Sugar Glider Community Calendar

Please click here to see larger view
Articles
More coming soon!!
Today's Birthdays
Sherri
Featured Member
Registered: 12/11/17
Posts: 5
Last 10 Posts
Self Mutilating
by Feather
05:42 PM
Grieving sugar glider
by Feather
05:33 PM
BML Help
by Feather
05:32 PM
Another Prolapsed cloaca
by JenK
02:36 PM
Recipe for glider yogi's please!
by Ladymagyver
01:58 PM
Hi new to forum.
by durga
10:36 AM
Three weeks in, first timer, questions .
by Lisa11
02:26 AM
New odor issue??
by AlyCatz
10:56 PM
Injured Tail W/No Vet Instru/Help!
by Ladymagyver
08:46 PM
Lighter Gliders??
by Feather
05:59 PM
Google+

Facebook
Join Us On Facebook
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#848579 - 10/05/09 06:30 PM Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects?
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
I have often heard this said, but have never seen it happen. Breeding a leucistic sugar glider to another leucistic sugar glider has been a 'no-no' for a long time and I understand the reasoning behind it in the past; the bloodlines were still too close to breed two gliders that were obviously out of leucistic lines. However, this 'no-no' didn't hold to leucistic hets. The reason I am so confused is this:

Say two pairs of gliders have two joeys each, one pair two boys, and the other pair two girls. For argument's sake we will say that each of these four parents had a leucistic parent and a grey parent with no leu lineage, and all four are distant enough from each other that they are virtually unrelated. They each have a leucistic joey and a 66% leucistic het joey.

Now, along the current line of thinking, it would be acceptable to pair the leucistic male with the 66% het female, or the leucistic female with the 66% het male, or the two 66% het joeys together, but it would NOT be acceptable to put the two leucistic joeys together. They carry the same lineage as their siblings, but would be considered a bad breeding practice to pair them based on the color of their fur. Some used to say it is because of how closely the lines are bred--but they continued to breed 100% hets together (even those with leucistic siblings, which means the fact that they were hets and not leucistic is simply the luck of the draw). Others say that pairing two leucistic gliders together would produce genetic defects, health problems, and deformities. I haven't seen that this is the case, though, with the few leu to leu pairings I have heard of.

What I am asking for is confirmation whether this is true, that breeding two leucistics will cause sickly and genetically faulty joeys, or if it is a rumor that needs to be dispelled. I understand some of you are still of the mind that even the two hypothetical 66% het joeys should not be paired because we are still breeding the leu lines out, but there are many, many breeders that do not feel that way, that have 100% leu het pairs, or even leu to 100% het pairs, which were both born from leu to 100% het pairings, and the only thing that would make this unacceptable or frowned upon is if the lineages *were* too close to breed.

Please, can someone help me understand?? confused

Edit: I am sorry if this shouldn't have been posted right away, I read the first post and it said they would have to be approved! Apologies if I did this wrong!!


Edited by kitsune (10/05/09 06:31 PM)
_________________________
Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

Top
#848596 - 10/05/09 07:02 PM Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: kitsune]
Gucciburger
Unregistered


I have heard somewhere (I cannot remember where) that Breeding Leu to Leu can create a very High chance of having Deaf babies like 50% or something. Though this can also be fiction! I am not sure.

Top
#848598 - 10/05/09 07:08 PM Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: ]
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
I have heard that as well, Gucci, but have never seen or heard of a single deaf leucistic. Since leu to leu would only produce leu offspring, it is safe to assume any deaf offspring would be leucistic. The only two people I know of that have bred leu to leu were Sheila of To And Fro and Dianne of Heartland Gliders, and none of the offspring resulting from these two pairings has produced an unhealthy baby. So...only two pairs, only one pair bred more than once, and none of the joeys were unhealthy?? Where did the deaf rumor even come from, I wonder?
_________________________
Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

Top
#848642 - 10/05/09 08:27 PM Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: kitsune]
7glider7
Unregistered


The deaf rumor probably started because in multiple species of animals its been shown that white animals have a much higher chance of being deaf. White coloration is typically a recessive trait, and when recessive alleles combine, you carry a higher chance of getting deleterious linked alleles like deafness.

That said, I have never heard of a deaf leu glider; there are many with more experience in the glider world than me though.

My understanding was that people were determining which matches were appropriate based on inbreeding coefficents and not based on fur color alone. Breeding two closely related non-leus wouldn't be any more acceptable than breeding two closely related leus. I'm not sure who would condone such a practice based on coat color alone and not taking into account the degree of relatedness dunno Is this going on? dunno If so, people need to reexamine how they decide on which gliders to pair together.

I have heard more substantiated claims that leu gliders may have weaker immune systems than non-leu gliders. I remember reading a thread where somebody's colonies got sick, and it seemed to be the leu gliders who were more likely to be ill than the grays (forgive me, I am forgetting who this was and the details). That said, this of course is not hard proof of anything.

I haven't heard of any massive deformities or problems. I think the reason people are hesitant (and SHOULD BE) to breed leu x leu is because there is a much greater CHANCE of deformities or problems. Sometimes problems don't show up until later, and then, you could already have some lines that are now "messed up." Sterility in the mosaics is a great example.

