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#835384 - 09/09/09 06:59 AM Too much calcium?
Trigger Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 3970
Loc: Spring, Texas
While at the SGGA listening to guest speaker Dr. Bradley I heard her make comments on the diet, specifically I am asking about the possibility of too much calciium.
Dr. Bradley was informing the group that you can NOT give too much calcium if you are giving the calcium orally. Essentially the gliders will use what is needed and the left over will be expelled.

I have heard & read all along that too much calcium is just as bad as too little.

Would love some input on this.
Don't want to say "oh she's wrong" but I have never heard this before then.
Is this something that has been researched and found to be true in marsupials? I know in other animals, humans etc. there is research stating the negative effects of too much calcium.
I thought not long ago we were looking at calcium(the abundance) being the possible cause of crystals in urine and possible kidney problems.

It would be wonderful if this were the case, we could just heap on the calcium & voila no more worry about Ca:P ratios being upside down.
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#835388 - 09/09/09 07:12 AM Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Trigger]
CharmedSuggies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 4273
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
I was not at the SGGA unfortunately but that is very interesting! All i've heard is the same thing "too much calcium is bad".
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#836517 - 09/11/09 11:53 AM Re: Too much calcium? [Re: CharmedSuggies]
CharmedSuggies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 4273
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
No one with answers for this???
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Crabby Crew
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Akeesha, Orion & Niko :rtmo:

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#836518 - 09/11/09 11:55 AM Re: Too much calcium? [Re: CharmedSuggies]
MizValorie Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2579
Loc: Sherman, Texas
was not at the sgga but this is my take on it...sounds a little to good to be true you know?
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#836535 - 09/11/09 12:40 PM Re: Too much calcium? [Re: MizValorie]
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered


Bourbon and I were just talking about this... and I dont think we really KNOW.. ya know..

My personal take.. too much of anything is bad!

Here's a good quick read..
http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/id/QAA293439

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#836570 - 09/11/09 02:20 PM Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ]
Trigger Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 3970
Loc: Spring, Texas
I took the question to my glider vet and she beleives that while it would probably be difficult for us to manage od gliders on JUST naturally occurring calcium in fruits, vegis & such we COULD easily do it with supplements & then yes it will cause problems in gliders just like any other animal.
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kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
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#836589 - 09/11/09 02:51 PM Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Trigger]
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
I just spoke with Dr. Bradley on the phone and she repeated to me what she said at the SGGA about calcium not being able to be "overdosed" if given orally. However, she said that if you're adding calcium to an existing diet it should be Calcium Carbonate and NOT the calcium w/ Vit. D, just plain calcium carbonate because too much Vit. D can be harmful.
_________________________
~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin

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#836623 - 09/11/09 03:41 PM Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Guerita135]
Janie Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 03/03/08
Posts: 605
Loc: MS
I asked my vet and he said the same thing Dr Bradley did. You cant OD them on Calcium given orally( he stressed the orally part). He did say that was not true for all vitamins and supplements thou.
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#836624 - 09/11/09 03:41 PM Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Guerita135]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16745
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Hmm...Even Tristan said that it IS possible to overdose calcium. When I go in I will ask him to be more specific on it.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#836654 - 09/11/09 05:09 PM Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Srlb]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Sorry but I tend to believe Dr. Bradley (and her experience) over Dr. Tristan. While I think it is great that Dr. Tristan is learning and doing all the research he is, he just doesn't have the same level of experience that Dr. Bradley does.
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#836656 - 09/11/09 05:16 PM Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Dancing]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
I remember reading a long time ago that it depends on the TYPE/KIND of calcium. Anyone?
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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#836667 - 09/11/09 05:45 PM Re: Too much calcium? [Re: SugarBlossoms]
SugareeErin Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 3843
Loc: Lisle, Illinois
I also thought that was really interesting and discussed it with Bourbon at the SGGA. She said she did not think that was true, so when I got back I did ask my vet about it. Dr. Ness agreed that is not true and said you can have too much calcium in a diet which will cause crystals in the urine/kidney problems.

As always, maintaining the proper ratios in the diet is important. Giving too much CAN be just as bad as giving too little.

