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#831817 - 09/02/09 02:29 PM HPW + Calcium question
Zuki_Mom Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 325
Loc: Williamsburg, Ohio
Ok, I've been doing a LOT of work on diet stuff for my kids. I have the nutritional analysis of HPW and HPW by itself is only a 1.29:1 ratio of calcium to phosphorus, when added with the balanced fruits and veggies it becomes 1.8:1. I have been doing lots of math today trying to figure out the best way to get the HPW to be a balanced 2:1 ratio. I think I've got it, but I need input and people to check my math for me.

HPW Per serving (1.5 teaspoons)
Calcium-5.92mg
Phosphorus-4.56mg
Ratio-1.29:1

Ok, I changed the Per Serving values into for the entire batch.
-One batch=5 cups
-1 cup=16 tablespoons
-1 tablespoon=3 teaspoons
So in theory there are 160 servings per batch.
5.92*160=947.2mg
4.56*160=729.6mg

Ok moving to the Babyfood Apple Juice with Calcium
One serving is 186g
Per serving
Calcium-240mg
Phosphorus-15mg
Ratio-16:1

Ok, next I added the Calcium from the Babyfood Apple Juice to the HPW mix 240+947.2=1187.2mg, and then added the phosphorus 15+729.6=744.6. This brings the ratio up to a 1.59:1

Next I broke it back down to per serving.
Calcium 1187.2/160=7.42mg
Phosphorus 744.6/160=4.65mg

Calcium would go up by 1.5mg per serving
Phosphorus would go up by .09 per serving

The Nutritional Analysis of the HPW also gave the amounts of the HPW diet as a whole (served with balanced fruits and veggies)
Calcium-11.22
Phosphorus-6.2

I then added the difference of 1.5 to the calcium, because thats how much the calcium would go up, 11.22+1.5=12.7mg per serving.

I then added the difference of .09 to the phosphorus, because thats how much the phosphorus would go up, 6.2+.09=6.29.

The new ratio became 2.01:1

Anyone have any input on this? Is it a good thing? Did I do my math right? Would it be beneficial to use?

Please No one change their HPW diets based off this

thanks
_________________________
Tiffany

Glider mom to:
Nami, Zizi, Xavier, Askr, Gio, & Alice

Also mom to:
1 Dog-Evie
2 Cats-Apollo and Morpheous
2 Beautiful Skin Kids
angel For all my lost angels, Mom loves you angel

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#831826 - 09/02/09 02:54 PM Re: HPW + Calcium question [Re: Zuki_Mom]
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
I did a breakdown of just the cal:phos as well, but the total ratio(with 1 tablespoon of bee pollen, not 2) was 1:1. I wrote down all the work for people to check: http://justforfuzzies.com/HPW_Analysis

It has the individual cal:phos content of each ingredient and I also did it for boiled AND scrambled eggs since people do it both ways.

I love what you're doing. Kudos to you! I think that we really need to sit down and make a list of EXACT fruit/veggies mixed can be fed with HPW rather then leaving it all open as a free-for-all with no boundaries.

When a newbie comes along they'll see the HPW recipe and feed it as-written and, unfortunately, the way it's written puts no instructions on WHAT fruits/veggies to feed.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the calcium and phosphorous content isn't the only thing to look at. You also have to make sure you're not getting too much of the BAD stuff or too little of it. Too much vitamin C, K, A(just to name the couple I remember off the top of my head after talking with Bourbon about diets) can be bad for gliders.

Also, some veggies that are high in calcium are also high in oaxalates(Sp?), which can prevent the calcium from being absorbed. We're not sure yet if gliders can get that calcium or not(eucalyptus is high in oax., but the gliders eat it in the wild, so they MIGHT be able to still get the calcium...). So, what may look good on paper as being high in calcium, really might be LOW in calcium if that calcium can't be used.

See what I'm saying?

The best idea would be to talk to your vet about it and get their opinion. If your vet doesn't feed comfortable with their knowledge of glider diets, then try and find a vet that does, even if it's over the phone or via email. Many vets belong to an online community(VIN) so, even if they don't have the answers themselves, they can go there and get them for you. wink
_________________________
~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin

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#831829 - 09/02/09 03:01 PM Re: HPW + Calcium question [Re: Guerita135]
Zuki_Mom Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 325
Loc: Williamsburg, Ohio
blush Thanks, part of what I'm working on with the diet is an entire "book" of all known (or at least as many as I know) glider safe fruits, veggies, and other things and their nutritional content. Its taking FOREVER to do and is now over 200 pages :|

hug2 Thanks for the input, yeah, I forgot to look at what all else was in the baby juice.

