Sugar Glider Community Calendar

Please click here to see larger view
Articles
More coming soon!!
Today's Birthdays
Rebecca, TheGliderNinja
Featured Member
Registered: 09/05/15
Posts: 144
Last 10 Posts
Round 3 the swelling starts
by mechnut450
2 minutes 1 second ago
Custom Cage Liners Machine Wash & Dry
by gr8pots
17 minutes 16 seconds ago
Riding on back?
by Ladymagyver
Today at 04:17 AM
Joey or Full grown
by josefine
Yesterday at 11:30 PM
Joeys from Lucky You Gliders
by Lynsie
Yesterday at 01:11 PM
Joeys from Lucky You Gliders
by Lynsie
Yesterday at 01:10 PM
Joeys from Lucky You Gliders
by Lynsie
Yesterday at 01:10 PM
Let's see your cages!
by KarenE
Yesterday at 10:29 AM
a strange Diabetic question
by mechnut450
Yesterday at 09:08 AM
How could I help this glider?
by Feather
08/15/17 06:31 PM
Google+

Facebook
Join Us On Facebook
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#834391 - 09/07/09 02:34 AM Aflatoxin discussion
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
To continue from Nicole's thread ;

Originally Posted By: Chris_R
Im pretty sure you can sample the liver and get aflatoxin levels...but its pricey and only a handful of places can do it...

Apparently an ELISA test can help determine Aflatoxin exposure.

As far as a general liver sample, I do not necessarily know if this is true. Although Aflatoxin causes changes/damage in the liver, my understanding is that even with histopathology is run on liver or other tissues, the diagnosis of Aflatoxicosis is not made from direct evidence of Aflatoxin (that it is found in tissue samples) but the condition of the liver, other organs, and anecdotal evidence that Aflatoxin is a common cause of liver damage and tumors. dunno
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

Top
#834408 - 09/07/09 04:21 AM Re: Aflatoxin discussion [Re: sugarlope]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
I know you were fairly new on the scene when Dr Bruce and Ellen lost many of their gliders, the links for that horrible period is in the archives.. which also includes what the necropsies had to say.
aflatoxins... what it looks like on a necropsy?

as for the information being "old" or new..

if it hasn't been brought out, that this can be passed to the offspring, and someone else knew about it.. what would it be called?

also which "I" was not aware of those that handle contaminated feeds can get it airborne.

AFLATOXINS AND AFLATOXICOSIS

and I guess the credentials can be questioned regarding who wrote the article
so here is the link for that page

Who is Dr.Thrasher ?

Quote:
Characteristic changes occur in liver which can be confirmed by microscopic examination.


which came from
AFLATOXINS and ANIMAL HEALTH by Dr. Gary Osweiler
Veterinary Diagnostic Laboratory


fact is, in doing research on aflatoxins, the toxins are injected right into the liver, so that the changes in the liver can be noted,

is there really a question as to whether any gliders have died of aflatoxin ?? or if that aflatoxin can be passed to offspring??? That possibilities may exist that many of the liver issues "couldn't possibly" be aflatoxin related?

In Humans this may not be a big issue, in fact it is rare but for the animals, it is a very real problem.

I made a statement due to the finding of some papers and to be honest with you, I now have a head swimming with questions of possibilities.

when you have issues not just nicoles but others as well, where the cause isn't found, you have to look at all possibilities.

we have 3 choices, we can pretend that those "possibilities" don't exist, or we can
look at those "possibilities.. or we can sit back and wait to see if others later on find out that these possibilities are a reality.


_________________________
Baybe,My Roots

SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

321-331-1608

Top
#834434 - 09/07/09 08:08 AM Re: Aflatoxin discussion [Re: Bourbon]
Chris_R Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 310
Loc: Northwest Missouri
Not fair!!!! I've had a total of about 3 hours sleep because my brain has been going on this aflatoxin thing..I got up early and was doing some reading...I did find this article

http://www.vin.com/PublicCE/NUTR101-0807/Library/JAVMA.pdf

make sure to note page 3 second paragraph on the right!!!

