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#841739 - 09/21/09 01:29 AM Part 2: Too Much Calcium
LSardou Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 21060
Loc: Kansas
See Part One here

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#841763 - 09/21/09 03:33 AM Re: Part 2: Too Much Calcium [Re: LSardou]
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey
I couldnt read every response in the thread so if someone already touched on this...sorry!

I wanted to comment on Marz and Ottemon

loved your comments!
Marz, It is true that the mineral content of a food can change according to season, locality, soil conditions. The nutritional values we use are all averages for a certain food. since our gliders eat such a small amount you can see where the ratios could be way off from what we THINK they are.
I also agree with you that if we fed a diet that more closely resembled a natural diet we wouldnt need to worry about this so much.

Ottemon, I have also asked the same question on here at least a dozen times (ok maybe less) about the AMOUNT of calcium in a diet and it the question doesnt seem to be understood. eveyone here focuses on RATIO. for example: the papaya has a great ratio, but overall very little calcium. so someone feeds it thinking they are doing a good thing because it has a good ratio but in reality the diet is still dificient in calcium.

I still think we need to copy a wild diet better and that would include tree saps and insects and natural nectars (in the wild form, not as honey which is highly concentrated nectar)and bee pollen. so lets have someone do a CHEMICAL ANALYSIS OF EUC SAP AND ACACIA SAP as well as insects and such and use that info to figure out what to feed them. From the VERY LITTLE research I have seen on the internet tree saps are generally carbs and simple sugars (sucrose not fructose) and various minerals which seem to vary by the tree (not species of tree, individual trees) so lets study THAT. do a nutritional breakdown of a wild diet so we know what they are SUPPOSED to have and go from there.


Edited by JillMarie (09/21/09 03:36 AM)
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#841772 - 09/21/09 05:19 AM Re: Part 2: Too Much Calcium [Re: JillMarie]
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey
oh yeah....

I would also like to question (again) the affects of exercise on calcium absorbtion.

we know that exercise, including exercise that includes impact is essential to healthy bone formation. How are captive gliders affected by this? wheels are great exercise but dont supply any impact. neither does jumping in a cage. Do gliders that get out of the cage more and smack into things while gliding do better than those that dont???
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#841792 - 09/21/09 07:59 AM Re: Part 2: Too Much Calcium [Re: JillMarie]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16744
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
Following this thread I haven't been able to ascertain what are the goals expected through glider blood drawing.


That makes two of us Schlep.

BTW, Thank you, I LOVE when you get involved in threads. Your experience and knowledge in the medical field really helps bring to light many things, whether you are aware of that or not. Gives some of us some extra food for though. So once again, Thank you.

I can tell you Schlep, it is because of the blood work done on my glider Dasher and my other gliders that has raised so many questions. And that of Nicoles gliders who had an array of different issues going on at her house.

Instead of asking why my blood work came back good and try to focus on how that could be, maybe the *team* of researchers should be asking why Nicoles numbers were so off. The answers may be easier to understand.

I have seen over and over how folks have decided that I ONLY feed a .8;1 ratio, yet they are going by what foods I have listed that I feed my gliders. They are not here to add in or take out any and all others items such as treats, or how many mealies do I feed versus what Nicole feeds. How many kernels of corn do I feed versus what Nicole feeds, what kind of honey does Nicole use, what kind do I use, etc...

It is just a mission to try and figure out how a glider body works, but it will never come to pass as each glider is different.

I can just about guarantee that if I took every single one of my gliders in for a blood work up today there would not be two that were identical. If that were to happen what do we do, do we tear things apart to find out why??

Quote:
I'm still looking for a good reason to do this bloodwork study. Even one. Then there is the issue that will arise as to what one hopes to do with this "information" to change anything and know that you are making the situation better.


I can not wait for this answer neither. I have stated so many times before, there will never be a *perfect* diet. If that is what the search is, everyone will be different. If folks dont like HPW, BML, Suncoast, PP's diet, you know what...DONT USE THEM. Find what works for YOU and YOUR gliders and go from there. There is no need to sit and worry about how other peoples gliders are doing on something. It is up to EACH of us to be sure to have the PROPER vet care done on each of our animals.

