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#807612 - 07/15/09 02:01 PM RATIOS Calculating based on CA & P content LONG
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
I believe the calculation of the Ca:Ph by simply adding the two sides of the ratio then dividing by the total number of foods, as many folks currently are doing, gives an inaccurate and sometimes misleading calculation.

The AMOUNTS of calcium and phosphorus in each food selected are DIFFERENT. Just because you use an equal amount of two or three foods, adding the ratios and dividing does not work. It is necessary to add the Calcium and Phosphorus amounts in mg and then divide the totals to reach an accurate ratio.

For example:
Food “A” has 100 mg Ca and 50 mg P has a 2:1 ratio
Food “B” has 240 mg Ca and 120 mg P also has a 2:1 ratio

Now Food “C” has 100 mg Ca and 150 mg P so it has only a 0.66:1 ratio

Using the ratio only method adding Food “C” to a food with a 2:1 ratio 0.66 + 2 = 2.66 divided by 2 results in a 1.3:1 ratio.

Using a calculation based on mgs -

Food “C” with 100 mg Ca and 150 mg P combined with
Food “A” with 100 mg Ca and 50 mg P
Results in a total of 200 mg Ca and 200 mg P for a ratio of 1:1.

Next combine -
Food “C” with 100 mg Ca and 150 mg P with
Food “B” with 240 mg Ca and 120 mg P
Results in a total of 340 mg Ca and 270 P and a ratio of 1.2:1

Different food combinations - even if you have they have same two ratios to begin with can have a different RATIO when combined and calculated based on the amount of Ca and P contained in them.

Using a more specific example would be “mixed vegetables” assuming equal amounts of each vegetable in the mixture.

Corn has a ratio of 0.02:1 - 1 TBS contains 0.19 mg Ca and 8.57 mg P
Peas have a ratio of 0.2:1 - 1 TBS contains 2.27 mg Ca and 9.79 mg P
Carrots have a ratio of 0.9:1 - 1 TBS contains 2.64 mg Ca and 2.8 mg P
Green Beans have a ratio of 1:1 - 1 TBS contains 2.54 mg Ca and 2.61 mg P

The total - ratio addition method is 0.02 + 0.2 + 0.9 + 1 = 2.12 / 4 = 0.53:1 ratio

Calculating using mgs Ca is 0.19 + 2.27 + 2.64 + 2.54 = 7.64
P is 8.57 + 9.79 + 2.8 + 2.61 = 23.77
7.64 / 23.77 results in a 0.32:1 ratio


The USDA Nutritional Database gives the ratio for “mixed vegetables” as 0.4:1 based on the Calcium and Phosphorus amounts in mg.

Now some examples of adding Fruits to these mixed vegetables (assume you are feeding 4 gliders the above combination of vegetables totaling 4 TBS.

Cantaloupe has a ratio of 0.6:1 - 4 TBS contains 4.87 mg Ca and 7.25 mg P
plus the mixed vegetables - 4 TBS contains 7.64 mg Ca and 23.77 mg P
Total for 12.51 mg Ca and 31.02 mg P for a ratio of 0.4:1

Ratio only calculation for equal amounts of Cantaloupe (0.6:1) and the combined mixed vegetables (0.53:1) is 0.6 + 0.53 = 1.13 / 2 for a ratio of .56:1

Papaya has a ratio of 4.8:1 - 4 TBS contains 8.4 mg Ca and 1.75 mg P
plus the mixed vegetables - 4 TBS contains 7.64 mg Ca and 23.77 mg P
Total for 16.04 mg Ca and 25.52 mg P for a ratio of 0.63:1


Ratio only calculation for equal amounts of Papaya (4.8:1) and the combined mixed vegetables (0.53:1) is 4.58 + 0.53 = 5.11 / 2 for a ratio of 5.1:1

HERE YOU CAN SEE THE PROBLEM WITH RATIO ADDITION CALCULATIONS

The ratio for Papaya is very high due to its very small amount of Phosphorus but when combined with the mixed vegetables - it brings only slightly more calcium in mg than the total for the mixed vegetables and the extremely high amount of phosphorus in the mixed vegetables over rides the high ratio in the papaya when calculated using the mg amounts in the total combination.