Top
#834440 - 09/07/09 08:30 AM Re: Aflatoxin discussion [Re: Chris_R]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16733
Loc: St. Johns, Florida


Quote:
something we just found out, is that aflatoxin can be passed to it's offspring through the dna, this is found in humans as well as animals. this in itself, puts us all at risk when we have no knowledge of the histories, and even if we do, there is still the risks that this is passed down,


Quote:
we are finding that symptoms of compromised DNA points to things like early death with liver disease, smaller births, as well as many other symptoms, the labs don't automatically check for aflatoxin, it has to be requested, which opens far too many doors for interpetation, without necropsies being done, and tests being requested, we have no clue if this could be related to aflatoxins.


Quote:
I made a statement due to the finding of some papers and to be honest with you, I now have a head swimming with questions of possibilities.


Once again Bourbon, now that you have several of our heads filled with questions, you stated above YOU made the statement, yes you did, but previously you stated WE...I asked a question that has still not been answered, please share...

Who are you working with? Any vets on board yet?

Im not talking about the vets that are doing the writing, I mean are you actually working with one. One that Tim will be able to call and discuss this stuff with?) Im thinking Tim is going to go crazy when I go in to have a couple boys neutered next week with all I will be taking him...
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love« Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


Top
#834445 - 09/07/09 08:36 AM Re: Aflatoxin discussion [Re: Chris_R]
Chris_R Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 310
Loc: Northwest Missouri
Bourbon...

I dont think that aflatoxin can "attach" to the DNA sequencing and "grow" in the offspring...What Im thinking is.....

Aflatoxin in a "chronic dose" can damage that part of the animals DNA sequence thus causing possible genetic issues in offspring? Is that what you are trying to say here? I know that its theory but I dont know that it is a proven fact yet.....

Top
#834454 - 09/07/09 09:21 AM Re: Aflatoxin discussion [Re: Chris_R]
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered


Yes Chris.. I *think that's what she mean.. B correct me though if I'm wrong and you have another theory?

Top
#834499 - 09/07/09 11:33 AM Re: Aflatoxin discussion [Re: ]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
I have read Ellen's post, but again, it is anecdotal evidence on the presence of Aflatoxin. I completely agree that Aflatoxin can cause liver damage (and damage to other organs) through a single dose (it depends on the animal as to what this dose is, as some have a lower threshold than others) or through chronic exposure. I am not questioning that. There is plenty of research to support that through animal tests on rats, pigs, cows, monkeys and poultry. These animals were often fed food with aflatoxin doses varying in level of toxicity and liver damage and some certain kinds of cancer were commonly found.

My questions are more directed at the fact that you can't seem to find the actual toxin in their system after they are exposed. Which would bring into question it's likelihood of being passed on to offspring or even as a food source in the initially exposed animal (other than milk) after exposure is even possible.

There are also different kinds of aflatoxin (and different toxicity concerns with each) and aflatoxin IS passed through milk production to nursing animals (it can also pass the placental barrier, which does not relate to sugar gliders, but I thought worth mentioning). If a mother ingests Aflatoxin while she is carrying/nursing this will be passed on to baby and can cause such things as low birth weight and I wonder to developmental issues, or liver injuries at that time as well. question

I DO wonder if a lot of what we see may be aflatoxin related (liver issues, carcinomas of various organs). BUT because it is a toxin and not a living organism, I do not remotely believe that it can be passed to future generations genetically. Which brings to bear, how are so many being exposed?

Something to realize, is just as we were discussing the prevalence of parasites in our environment, so should we be discussing the prevalence of aflatoxin and other mycotoxins. Aflatoxin is limited in human grade food to a certain level, but that is only during the testing phase. Aspergillus can (does) grow on grains, nuts, etc. throughout the pre-consumer process and is likely higher in many of the foods that we use. Human have a higher tolerance than most other animals.

Edit: I have also read that inhaling the toxin can cause the same issues - this is a type of direct exposure.

I should also say, I don't know if the DNA disruption that Aflatoxin can cause can cause a genetic predisposition to a lower toxin threshold or genetic predisposition to have a higher incidence of liver problems. None of us (here) know that. I just want to be very careful to know how/or if problems can continue in a line from previously exposed animals. But the toxin itself, cannot be passed on.


Edited by sugarlope (09/07/09 11:41 AM)
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

Top
#834515 - 09/07/09 12:35 PM Re: Aflatoxin discussion [Re: sugarlope]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
[If a mother ingests Aflatoxin while she is carrying/nursing this will be passed on to baby and can cause such things as low birth weight and I wonder to developmental issues, or liver injuries at that time as well. question[/quote]

okay stay with me on this, exactly my point in all of this.

this is the one paragraph I can't seem to get passed.

