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#840821 - 09/19/09 04:46 PM Galvanized metals.
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
For those that don't know, Zink coated metal IS galvanized metal.

The reason we don't use bare galvanized wire to make cages is that glider's urine reacts with the zink used to "galvanize" it.

Be sure when making your cages or toys that you do not use galvanized wire or parts.
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#840918 - 09/19/09 08:41 PM Re: Galvanized Products Cause UTI's [Re: Dancing]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Teresa, thanks Thanks for the reminder and also for the information about the zinc coated metal. I'm going to add your post to the Sticky about Hazardous Toys or Toy Parts & Cage Parts List thumb
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#841058 - 09/20/09 05:44 AM Re: Galvanized Products Cause UTI's [Re: sugarglidersuz]
hushpuppy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 1640
Loc: Mims, Florida, USA
With all due respect, I would like to challenge this. Do we know that zinc plating is hazardous, or is this another one of those old unsubstantiated claims? With all the contact that gliders have had with it, who has had a glider hurt or killed from it?
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#841124 - 09/20/09 10:30 AM Re: Galvanized Products Cause UTI's [Re: hushpuppy]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Here are some links that discuss heavy metal toxicity. While not glider specific, they are bird specific and since most things that are unsafe for birds are also considered unsafe for gliders, it shouldn't be chanced.


http://pet-birds.suite101.com/article.cfm/zinc_toxicity_in_pet_parrots

http://www.libertywildlife.org/pdf/Citizen%20Steward%20Sep%2007%20ziff.pdf

http://www.isrvma.org/article/61_1_6.htm

http://www.holisticbird.org/pages/hmetal.htm

Even Caroline MacPherson has info about zink toxicity in her sugar glider book. While I disagree with her in that she says to just wash the galvanized metal with vinager. I believe if washing it in vinager was enough to remove the toxicity factor, then the bird people would also know of this "trick" and more bird cages would be made out of galvanized metal and less birds would have died from zink toxicity.

If this isn't enough info, you can Google Galvanized Metal Toxicity and get even more links.
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#841180 - 09/20/09 12:09 PM Re: Galvanized Products Cause UTI's [Re: Dancing]
hushpuppy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 1640
Loc: Mims, Florida, USA
Thanks for the links but that doesn’t really answer the question that I asked. What you have posted is a theory that because some birds with their powerful beaks can in some circumstances break off pieces of galvanized metal and INGEST it, that the same is true for gliders. Metal toxicity comes from INGESTING the metals; not merely from being exposed to it. Currently gliders are exposed to zinc in much of their everyday life and so are a lot of other animals.

It is not uncommon to find galvanized out door aviaries (not hardware cloth, there is a difference) in warmer climates. Most other metals would quickly rust. And most bird owners have used them for years without incident. I actually have my flying squirrel in a galvanized cage. And you are correct; the vinegar rinse is something that has been used by bird owners without problems.

So if zinc plating is hazardous, and we already know that glider are being consistently exposed to it – hog rings, door locks, metal zipper pieces, paints, and split rings just to quickly name a few exposures, where are the death by metal necropsies? Where are the my glider got sick reports?

This has been placed on the hazardous toy parts list. I am just requesting clarification on how that was determined and what glider specific incidents have been reported?
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#841204 - 09/20/09 12:51 PM Re: Galvanized Products Cause UTI's [Re: hushpuppy]
TWilson
Unregistered


I know of a person that has used galvanized cages to house gliders for a long time and they've never had a problem. This isn't someone new to the community either and has nursed a many sick and injured glider back to health, not her own gliders, rescues that she has taken in.

I've often wondered about this subject because of that and how it was determined that gliders can get a UTI from galvanized wire when there are many that suffer from UTI's and NEVER been housed in a galvanized cage.