As I have stated before, IF you have that first blood work done up, you now have a baseline to go off of. That way if something goes wrong and your glider gets ill, you can do another blood workup and hopefully it will show in the numbers on what is different and where it is different. At that point your experienced vet should be able to figure it out. If you wind up having several people with the same issues going on and they are all doing the same or very similar things with their gliders, you can then gather all the blood panels up in one location and then try to determine if there is a common denominator and look for answers that way. But to try and do things the way they are talking, this Non-Controlled Study, I just dont see what would come out of it.

Trigger, I have told you before and I will tell you again, when you came across that info on the foods, I found it to be VERY INTERESTING. It does change many things, not only in our gliders, but also in us. Thank you for being a number guru nerd! tounge
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#841818 - 09/21/09 09:01 AM Re: Part 2: Too Much Calcium [Re: Srlb]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
"without knowing what they REALLY need in the first place" Isn't this what we should be trying to find out??

I kind of sit back a chuckle at this a bit. We all want to know what our gliders need, but we just debate back and forth over the fact that even doctors can't get it right for humans.

Humans do have recommended daily amounts of fruits, veggies, protein, calories, etc. Does this work for everyone? Of course not. But it give us a baseline for what is or should be, normal. Each person needs determine what works best for them, hopefully with the advice of their doctor. I think this is what we need for gliders too. It seems to me that all results, regardless of the research being conducted, will give us results in ranges. We can hopefully take these ranges and compare them to the diets we feed. Then we can determine if what we are doing is what is best for our gliders. Let's face it, we all want what is best for them.

Also, I do not think that duplicating a diet in the wild exactly will work for captive gliders. Wouldn't they become overweight? Our gliders just do not get the type of exercise they get in the wild. That would be like feeding a couch potato the same diet as an athlete. Not gonna work out so well.

I do not have a medical background, I would love to throw statistics out there to compare to, but I can't. I do, however, realize that there isn't very much vet verified information out there for our gliders. We really need a starting point, and I think a great place to start is trying to determine the basic needs of a glider. Then go from there.
JMO
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#841821 - 09/21/09 09:13 AM Re: Part 2: Too Much Calcium [Re: Srlb]
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered


I'm going try my best here..LOL



Quote:
Following this thread I haven't been able to ascertain what are the goals expected through glider blood drawing.


I've seen comments about comparing diets, but others wrote that it is not a diet study. Some indicated normal values are being sought, although others noted they exist in literature. The link to the article Kris posted titled "GliderPaper" was interesting, but the ranges listed were very wide for many metabolites. This thread seemed to begin with interest in calcium levels.

The question was asked "why the resistance?" IMHO twofold. 1) Glider risk and stress from invasive sticking with or without anasthesia, and
2) No hope of finding anything useful
(Not to mention expense)

Calcium metabolism is very complicated. A good mental model is the house thermastat. If you set the dial on 73 degrees and the house cools to 72, the furnace comes on. At 74 it goes off. You might like 73, and your neighbor 76. Open a window or build a fire and the system will stop heating or work overtime to keep at 73. Calcium levels are that way regardless of day-to-day diet.

Someone above asked an interesting question. The general idea was: "What would happen if you feed a diet one day with no calcium, and another day a diet with 10 times the calcium?" Absolutely nothing. The body will maintain calcium levels at its set point. On a diet-deficient day, the bone stores will be used to keep blood levels up. On a diet high in calcium, less will be absorbed and more excreted to maintain levels. Much like your house thermostat. A horrible diet over a long time will eventually show symptoms. My best guess is that most of the diets being used are not truely that rotten. Most likey many of them provide enough of what is needed to stay out of trouble. In relative terms, our pizza-eating and McDonald's gobbling society is far worse off.

Really? Tell me how you know this? I for one would like to know what is truly best.. I am tired of guessing. We have an opportunity to find out.. lets find out.


Also interesting that the Sugar Glider normals listed in Merck were remarkable similar to human levels. Also of note, the local veterinarians bring their blood samples to our Hospital and run them on the same analyzers we use for humans.

Although blood sugar can zoom up and down with diet changes, that doesn't happen with very many other metabolites. Certainly not calcium. The PTH and Calcitonin won't let it vary that much.

