it up, ladies!
_________________________
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Chinchillas: Luke, Yoda, and Pronk
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(702)250-5236

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#790079 - 06/07/09 12:04 PM Re: PML / HPW protein amounts [Re: DeeDancer]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16758
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
Many different items that can be added as insectivore


Ok, what are YOU adding besides the HPW? Especially since you dont feed bugs of any kind?

Quote:
For years I have used both honey & pollen from the New Zealand Tea tree (Manuka honey UMF25) it has highly rated medicinal properties - yes there are also tea trees in Oz


Debbie, are you still using this honey and pollen from New Zealand and if so, how to you obtain it and are we able to get it as well? Is it something that folks will be able to afford to incorporate into their gliders diets?

Quote:
That is why I am concerned about the protein amounts being fed to glider's as well as cholesterol amounts - many also add more eggs, insects, etc......


Insects are not a must, just offered as a treat.

Very interesting reading with the eggs, but once again, do you think this is what may be causing the tumors we are currently seeing in gliders? Or do you think it could also be coming from the honey that is given?

Quote:
Native sugar glider's sizes & weights are different, although most only speak of the larger glider's -again true in some ares - mostly South Eastern Australia & Tasmania - but one would learn much from looking at other areas.



I believe that to be the same here...if you look around, you will see that folks all have different sizes of gliders as well as different medical issues. I think possibly some of these issues are due to climates, water sources, as well as where food sources are arriving from.

Quote:
(hope this helps a little)


As I stated before, I have learned a lot from you in the past, and looks like my next lesson is coming up!! grin

Quote:
From another Aussie publication pertaining to field studies "..a mixture of honey or golden syrup and raw sugar which emulates the possum's carbohydrate -rich diet of plant and gum"


Very interesting to say the least.

Debbie, what other than the nectar mix are you currently feeding your gliders? What is the other 50% of the *PML* diet that goes onto your suggies dishes each night?
I know you added the link above, but then you stated you dont add the insectivore, so obviously you are not feeding everything that is fed in that link. I guess that was one of the reasons many had problems with the PML diet, as they werent certain what else needs to be fed.

I absolutely LOVE when these threads are brought up and discussed. It truly does go such a long way and so beneficial for the gliders.

Its nice to be able to speak openly on diets with folks with open minds that are willing to listen instead of just saying, Nope, you are wrong!! roflmao
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#790258 - 06/07/09 08:28 PM Re: PML / HPW protein amounts [Re: Srlb]
Pockets Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 2092
Loc: Lone Star State
Thank's so much for the kind words guy's

Katty I don't know but hope someone with more knowledge will assist

Peggy, yes I have fed Manuka (Leptospermum scoparium) to my glider's for several years, & following the research about methylglyoxal has been quite interesting.
I also grow this shrup as well as other Aussie flora
the change from usda zones has/is a challenge


I usually add one or 2 tablespoons of Manuka MGO/UMF 25 their 'PML' every 2nd batch - it is pricey but one could purchase a lower MGO/UMF 10 or 20 or could be fed less often - if one wished to feed manuka

If this has peeked your interest - take a peek
Manuka

This certainly can be purchased by anyone thru the Manuka Health website or Ebay - just becareful of dishonesty & fake Manuka products, as they are out there!


Peggy - I certainly believe that the changes to Des's Leadbeater's mixture have done wonders here in the USA & his original mixture certainly aided leadbeater's & glider's worldwide.
Have you ever seen a complete diet from some of his research -

Many people cannot agree about the basic sugar glider diet.
I prefer to be a small link in the research chain - preferring not to argue with others about which diet is best etc.... I tend to agree with Rosie Booth's & Robert Ness's information - but have always looked towards the sugar glider's different native habitats for my own glider's diets - many would not agree

Wish I had more answer, more nutritional knowledge & countinue on my quest searching for better lives for my glider's in captivity - Australian sugar glider's have not really changed much in what (?) 50 mil years or so
_________________________
:grey: We will be known forever by the tracks we leave :grey:
http://www.marsupialsociety.org

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#793338 - 06/13/09 03:14 PM Re: PML / HPW protein amounts [Re: Pockets]
jungleflockmom
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Pockets

(I do not agree with Sonya, that sugar glider's do not eat flowers or buds - my Australian research publications from field studies - show a different picture & my own glider's have shown me that years ago)


When the acacias and eucs are blooming, my gliders gorge on the blossoms and buds. It's their happiest time of the year. Looks like the glider in your avatar loves the blooms and nectar, too.Banksia?

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#793569 - 06/14/09 02:19 AM Re: PML / HPW protein amounts [Re: ]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
Hey Debbie, Great to see you back...
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BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

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#793640 - 06/14/09 11:00 AM Re: PML / HPW protein amounts [Re: Pockets]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16758
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Sorry I am just getting back to this...

Quote:
Peggy - I certainly believe that the changes to Des's Leadbeater's mixture have done wonders here in the USA & his original mixture certainly aided leadbeater's & glider's worldwide.
Have you ever seen a complete diet from some of his research -


No Debbie, I have not. Do you have any of it? What was his first diet he used? How long had you used it before changing?

Quote:
Many people cannot agree about the basic sugar glider diet.


How true, that goes with any diet though, people or animal you will always have a difference in opinion. However, we must be willing to challenge each other with questions, in a healthy way, in order to grow and learn. I have always believed just because I feed what I feed doesnt mean everyone else has to, yet if nobody else did, it doesnt mean I shouldnt...ya know? grin

Quote:
I also grow this shrup as well as other Aussie flora
the change from usda zones has/is a challenge


This is one of the main reasons I have always said I do not feed PML. I can not offer the other remaining 50% of the diet YOU feed. And if you want someone to feed the *PML* diet, it would be what you feed to your gliders. See what I mean?
Growing things...I have a hard time growing anything at all...

So I asked you before and you must have overlooked it, do you think it may be the eggs that are causing tumors in the gliders? And what do you think of the idea of too much honey in the mixtures? Some feel that is contributing to the problems some are seeing these days...
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#793994 - 06/15/09 10:36 AM Re: PML / HPW protein amounts [Re: Srlb]
NGS
Unregistered


http://www.manukahoneyus.com/

Hey pockets I really like the information with the Manuka Honey.

Do you have any other great finds like this one? Thanks for sharing. smile

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#794921 - 06/17/09 08:13 AM Re: PML / HPW protein amounts [Re: ]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16758
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Hey Debbie, where did you go???

Dont want to loose this in the pile.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#796816 - 06/20/09 10:12 PM Re: PML / HPW protein amounts [Re: Srlb]
SugaWhit Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 734
Loc: Jupiter, Florida
This type of thread is the reason I joined this forum, what a wealth of information!
Please don't stop!
_________________________
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Warbuck :plat: & Lysia :rtmo: & Clarissa with Twins oop each!
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#810345 - 07/21/09 06:52 PM Re: PML / HPW protein amounts [Re: Bourbon]
khyricat
Unregistered


Pockets- I haven't been on much myself- too busy with school, I want to finish my human nutrition work, get my RD, then a CDE (about 3 years total to go), then study under Dr Dierenfeld- I have been in contact with her. I would like to specifically research glider diets, but not ONLY gliders... and I hope that it works out for me, but it will probably be several years. Meanwhile- I have 2 articles by her that I will have copies of at SGGA for those interested- her most recent one on the feeding and behaviour of gliders, and one from 2006 that I think is a good reference and information the community needs to see.

Amie

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