Dr. Ness used to breed gliders himself and has researched them in depth for many many years. There has yet to be research I bring/refer to that he is not familiar with.
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#836668 - 09/11/09 05:45 PM Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Dancing]
Trigger Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 3970
Loc: Spring, Texas
Originally Posted By: Dancing
Sorry but I tend to believe Dr. Bradley (and her experience) over Dr. Tristan. While I think it is great that Dr. Tristan is learning and doing all the research he is, he just doesn't have the same level of experience that Dr. Bradley does.


She kinda lost my confidence with the " there is no way to keep an e-collar on a glider" part of her presentation, sorry. This I know myself to be absolutely WRONG. I know because I have managed to do so twice myself & know for a fact Cora is pretty good with one too. So I don't think she knows absolutely everything there is to know about gliders.
If you remember T I beleive you or maybe B had to let her know that we(glider community) had figured out how and it was a very common practice when need be.
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#836699 - 09/11/09 06:52 PM Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Trigger]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16745
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
While I think it is great that Dr. Tristan is learning and doing all the research he is, he just doesn't have the same level of experience that Dr. Bradley does.


Teresa, I think you are WAY mistaken here...I really dont think you have ANY idea HOW much experience Tristan has in the SUGAR GLIDER, SQUIRREL GLIDER, FEATHER TAIL, AND BRUSHTAIL Possum experience he HAS...So ah. Your wrong, he has TONS of experience AND he DOES realize that you CAN overdose a glider on Calcium and he also knows not only CAN a glider wear a ecollar and KEEP IT ON, he also knows HOW to put on one to make it STAY ON, AND he also knows the PROPER NUMBERS to go by to know when a gliders levels are off and not say, oh yea, that is normal. As soon as he seen the email I sent him he called me and told me to have Nicole have that gliders kidneys checked...he said that would be his FIRST step, whereas Bradleys first step was to look the numbers up.

So although she may be a WONDERFUL vet and she may do wonderful things, to say she is more experienced when you dont know for a FACT but it is just YOUR opinion....that one I would have to say your wrong.

But I would expect you to trust her more than Tristan. Afterall, she IS your vet.


Edited by Srlb (09/11/09 07:09 PM)
Edit Reason: Wrote glider meant possum
_________________________
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Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#836701 - 09/11/09 06:54 PM Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Guerita135]
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Guerita135
I just spoke with Dr. Bradley on the phone and she repeated to me what she said at the SGGA about calcium not being able to be "overdosed" if given orally. However, she said that if you're adding calcium to an existing diet it should be Calcium Carbonate and NOT the calcium w/ Vit. D, just plain calcium carbonate because too much Vit. D can be harmful.


Nicole,
Unless gliders are outside in the sun for a min of 1 hour everyday.. they are not getting any from foods UNLESS fed seafood. There is very little to none in anything else.. I use Kirkman
because it is very low in D3 but we need to provide them something to help absorption. So I wonder what she recommends if not thru supplements?

My vet was on the fence about this and the way I understand it from him.. it's a controversial subject.


Edited to add
Quote:
Vitamin D toxicity usually results from taking an excessive amount of vitamin D supplements — not from your diet or too much sun exposure. That's because your body produces only a limited amount of vitamin D from sun exposure, and even fortified foods don't contain large amounts of vitamin D. Although vitamin D toxicity is rare even among people who take supplements, you may be at greater risk if you have health problems, such as liver or kidney conditions, or if you take thiazide-type diuretics.


Edited by BabyLoveGliders (09/11/09 07:02 PM)

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#836703 - 09/11/09 06:58 PM Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Srlb]
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Srlb
Quote:
While I think it is great that Dr. Tristan is learning and doing all the research he is, he just doesn't have the same level of experience that Dr. Bradley does.