I'm still looking for a good reason to do this bloodwork study. Even one. Then there is the issue that will arise as to what one hopes to do with this "information" to change anything and know that you are making the situation better.

Somebody earlier noted that the first glider to wake got the corn, and the last got the carrots. That was our experience. It is a pointless game for me to count out ratios and have the furbutts do that. I quit worrying long ago and trust mother nature.



We are trying to lay the ground work for a full study on how gliders process, absorbs calcium, how much is exactly needed.. not in ratios but in mg. Can you feed too much calcium? Where does it go.. we already have 3 vets that say yes its possible to feed to much and 3 vets that say no they will excrete what they do not need. We know women of approx 50 needs 1000+ mg per day.. How much does a glider need? We want to know even though told by health care professionals that an optimal diet is approx 2:1 ratio.. do gliders need that? If a glider is feed a diet of approx 1:1 ratio we know the blood will come back within range because the body is pulling it from somewhere (bones). How long can a glider live on a poor diet before we start seeing bone loss? How long will it be happening before it is caught during a reg checkup? Then their is the whole diet thing...We have no flippin idea. We do the best we can, but really we have no idea what a gliders needs.. We want to find out.. how much protein a glider really needs, selenium, iron, ... people have been talking about the BML diet having too much iron for years now.. OK.. why do you say that? Some say they feed 50% protein, 25% fruits and 25% veggies. Some dont think you need to feed any f & V... but yet no one can prove anyone else wrong.. why.. because our blood work is coming back fine... well we know feeding a diet of 500mg calcium compared to 3000mg there are difference going on right? We need to have a group of people feeding a full spectrum of ratios, protein, etc have their blood drawn to show this. This is only the ground work to get further studies going. My ultimate goal is to have guidelines much like our "based on a 2000 calorie a day".. specific amounts of what a sugar gliders bodies really need... Does their muscles function and build the same on plant protein compared to animal protein.. sorry I could go on and on.

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#841824 - 09/21/09 09:20 AM Re: Part 2: Too Much Calcium [Re: JillMarie]
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: JillMarie
oh yeah....

I would also like to question (again) the affects of exercise on calcium absorbtion.

we know that exercise, including exercise that includes impact is essential to healthy bone formation. How are captive gliders affected by this? wheels are great exercise but dont supply any impact. neither does jumping in a cage. Do gliders that get out of the cage more and smack into things while gliding do better than those that dont???


I LOVE that you said this... and as does ambient temperatures.. One vet recommends we keep our gliders at around 90 degrees.. others say 70-75 is fine.. that too me is a HUGE difference.

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#841826 - 09/21/09 09:26 AM Re: Part 2: Too Much Calcium [Re: ]
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered


Marz... I so wished we lived in that perfect world.. but we dont. While doing my diet.. as you know LOL I tried very very hard to get it close, close as I feel that I could but yet still feasible for people here in the states.. So thank you again for all your help there.

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#841836 - 09/21/09 10:19 AM Re: Part 2: Too Much Calcium [Re: ]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16744
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Kris, did you find out about having your blood work faxed over? I have already went and dropped the kiddos off but I dont have to go pick them up until later this afternoon so we still have time. Would you please have them fax the blood work over if you dont mind.
361-643-6495
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Critter Love
Critter Love« Diet Center

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#841838 - 09/21/09 10:25 AM Re: Part 2: Too Much Calcium [Re: Srlb]
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered


Please do not take this the wrong way OK.
Peggy, I am sorry, I just dont see the reason to fax my gliders blood work to you? If there is one please let me know.

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#841844 - 09/21/09 10:32 AM Re: Part 2: Too Much Calcium [Re: ]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16744
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Kris, dont worry Im not taking it wrong at all.

The only reason I was asking for it was to add it with Tims collection that he has been gathering over the past few years for the research that HE has been working on. Figured since you were on a different diet it would be one more he could add to the list. dunno

No biggie.
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Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love« Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

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#841847 - 09/21/09 10:39 AM Re: Part 2: Too Much Calcium [Re: Srlb]
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered


See.. I have no clue what Dr T is working on. Last I knew it was necropsy's and livers right? But I have never heard any of those findings or results. I assumed he was really concentrating on his dolphin/whale project.

i know you have asked many times for people to fax info over to you..but I just have never seen what comes of them. smile

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#841923 - 09/21/09 12:44 PM Re: Part 2: Too Much Calcium [Re: ]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16744
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Sorry I had to run some errands...