Quote:
Domestic animals (pets and agricultural), monkeys and laboratory rats and mice have been the subject of a large body of research on the adverse effects of aflatoxins (particularly B1). These effects include adducts and mutations, cancer, immunosuppression, lung injury and birth defects. Also, aflatoxins have been shown to interact with DNA (nuclear and mitochonndrial adducts) and polymerases responsible for DNA and RNA synthesis.



okay if the toxin, enzyme whatever "polymerses" therefore causing a change in the DNA/RNA processes ... and if it is passed through the milk etc...

and if it has already shown that that passing causes problems early on in their growth and development.. then SOME changes had to be made somewhere..

"in my head" like a drug addicted child borne from an addicted parent, the problems that child has is lifelong, also a toxin entering the system somewhat..

okay then we have to think.. can those issues also be passed on?? we already know that it can cause 1st offspring issues.. the question still remains whether or not the future offspring could be affected..

and this is something that we may never know due to the environmental issues that anyone could incur up to their breeding..



Edited by sugarlope (09/07/09 04:48 PM)
Edit Reason: edited with permission
_________________________
Baybe,My Roots

SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

321-331-1608

Top
#834523 - 09/07/09 12:51 PM Re: Aflatoxin discussion [Re: Bourbon]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
Originally Posted By: Bourbon
okay if the toxin, enzyme whatever "polymerses" therefore causing a change in the DNA/RNA processes ... and if it is passed through the milk etc...

and if it has already shown that that passing causes problems early on in their growth and development.. then SOME changes had to be made somewhere..

I don't disagree, this would be primary exposure though (to Aflatoxin M1 through the milk). I agree that this could also likely mean that the joey will have issues, or at least a predisposition to such things as liver damage and cancer - again though, this is on the basis of primary exposure to the toxin which also means that the mother is actively ingesting it at the time.

Quote:
okay then we have to think.. can those issues also be passed on?? we already know that it can cause 1st offspring issues

I am just reiterating here - this would not be first offspring, this would still be direct contact (so 1st level exposure). But I do think I understand your point better;
Quote:
.. the question still remains whether or not the future offspring could be affected..

This is something I am trying to find out as well, how much of the DNA, or what part of the DNA is affected. If it changes the synthesis of DNA/RNA (and maybe only in a certain way) than it is possible that it only affects the animal that was directly exposed.

Does Aflatoxin actually cause gene mutation (which could be passed on) or does it only disrupt the DNA where it settles in the exposed animal. dunno
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

Top
#834536 - 09/07/09 01:33 PM Re: Aflatoxin discussion [Re: sugarlope]
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered



Top
#834541 - 09/07/09 01:39 PM Re: Aflatoxin discussion [Re: ]
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered


Thomas Kensler, Ph.D. is a professor at John Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. His research focuses on the molecular mechanisms involved in the development of cancers linked to exposure to environmental carcinogens. This research has led to potential chemopreventative strategies for liver cancer in populations at high risk for aflatoxin exposure.


Quote:
Aflatoxin is a very lipid soluble molecule so that when we ingest it, it's rapidly absorbed. And it goes first to the liver where there are enzymes that will chemically biotransform it into a very reactive chemical, which attacks with very high preference, our DNA, causing damage to that DNA, mutations, perhaps in genes that enhance our susceptibility to cancer production. Aflatoxin is also a very cytotoxic molecule so it will directly kill some of our liver cells creating a void, if you will, that causes the remaining liver cells to replicate and perhaps grow at a faster rate than we would like. The combination of DNA damage and cell proliferation triggers the liver cancer process.

Top
#834574 - 09/07/09 02:53 PM Re: Aflatoxin discussion [Re: ]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
Thank you for the links Kris.

Quote:
Gene mutation in a cell can result in uncontrolled division called cancer. Exposure of cells to certain chemicals and radiation increases mutations and thus the chance of cancer.

http://teachercenter.insidecancer.org/view/Causes%20and%20Prevention/989/Causes,%20Mold:%20Aflatoxin.html

This is part of what I am wondering about - just as damage/mutation can occur from exposure to UV in skin cells and cause cancer, so can toxins on the liver. But the damage in skin cells does not become a mutation in every cell in the animal (thus it cannot be passed on to future generations unless the mutation occurs at the gamete level, which may be possible, I don't know).