Teresa, I think you are WAY mistaken here...I really dont think you have ANY idea HOW much experience Tristan has in the SUGAR GLIDER, SQUIRREL GLIDER, FEATHER TAIL, AND BRUSHTAIL GLIDER experience he HAS...So ah. Your wrong, he has TONS of experience AND he DOES realize that you CAN overdose a glider on Calcium and he also knows not only CAN a glider wear a ecollar and KEEP IT ON, he also knows HOW to put on one to make it STAY ON, AND he also knows the PROPER NUMBERS to go by to know when a gliders levels are off and not say, oh yea, that is normal. As soon as he seen the email I sent him he called me and told me to have Nicole have that gliders kidneys checked...he said that would be his FIRST step, whereas Bradleys first step was to look the numbers up.

So although she may be a WONDERFUL vet and she may do wonderful things, to say she is more experienced when you dont know for a FACT but it is just YOUR opinion....that one I would have to say your wrong.

But I would expect you to trust her more than Tristan. Afterall, she IS your vet.


LOL What was it you said yesterday?? For the first time in a long time, I agree with you?? LOL

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#836713 - 09/11/09 07:11 PM Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16745
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
LOL What was it you said yesterday?? For the first time in a long time, I agree with you?? LOL



agree roflmao
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#836727 - 09/11/09 07:32 PM Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Srlb]
khyricat
Unregistered


honestly- I will step in here too.. Too much of anything even taken orally still needs to be processed in some form by the body. Dr Bradley bothered me a lot in some of what she said to be honest because it wasn't based on accepted research in the animal OR HUMAN worlds (I have been talking to Dr Dierenfeld about possibly doing research with her in the future and mentioned this statement ot her...)

Also- from what we know- its possible gliders don't need ANY vit D in their bodies other than the small amounts they get via various dietary sources in the wild. as today's news proved- not all creatures process bodily functions the same way- that was related to a new study on nerve responses that they had been basing prior supposition on a detailed study of squid and recently discovered that in mammals the process and energy needed is totally different. Assuming a glider processes foods the same as a human is just that ASSUMING and as I firmly believe: assume is [censored] of u and me

Amie

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#836738 - 09/11/09 08:00 PM Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ]
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered


Quote:
Also- from what we know- its possible gliders don't need ANY vit D in their bodies other than the small amounts they get via various dietary sources in the wild


Yes! When my vet and I were working on my diet... at first we didnt add any D3... then thru more research decided it would be best to add some in very small amounts.

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#836754 - 09/11/09 08:21 PM Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ]
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
When I was speaking to Dr. Tristan about adding calcium to the HPW diet she told me to add the calcium carbonate, rather then the reptile calcium I'd been using. She was already familiar with the HPW diet, so I assume she told me that because HPW already has Vit. D. So, if I were to add more, it could be harmful. That's why I said "if you're adding calcium to an existing diet" cause I didn't want to confuse it with just adding calcium to a diet that you've created yourself or a diet that CALLS for adding the calcium w/ Vit. D. wink
_________________________
~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin

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#836770 - 09/11/09 08:53 PM Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Guerita135]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16745
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
When I was speaking to Dr. Tristan about adding calcium to the HPW diet she told me to add the calcium carbonate, rather then the reptile calcium I'd been using.


I think you meant to say Dr.Bradley because Tristan is a him and he has always told me no additional calcium was required.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#836846 - 09/11/09 11:14 PM Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Srlb]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Dr Bradley is ONE of my vets, not my only vet. I actually have three different vets that I take my gliders to. (and two different vets for my dogs and yet another one for my horses)

But when comparing vets, look at how long they have been vets. There is quite a great deal to be said for vets that graduated vet school in 1990 compared to 2003? One of my vets graduated in 1971 I believe.

But we've been down this road before.

As I've said, I think it is great when any vet wants to learn and especially those that are willing to do so much in the way of research. We do need more like that.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#836849 - 09/11/09 11:20 PM Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Srlb]
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: Srlb
Quote:
When I was speaking to Dr. Tristan about adding calcium to the HPW diet she told me to add the calcium carbonate, rather then the reptile calcium I'd been using.


I think you meant to say Dr.Bradley because Tristan is a him and he has always told me no additional calcium was required.