Quote:
I have no clue what Dr T is working on. Last I knew it was necropsy's and livers right?


You just stated what Tim is working on right there, so yea, you do know. grin

The reason for the blood work he collects is to keep check on the liver results that are IN the blood panel that is drawn. This is one of the reasons why he does not believe that most (if any) are diet related in any way. With what he has now and the very FEW (three to be exact) livers that he has gotten and the lab in California that is currently TRYING to work with him on this it does not show it would be from diet problems but more along the lines that the liver issues are secondary issues.

Quote:
But I have never heard any of those findings or results.


Hard to give results when the people who asked for this kind of work to be done wont jump on board to help out...much like the same resistance you are running into right now.

Quote:
I assumed he was really concentrating on his dolphin/whale project.


Because he is also doing this project, does it mean one is not qualified to have more than just one going?
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Critter Love
Critter Love« Diet Center

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You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#841948 - 09/21/09 01:08 PM Re: Part 2: Too Much Calcium [Re: Srlb]
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered


Peggy.. I wasnt being [censored] grin .. I am sure as many, Dr T can and does juggle several things..

We have actually had a FABULOUS turn out.. I guess I should have posted yesterday but we have 12 people.. I added 2 more for the "just in cases"..LOL and the add'l people that want to help have been added to our list for the next "step". We are sure that there will be several so dont worry if you could not get on this one.. there is PLENTY to join in on!!

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#841987 - 09/21/09 02:14 PM Re: Part 2: Too Much Calcium [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Just a small guess here but...I'm betting Dr. T would get more input and assistance if HE were the one on the boards asking. The Australia research group did just that and got a great deal of "participants" respond to them.

The Death Database is a really good example of the situations. For a very long time, people were asked to fill out a questionaire about their gliders for the database. Sadly, there wasn't the volumn of response that Lucy had hoped for. But Lucy corrilated the ones she did get and gave us a presentation of what she had found. Were these conclusive? No, not really. Mainly we learned that the majority of glider household deaths (that were reported to the database) were caused by drowning in toilets. People took steps to try to avoid this happening to their gliders by keeping toilet lids down and/or ladders in their toilets (and boy do those raise eyebrows from visitors). The database had NO scientific value but because of the outcome, how many gliders are still alive? I'm betting more than a few.

What Kris is working on isn't going to pull in any "scientific" knowledge but provide the footing for further scientific research to try to find the answers everyone is always asking.

Again I ask, if not start here, then WHERE? And Peggy, you are always on people about having blood panels done and to provide you/Tristan with the results. How is this different? How is this harmful to the gliders?
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#841998 - 09/21/09 02:48 PM Re: Part 2: Too Much Calcium [Re: Srlb]
desertmommy Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 08/15/05
Posts: 184
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Originally Posted By: Srlb
Hard to give results when the people who asked for this kind of work to be done wont jump on board to help out...much like the same resistance you are running into right now.


Peggy, after talking to you the other night, and you explaining that Tim is willing to pay for everything (packing, shipping, etc.), for the livers (or bodies), and take the time to explain to other vets exactly what he needs, it still blows my mind that you are receiving any resistance at all! Especially considering just how much we hear about liver problems lately.


That said, and you know I love ya girl, but I have to add this:

Reading this whole thread, it seems like you are one of (I am NOT saying only) the main ones giving resistance to this new study/work/whatever we want to call it.

Knowing first hand the frustration from resistance when all you want to do is help, which you've expressed in this thread, I just don't understand your responses.

I don't understand why everyone can't get on board when anyone (personal feelings aside) attempts to do something that just might help everyone's gliders.

