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#795062 - 06/17/09 02:30 PM Wild Sugar Gliders into US?
astronoc
Unregistered


I was wondering if there are wild sugar gliders introduced to the community or to the breeding lines? I know that other pet hobbyst can/will do that but I am not sure if that is done with sugar gliders. If it is done, which area are they exported from?

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#795063 - 06/17/09 02:33 PM Re: Wild Sugar Gliders into US? [Re: ]
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 7356
Loc: Austin, TX
Not any longer. It was done years ago, when gliders were first brought into the country. However, I do not believe we are importing gliders any longer.
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#795104 - 06/17/09 04:06 PM Re: Wild Sugar Gliders into US? [Re: USMom]
astronoc
Unregistered


Where were they imported from? Do we know how many pairs, etc.? How do we know that all of the sugar glider lines that we currently have arent all inbred already?

BTW: Thanks for answering my questions. I've always wondered but not sure of the answers!


Edited by astronoc (06/17/09 04:06 PM)

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#795108 - 06/17/09 04:14 PM Re: Wild Sugar Gliders into US? [Re: ]
Sherri Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/06
Posts: 3826
Loc: Big Sandy TN
Thats just it! Thats why its so important not to breed gliders that dont have lieages. Because we just dont know the answers.

I'm sorry I cant answer either of your other questions, hopefully someone else can come along and help.

I "thought' I heard that they were imported from New Guinea and Indonesia, I'm sure there were other places as well I just cant think of them right now.
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#795141 - 06/17/09 05:41 PM Re: Wild Sugar Gliders into US? [Re: Sherri]
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
Sheila would be the one to ask. If I remember correctly, many of the original gliders were imported from Indonesia.

Some of the gliders are listed in the databases as being wildcaught, such as Mac and Cheese, but they weren't. They were imported from a breeder in Indonesia.

I believe it's now illegal to import gliders to the US, but I could be wrong... Hopefully one of the older breeders will come by and clear it all up. wink
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#795142 - 06/17/09 05:51 PM Re: Wild Sugar Gliders into US? [Re: Guerita135]
Leyna
Unregistered


Gliders can still be imported to the US, but Australia put an export ban into place several years back, so we can only get gliders from Indonesia now. Honestly, unless you could pin down a couple color variation gliders, it probably wouldn't be worth the expense to have the gliders imported to the states. Heck, it cost $200 just to ship a glider in the US, imagine the expense of hiring somebody in another color to find the gliders you want, get them threw customs, etc, etc.

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#795154 - 06/17/09 06:28 PM Re: Wild Sugar Gliders into US? [Re: ]
astronoc
Unregistered


Thats the thing though.... a new sugar glider with close ties to the wild would be beneficial to the genetic diversity of our captive population. A new line may be worth a lot to someone that wishes to ensure their lines are as diverse as possible. I know people go for the pretty colors and those are expensive but a new line would be worth its weight in gold as well.

Also, the gliders in Indonesia seem to be of the Petaurus breviceps papuanus (P. b. papuanus) variety rather than the Petaurus breviceps breviceps (P. b. breviceps). How do we know we didnt get the papuanus instead of the breviceps which is what is typically pointed to?

I dont know what the difference is in sugar glider subspecies but is it possible that we've already introduced the indonesian subspecies to to the captive population?

Does anyone have subspecies information and differences? I tried looking but couldnt find info besides location. Typically, location is not sufficient enough to call for a new subspecies unless there are other trait differences. Be that in size, color, or general traits......

Again, dont expect core answers but I do want to know what the general thought is.


Edited by astronoc (06/17/09 06:32 PM)

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#795291 - 06/17/09 11:02 PM Re: Wild Sugar Gliders into US? [Re: ]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
We most likely don't have pure blood P. b. b.s - ours look very little like the Australian gliders (there are several subspecies there as well). I would actually think that our gene pool is primarily from Indonesia/New Guinea as that is where most of the 'wild caught' imports came from back then. I know my oldest girl is second generation captive bred (assumed, as imports were assumed to have been wild caught, although that may or may not have been true) and the breeder imported those gliders from New Guinea. In all likelihood I tend to doubt ours are one or the other of the 7 subs out there - they are more likely a mix.