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#841407 - 09/20/09 06:22 PM Re: Galvanized Products Cause UTI's [Re: ]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
There is a thread in the archives relating to this, but I don't know how to validate the information contained;
http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/...lvaniz#Post8715
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#841458 - 09/20/09 07:09 PM Re: Galvanized Products Cause UTI's [Re: sugarlope]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Until this discussion has run its course, I am removing the information from the Sticky. Admin will determine if it should be added at a later time.
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#841646 - 09/20/09 10:29 PM Re: Galvanized Products Cause UTI's [Re: sugarglidersuz]
hushpuppy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 1640
Loc: Mims, Florida, USA
Tammy, yes I know a few that use or have used plain ol' hardware cloth without any problems. I wonder if they are the same ones that you know. And I guess that I forgot to post that I myself kept gliders in galvanized cages for a couple of years. No sickness, no mutilation, no problems at all. One of those gliders turned 11 a few weeks ago and another will be 10 in January.

Gretchen, you are a doll for taking the time to look that up. But I was hoping for something a little more definitive. But it was nice to see the names of some of the old timers.

Suz, thank you. I can always count on the folks here at GC to do what is right for gliders. And if anyone has knowledge of glider specific sickness or death, I would still like to know.
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#841814 - 09/21/09 08:52 AM Re: Galvanized Products Cause UTI's [Re: hushpuppy]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16758
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Ok, so I sent over an email to Tristan and asked him about this. I will post both my question and his response.

Quote:
On galvanized cages for gliders? Is there truly a concern or is it just a myth? If it is a concern, why?

Peggy Brewer


His response:

Quote:
yes they are a concern because they contain zinc. Animals may chew on the bars and ingest the zinc....zinc toxicity.
Tim


Hope this helps.
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#841816 - 09/21/09 08:58 AM Re: Galvanized Products Cause UTI's [Re: Srlb]
hushpuppy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 1640
Loc: Mims, Florida, USA
Peggy, ask him how many cases of zinc toxicity he has seen in gliders. Thanks for the help.
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#841825 - 09/21/09 09:24 AM Re: Galvanized Products Cause UTI's [Re: hushpuppy]
TWilson
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: hushpuppy
Tammy, yes I know a few that use or have used plain ol' hardware cloth without any problems. I wonder if they are the same ones that you know. And I guess that I forgot to post that I myself kept gliders in galvanized cages for a couple of years. No sickness, no mutilation, no problems at all. One of those gliders turned 11 a few weeks ago and another will be 10 in January.


Probably is Anita! grin

And from what I've heard, her cages are beautiful. They are older as she has had them for many years but I was told they still look brand new.

I've heard so many instances where powder coated cages rust after only a year and gliders are still housed in them. Also, I've only had one glider that ever chewed on the cage and she was a rescue and ate the coating off the cage cause that was all she had to eat. (Before she came to me) Other than that, I've never had a glider chew on the cage bars.

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#841832 - 09/21/09 10:04 AM Re: Galvanized Products Cause UTI's [Re: ]
Avri
Unregistered


Does chewing on fingers through the bars count? grin


Edited by Avri (09/21/09 10:05 AM)

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#841840 - 09/21/09 10:27 AM Re: Galvanized Products Cause UTI's [Re: ]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16758
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Anita, just got off the phone with him. He said he has personally not seen the first case of it in gliders, however, that doesnt mean it doesnt exist. Also he said it is advised not to use it and this is a preventable risk. Personally, he wouldnt risk it himself because although he hasnt seen it in gliders (he feels because people dont use galvanized), he has seen it many times in birds. thumb
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#841845 - 09/21/09 10:33 AM Re: Galvanized Products Cause UTI's [Re: ]
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered


This is very interesting... I have read many of the old stickies here and many have also been proven wrong.. like the Lima bean etc... I am not educated on this particular subject enough to comment.. I just love seeing new things evolve and the Facts turn to Myths.

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#841858 - 09/21/09 11:08 AM Re: Galvanized Products Cause UTI's [Re: ]
TWilson
Unregistered


Just doing a little research on galvanized wire. Interestingly enough, there are 2 kinds. The zinc coated and there is what is called hot dipped galvanized and they are very different.

Most sites I've looked at warns of INHALING the zinc from the wire while cutting or burning it, that is how you become poisoned from it.

Another interesting thought, I grew up in an older home and ALL the plumbing pipes, including the water pipes were all galvanized pipes. Also, in my line of work, we rehabb older homes for elderly people and almost always, they have galvanized water piping!