I'd send Tim livers; I'd do blood work for Kris; I'd also be happy to test ANY new toys ANYONE has! wink

Science isn't always perfect, and whether the exact results hoped for are accomplished, or not, quite often we can learn something we didn't even set out to discover.
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#842018 - 09/21/09 03:17 PM Re: Part 2: Too Much Calcium [Re: desertmommy]
Marz Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 708
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Originally Posted By: desertmommy


Reading this whole thread, it seems like you are one of (I am NOT saying only) the main ones giving resistance to this new study/work/whatever we want to call it.

Knowing first hand the frustration from resistance when all you want to do is help, which you've expressed in this thread, I just don't understand your responses.

I don't understand why everyone can't get on board when anyone (personal feelings aside) attempts to do something that just might help everyone's gliders.

Science isn't always perfect, and whether the exact results hoped for are accomplished, or not, quite often we can learn something we didn't even set out to discover.



Originally Posted By: Dancing

I guess I don't understand the resistance to this "informal" study to get the ball rolling.


I actually see where Peggy and others are coming from.


The whole concept of the study is excellent but there is a big BUT! I can see this study ending up being a waste of time and a whole lot of money.

Why?

Not enough groundwork has been established with proper goals and aims for such a study. I'm confused about what the study is actually going to concentrate on though it's into it's second thread already.

Too many variables and randoms to make this study of any value. ..What is needed is a central vet and/or at least central lab to do the testing (diff vets/labs and testing conditions can bring up different results), gliders of similar type/sex/age on exact diets and that means right down to the same brands of items used. XXX honey XXX eggs etc. Different diets can be tested but again each test animal must have the same variables as other gliders on that same diet.

Ideally what that needs to come out of this study, is a paper that will be recognised under the guidelines of this sort of research.Whilst glider owners can participate with most of the study, you need someone with actual accreditation to head it up to give credence, transparancy and independence from the personal conflicts that are obvious from within the sugar glider community.

This is what the aim should be, credibility and scientific acknowledgment. Fine to do a small "survey" but when you are asking people to participate in something that can end up being quite costly, why not do it right the first time round.










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#842019 - 09/21/09 03:19 PM Re: Part 2: Too Much Calcium [Re: desertmommy]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16744
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
First of all, I am NOT resisting anything, just trying to figure out WHAT is trying to be done here.... One minute it is a study that has two vets, two labs and a team of 10 folks and then it goes to an uncontrolled study, next it wasnt about diets and then it was about diets from someone else on the same team...I am just trying to figure out WHAT they are needing, WHY they are needing it and WHO is going to be the one reading the bloodwork. Yet when questions are asked I am the one being told everyones names have to be kept silent. If it is wrong for me to not want to just turn over stuff to someone I dont know will be reading it, then I apologize.

I am NOT against research, but I DO want to know what A, B, and C is ACTUALLY going to be.

When the PROPER folks are mentioned and can be contacted by anyones vets for further questioning I will be one of the first ones on board. I have freely posted my bloodwork and since I did so, that is allowing anyone to use it if they need to.

I have even wished Kris well with this. So HOW am I resisting? I dont get it. Anytime someone has more questions it is resisting or slamming or bashing...I am JUST Trying to figure out along with others in this thread (Schlep being one) WHAT exactly is needed and WHY...

As for you Teresa, please show me where I have EVER said this is bad for the gliders? Going forward with learning is NEVER bad, no matter WHAT kind of tests are done...we always learn from ALL of them be it blood test, ua's, fecals or necropsies. They ALL are beneficial to learning more.

As to why Tim himself is not on the boards, well we as a community went to him. In the beginning he WAS taking all the calls himself until he could not get any work done at his office and asked me to be middle man. So if that is a problem, we can fix that as well Im sure.

Now, if you all dont mind, this is about Calcium and if a glider can get too much and be overdosed with it.

I really do wish you all the best in your ventures and I look forward to hearing and seeing the official results of your study written up by your team of vets and other professionals that will be working along with you all.
_________________________
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Critter Love
Critter Love« Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#842039 - 09/21/09 03:27 PM Re: Part 2: Too Much Calcium [Re: Srlb]
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered


Quote:
Peggy, after talking to you the other night, and you explaining that Tim is willing to pay for everything (packing, shipping, etc.), for the livers (or bodies), and take the time to explain to other vets exactly what he needs, it still blows my mind that you are receiving any resistance at all! Especially considering just how much we hear about liver problems lately.


