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#79622 - 01/24/06 07:29 PM Getting a Blood Sample from Glider...
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
[:"green"]I took Pika to the vet last week to check on yet another swollen joint - this time her middle finger on her right hand. Dr. West recommended that a complete blood work-up should be done so we can find out if Pika has gout. She tried to obtain blood from 3 different areas, but the veins kept collapsing so she wasn't able to get enough. She asked me to bring Pika back this week so she could try again.
Today, I brought Pika in & Dr. West said that she had gotten information from another vet about how to get a blood sample... The other vet told her that instead of trying to get blood from the jugular, to go the opposite direction and get it from the superior vena cava. She told me that there was some risk involved because it was possible to puncture the artery and cause internal bleeding. I told her to go ahead if she couldn't get blood from the jugular. She gave Pika sub-q fluids beforehand, but still was unable to get blood from the jugular, so she did go the other direction... and it was successful! Pika is doing great & Dr. West was able to get enough blood to send out to the lab for the complete work-up. We'll have the results in a few days... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#79623 - 01/24/06 07:34 PM Re: Getting a Blood Sample from Glider... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thats a scary situation... I don't think I could let my vet take that risk...

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#79624 - 01/24/06 07:53 PM Re: Getting a Blood Sample from Glider... [Re: ]
Anmaw Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/03/05
Posts: 659
Loc: Hernando, MS - USA
Although this was risky and probably a difficult decision for you, after seeing pictures in past post of those swollen fingers I can't blame you for making that decision. Hope the results from the blood sample will help your vet come up with a good treatment for Pika to relieve the pain and swelling. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Becky
Guardian of Stryder,
my Grandson's Sugar Glider

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#79625 - 01/24/06 09:21 PM Re: Getting a Blood Sample from Glider... [Re: ]
the gliders angel Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 3059
Loc: u.s.a.
i think i would consult a few more vets the easiest way is to cut a nail a little more than usual and get a drop from there. i dont beleive in taking any risks like that

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#79626 - 01/24/06 11:33 PM Re: Getting a Blood Sample from Glider... [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
glidersangel..it takes way more than you can get from a cut nail for a complete workup-even if you quickked them all.

My vet had the best luck with the tail vein-just remember that no more than 1% of the glider's body weight should be taken for a sample. Now I'd push fluids-in addition to water, put juice, nectar, gliderade-whatever you have in the cages tonight (Ours typically get 2-3 drinks nightly, including water, anyway, because the humidity tends to be so low at 8500 ft elevation in the winter)..to help her rebuild the lost blood supply. Some babyfood meat (turkey, chicken, beef--beef would have more iron than the poultry) for protein and iron wouldn't be out of place, either.

Let us know what the results are...and keep us updated. Your little one is in our thoughts and prayers they find what's wrong and she does okay! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#79627 - 01/25/06 02:20 AM Re: Getting a Blood Sample from Glider... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


A real risk of vena caval draw is lung puncture and pneumothorax (collapsed lung.) If you do enough of these, you will see one. I would have to want that blood badly. I still like leg vessels better, as there is some risk to a limb if it clots after draw, but less risk to life. Tail is better from a risk perspective.

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#79628 - 01/25/06 07:30 AM Re: Getting a Blood Sample from Glider... [Re: ]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
[:"green"]The thing is... she tried from a variety of locations: including arm, jugular, tail... everywhere she tried, the veins collapsed <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crying.gif" alt="" />. The vena cava was a last resort.
Karen, Jen is correct that for a complete blood work-up, not enough blood could be obtained from the nail quick.
We were blessed and Pika is doing just fine... I feel it was well worth the risk, but it was a very difficult decision to make.
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#79629 - 01/25/06 05:36 PM Re: Getting a Blood Sample from Glider... [Re: ]
the gliders angel Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 3059
Loc: u.s.a.
i would consult other vets even if u have to make a trip i wouldnt take any risks if she were mine. if shes not in pain. dont chance it. i would try different meds maybe its a bacterial issue from the eye that traveled to different parts of her body. rather than the blood. and if u find out its gout theres not much u can do anyway. id try the urine culture and sensitivity bafore the blood it takes a week to come back but that should tell u alot also a stool culture.

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#79630 - 01/25/06 06:09 PM Re: Getting a Blood Sample from Glider... [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
Suz, I know that must have been hard for you and I think you were right to do all you could to find out. Your vet sounds great. He gave you the options and must have had the confidence in him self to do the proceture. These little ones are hard to get blood from under the best conditions.

Please let us know when you hear something. And I would love to see the blood values when they come in. Do you think he will give you a copy?
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#79631 - 01/25/06 06:21 PM Re: Getting a Blood Sample from Glider... [Re: ]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
[:"green"]Ellen, thanks for the encouraging words... It's very hard to make these decisions. I truly want to do what's in the best interest of my gliders, but when presented with risky options, it's hard to decide which is the right route to take.