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#841866 - 09/21/09 11:18 AM Galvanized Products Cause UTI's
KarenE Offline
Owner

Registered: 03/25/00
Posts: 41396
Loc: LittleRock, AR USA
From the moment I picked up my first glider I was told never to use a cage made with galvanized wire because it would kill my glider. The metal would give off a toxic reaction if a glider urinated on it. Later I read it would more than likely give them a UTI and not kill them.

So just how dangerous are galvanized products or is this something they have passed down to all the newbies.

I am going to merge an ongoing discussion from Housing here to determine if this is indeed

Fact or Fiction thumb
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#842050 - 09/21/09 03:36 PM Re: Galvanized Products Cause UTI's [Re: KarenE]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
I should have been more specific in my posting, Anita - I meant to draw attention to this part;
Quote:
the Preston Road Clinic in
Dallas discovered this in several gliders a few years back.


Does anyone know/go to that clinic that they could ask them about it?

As far as galvanization, I have also heard that it depends on how the cage is galvanized as to the level of risk (dunno). If it is galvanized after it is welded it is supposed to safer - again, dunno
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#842082 - 09/21/09 04:15 PM Re: Galvanized Products Cause UTI's [Re: sugarlope]
hushpuppy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 1640
Loc: Mims, Florida, USA
Dang Gretchen, I sat and typed out a long responce where I said that there hasn't been one documented case and now there MIGHT be. If anyone has contact with this place I would sure be interested in the who, what, where, when and how.
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#842085 - 09/21/09 04:20 PM Re: Galvanized Products Cause UTI's [Re: sugarlope]
hushpuppy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 1640
Loc: Mims, Florida, USA
Ok, this is delayed so I will go ahead a post the long responce.

Several times I’ve asked glider specific documentation. And so far there isn’t any even though our gliders are exposed to zinc all the time.

So let me see if I can explain it. Steel Rusts. No doubt about it. And it can happen pretty quickly. So to stop the rust metal is galvanized. The term galvanizing simply means that a coat of zinc has been placed on the outside of the metal. Nothing more, nothing less. But as Tammy said, there are several ways to galvanize.

One way to galvanize metal is to dip the metal into the zinc and dry it. This is the way most hardware cloth is made. With this you get the dull, gray, rough, porous looking surface that you see on hardware cloth. You might also see little drips and blobs on the surface and it is usually those drips and blobs that birds break off and swallow. But think about the anatomy of a glider and how small their esophagus is. My gliders can’t swallow chicken much less metal.

One of the other ways to galvanize metal it what is known as zinc plating; same steel, same zinc. But with zinc plating they use an electrical charge. This changes the zinc to a rock hard surface that is as smooth as a baby’s behind. This is the kind of galvanized metal that is used in so many things that our gliders come into contact with each and every day.

You got a PVC coated cage? What about the rings and clips that holds it together? Unless you asked for and paid extra for stainless, they are zinc plated. The same is true for the locks on the doors.

Zippers in some cages and pouches; even if they are plastic, the stops and pulls are probably metal. Since the people who make the zippers know you want to toss them in the washer, metal parts would be zinc plated.

Nichol plated bells in the toys? What about the clapper, more than likely it’s galvanized.

Now look around your house. What about all the metal stuff you see? Zinc? Look at your lamps. No, not the brass parts or the pretty shades, but the other metal parts. Zinc? Screws that hold your furniture together? The zipper in your jeans? If it doesn’t rust and it isn’t one of the special metals like stainless, copper or brass, it’s galvanized.

What about metal grommets? Zinc? What about split rings?