I need to look for a vet I can talk to about the diet, unfortunately up to this point I have asked diet questions and gotten blank looks in return.
_________________________
Tiffany

Glider mom to:
Nami, Zizi, Xavier, Askr, Gio, & Alice

Also mom to:
1 Dog-Evie
2 Cats-Apollo and Morpheous
2 Beautiful Skin Kids
angel For all my lost angels, Mom loves you angel

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#831838 - 09/02/09 03:11 PM Re: HPW + Calcium question [Re: Zuki_Mom]
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
Wowzers! That sounds like quite the project you're taking on!

If you haven't already, you should use the USDA search engine for the nutritional content of the fruits/veggies. That's what I've been using and it's EXTREMELY helpful!

They also should have the info for the baby foods and such. wink That way you'll have more to work off of then just what's on the jar(which isn't much).

You're 3 hours south of me. We should just get together and make a day of researching diet stuff. roflmao
_________________________
~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin

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#831840 - 09/02/09 03:14 PM Re: HPW + Calcium question [Re: Guerita135]
CharmedSuggies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 4273
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Nicole, you have no idea!! I've seen the book and it's big but very informative!! I'd definitely put a copy in my library.

She will be at the OGG Nicole & was gonna bring her book so you can see it then!
_________________________
Melissa & Aaron

Brat Pack
Roxy, Eddie, Lily :bb:

Crabby Crew
Brutus Theodore, Hugo Bug, Lulu :wfb: :leu:

Akeesha, Orion & Niko :rtmo:

SFS
Bella Belle mlove


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#831844 - 09/02/09 03:15 PM Re: HPW + Calcium question [Re: Guerita135]
Zuki_Mom Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 325
Loc: Williamsburg, Ohio
grin the USDA website has been SO helpful! I wouldn't have made any headway at all if I didn't have it. Lol, I've finally been convinced that I have enough in the book for one time (information overload) and if anyone is actually interested in it I can add more to it smile

sounds fun to me! smile I can use all the help I can get! lol
_________________________
Tiffany

Glider mom to:
Nami, Zizi, Xavier, Askr, Gio, & Alice

Also mom to:
1 Dog-Evie
2 Cats-Apollo and Morpheous
2 Beautiful Skin Kids
angel For all my lost angels, Mom loves you angel

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#831872 - 09/02/09 03:53 PM Re: HPW + Calcium question [Re: Zuki_Mom]
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered


Personally... I think anyone wanting to play with ANY of the diets needs to first talk to the person who "created" the diet.. for HPW-Peggy BML-Bourbon.. so on. Once you start changing, adding, etc it is no longer that diet.

Tiffany I would LOVE to see your book!!

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#831890 - 09/02/09 04:32 PM Re: HPW + Calcium question [Re: ]
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: BabyLoveGliders
Personally... I think anyone wanting to play with ANY of the diets needs to first talk to the person who "created" the diet.. for HPW-Peggy BML-Bourbon.. so on. Once you start changing, adding, etc it is no longer that diet.

Tiffany I would LOVE to see your book!!


Agreed!

That's why BML is called BML(Bourbon's MODIFIED Leadbeater's) and not still Leadbeater's because once those changes were made, it was no longer Leadbeater's diet.

I would like to get my gliders on BML because it's one of the oldest diets and has already gone through the trial and error, but, unfortunately, my gliders disagree with my idea. roflmao

ALL diets go through a trial phase and need to be tweaked. It's just a part of dealing with a diet for an animal that will still don't everything about.
_________________________
~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin

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#831897 - 09/02/09 04:40 PM Re: HPW + Calcium question [Re: Guerita135]
CharmedSuggies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 4273
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
I already sent Peggy a message with this info on it for her review and opinion.
_________________________
Melissa & Aaron

Brat Pack
Roxy, Eddie, Lily :bb:

Crabby Crew
Brutus Theodore, Hugo Bug, Lulu :wfb: :leu:

Akeesha, Orion & Niko :rtmo:

SFS
Bella Belle mlove


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#831954 - 09/02/09 06:11 PM Re: HPW + Calcium question [Re: Zuki_Mom]
Gossamer Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/22/06
Posts: 1667
Loc: Long Island, NY
Why don't you just add a calcium supplement to the mix if you are concerned? This way the only change to the diet is extra calcium. I use a supp. made for humans.