OK, now you folks are scratching your heads, or have already run away screaming “I don’t do math!” or “Now I am totally confused!” - I do not like to do the math every time either so I spent MONTHS developing a calculator to do it for me. My diet Calculator - (an Excel spreadsheet) is located on my web page Gliderkids.com. It also includes the recognized glider diets because it is not only the fruits and vegetables that must be considered for the ratios - the main diet must be calculated also to get the overall ratio of food you are choosing for your gliders.

I have made every effort to make the calculations as accurate as possible. I have use the data from the USDA nutrition database online for each item. I chose to use the 100 gm portion values then calculated the wt in gms for 1 cup (using the USDA Nation Nutrient Database values) then set the calculation for TBS volume, as that is usually the measurement used for a single glider portion. As with any measurements of foods - there will be variations. A sliced apple and the same apple chopped would occupy different space when placed in a cup - but their gram weight would be the same. I do not think any of us weigh each portion fed to our gliders and in many cases we eyeball the 1 tbs volume for most fruits and veggies. The calculator is a tool to do the math based on gm/volume to give a best estimate of the nutrients we offer our gliders.
The calculator adds the calcium and phosphorus in mg then divides the total mg of each to give the combined ratio.

Of course we have no control over which glider eats their veggies or if one of the colony refuses to eat a particular item offered each night. We can only provide what we feel is a well planned diet and hope each glider chooses to eat the right amounts.

To use the diet Calculator (Excel Spreadsheet) you enter the amount of your selected recognized diet (BML, HPW etc.) that you are feeding in TBS (or a fraction, 1 tsp = .333 TBS) then enter the amount of the fruit and vegetables you are offering with the diet. At the top of the spread sheet the total Calcium, Phosphorus, the ratio, protein, sugar, fat, and fiber amounts for the total feeding will be calculated for you.

I have the spread sheet set to calculate by gm weight per 1 cup (USDA data base values) which is converted to gms per TBS (or fraction) based on 16 TBS per cup. By setting the calculations using wt/vol it calculates out to give the nutritional values in gms based on the volume used.

It is important to look at the AMOUNT of Calcium and Phosphorus in the volume of food being fed not just the RATIO. It is also important to consider the main part of the diet (BML, HPW etc) as well as the fruits & vegetables



NOTE: I have a concern about using the "Mixed Vegetable" commercial combinations - if you read the label most say Corn, Peas, Carrots, Green Beans. Using standard regulations for listing ingredients this means there is MORE Corn than Peas and more Peas than Carrots and Green Beans (the best ratio of the bunch) is the smallest volume in the ingredients. If you divide out the vegetables in one of these packages and measure each vegetable there is likely to be quite a difference in the amount of each in the combination as well as variation Brand to Brand. It cannot be assumed that a serving will contain equal amounts of each vegetable as calculated above. In my diet Calculator, I used the Nutrition data's amounts for mixed vegetables (RATIO = 0.4:1) but I expect an actual measurement for each item would give a lower ratio due to the amount of corn and peas in the mix.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#807639 - 07/15/09 03:15 PM Re: RATIOS Calculating based on CA & P content LONG [Re: CandyOtte]
TMP
Unregistered


I'm very glad you started this thread. Your answer alone will probably answer many questions. I've been reading so much about ratios and I think most people just add the ratios and divide. I'm glad you mentioned that it should be measured by the measurements in the food instead of the ratios. Thanks!

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#807650 - 07/15/09 03:32 PM Re: RATIOS Calculating based on CA & P content LONG [Re: ]
TMP
Unregistered


Also, is there a sheet that lists these ratios or amounts PER TBSP?