Yep, sorry, my brain is fried, lol.
_________________________
~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin

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#836852 - 09/11/09 11:23 PM Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Dancing]
Rita
Unregistered


Why does everyone suggest using calcium carbonate over calcium citrate? Ive read that calcium citrate is easier to absorb...?

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#836860 - 09/11/09 11:43 PM Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ]
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
I have no idea, I'm just saying what Dr. Bradley said. tounge

Now you've got me curious...* off to google it!* roflmao
_________________________
~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin

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#836865 - 09/11/09 11:57 PM Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Guerita135]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
Teresa, how long a vet has been a vet has nothing to do with anything. They are no different than anyone in any other field. They are human. Some absorb knowledge faster than others and then we have some vets that simply (like many fields) are only in it for the money and don't care how much they learn, only how much they EARN. NOT saying this about your vet, just an example.

People will learn much more when they are willing and WANT to learn.

I would rather have my vet tell me she doesn't know something than to have her pull up numbers out of a book that gives examples of dogs and cats.
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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#836877 - 09/12/09 12:08 AM Re: Too much calcium? [Re: SugarBlossoms]
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: SugarBlossoms
I would rather have my vet tell me she doesn't know something than to have her pull up numbers out of a book that gives examples of dogs and cats.


In Dr. Bradley's defense, that's not what she did... She said she didn't know and that for a dog/cat that level was normal and that's why she thinks my vet may not have said anything about it being high. She told me that she'd look it up to make sure and would get back to me with the correct information.

Personally I wouldn't want a vet to tell me wrong info OR to just tell me "I don't know". I want a vet that, if they don't know something, then they'll say, "I don't know, but I'll find out for you."

That's how MY vet is and it's one of the reasons I like her so much. I've got to 2 other vets nearby and the first one pretty much said, "I don't know what's wrong and I don't care enough to find out" and the other didn't even talk to me in person and ended up mis-diagnosing and mis-treating my gliders because he THOUGHT he was all-that and didn't even take a second glance to re-check everything.

Just my $0.2. lol
_________________________
~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin

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#836957 - 09/12/09 09:18 AM Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Guerita135]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16745
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
She said she didn't know and that for a dog/cat that level was normal


One of my points exactly, when I sent over your paper Nicole, Tim said those numbers ARE way too high, have her check the kidneys as that is the first thing he would do. He knew right then and there, he wasnt uncertain, nor did he need to look it up.

Not in any way saying he is perfect, but to say one vet has more experience then another because of the year they graduated, well, that is not a way to determine things.

Hands on experience with things is MUCH better than book knowledge if you ask me anyway. But that is just my opinion...

Sorry Trigger, lets get this back on topic!! blush
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#836967 - 09/12/09 09:51 AM Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Guerita135]
suggiemom1980 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 13746
Loc: Vincennes, IN, USA
Originally Posted By: Guerita135


Personally I wouldn't want a vet to tell me wrong info OR to just tell me "I don't know". I want a vet that, if they don't know something, then they'll say, "I don't know, but I'll find out for you."

That's how MY vet is and it's one of the reasons I like her so much.


That's how my main vet is too! And while she's not an exotic vet, I prefer her to my two exotic vets. She's willing to do phone consults with glider experienced vets, researches constantly, wants to learn more about gliders, listens to my advice/experiences/wishes and isn't "too full of herself" to let me know if/when I need to go to one of my exotic vets because the circumstances are over her head. All this and she's much less expensive than my exotic vets. Plus, she has a wonderful bedside manner, both with my babies and with me!
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SmallWorldSuggies

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#836972 - 09/12/09 09:56 AM Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Srlb]
mommawannabe Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 2443
Loc: Roanoke, Virginia
calcium citrate is easier to absorb. Just going by myself and my experiences with my gastric bypass. I have been told by my doctor and a pharmicist that it needs to be citrate because due to the surgery and what was taken out my body cannot absorb the other fast enough before it passes out of the body. But I have also been told to take vitD to help with the absorption. Not sure if this has anything to do with gliders. Just saying that is what I have been told since 07 when I had my surgery.

Hope this helps.

Anna
_________________________
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son Logan - 11
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Turtles - Shelly~Petunia

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