I am currently awaiting a phone call from my vet with the results of the blood work. I will ask her to e-mail the values to me... I'm fairly sure that she will. She's really an excellent vet. I'll post the results once I have them...
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

By the way, Pika seems to be doing very well today. She's still a bit groggy from the anesthesia, but not overly much so. Her appetite was understandably down last night, I'm sure she'll make up for it tonight. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#79632 - 01/25/06 06:57 PM Re: Getting a Blood Sample from Glider... [Re: ]
sugeebaby Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 2113
Loc: Michigan
I think you did the right thing. I would have done it too. sounds like you have a great vet. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Karen
President of The Glider Initiative
:bb: The Glider Crue :grey:

The Pampered Glider

The Glider Initiative
Have you educated someone today?



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#79633 - 01/25/06 07:07 PM Re: Getting a Blood Sample from Glider... [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Sometimes a blood draw is the only thing left to try. And yes, anesthesia will kill the appetite for a day or two. You did what you had to, and no one can blame you for that. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> I'm glad she's feeling better-just keep an eye on her. You're a good glider Mom! And I'm interested in the results, also. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#79634 - 01/25/06 08:41 PM Re: Getting a Blood Sample from Glider... [Re: ]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
[:"green"]Well, I'm glad that I had the testing done in spite of the risks... Most of the values were within normal range. However, there are three values that were higher than normal...
Phosphorus (normal 3.8 - 4.4) @ 12.6
Calcium (normal 6.9 - 8.4) @ 10.6
CPK (normal 210-589) @ 2055

Obviously, with the Phosphorus being elevated higher than the Calcium, the ratio is way off... Even though the Calcium is high, it's not high enough to offset the Phosphorus. This is an atypical (not normal) presentation of Hyperparathyroidism (a.k.a. Hind Leg Paralysis). Even though Pika is not showing symptoms of HLP, we are going to aggressively treat her with prescription calcium supplements and then retest her to see if the levels have leveled off to a more normal ratio of 2:1 Calcium:Phosphorus. The CPK is an enzyme that when elevated is indicative of bone disease (or muscle disease or trauma)... which coincides with the diagnosis of HLP...

I am really freaked out about this <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tantrum.gif" alt="" />... My first two gliders died of HLP about 5 years ago <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crying.gif" alt="" />... I have tried so hard to maintain healthy diets for all of my gliders since then. I have done research, research & more research. Unfortunately, although I give them the right foods/diet every night, I can't force them to eat the right things. In Pika's case, she has a habit of eating about 80% protein every night & very little of her fruits/veggies <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worried2.gif" alt="" />. Dr. West said that overeating proteins can inhibit calcium absorption & cause HLP... I now have to, somehow, ensure that Pika eats only about 25% protein each night with about 75% fruits & veggies. Tonight, I have offered her a huge slice of watermelon, a huge slice of cantelope & a dozen crickets. Since watermelon & cantelope are her favorite fruits, I'm hoping she'll glom on them instead of the crickets...
Well, I just checked on her, and she was eating the crickets, of course <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shakehead.gif" alt="" />... So I took them away from her. Hopefully she'll go over and start eating the fruit now instead...

Edited to add:
Just checked on her again... Instead of going over to eat the fruit, she went back to her nesting box... What am I going to do with her?!? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crying.gif" alt="" />


Edited by sugarglidersuz (01/25/06 08:44 PM)
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#79635 - 01/25/06 10:26 PM Re: Getting a Blood Sample from Glider... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm sorry to hear that Pika is having these issues, but very glad that you are on top of it.

2 comments/questions:
I have heard that to get a blood sample, it is best to try the petagium. Is this true? and was this suggested/tried?
And, if you put her on BML she wouldn't have as much of a choice to separate out the certain foods she only wants to eat. What do you think of that/does that sound viable?

Just ideas...and wanting to help.
bendiciones y besos dorados,
yeye

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#79636 - 01/26/06 02:47 AM Re: Getting a Blood Sample from Glider... [Re: ]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
[:"green"]yeye,
I don't know about getting blood from the patagium... I've not heard this before. (Anyone else know about this?)
As for the BML, I was already planning to make up a batch of it for feeding to her on Thursday night... Although in the past when I've made it, she wouldn't touch it at all. I'm going to try one of the variations to see if she'll like it better than the standard BML.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll let you know how they work out...
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#79637 - 01/26/06 03:19 AM Re: Getting a Blood Sample from Glider... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Awe I'm sorry to here about Pika, but atleast now you know what's wrong and can work towards a solution. My guys are picky eaters too. They will eat veggies, but really dislike fruit. They do really like yogurt. I definately don't know a whole lot about diets, but it looks like yogurt is 2:1 Calcium --Phos. I'm not sure where the whole protein fits in. But maybe Pika would enjoy some of that. Mine like vanilla best. It's so hard when they don't want to eat what they should because you so badly want to give them what they want. (That's why Giz isn't on a diet yet lol)

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#79638 - 01/26/06 07:09 AM Re: Getting a Blood Sample from Glider... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Suz does she like fruit slushies.. maybe make a mix with more fruit than protein so she'll taste the protein but it will have more fruit... or mash the worms and fruit all up together so she sees the worms but can't pick them out from the fruit???? I def wouldn't reccommend my diet now b/c it's a protein slushie basically with other items on the side. Best of luck hon <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Poor lil Pika... give her a kiss for me and if you need anything you know i'm only an hour away.