Genetically, of course, some of us are predisposed to certain types of cancer and I imagine this is true for gliders as well (i.e. some gliders may be more likely to have severe liver damage from lower amounts of aflatoxin than others). dunno
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

Top
#834734 - 09/07/09 07:29 PM Re: Aflatoxin discussion [Re: sugarlope]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
Gretchen, Kris, you have pms links included

LOL happy reading..
_________________________
Baybe,My Roots

SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

321-331-1608

Top
#834737 - 09/07/09 07:33 PM Re: Aflatoxin discussion [Re: Bourbon]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16733
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Once again Bourbon, now that you have several of our heads filled with questions, you stated above YOU made the statement, yes you did, but previously you stated WE...I asked a question that has still not been answered, please share...

Who are you working with? Any vets on board yet?

Im not talking about the vets that are doing the writing, I mean are you actually working with one. One that Tim will be able to call and discuss this stuff with?) Im thinking Tim is going to go crazy when I go in to have a couple boys neutered next week with all I will be taking him...
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love« Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


Top
#834770 - 09/07/09 08:32 PM Re: Aflatoxin discussion [Re: sugarlope]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: sugarlope


I DO wonder if a lot of what we see may be aflatoxin related (liver issues, carcinomas of various organs). BUT because it is a toxin and not a living organism, I do not remotely believe that it can be passed to future generations genetically. Which brings to bear, how are so many being exposed?



After much thought on this, I wonder if the reason so many are exposed is because so many of us use the SAME "vendors". There are a few that are used more than others and word passes on, more people use the same again. There are certain products that are purchased (such as mealworms) that are produced by the masses. This includes everything from bedding materials some use to bugs, honey, cereal type snacks, pine nuts, peanuts or anything that can contain aflatoxins.


The time of year, region and humidity factors (just to name a few) might play into how much aflatoxins are in our air. What about a leak in our home, mold issues..this could be from rain or plumbing. Insulation getting wet, rotting walls, roofs, etc.

Although we are TOLD by certain vendors when we ask, that they take all precautions, how do we REALLY know?

I stopped feeding mealworms over a year ago, I'm too scared to bother with them anymore. It's not only how "we" keep them, but what about where they were raised to begin with?
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

Top
#834809 - 09/07/09 10:02 PM Re: Aflatoxin discussion [Re: Bourbon]
7glider7
Unregistered



OK, I have been procrastinating on planning lessons and reading these articles, so let me translate some of this science jargon since I have a strong biology background.

What the aflatoxins do is they attack the DNA, particularly DNA in the liver. These DNA attacks can cause cancerous changes in the liver. Polymerases are simply enzymes that help in the reproduction of DNA and RNA (which have to be reproduced whenever a cell divides). Messing up polymerases is one way that aflatoxins may cause cancerous changes in the liver.

These cancerous changes would NOT BE PASSED TO OFFSPRING unless the changes occurred in A) the sperm cells in a male glider, or B) the egg cells in a female glider. ONLY GENETIC MUTATIONS THAT OCCUR IN THE GERM LINE (sperm or egg cells) CAN BE PASSED TO BABIES GENETICALLY.
Sorry, had to make that clear because I keep hearing over and over again that aflatoxosis can be passed to offspring, and as a biology person this has not sat well with me since I could not fathom any way in which this could biologically occur. Now I see where the confusion is coming from. Keep in mind that the only genes being passed to a baby are the 23 chromosomes in a sperm and the 23 chromosomes in an egg, so unless the aflatoxin attacks these cells, the baby will not have any carcinogenic mutations.

Now it IS POSSIBLE that if aflatoxins affected other body systems (say, for instance, mammary glands and got in milk), that the mom could then pass aflatoxins directly to the baby from nursing.

It's also possible that if aflatoxins are affecting other parts of the mom, like her reproductive system, that it could cause negative changes in the environment of the womb and result in changes in the baby (like lower birth weights). Bourbon, this is similar to what you were describing with drug addicts and their babies. Although they are not necessarily passing genetic mutations down, they are changing their body chemistry, and thus changing the environment in which the baby develops, and thus can impact the baby.

However, I'd like to point out again, these are just possibilities and none of the articles discuss these environmental effects directly.