Ok, I could go on and on, but I think it is clear that we are exposing gliders to zinc and lot of it, and still no one can show where it has harmed a glider.
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#842227 - 09/21/09 08:45 PM Re: Galvanized Products Cause UTI's [Re: hushpuppy]
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 6894
Loc: NW Missouri
I don't have any proof one way or the other, but I will say that when I built my cages, I did pay extra for the stainless door handles and j clips. I can't say that none of my toys or pouch zippers don't have zinc because I didn't make them and I don't know what brands were used. A cage exposure would be much higher than a zipper exposure for my gliders. And they're never exposed to lamps or anything like that. So, even if there is zinc in them, they wouldn't be in contact with it. I had always heard that the concern wasn't death, but a Urinary Tract Infection when the gliders urinated on the zinc and the zinc reacted with their urine. There are many cases of UTI's in gliders, but whether or not those have been proven to come from zinc exposure, I don't know. None of my gliders have ever had UTI's. I would think it would be simple for someone with a scientific background to apply urine to galvanized wire and see if there is any "reaction" like is so commonly thought.
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#842265 - 09/21/09 09:57 PM Re: Galvanized Products Cause UTI's [Re: hushpuppy]
tlkngfethrs1 Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 10/15/08
Posts: 325
Loc: Fort Wayne, Indiana
clap Well put!
I also would like to know the true danger behind this as I have made cages from hardware cloth (HC) for years and was crushed to hear I could not use it for gliders..
but to stay on the safe side I have never used it with my gliders.. but it seems odd to hear about birds.. I have Had lots of birds in HC over the years in fact we still have a senior love bird in it right now!! my Mom and I have had her since she was born.. A friend had a female hatch her and reject her so she was feed and rasied by me.. and we put her in that due to the fact she will chew out of most all cages made.... so it was a lot cheaper to make her new ones every 6-8 months than to by her a $100.+ cage. but my point here is she has been in them most of her life.. and she is OLD...
I would LOVE to see more on this!!!!
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#842282 - 09/21/09 10:15 PM Re: Galvanized Products Cause UTI's [Re: princessmegi]
KattyM Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 9910
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Originally Posted By: princessmegi
I would think it would be simple for someone with a scientific background to apply urine to galvanized wire and see if there is any "reaction" like is so commonly thought.

I would think a layperson could run a test, taking galvanized wire and the type of wire that is commonly purchased to make glider cages and apply urine to it to see how much/how often the urine would have to be applied for a reaction (if any) to occur. I would think that gliders, like people, would have different compositions in their urine, so you could try samplings from different gliders.

It seems the gist of the argument is that galvanized wire could corrode like uncoated steel, so even though it is zinc coated, it may not be as safe as pvc- or powder-coated wire because rubbing against it could lead to UTIs (either because it is corroded or because of a reaction with the zinc)? So repeated exposure to the clocoa area is the issue? dunno Smaller parts used in toys and pouches might not be a concern if that were the case since gliders wouldn't be rubbing against those the same way. And then it seems another argument is that the zinc itself can somehow be ingested (gliders chewing on the bars, or holding the bars and licking their hands) and it could be toxic to gliders as it is in birds? dunno

I just want to make sure I have a handle on the debate. This is interesting!
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#842286 - 09/21/09 10:22 PM Re: Galvanized Products Cause UTI's [Re: sugarlope]
jacknsally Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/30/05
Posts: 3224
Loc: North Fort Worth - TX
Originally Posted By: sugarlope


Does anyone know/go to that clinic that they could ask them about it?



That's the name of one of the clinics I've used for gliders. One of the vets that practices there has been highly recommended. In my experience they are very knowledgeable with gliders. I'll put out a phone call to them tomorrow or so.
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#842388 - 09/22/09 06:40 AM Re: Galvanized Products Cause UTI's [Re: Srlb]
hushpuppy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 1640
Loc: Mims, Florida, USA
What the OP posted was true. Zinc Plated is galvanized, but that is a very simplistic view. It's kind of like saying that Powder coating is Paint. Which it is. But once that powdered paint has had an electrical charge added to it, it is extremely different. Likewise, once the zinc has been charged, it is very different.

Megi, I'm glad that you took all those precautions, but I'm not sure how that is relevant. The point is that gzillions of gliders are exposed daily, without it being a problem.
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#842548 - 09/22/09 12:45 PM Re: Galvanized Products Cause UTI's [Re: hushpuppy]
TWilson
Unregistered


I have a theory about UTI's in gliders, and I stress it is just my theory!

UTI's are caused by bacteria and 90% of the time, E coli is the culprit. That is a fact in humans.

I've watched my gliders urinate on the side of the cage as most of us have. Their cloaca opens up when the urine comes out and repeatedly closes as they are finishing up. HERE is the theory part, what are the chances that they are picking up a bacteria when they urinate and bringing it into their bladder when they are finishing?