It is very difficult (or has been in my experience) to get very much information on the differences in the subspecies - I know I have heard that there are differences in appearance (body and head shape, and sometimes in coloring - as I have heard WTs are common in some areas and not in others). But I haven't found much in the way of pictorial or scientific explanations of differences between the subspecies. dunno
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~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#795342 - 06/18/09 04:13 AM Re: Wild Sugar Gliders into US? [Re: sugarlope]
Marz Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 708
Loc: Melbourne Australia
I would certainly not encourage any importation of gliders from Indonesia/New Guinea. Sad to say, "breeders" there are usually people who have poached wild gliders illegally from New Guinea, transported them to mainstream Indonesia where it is easier to export them/breed them for a ready cashed up market.

Now, cultural differences especially from our own, see many indonesians who have little respect or love for animals.These breeders if they do actually breed, would be keeping these animals in conditions that would make US mill breeders look like top notch establishments and that would be no exageration.

I have been to Indonesia quite a few times, and I have to be restrained when I see how some animals are treated there. The conditions of the zoo facilities etc are absolutely appalling. There are of course, some lovely people there too who love their animals but the cultures are so different to say US or Australia, what we would consider animal abuse is just a way of life there.

Why would anyone encourage all this, just to get a few more bloodlines? Aren't there enough gliders in US that are desperate for good homes? Why breed many more for an already oversaturated market.

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#795344 - 06/18/09 04:35 AM Re: Wild Sugar Gliders into US? [Re: ]
Marz Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 708
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Originally Posted By: astronoc


Also, the gliders in Indonesia seem to be of the Petaurus breviceps papuanus (P. b. papuanus) variety rather than the Petaurus breviceps breviceps (P. b. breviceps). How do we know we didnt get the papuanus instead of the breviceps which is what is typically pointed to?



The gliders in US would be mostly from New Guinea (papua and Indonesian territories of N.G) and from some islands surrounding both territories of New Guinea.

Whilst no doubt there would possibly be a few Australian gliders in the origins there in US, exportation of australian native animals has been restricted for many years and only then from captive stock not from wild stock. Captive stock here is not in significant numbers either. However poaching/illegal trade and smuggling has been rife for many years in Indo/New Guinea so this is where the wild stock has come from.

Petaurus Breviceps Breviceps is a subspecies based in southern Aus (Vic/Tas/parts of NSW) - a larger glider. There is also Petaurus Breviceps longicaudatus (NSW/Qld) and the much smaller and more indonesian looking Petaurus Breviceps Ariel from Northern Territory.

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#795345 - 06/18/09 04:35 AM Re: Wild Sugar Gliders into US? [Re: Marz]
anjill_tree Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 04/21/09
Posts: 712
Loc: Red Oak Texas
I was reading article and there are still wild caught gliders being brought in to the US. It said more than likely the badly stained gliders have been wild caught. I have seen many badly stained ones. And the seller says,"My stock is running low, so I had to get them from somewhere else"He did not say where from, but, I know those glders were not tame either.
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#795646 - 06/18/09 05:45 PM Re: Wild Sugar Gliders into US? [Re: Marz]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
Originally Posted By: Marz
Why would anyone encourage all this, just to get a few more bloodlines? Aren't there enough gliders in US that are desperate for good homes? Why breed many more for an already oversaturated market.


I wholeheartedly agree. There are so many gliders in the US already and so very many in rescues. I cannot see what adding a 'new' grey line would accomplish. dunno
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#795655 - 06/18/09 06:10 PM Re: Wild Sugar Gliders into US? [Re: Marz]
astronoc
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Marz
Why would anyone encourage all this, just to get a few more bloodlines? Aren't there enough gliders in US that are desperate for good homes? Why breed many more for an already oversaturated market.