Edited by Gossamer (09/02/09 06:20 PM)
_________________________
Jeannine

3 Cats (Spike, Kismet, Honeycat)
1 understanding Husband
1 WFB Neutered Glider boy - Grissom! (oop 8/7/06) :wfb:
1 BB Glider girl- Willows! (oop 1/7/07) :bb:

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#831972 - 09/02/09 06:50 PM Re: HPW + Calcium question [Re: Gossamer]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16733
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
I will post here what I always tell people when they ask me questions like this...

Take it to your vet and speak with your vet about it.

Write down all your concerns, expectations of the diet, pros and cons and discuss it with YOUR vet.

I am not a nutritionist, nor do I know exactly how much of each thing (vitamins, minerals, calcium etc) that a glider NEEDS to remain healthy and live a long life.

I truly believe that it will take each of us to do our own research and discuss with our vets their feelings on if a diet is a good diet or a poor diet. If they say a poor diet, ask why and tell them what it is that you SHOULD be looking for and how to find those things. thumb
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#831977 - 09/02/09 07:06 PM Re: HPW + Calcium question [Re: CharmedSuggies]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
Zuki Mom -

How are you adding the Apple Juice with Calcium? Are you adding it to the full recipe or are you substituting for the water.

The difference would be a change in the total volume of the combination.

I am not familiar with the baby juice with calcium. What size container does it come in? the Nutrition data site shows 1 oz equal to 28 grams so the 1 serving size on the database would be 6.75 oz.

Let me know how you are using the apple juice and I'll plug the info in my Data Calculator (excel spread sheet) and see how it compares.

The diet Calculator is on my web page (in my sig) and I have just added the Apple Juice with Calcium to the list of foods used to build glider diets. You can use the list to do the math for you if you want to tinker with your recipe some more.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#831982 - 09/02/09 07:16 PM Re: HPW + Calcium question [Re: Zuki_Mom]
wfryatt Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 02/20/06
Posts: 98
Loc: Mobile, AL
All of my Gliders have switch from BML to HPW earlier this year and I have seen a marked improvement in appearance.. However, I'm also concerned are they getting enough Calcium also..

I know one of the ways BML boost the calcium level in the diet is by blending up not only the eggs but the egg shells and I was wondering has anyone else thought about that?
_________________________
Weston Fryatt
Glider Dad to:
:grey: Gizmo, Velcro, Gu, Laurel & Hardy, Gus
:wfb: Sammy :bb: Mimi, Bella, Alexis, Kayla, Leia, Rose
gangel Badger

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#831996 - 09/02/09 07:40 PM Re: HPW + Calcium question [Re: wfryatt]
CharmedSuggies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 4273
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
I will talk more with Zuki_Mom & get the specifics from her. I have a vet appt the 10th and will take it into my vet, ask him about it and will post the results on this thread.
_________________________
Melissa & Aaron

Brat Pack
Roxy, Eddie, Lily :bb:

Crabby Crew
Brutus Theodore, Hugo Bug, Lulu :wfb: :leu:

Akeesha, Orion & Niko :rtmo:

SFS
Bella Belle mlove


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#832091 - 09/02/09 09:50 PM Re: HPW + Calcium question [Re: wfryatt]
lovely1inred
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: wfryatt
All of my Gliders have switch from BML to HPW earlier this year and I have seen a marked improvement in appearance.. However, I'm also concerned are they getting enough Calcium also..

I know one of the ways BML boost the calcium level in the diet is by blending up not only the eggs but the egg shells and I was wondering has anyone else thought about that?


Honestly I know next to nothing about HPW, but with BML the shell is no longer used. The new mixing method and other changes to the diet page reflect this. At least one of the concerns with using the shell was that some blenders might not mix it all the way down to a powder form, and then a stray shell fragment cause mouth problems, or even perforate an intestine if it got that far down. I asked Bourbon about it, that's what she told me, and that the little bit of added calcium is negligent compared to how much is being added from the rep-cal anyway.