So, while environmental passage of aflatoxins from mom to baby are possible, DNA passage of aflatoxins is essentially impossible unless the mutation took place in the sperm or egg. While the articles mention the liver, kidneys, etc. being affected, there is no mention of sperm or eggs that I can see.

Hope this clears up some of the biology confusion!

Top
#834825 - 09/07/09 10:53 PM Re: Aflatoxin discussion [Re: ]
Trigger Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 3970
Loc: Spring, Texas
Correct Jen, in the study that I have that does mention the sperm and eggs there were no changes affected by aflatoxin.

Only the host and the in vitro/nursing young of animals were affected. NOTE: none of the studies I have found are in marsupials, much less sugar gliders and the effects on the hosts do vary depending on the susceptibility of that individual host.( rats are sometimes affected by certain aflatoxin when hampsters are not,etc)
_________________________
╗-(»`v┤»)-╗MO MONEY!╗-(»`v┤»)-╗
kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
www.jensfuzzyfriends.com

Top
#835057 - 09/08/09 01:19 PM Re: Aflatoxin discussion [Re: Trigger]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
That you Jen and Jennifer for expressing (much more clearly) the thoughts I have had in my head about this. These are the things I have read and understood as well.

From what I have read so far (I haven't read the links yet Bourbon, but thank you for them!) It has been shown in several species of animal that Aflatoxin can be present in milk produced by a mother that is actively ingesting the toxin at the time of the milk production. In cows (people and other animal, so we assume gliders as well) Aflatoxin is metabolized into M1 or M2 (depending on if the animal ingested B1 or B2) and passed on through the milk produced at that time.
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

Top
#835286 - 09/08/09 09:24 PM Re: Aflatoxin discussion [Re: sugarlope]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
okay please I have spoken directly to some of you, so if I don't say this right please someone help clarify my intentions..

Thank you Jen.. I was so hoping you would come in and help us understand some of this..

okay some of the things still in my head..

although now a possible test (elisa) it is still fairly new, and limited at that.. just as everything else, at least it is a start..

Gretchen my apologies, I knew elisa was being used by the labs after death, I found something that showed they are also using it on biopsy samples of the liver before as well.

but many of the labs are using a different test now, due to the limitatins of the elisa. the elisa is less expensive, but I guess you get what you pay for..

I am wondering if anyone can find the "cellular" and mutating changes that take place from point a to point d..

like we know that that m1 "changes" metabolizes to b1.. and when passed through to the offspring there has been evidence of m1 in the urine samples of the neonatal recipitants. showing that at least at some point some of this gets passed out through the watse, flushing in other words, but not before the reminants do damage again at the cellular level,

so understanding the path or changes that are all taking place. (as far as what is know to date) will help me and others understand more the flow...

also keeping in mind, could there be mutations, or changes that we (us) are not aware of, that when it get processed through the first offspring that could be affecting other parts.. when the necropsys and tests on the livers are being done, on mother then offspring they are still finding the toxin, but could there be other mutations caused from the reactions of the blood, milk etc.. that we may not be looking at?
_________________________
Baybe,My Roots

SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

321-331-1608

Top
#835308 - 09/08/09 10:20 PM Re: Aflatoxin discussion [Re: Bourbon]
7glider7
Unregistered


Here is a link to a fairly decent ELISA explanation. ELISA has been in use for quite some time, although I'm not sure how long it's been in use for detecting aflatoxins:

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/E/Elisa.html

Something like an ELISA test would be far more conclusive than just examining the liver during a necropsy. The problem with simple examination is that judging by the articles, what a doctor would see is a hardening of the liver and a proliferation of ducts and other types of tissue, which is indicative of myotoxin exposure, probably aflatoxin, but doesn't really prove it 100% for certain. An ELISA test WOULD prove for certain that aflatoxins were present.

Bourbon, I agree that it would be great to understand the exact mechanism. However, it's unlikely that they will be able to figure it out...my mom is recovering from breast cancer treatment and I think about how many millions of dollars they are pouring into trying to figure out how those mutations work at a cellular level with limited success...it is very difficult to figure out inside a cell exactly how something gets from point a to point d. Actually, I am surprised at how MANY articles there are that are very specific about how aflatoxins affect specific tissues and DNA. In addition, it's probably pretty safe to generalize the studies about cattle and rats to gliders since the effects on the body seem quite consistent among the different animals exposed.