The purpose of the question wasnt to look into increasing animal numbers but rather looking into the quality of the breeding and how far the community has dug in. I hear a lot about not breeding gliders without lineages, etc. as well as limited breeding for specific colors. Be it grey or a special color, most animal communites do find new bloods to be beneficial for the same reasons cross breeding would need to be done. The gene pool needs to be as varied as possible.

Also, I would think that any serious breeder would definately not help nor finance in any way such a market. Wheather someone agrees with bringing in new lines or not, the question and conversation can still be had to find out where we are as a group.

Originally Posted By: sugarlope
We most likely don't have pure blood P. b. b.s - ours look very little like the Australian gliders (there are several subspecies there as well). I would actually think that our gene pool is primarily from Indonesia/New Guinea as that is where most of the 'wild caught' imports came from back then. I know my oldest girl is second generation captive bred (assumed, as imports were assumed to have been wild caught, although that may or may not have been true) and the breeder imported those gliders from New Guinea. In all likelihood I tend to doubt ours are one or the other of the 7 subs out there - they are more likely a mix.

It is very difficult (or has been in my experience) to get very much information on the differences in the subspecies - I know I have heard that there are differences in appearance (body and head shape, and sometimes in coloring - as I have heard WTs are common in some areas and not in others). But I haven't found much in the way of pictorial or scientific explanations of differences between the subspecies. dunno


You would think this stuff to be readily available since someone had to seperate the subspecies at one point based on differences. I'll keep looking into this one but the same thing you said is what I have encountered so far from an information perspective.

I think that if most people think that they came from new guinea and can almost track it, then they should be reffered by the correct subspecies. Unfortunately, it doesnt seem like that part is too important right now......

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#795880 - 06/19/09 12:30 AM Re: Wild Sugar Gliders into US? [Re: ]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
Originally Posted By: astronoc
I think that if most people think that they came from new guinea and can almost track it, then they should be reffered by the correct subspecies. Unfortunately, it doesnt seem like that part is too important right now......


The reality with this also, is as Marz said, the gliders that many got from New Guinea back when importing gliders was more common, were likely from a mill type of business and not actually wild caught. From that information, you can assume (imagine) that our gliders were probably already mixed species by the time they even got here. This is why no one refers to specific subspecies (or one reason I think). We say petaurus breviceps not petaurus breviceps breviceps or one of the other subspecies. Knowing that they are (likely) from New Guinea, still doesn't settle the sub species as there is more than one subspecies that has that range.
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#796049 - 06/19/09 11:08 AM Re: Wild Sugar Gliders into US? [Re: sugarlope]
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 7356
Loc: Austin, TX
I do know that Winkles gliders (she is in Australia) LOOK very different than ours, they are much larger and fuller looking. So, there is a body type difference.
_________________________
Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.


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#796121 - 06/19/09 01:56 PM Re: Wild Sugar Gliders into US? [Re: sugarlope]
astronoc
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: sugarlope

The reality with this also, is as Marz said, the gliders that many got from New Guinea back when importing gliders was more common, were likely from a mill type of business and not actually wild caught. From that information, you can assume (imagine) that our gliders were probably already mixed species by the time they even got here. This is why no one refers to specific subspecies (or one reason I think). We say petaurus breviceps not petaurus breviceps breviceps or one of the other subspecies. Knowing that they are (likely) from New Guinea, still doesn't settle the sub species as there is more than one subspecies that has that range.


Got it!!!! smile I'll continue to look for subspecies differences and bring them back to you guys! I now understand why giving the captive sugar glider population a subspecies is difficult if not impossible. Thank you so much for explaining this and going through the thought process with me!! I appreciate that.


Edited by astronoc (06/19/09 01:56 PM)

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#796184 - 06/19/09 04:01 PM Re: Wild Sugar Gliders into US? [Re: ]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
I look forward to seeing any information you can find! I have looked around a few times (would love to see pictures of the differences) but can just find info about the names and a little about ranges - no pictures. ohwell
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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