Really? Because I just spoke with someone yesterday that said her vet spoke with Tim and Tim said he was NOT paying for anything!! He said he was ONLY helping by telling other vets how to prepare the body for shipment!

Peggy is Dr T paying for this or not?

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#842042 - 09/21/09 03:31 PM Re: Part 2: Too Much Calcium [Re: Marz]
TWilson
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Marz
[quote=desertmommy]I actually see where Peggy and others are coming from.


The whole concept of the study is excellent but there is a big BUT! I can see this study ending up being a waste of time and a whole lot of money.

Why?

Not enough groundwork has been established with proper goals and aims for such a study. I'm confused about what the study is actually going to concentrate on though it's into it's second thread already.

Too many variables and randoms to make this study of any value. ..What is needed is a central vet and/or at least central lab to do the testing (diff vets/labs and testing conditions can bring up different results), gliders of similar type/sex/age on exact diets and that means right down to the same brands of items used. XXX honey XXX eggs etc. Different diets can be tested but again each test animal must have the same variables as other gliders on that same diet.

Ideally what that needs to come out of this study, is a paper that will be recognised under the guidelines of this sort of research.Whilst glider owners can participate with most of the study, you need someone with actual accreditation to head it up to give credence, transparancy and independence from the personal conflicts that are obvious from within the sugar glider community.

This is what the aim should be, credibility and scientific acknowledgment. Fine to do a small "survey" but when you are asking people to participate in something that can end up being quite costly, why not do it right the first time round.


I agree!!!


Edited by TWilson (09/21/09 03:32 PM)

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#842043 - 09/21/09 03:31 PM Re: Part 2: Too Much Calcium [Re: Marz]
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Marz
Originally Posted By: desertmommy


Reading this whole thread, it seems like you are one of (I am NOT saying only) the main ones giving resistance to this new study/work/whatever we want to call it.

Knowing first hand the frustration from resistance when all you want to do is help, which you've expressed in this thread, I just don't understand your responses.

I don't understand why everyone can't get on board when anyone (personal feelings aside) attempts to do something that just might help everyone's gliders.

Science isn't always perfect, and whether the exact results hoped for are accomplished, or not, quite often we can learn something we didn't even set out to discover.



Originally Posted By: Dancing

I guess I don't understand the resistance to this "informal" study to get the ball rolling.


I actually see where Peggy and others are coming from.


The whole concept of the study is excellent but there is a big BUT! I can see this study ending up being a waste of time and a whole lot of money.

Why?

Not enough groundwork has been established with proper goals and aims for such a study. I'm confused about what the study is actually going to concentrate on though it's into it's second thread already.

Too many variables and randoms to make this study of any value. ..What is needed is a central vet and/or at least central lab to do the testing (diff vets/labs and testing conditions can bring up different results), gliders of similar type/sex/age on exact diets and that means right down to the same brands of items used. XXX honey XXX eggs etc. Different diets can be tested but again each test animal must have the same variables as other gliders on that same diet.

Ideally what that needs to come out of this study, is a paper that will be recognised under the guidelines of this sort of research.Whilst glider owners can participate with most of the study, you need someone with actual accreditation to head it up to give credence, transparancy and independence from the personal conflicts that are obvious from within the sugar glider community.

This is what the aim should be, credibility and scientific acknowledgment. Fine to do a small "survey" but when you are asking people to participate in something that can end up being quite costly, why not do it right the first time round.











100% agree with you and this is EXACTLY what we are working toward. The grant for all of what you just mentioned needs preliminary paperwork filed with it... I am simply asking people to have blood draws doen on their gliders, keep a tight journal for 30 on what you are feeding and at the end of the 30 days retest.. THAT IS IT!! That is all I'm asking for nothing more nothing less...

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#842051 - 09/21/09 03:37 PM Re: Part 2: Too Much Calcium [Re: ]
TWilson
Unregistered


A grant application has been aquired and it specifically states that before any funds will be awarded, this bloodwork has to be done and sent in with the app?