If not, I'm definitely going to start using your excel sheet to figure this stuff out.

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#807652 - 07/15/09 03:35 PM Re: RATIOS Calculating based on CA & P content LONG [Re: ]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
I'm not sure if there is another list out there that gives the Calcium and Phosphorus values - most just give the ratio.

Let me work on one. A lot of folks have trouble figuring out how to use my calculator. Maybe just a printable page would help.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#807654 - 07/15/09 03:40 PM Re: RATIOS Calculating based on CA & P content LONG [Re: CandyOtte]
lovely1inred
Unregistered


Ok...the math is stumping me but that's ok...I've long wondered why there is such an empasis on the ratio and not the amounts given. I mean, if you managed to give .2mg of calcium and .1mg of phosphorous...that'd be 2:1 ratio but surely not the right amount....

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#807725 - 07/15/09 05:34 PM Re: RATIOS Calculating based on CA & P content LONG [Re: ]
PriVe
Unregistered


_

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#807776 - 07/15/09 06:55 PM Re: RATIOS Calculating based on CA & P content LONG [Re: ]
josefine Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 2701
Loc: Perry, Iowa
sent you a pm
_________________________
Larry & Josefine Vodenik
2014 4 St
Perry,Iowa50220
515/321-6081cell#
j.vodenik@hotmail.com

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#808668 - 07/17/09 04:44 PM Re: RATIOS Calculating based on CA & P content LONG [Re: josefine]
josefine Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 2701
Loc: Perry, Iowa
so,how do we do it by mg? i really am quite stupid when it comes to this stuff.
talk @ ya L8R
_________________________
Larry & Josefine Vodenik
2014 4 St
Perry,Iowa50220
515/321-6081cell#
j.vodenik@hotmail.com

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#808671 - 07/17/09 04:52 PM Re: RATIOS Calculating based on CA & P content LONG [Re: ]
Kiiru Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 2969
Loc: Syracuse, NY
Originally Posted By: TMP
Also, is there a sheet that lists these ratios or amounts PER TBSP?

If not, I'm definitely going to start using your excel sheet to figure this stuff out.


http://files.meetup.com/768852/Ratios.pdf
tounge

You'll just have to do all the math to get it to a tbsp worth if you can't get Otte's tool to work. roflmao Now that would be a pain!
I think the easiest way to feed sugs fruit/veggies is to figure it all out then grind up/freeze them and feed a tbsp each each night. dunno

Jos - I'm going to use the list on the site I used as an example since it's easier for me to understand/easier to feed sugs with if you're lazy like me. roflmao Let's use 1/2 c. raspberries, 1/2 c. blueberries, and ohhhhh...3 c. papaya. (I know it's not very balanced or whatever but...)

1 c of raspberries = 30.7mg Calcium : 35.7mg Phosphorous
1 c of blueberries = 8.9mg Calcium : 17.8 mg Phosphorous
1 c of papaya = 33.6 mg Calcium : 7.0 mg Phosphorous

Now, we want 1/2 c blue berries and 1/2 c raspberries so you cut it in half. (30.7 divided by 2, 35.7 divided by 2...etc) and 3 c papaya so 33.6 x 3, 7.0 x 3

1/2 c raspberries = 15.35mg Ca : 17.85mg P
1/2 c blueberries = 4.45mg Ca : 8.9mg P
3 c papaya = 100.8mg Ca : 21mg P

Then you add the Ca mg up and the P mg up so..
Ca : 15.35 + 4.45 + 100.8 = 120.6
P : 17.85 + 8.9 + 21 = 47.75
That's 120.6mg Ca and 47.75mg P. (120.6 : 47.75)
Then divide 120.6 by 47.75 to get 47.75 to equal one. (if the P ratio was 31, you'd divide the Ca by 31 too...etc.)
So that would give you 2.52:1