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#79639 - 01/26/06 11:16 AM Re: Getting a Blood Sample from Glider... [Re: ]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16744
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Suz, you just dont know how you and Pika are probably helping many many gliders right now by the choices you have made. For that I applaud and thank you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />

What diet do you currently have Pika on? I think it is normal for them to pick out all the proteins first, especially with spring around the corner. Amazing how it always comes back to diet...

Good work with your baby, and I do hope all turns around and she gets back to where she needs to be.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#79640 - 01/26/06 11:19 AM Re: Getting a Blood Sample from Glider... [Re: ]
sugeebaby Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 2113
Loc: Michigan
I agree with T try our diet. As piocky as my gliders have been when it comes to eating. Once I did the leadbeaters they lick the bowls clean. I also give them a fruit smoothie/slushy that Gliderz5 sent me. If you need the recipe let me know. Hope you can get her to start eating her fruit and veggies.
_________________________
Karen
President of The Glider Initiative
:bb: The Glider Crue :grey:

The Pampered Glider

The Glider Initiative
Have you educated someone today?



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#79641 - 01/26/06 04:59 PM Re: Getting a Blood Sample from Glider... [Re: ]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
[:"green"]I have been feeding my gliders a combination of MacPherson's diet (without cat food) and Darcy's diet... It seems to be working quite well for all the other gliders I have. Pika just zeroes in on the insects every night & eats little else (though she does love her Gliderade & Ensure <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />).
For tonight, I just made up a batch of Judie's BML... It smells a lot better than the regular BML, so we'll see if the gliders like it or not... I made up a batch of SweetGliders' Fruit Smoothy a couple of weeks ago. Do you think it will be okay to use that in combination with the BML? If so, I can also make up SweetGliders' Vegetable Relish to go alongside it. Otherwise, I'll just stick to the normal BML side dishes as outlined by Judie on her ToandFro site.

I picked up a bottle of Neocalglucon from Dr. West this afternoon to start supplementing Pika with. She wants me to give it to her once a day for the next two weeks, then run a calcium/phosphorus level check to see where it's at. I'll keep everyone posted.

In the meantime, I got a copy of the blood tests results... They are as follows:
SGOT (AST) [normal 46 - 179] @ 42 IU/L
SGPT (ALT) [normal 50 - 106] @ 63 IU/L
Total Bilirubin [normal 0.4 - 0.8] @ 0.2 mg/dL
Alakline Phosphatase @ 32 IU/L
Total Protein [normal 5.1 - 6.1] @ 6.4 g/dL
Albumin [normal 3.5 - 4.3] @ 3.0 g/dL
Cholesterol @ 94 mg/dL
BUN [normal 18 - 24] @ 31 mg/dL
Creatinine [normal 0.3 - 0.5] @ 0.3 mg/dL
[:"red"] Phosphorus [normal 3.8 - 4.4] @ 12.6 mg/dL
Calcium [normal 6.9 - 8.4] @ 10.6 mg/dL
[:"green"] Glucose 35 mg/dL
Sodium [normal 135 - 145] @ 153 mEq/L
Potassium [normal 3.3 - 5.9] @ 4.2 mEq/L
Chloride @ 110 mEq/L
[:"red"] CPK [normal 210 - 589] @ 2055 IU/L
[:"green"] Globulin @ 3.4 g/dL

The [:"red"] RED [:"green"] items are those that are of significant value in diagnosing the fact that Pika does have Secondary Hyperparathyroidism (aka Hind Leg Paralysis). Although other values are slightly high or low from the norm, they are not significant to this diagnosis.
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#79642 - 01/27/06 07:20 AM Re: Getting a Blood Sample from Glider... [Re: ]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
[:"green"]Judie is a genius!!! Pika & Cricky ate up almost all of their BML during the night... I am so thankful for Judie's version!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" />

I fed it to all of my gliders last night & they all ate it with gusto. I have to say that I was very skeptical, because in the past when I've tried the regular BML, none of them would touch it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I was holding Pika while putting it into their bowls last night. She lifted her tiny nose up in the air and sniffed, sniffed, sniffed... So I held my finger up to her & she licked the BML off of it! I almost fell over in shock <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />. I'm so excited & happy! What a breakthrough!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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