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#842052 - 09/21/09 03:37 PM Re: Part 2: Too Much Calcium [Re: ]
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered


Quote:
First of all, I am NOT resisting anything, just trying to figure out WHAT is trying to be done here.... One minute it is a study that has two vets, two labs and a team of 10 folks and then it goes to an uncontrolled study, next it wasnt about diets and then it was about diets from someone else on the same team...I am just trying to figure out WHAT they are needing, WHY they are needing it and WHO is going to be the one reading the bloodwork. Yet when questions are asked I am the one being told everyones names have to be kept silent. If it is wrong for me to not want to just turn over stuff to someone I dont know will be reading it, then I apologize.


Listen this was not presented to the community formally because it is NOT formal yet.. everyone started jumping the gun, I am/was answering questions the best way I could.. sorry if that is bothersome to you.. however.. if you and everyone else will please go back and read everything I have written.. NOTHING CHANGES.

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#842061 - 09/21/09 03:44 PM Re: Part 2: Too Much Calcium [Re: ]
Trigger Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 3970
Loc: Spring, Texas
The opposition you get from me was actually help. You stated you were looking at the Ca:P going in and comparing with what comes out in the bloodwork.

Yet you will not recognize that there IS a flaw in your mathwork.

Here is an easy one.
If I feed
2 tablespoons spinach raw fresh
1 & 1/2 teaspoon HPW mix
no treats no other foods

My ratio according to the USDA info & the calculating of Candys spreadsheet should be a 2:1.
And according to your theory & study I will be putting in 2:1 & should get blood work very close to a 2:1 and have a happy, healthy bouncing baby Apache. Correct?
_________________________
╗-(»`v┤»)-╗MO MONEY!╗-(»`v┤»)-╗
kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
www.jensfuzzyfriends.com

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#842066 - 09/21/09 03:50 PM Re: Part 2: Too Much Calcium [Re: Trigger]
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Trigger
The opposition you get from me was actually help. You stated you were looking at the Ca:P going in and comparing with what comes out in the bloodwork.

Agree you are helping Jen! thank you!

Yet you will not recognize that there IS a flaw in your mathwork.

What mathwork? Have we posted any mathwork? How can you call something wrong when you do not know?

Here is an easy one.
If I feed
2 tablespoons spinach raw fresh
1 & 1/2 teaspoon HPW mix
no treats no other foods

My ratio according to the USDA info & the calculating of Candys spreadsheet should be a 2:1.
And according to your theory & study I will be putting in 2:1 & should get blood work very close to a 2:1 and have a happy, healthy bouncing baby Apache. Correct?

NO.. we already know that spinach -lets use oxaylates are high and that you will not receive the full amount of calcium listes because of it.. so no.


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#842078 - 09/21/09 04:12 PM Re: Part 2: Too Much Calcium [Re: Srlb]
desertmommy Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 08/15/05
Posts: 184
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Originally Posted By: Srlb
First of all, I am NOT resisting anything


I apologize, Peggy. After our conversation the other night, then reading this thread, I was surprised by your responses. I now understand that my perception of your involvement in this thread was wrong.


Originally Posted By: Srlb
Now, if you all dont mind, this is about Calcium and if a glider can get too much and be overdosed with it.


I agree, and I apologize to Jennifer, also, for adding to the fodder.


Originally Posted By: Srlb
I really do wish you all the best in your ventures and I look forward to hearing and seeing the official results of your study written up by your team of vets and other professionals that will be working along with you all.


Don't know who you meant by "you all", so I will clarify, I am not involved at all. I was just commenting on my personal perception.
_________________________
Have you been groomed today?

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#842092 - 09/21/09 04:29 PM Re: Part 2: Too Much Calcium [Re: desertmommy]
Trigger Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 3970
Loc: Spring, Texas
Yes that is correct, spinach absorbable calcium is approx 5-10% of the whole content which is what the USDA provides.

My question is why not go to work figuring out better the TRUE ratio if you are going to spend money or put any glider at risk on a study comparing the input vs outcome of ratios?

I am not saying that the vets are going to decapitate gliders here, just that many vets do use anesthesia to do blood draws and some vets are not very experienced with them to begin on a glider so yes there is a degree of risk.