My recommendation would be continue searching the literature about aflatoxin mechanisms studied in other species, and it is probably a very similar cellular chain of events in gliders.

Feel free to PM me with biology jargon if you find some good periodicals and you don't see me on the thread...school is just starting up...please do recall that I'm on Pacific time though so I typically go to bed by 9pm at the latest if you have my number and you call smile

Top
#835329 - 09/08/09 11:20 PM Re: Aflatoxin discussion [Re: Bourbon]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
Originally Posted By: Bourbon
like we know that that m1 "changes" metabolizes to b1..

I just wanted to clarify this for anyone reading along - it is the reverse. M1 is a metabolite of B1 (M2 is a metabolite of B2). Meaning that when an animal/human ingests B1 or B2, their body metabolizes (changes to oversimplify) those types of Aflatoxin into a new type of Aflatoxin - M1 or M2 (the M forms only occur in dairy). M1 is not generally considered as dangerous as B1, but it certainly still can have a great affect on the liver and other organs of the body.
http://www.biopure.at/biopure-index/datasheets/mdc/Aflatoxin_M1.htm

I wish I had a stronger scientific background to understand more of what I am reading. ohwell

But Bourbon, I *think* I now understand what you meant when you said that Aflatoxin turns into a toxin when it is introduced to the body (I know, not exactly what you said, but that was the gist, right?)

So in the body, AFB1 turns into AFB1-8,9-epoxide and this is what attaches to and/or disrupts DNA and what is actually carcinogenic, not the raw Aflatoxin? (am I understanding this correctly)?

So, ok we technically have a test for 'proof' of exposure to Aflatoxin, but I don't know anyone who is going to go out and get their glider's liver biopsied to check, while they are still alive. So we are basically still in the same boat of having nothing to test for it until a necropsy is performed (as we talked about earlier). BUT if the ELISA is a way to absolutely confirm Aflatoxin vs another toxin or mycotoxin, I still think this would be a step in the right direction. dunno

If you guys can make sense of this, please explain it to me;
http://carcin.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/15/8/1737

So I am understanding Bourbon's point better, I think - It isn't that she is suggesting the Aflatoxin itself passes down generationally, but that when the epoxide attaches and disrupts the DNA, that the synthesis of that new DNA could be a problem. (Go ahead and correct me if I am still misunderstanding). BUT even if this were true I still strongly feel that this change/affect would not be system/organism wide (how do you change the DNA of every cell in the body)? As Jen said above, if this mutagenic event occured at the gamete level, then I agree that it would pass on genetically/generationally. But we know that the toxin tends to affect certain organs much more significantly than others. Even if the damage spreads because those affected cells migrate and cause a growth or damage elsewhere, this still would not constitute a genetic mutation for the entire organism that can be passed to the following generations.

Am I making sense to anyone, or is it just in my own head?
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

Top
#835351 - 09/09/09 02:23 AM Re: Aflatoxin discussion [Re: sugarlope]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
your making perfect sense to me.. LOL..yes that is what I am saying...

okay Kris, change your screen name.. if not at least I will.. personally..

SPAWN...

lol


Great article
http://teachercenter.insidecancer.org/browse/Causes%20and%20Prevention/

it sure explained a lot. but... "spawned" more questions, which means we are headed in the right direction.

Dr Bruce told me, if I don't have more questions than when I started, and I don't have a serious long term headache while doing it, that I am not researching correctly.

someone else told me, you know when you are doing the right thing, when you learn to love those long term headaches. and you spend more time looking for answers to the problems, than looking for a way to cure the headache.
_________________________
Baybe,My Roots

SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

321-331-1608

Top
#835375 - 09/09/09 06:26 AM Re: Aflatoxin discussion [Re: Bourbon]
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered


Quote:
okay Kris, change your screen name.. if not at least I will.. personally..

SPAWN...

lol


roflmao

Top
#835506 - 09/09/09 11:32 AM Re: Aflatoxin discussion [Re: ]
khyricat
Unregistered


B-

this is a lot of food for thought and I will have to head off and do more research on the subject, but not till this weekend- I am on a lunch break on campus right now and headed back into a full day orientation today and more tomorrow and Fri is the first day of lecture- and I have pre-class homework already emailed by one of the profs.