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#832136 - 09/02/09 10:54 PM Re: HPW + Calcium question [Re: ]
josefine Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 2701
Loc: Perry, Iowa
there has been some work done on glider diets on ottemom's forum,south east sugar gliders,it is really good reading.
we all want the best meals we can find for our kids,& using candy's diet calculator on the excel spreadheet has been about the best so far,imo,presented to us.
my girls aren't eating as well as they used to,& it seems their energy level has dropped some,too.mixing things up by way of fruits & veggies i feel are healthful for them,we just need to make sure that once the actual diet is getting revamped,that it will be better for the gliders digestive systems than what they are eating now.
a new book,w/all studies recorded by gc members,would be a + to anyones library.something w/quick reference to articles mentioned here,by way of diets would be most invaluable,also.
talk @ ya L8R
_________________________
Larry & Josefine Vodenik
2014 4 St
Perry,Iowa50220
515/321-6081cell#
j.vodenik@hotmail.com

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#832139 - 09/02/09 11:13 PM Re: HPW + Calcium question [Re: josefine]
gliderma Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5402
Loc: Michigan
Is there such a thing as an animal nutritionist? The zoo's must have someone like that or an equivalent to figure out the dietary needs of all the animals. Maybe we could consult someone like that?
_________________________
Lynn Martel
616-272-4374
989-400-5686

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#832221 - 09/03/09 07:25 AM Re: HPW + Calcium question [Re: Srlb]
Zuki_Mom Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 325
Loc: Williamsburg, Ohio
Originally Posted By: Srlb
Take it to your vet and speak with your vet about it.

Write down all your concerns, expectations of the diet, pros and cons and discuss it with YOUR vet.

I am not a nutritionist, nor do I know exactly how much of each thing (vitamins, minerals, calcium etc) that a glider NEEDS to remain healthy and live a long life.

I truly believe that it will take each of us to do our own research and discuss with our vets their feelings on if a diet is a good diet or a poor diet. If they say a poor diet, ask why and tell them what it is that you SHOULD be looking for and how to find those things. thumb


I'd love to... Except all the vets I've spoken to about the diet just give me a blank look like they have no idea what I'm talking about, once I find a vet that will discuss diet and things with me it would be great, I want to know the opinion of more experienced people. So I post here. smile

Originally Posted By: Gossamer
Why don't you just add a calcium supplement to the mix if you are concerned? This way the only change to the diet is extra calcium. I use a supp. made for humans.


I've thought about that, but I didn't have the specific stats for the human calcium supplement. I'm open to suggestions, I just want to make sure that all my kids get enough calcium in their diet.

Originally Posted By: OtteMom
How are you adding the Apple Juice with Calcium? Are you adding it to the full recipe or are you substituting for the water.

The difference would be a change in the total volume of the combination.

I am not familiar with the baby juice with calcium. What size container does it come in? the Nutrition data site shows 1 oz equal to 28 grams so the 1 serving size on the database would be 6.75 oz.


I used the USDA website and used their stats for one serving size which is 186 grams which I believe is the 6.75 oz. I haven't used it yet, I was getting opinions on it to see if this was actually a good idea. I started yesterday by looking for something to be used in place of the water, but I think the apple juice would need to be used in combonation with the water (please correct me if I'm wrong).
_________________________
Tiffany

Glider mom to:
Nami, Zizi, Xavier, Askr, Gio, & Alice

Also mom to:
1 Dog-Evie
2 Cats-Apollo and Morpheous
2 Beautiful Skin Kids
angel For all my lost angels, Mom loves you angel

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#832267 - 09/03/09 10:23 AM Re: HPW + Calcium question [Re: Zuki_Mom]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
Tiffany, take a look at my diet Calculator. (on my web page) The spread sheet page with items used for staple diets allows you to play around with ingredients "ON PAPER" to see how the diet changes with different additions. Quantities are entered in 1 TBS amounts except the vitamin suppliments are entered in Tsp.

I have developed a diet I call a Blended diet for my gliders. It contains the same ingredients as BML except the Wheat Germ and vitamins. I use Bee Pollen and HPW Powder to provide the necessary vitamins and a small amount of human grade calcium carbonate to bring the calcium up to a 2.5 ratio. This amount of calcium allows the addition of a wide variety of fruits and vegetables while still keeping the over all ratio close to 2:1.

The results of my combination is more calcium than the standard HPW recipe but only about half the calcium found in BML which has a 3.5:1 ratio. The calcium in BML is mostly from the large (In my opinion) amount of RepCal and its purpose is to provide extra calcium to match the pitiful amount in the standard frozen mixed vegetables recommended for use with BML. (Most mixed vegetables are way over half peas and corn)

I have discussed my Blended diet with my vet and she said it appeared to have all the nutrients needed for my gliders. I would love to have other folks share it with their vets to get their thoughts on it as well.

I have a printable PDF information page on the Blended diet on my web page (in my sig) for anyone that would like to look it over.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#832386 - 09/03/09 01:45 PM Re: HPW + Calcium question [Re: CandyOtte]
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered


That's fabulous Candy! I have a vet appointment tomorrow.. is it ok with you if I take him a copy?

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