I wondered so many times about this because EVERY UTI I've heard about, I know those people DON'T have galvanized cages.

Honestly, I cannot see a UTI being caused by galvanized metal because zinc is NOT a bacteria and that IS what causes UTI's. Gliders get a UTI and it is antibotics that clears it up, that is bacterial.

Also, I've read the same thing Anita, it is the little globs/drips on the galvanized metal that the birds will peck off and eat and the zinc will continue to build in their system until it reaches toxic levels. BUT not all galvanized wire will have the drips, the cheaper stuff will but not the more expensive galvanized wire.

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#842950 - 09/23/09 03:37 AM Re: Galvanized Products Cause UTI's [Re: ]
wildlifeangel Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1414
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
That makes sense to me about the bacteria.

Because the power coated cages are actually akin to plastic (right?) in that the outside is a carbon based compound. Plastics are known to not encourage the growth of bacteria... meaning that bacteria will not grow on plastic alone. But... plastic actually will not kill bacteria, so the bacteria will go dormant until something comes along... such as the glider urinating on that spot. If there was e-coli on that spot, the glider would pick it up when the tried to urinate on that spot.

Also, metals are known to kill/inhibit/stop the growth of bacteria. That is why some of the new bandaids have silver in them, to kill bacteria. So the galvanized steel would actually be more hygenic than the coated steel because the zinc is killing bacteria that could be infectious. This would actually benefit the gliders, because you wouldn't have to be quite as worried about UTIs and wiping down cage bars, because the metal would help with sanitization.

This is just what I know from microbiolgy and working at the hospital, put into glider contexts. I use coated cages...
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#843002 - 09/23/09 08:30 AM Re: Galvanized Products Cause UTI's [Re: wildlifeangel]
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 6894
Loc: NW Missouri
It's relevant because most people who have built cages go to the trouble of asking for stainless. A huge amount of people get their building plans from PixTrix and she always says to go for stianless. At least she made it clear to me when she helped me with my building plans. And as far as all the little bits of zinc in other things around my house, my gliders cloaca' do not come into contact with them. On the boards the issue has always been UTI prevention through not using galvanized because it was thought to react with urine at the cloaca. The worry was never ingestion, as it is with birds.
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#843007 - 09/23/09 08:46 AM Re: Galvanized Products Cause UTI's [Re: princessmegi]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16758
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Ok, so I was talking with Dr.Raphael yesterday (he is our dog vet) and I asked him if it is possible for an animal to get a UTI from a galvanized cage, he said the SAME thing Tim did, the problem with galvanized cages would be the zinc toxicity from the animals chewing on the cage, not so much the UTI's because UTI's are caused from bacteria, not zinc...He did say if you had a dirty cage you could get a UTI from that, however, it doesnt HAVE to be galvanized cage, any dirty cage could cause that.
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#843082 - 09/23/09 11:59 AM Re: Galvanized Products Cause UTI's [Re: Srlb]
hushpuppy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 1640
Loc: Mims, Florida, USA
Dang, I was hoping ya’ll would go easy on me and I would have to do this. HaHa I should have known better.

Common household item containing zinc:

Nearly all nail, screws or metal building parts, pennies, fake jewelry, decorative adornments used on purses (including hardware) and clothing and crafts, batteries, curtain stays and rings, curtain rods, closet rods, computers, printers, tv’s, remote controls, cell phones, paints and varnishes, some glues, aerosol cans and aerosols, Some food utensils, Picture frames, Toilet parts, Shower doors, Candles, Washer and dryer, Fridge, window blind parts, cabinet door and dresser knobs, lamps including the brass, paper clips, coat hangers, clothes pins, handles and hinges, ink pens, springs, some flower post, notebook binding, metal ladders and stools, light bulbs, decorative chains, holiday decorations, sewing machines, metal screens…not a complete list but now I’m getting tired of typing.

Zinc Oxide is used in many skin preparations such as lotions, ointments, powders, and antiseptics and some shampoos.

Zinc is also used in many alloys such as brass, aluminum solder, and nickel silver.

All that exposure yet we still don’t have one case of glider related illness or death. All we have is a maybe from over six years ago...interesting.


Edited by hushpuppy (09/23/09 12:00 PM)
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