Obviously, it wouldn't be healthy to feed alone but then you have to consider the ratios of your diet and the veggies too. What Otte came up with is essentially the same thing but it's broken down into tbsp servings so you can feed them a balanced selection of fresh fruits/veggies each night vs. grinding it all up and freezing it in ice cube trays. :3
_________________________
-Nicole
2 doves,1 dog,and 5 gliders...
* Yin and Yang
* Razzle, Tictac, and Kitkat - "The trio"

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#809292 - 07/19/09 01:12 PM Re: RATIOS Calculating based on CA & P content LONG [Re: Kiiru]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
I'm working on a PDF version that shows just the values for each item in 1 TBS amounts for those that would like to add the calcium & Phosphorus up themselves -

I need to combine the Fruits & Veggies page with the page in the calculator that lists the other foods that folks often feed separately (chicken, yogurt etc.)

This will give you a printable page if you wish to do the math yourself or if you cannot open the Excel Spreadsheet to use the calculator.

I hope to have it done in a couple of days (takes a good bit of tweaking to get it to a printable format then convert to PDF.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#809496 - 07/19/09 09:12 PM Re: RATIOS Calculating based on CA & P content LONG [Re: CandyOtte]
josefine Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 2701
Loc: Perry, Iowa
i will be patiently waiting. i'm having serious problems w/figuring out even just the basics,so i can imagine what you are having to do for us so we can understand it better.

nicole,thanks for clarify-ing for me.i do understand it now.
sometimes i've been known to be pretty 'slow up on top'!!!

my girls are already eating so much healthier,w/what you & misty have been able to accomplish. i just wish they'd start eating more,it is still less than what i want them to be eating. maggie is still in the 170's,& mollie is in the 160's,so they are still 'fluffy',just not as much as they were when we got them. i do hope that they will get back to eating 2 tblsp each,each nite. what they are doing is maybe eating 1 tblsp each,most of the time.
talk @ ya L8R
_________________________
Larry & Josefine Vodenik
2014 4 St
Perry,Iowa50220
515/321-6081cell#
j.vodenik@hotmail.com

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#809499 - 07/19/09 09:18 PM Re: RATIOS Calculating based on CA & P content LONG [Re: josefine]
TMP
Unregistered


Josefine - I'm having the same problem. Gizmo eats his HPW mix and then maybe 1tbsp of fruits/veggies. He's 10 weeks oop. Does anyone know at what age they should be eating 1tbsp of fruits AND 1tbsp of veggies??

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#810718 - 07/22/09 05:26 PM Re: RATIOS Calculating based on CA & P content LONG [Re: ]
IowaMisty Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 1228
Loc: USA
Candy, thanks for clarifying that for everyone. I know a lot of people are calculating incorrectly & I keep trying to tell them how to do it right, but it's nice to have it laid out in a thread.

You & I need to get together some time & combine our information. It seems we're both kind of working on some of the same things. I've been meaning to contact you but have just been insanely busy over the last month. Maybe after SGGA, things will calm down again a little bit. I'm actually thinking about making up a program to calculate everything for people. It'll be quite a bit of work but would hopefully be a lot easier for people to understand than a spreadsheet.

Originally Posted By: TMP
Josefine - I'm having the same problem. Gizmo eats his HPW mix and then maybe 1tbsp of fruits/veggies. He's 10 weeks oop. Does anyone know at what age they should be eating 1tbsp of fruits AND 1tbsp of veggies??


I've only ever had joeys this age in with other gliders, so it's hard to monitor exactly who is eating what. But 10 weeks OOP is still very young & I wouldn't expect him to be eating his full diet yet....maybe not for a few months even.

Misty

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#819928 - 08/09/09 08:15 PM Re: RATIOS Calculating based on CA & P content LONG [Re: IowaMisty]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
As promised, I have created a PDF file which shows the Calcium, Phosphorus, Protein, Sugar, Fat and Fiber content in MG for a wide variety of fruits and vegetables and other foods used to create glider diets.

This list shows the values for 1 tablespoon of each food to make it easier to compare the values.