Amie

Top
#838761 - 09/15/09 08:38 PM Re: Aflatoxin discussion [Re: ]
7glider7
Unregistered


Hey guys,

I was re-reading some of the links because this really caught my attention and I want to revise what I said previously.

Previously I said that there was no way for parents to GENETICALLY pass aflatoxins on to their offspring. This statement is still correct, but upon closer examination of the articles, I think there IS a way that parents can pass aflatoxins to their offspring that perhaps we should be very aware of.

Please check out the first link that Bourbon posted by Dr. Thrasher (the one with the blue background). I did check into his background and he does have legit science degrees. This is the part of the article that concerns me:

"Aflatoxins have been demonstrated in human cord blood and sera of women immediately after birth. These result demonstrated the transplacental transfer and concentration of aflatoxin by the feto-placental unit.6 Moreover, neonates with and without jaundice were investigated for the presence of aflatoxins in the cord blood. Jaundice and decreased birth weight were correlated with a higher concentration of alflatoxin B1. The observations showed that neonates are exposed to aflatoxin prenatally."

This means that even though joeys wouldn't automatically inherit the aflatoxins bound to their DNA, they are VERY LIKELY to receive aflatoxins from an affected mother either through 1) milk while nursing, which the article mentions has tested positive for aflatoxins, or 2) possible through mom's blood. Once the baby is exposed to aflatoxins either through milk or blood, the aflatoxin could then bind to the joey's DNA and cause side effects (those mentioned in the article include jaundice and low birth weight). So there IS a mode of transmission between parents and offspring; but it is "environmental" rather than directly genetic.

The study examined placental mammals, and not suprisingly, did not mention marsupials. Marsupials do not have a true placenta, so it's possible that placental transmission via blood might be LESS likely to occur in marsupials because there is not as much of a connection between mom and baby in marsupials as in placental mammals. The milk is still a very possible scenario though.

Unfortunately the literature posted so far doesn't really discuss if the impacts on the offspring stop at jaundice and low birth weight or if the babies also go on to experience a range of side effects like the parents would (such as liver disease and other problems from aflatoxins). However, this is a possible mode of transmission that I think we truly need to research more. If this could be passed to joeys, could those joeys then pass it to their offspring? I think there is no reason for panic yet, but reason for concern. Is there a possibility that this could explain some of the liver cancers we have been seeing out there in gliders?

Is there a way we can find out more about the ELISA test? Can the ELISA test for aflatoxins be performed with a simple blood sample (when a glider is anesthetized), or can it only be performed on liver tissue after the glider is dead?

Also, I think it is worthwhile for us to search the literature more about how OFFSPRING of those exposed to aflatoxins are impacted, and if they can continue to pass it on to their offspring. There is substantial research on aflatoxins out there because they impact humans and livestock dramatically. The basic cellular mechanism should be fairly similar whether we're talking gliders or other animals.

I am pretty overwhelmed with grad school stuff right now but feel free to PM me if you want to chat about it more or research...just wanted to update what I had said in the past because I'm not sure I had considered every angle before my first post.


Edited by 7glider7 (09/15/09 08:39 PM)

Top
#838788 - 09/15/09 10:10 PM Re: Aflatoxin discussion [Re: ]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
I agree that this is possible, but (in my mind and understanding) this is true for a a mother that has been exposed while the baby is in utero and/or nursing. So, for instance, if mom was exposed 2 years ago, that may not be passed to the child, but if exposure is ongoing while the baby is nursing, then it is certainly likely.

Again (my understanding) is that it can be performed with a blood test, but as Bourbon and I were discussing, I don't think you can get enough blood from a live glider (with a normal blood draw) to do the test.
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

Top
#838802 - 09/15/09 10:40 PM Re: Aflatoxin discussion [Re: sugarlope]
7glider7
Unregistered


I guess one problem about the articles we have so far is they don't explain HOW the aflatoxins got into the milk or placenta. Can they only get there if mom is exposed while baby is nursing or in utero? Or is there high enough aflatoxin levels in the bloodstream that if mom becomes pregnant down the road, the aflatoxins could then be transmitted to the baby?

My understanding also is that it sounds like the aflatoxins go directly to the metabolic areas of the body (liver, kidneys, etc) and don't seem to stick around in the blood, which means what you are saying is correct Gretchen...but then how could a blood test detect the aflatoxins?