Do some work on the ratios you are using going into it because if you use incorrect data going in you will have that result as well. INCORRECT
_________________________
╗-(»`v┤»)-╗MO MONEY!╗-(»`v┤»)-╗
kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
www.jensfuzzyfriends.com

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#842096 - 09/21/09 04:33 PM Re: Part 2: Too Much Calcium [Re: ]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
I for one will not be putting my gliders through blood work for any study that is not COMPLETELY documented with - at the very least the basics of a Science Fair Project. (Sorry Kris, that is what this whole discussion is looking like - a Jr. High Science Project Proposal) The Proposal needs a lot of work before any testing can begin.

What is your theory or hypothesis?
What are ALL the variables?
How will you set up your testing to minimize the effect of the variables?
What are your Controls?
What are your testing methods?
What elements of the resulting data are you reporting?
How will you present your results? Tables, graph, etc.
What will people be able to do based on your results? Will a range of calcium intake (too much/too little) be determined?

None of us individually has the ability to set this up to be a truly objective study. Without controlling or at least minimizing the variables you will have nothing more than a lot of RANDOM Samples. Without all the specific details on each and every glider sampled including all the major variables - weight, exercise level, current diet, treats offered, etc. the values cannot be compared. It would be impossible to reach any conclusions on a pool of random, uncontrolled, and widely variable life conditions because there is NO BASELINE.

A BASELINE cannot be established from such totally random data. I would like to see the GRANT PROPOSAL to see exactly what you are stating in the proposal that you will be studying, what your study method and how you will report the outcome. I find it hard to believe the Grant requires you to use random samples as a baseline.

It is my hope that a study will eventually be done that will establish some guidelines with respect to how much calcium is enough and how much is too much so we can feed our gliders on the average somewhere between the two values. The same thing is true for protein and other elements of the glider's nutritional intake.

So far - NOTHING Kris has presented here leads me to believe this study will get us to the goal of establishing nutritional guidelines for our gliders.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#842107 - 09/21/09 04:43 PM Re: Part 2: Too Much Calcium [Re: desertmommy]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16744
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Toni, you know I love ya girl, no matter what. hug2

And I meant you all to whomever is involved in this. Doesnt matter to me who, I DO wish them well, I just DONT understand it...


Quote:
People are thinking that because you have blood drawls and xrays done yearly.. their gliders diet is wonderful and they have healthy gliders.. this simply may not be the case.. we have gliders dying very young.. why?



Ok so, if we dont have the proper equipment, xray machines and such, that you say is needed and you dont trust or should I rephrase that and say you dont think blood work or xrays would show anything in time, then what exactly IS going to show you what you are looking for. I guess THAT is my question. If you dont think that vets know everything, what is the difference of my vet looking at my bloodwork and your 2 vets looking at the bloodwork you guys are gathering. And I guess I dont understand what type of grant is asking for the CA;P ratios only to be able to apply and hopefully obtain a grant


Quote:
We want to show that even though you get your gliders blood checked and you get back a ratio of 2:1 when you are ONLY feeding 1:1 where is the add'l calcium coming from... standard Xrays do not show a bone loss until you have lost approx 30%... scans are VERY expensive and this is IF you can find a vet that will have the proper equipments.. etc.. We want to know if gliders "store" their calcium.. can too much be toxic, can you really not give too much? These are all the things we are hoping to find the answers to.


HOW are you planning on doing this?


Quote:
Originally Posted By: BabyLoveGliders
this is where we are being told we need to start.. .so lets start!


By whom?


Trigger had asked you by whom and I dont see where she was answered.

Do you think if I contacted Karen Milas with TGI she will be able to show me which grant it is you are applying for? So I can see where it states you need blood workups done to send in?
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love« Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#842138 - 09/21/09 05:46 PM Re: Part 2: Too Much Calcium [Re: Srlb]
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered


All of you are asking wonderful questions... and I have many of the same ones.. however you are asking the wrong person. "How am I planning on doing this" You guys are questioning and asking like I am going to be conducting these studies in a lab in my basement.. That is simply not the case. I will have no part in numbers, variables, tables, etc. The gliders will not be housed at my home. That will all be conducted from a team of people that KNOW what they are doing..So, please keep a list of questions and when we are ready you can ask the team of professionals until then, again I will ask that you please re read everything I posted.

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