If you wish to calculate a mixture of fruits and vegetables you can use the 1 TBS values and multiply for the volume you are using. 1 cup = 16 TBS

The usual glider diets are also included in the list with the values for the recommended portion for one glider serving.

The link to the PDF File is on the diet Calculator page on my web page. I hope this will be a useful tool for many of you.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#820209 - 08/10/09 11:07 AM Re: RATIOS Calculating based on CA & P content LONG [Re: CandyOtte]
TMP
Unregistered


Thank you so much for that list!!! Many kudos for all that hard work.

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#820291 - 08/10/09 01:04 PM Re: RATIOS Calculating based on CA & P content LONG [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Quote:
Ratio only calculation for equal amounts of Papaya (4.8:1) and the combined mixed vegetables (0.53:1) is 4.58 + 0.53 = 5.11 / 2 for a ratio of 5.1:1


If papaya is 4.8:1 and mixed vegies are .53:1 then your math is off.

4.8:1 + .53:1 = 5.33:2

Which is 2.665:1


Also, on your pdf, you have the following
Quote:
Values are for 1 TBS - if combining multiple
foods or larger volumes multiply values for
amounts needed. 1 cup=16 TBS 1/4 cup
= 2 TBS etc.


I just went and measured
using packed flour...there are 3 TBS in 1/4 cup.
using sugar (because it is granular)...there are 4 TBS in 1/4 cup
using water...there are 4 TBS in 1/4 cup.

These differences could throw off your calculations.

I understand since most diets say "1 TBS vegies and 1 TBS fruits" that you used the same form of measurements for your pdf tables. However, this is NOT a good way to measure things such as the fruits and vegies because it will vary so drastically. If I cut up (as an example) cantelope into 1/2" cubes, I will get less fruit in 1 tablespoon than if I cut it up into 1/8" inch cubes. The more accurate way to measure these things would be by weight.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#820299 - 08/10/09 01:17 PM Re: RATIOS Calculating based on CA & P content LONG [Re: Dancing]
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered


That is why I think it's always best to use weight.

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#820350 - 08/10/09 03:04 PM Re: RATIOS Calculating based on CA & P content LONG [Re: ]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
Thanks Dancing - I'll correct the 1/4 cup = 4 TBS typo. This error does not throw off the calculations in the table, but would confuse someone measuring out foods to using the table.

Yes ideally we should all weigh each serving of food we give our gliders and calculate based on the CA & P in mg for the number of grams of each food.

I do not think there are very many people who would be up weighing each food and doing the math although I am sure a few of you do.

The calculations (some columns are hidden) are actually based on the amount of each nutrient in 100 gm of each food From the Nutrition Data web site. I have taken the calculations from that data for the grams per cup and then calculated the TBS values based on those figures and the 100 gram values for each food item.

This is a TOOL to help those who are trying to figure out if they are coming close to meeting the goal of a 2:1 Ca:P ratio. It is similar to trying to read a human food label that tells you the jar has 8 ounces, a serving is 6 ounces to the jar contains 1 1/2 servings - then they proceed to give you the calories and nutrients for 1 serving - knowing full well folks will likely eat the whole jar and THINK the calories listed are for the jar not the serving.

I chose to use 1 TBS as the common measurement since that is what is recommended as a per glider serving for most foods we feed them. This TOOL is designed for the average glider owner to estimate the total values of the foods they are feeding. I do not think any of us are looking for precise - lab measured to the gram values. That is just not practical for any of us.

The main reason for using the table to calculate the TOTAL RATIO is to overcome the errors folks make adding ratios instead of adding the mg values for calcium and phosphorus then dividing.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#820355 - 08/10/09 03:10 PM Re: RATIOS Calculating based on CA & P content LONG [Re: CandyOtte]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
Teresa & Kris, if you would like to see the FULL spread sheet which shows the 100gm values, gms/cup and the calculated gms/TBS I will be happy to send it to you via Email.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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