Bourbon PMed me a link about aflatoxin testing at Cornell...does anyone have any contacts at Cornell where we could ask how this test is performed? If not, I might try to contact someone there.

Top
#838858 - 09/16/09 05:11 AM Re: Aflatoxin discussion [Re: ]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Jen, you may want to try to get ahold of Crescent - I know that when she was handraising her glider Sky, that she took him to Cornell on a regular basis. I don't know how often she gets on the board these days, but if you'd like her other contact information, send me a PM.
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

Top
#838940 - 09/16/09 10:20 AM Re: Aflatoxin discussion [Re: sugarglidersuz]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
That also is a question I have, it seems it can be transmitted through blood AND milk, if it can be, then why can't we detect it with a blood draw, unless at some point it is metabolizing into something else at some point.

in one of the links it states that the m1 is detected in the urine of the offspring, but that the b1 is passed through the milk and blood, then what mode of metabolizing/ mutating is taking place?.

I wonder if there is yet another metabolism that is taking place. something we are missing which is why I am searching hoping someone could explain the process, much more clearly.

thank you Jen,
_________________________
Baybe,My Roots

SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

321-331-1608

Top
#839001 - 09/16/09 12:16 PM Re: Aflatoxin discussion [Re: Bourbon]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA

Quote:
The Aflatoxin M1 ELISA is an immunoassay for the quantitative and sensitive screening of Aflatoxin M1.
This test is suitable for the quantitative and/or qualitative screening of Aflatoxin M1 in milk and milk
products (please refer to the appropriate technical bulletins for extraction/dilution procedures). If
necessary, samples requiring regulatory action can be confirmed by HPLC, GC/MS, or other
conventional methods.


Quote:
Until recently, the situation in humans has been less clear because of the difficulty in assessing the degree of exposure. This has, to some extent, been overcome by the development of biomarkers of exposure, which detect aflatoxin metabolites and DNA adducts in urine and blood (Ross et al., 1992). However, it is difficult to assess the past intake of aflatoxin in urine and blood, which provides only an indirect measure of intake in the immediate past. The other method of detecting AFB1 intake in the past was immunocytochemical localization of aflatoxin in individual cells.


Jen I sent you some links regarding the biomarkers


Edited by Bourbon (09/16/09 12:16 PM)
_________________________
Baybe,My Roots

SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

321-331-1608

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >




Moderator:  Feather, KarenE, Ladymagyver, Philwojo 
Sugar Glider Help Page



Please click above to see how you can help!!

Moon
CURRENT MOON
Who's Online
2 registered (mechnut450, gr8pots), 22 Guests and 14 Spiders online.
Key: Owner, Admin, Mod
Newest Members
Minxies, Neversaynever, velish, ccjl1665, Kp3690
6299 Registered Users
Forum Stats
17 posts in the last 24hrs
6300 Members
134 Forums
8808 Topics
147007 Posts

Max Online: 478 @ 07/15/07 01:24 AM
Last 10 New Topics
Joey or Full grown
by kinn2388
Yesterday at 09:43 AM
How could I help this glider?
by MomoShiva
08/15/17 05:21 PM
One day too late
by CrypticDelirium
08/15/17 03:06 PM
a strange Diabetic question
by mechnut450
08/15/17 11:37 AM
Glider in distress
by maycstay
08/15/17 12:11 AM
Dear Crabby
by TwoDog
08/14/17 06:10 AM
Let's see your cages!
by Nanina_Bryan
08/13/17 10:11 PM
Black Beauty Male
by Srlb
08/13/17 12:02 PM
End of my rope...
by TwoDog
08/12/17 04:30 AM
Reputable Rescues?
by Zoomom31
08/12/17 04:11 AM
(Views)Popular Topics
I just found a lump on Timmy's chest--HELP! 20200030
Spencer needs your prayers/good thoughts 12460846
TEXAS 625519
Pitbull biter needs advice/help 559386
OHIO 482199
Member Titles 430002
MISSOURI 366821
HOLY CRACKERS AMERICAN HPW's 340735
OKLAHOMA 328114
URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered 320994
Supported Browser
This site was tested and is best viewed in Google Chrome & Mozilla FireFox



Firefox 3

Download your copy today!!!


GliderCENTRAL
©1998-2017