Sorry I can't be of more help. tounge

Top
#848658 - 10/05/09 08:49 PM Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: ]
cyndiekb Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/08/03
Posts: 5916
Loc: Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
I hate to think someone will do this just to prove this out. Most likely the first line of joeys would be ok. It would be more likely the further generations is when you would see the health problems. I hope no one is going to make the gliders pay for human ignorance.

Also I am not sure Sheila bred Leu to lue I think she would need to confirm that. It is not something I was aware of anyway. I know there is some that has though. I just don't know who it was.
_________________________
cyndiekb

I heart & miss you HALEY

My runaways 4/04 Lilo, 5/04 Dash & Angel

angel Sprite Says GO STEALTH!! at
AtticWorx

Top
#848662 - 10/05/09 08:53 PM Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: ]
heartlandglider Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 11/29/06
Posts: 282
Loc: In
Before I approach this topic, I know there will always be those that will see nothing wrong and those that will think this is still a no no. I'm sure this post won't change eithers minds.
Since I have been asked regarding my pairing I will respond. I would have to go check exactly how many joeys Frosty and Snow had, but I feel safe in saying around 10. I never experienced any problems with any of these joeys. They were all born healthy and to my knowledge remain so. Those of you that may have one of these joeys are welcome to add their comments.
I would have no problem in pairing two leus together again as long as the pedigrees were compatible. This I have also found depends on whom is doing the breedings.
As long as there is no documented proof of problems with some of the pairings people are doing, including leu to leu, I don't see a problem with it .
_________________________
Dianne Kieffer
Heartland Gliders




Top
#848675 - 10/05/09 09:12 PM Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: heartlandglider]
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
Jen, I think you may have misunderstood, I wasn't saying that people were pairing gliders based on coat color instead of genetic compatibility; I was asking why a genetically sound match would be acceptable or not based on coat color. In other words, a pairing that would otherwise be healthy and have good lineage together would be considered unwise because of the coat colors of the gliders to be paired (IE two leu gliders).

I have never heard of leus having immunity problems, I heard it was albinos. There was a lady in Canada with an albino breeding program that lost all of her albinos to an odd sickness but none of her other gliders. As for sterility in mosaics, this is actually due to continued inbreeding, not a problem that surfaced from bad breeding further back in the lines, which is why breeders now are working to breed these lines out, which has improved the sterility issues greatly.

Cyndie, this is one of the reasons I started this thread. I would like to see fact put to rumor. If there is some fact out there in all of this rumor floating around, it would be wonderful to have it somewhere that more inexperienced breeders could access it.

Sheila bred Sammie to Saleen. You can see pictures of the two of them on Saleen's page, here. The url of the picture indicates that the two are Saleen and Sammie. It was some time ago, and she only allowed the pair to breed once before she split them and put them with other mates. I do remember that they had a joey, I could be wrong but I think it was a male. The joey was healthy and went on to breed and produce healthy joeys.
_________________________
Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

Top
#848678 - 10/05/09 09:17 PM Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: kitsune]
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
I just did a search in the PSG database, the single male joey they had was Horatio, which can be found in many lineages today.
_________________________
Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

Top
#848680 - 10/05/09 09:18 PM Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: heartlandglider]
SugareeErin Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 3843
Loc: Lisle, Illinois
I believe there was also at one time concern of a fatal white gene.

Dianee since you have done such a pairing, how old are the leus produced from your leu-leu pairing now? Are all still living? How many do you have in your possesion still? (if you don't mind, I think this would be helpful information to consider in this thread)

I don't think we will truly know the answer to this for many years, until these leu-leu joeys have passed on and had necropsies. Not all deformities can be seen by the naked eye, so even if they look and seem healthy that may not be the case.

I'm not saying one way or another, just my thoughts on the subject.
_________________________

:leu: Sugaree Gliders :rtmo:


Simba, Nala, Rain, Snow & Sugaree

Shadowdancer, Sugar Magnolia, Sunshine Daydream, Winter, Twinkle, Twilight, Everlette, Sparkle, Polar Bear, Indigo & Willow









Top
#848686 - 10/05/09 09:38 PM Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: SugareeErin]
Trigger Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 3970
Loc: Spring, Texas
Isn't Horatio the glider that died last year?
_________________________
-(`v)-MO MONEY!-(`v)-
kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
www.jensfuzzyfriends.com

Top
#848692 - 10/05/09 09:46 PM Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: Trigger]
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
Yes, he was Gliders4U's when he died. Maybe she can shed some light on why he died? Although, I would venture to say that there has been speculation that all leucistics originated from the same lines since they can all be traced back to the same mill in Indonesia. Sammie and Saleen could have been closely related, there is just no way to know. Additionally, if Dianne says that she has bred 10 healthy joeys from her leu to leu pairing, it seems to me that a single premature death from a one time breeding would not prove one way or the other.

Erin, I can understand what you are saying about lethal white, but from what I have read about this condition it is related to Waardenburg's Syndrome and is characterized by a partial whitening in a certain pattern, rather than a pure white animal. There are some breeds of dog that cannot be bred together if they are white, the same way two dapple (or mearle) chihuahuas or dachshunds bred together leads to many health problems. Ferrets with a non-symmetrical patterning of white commonly have WS. This seems to match the mosaic gene more closely than the leu gene, though. I would also hesitate to compare genetic issues in dog breeding to sugar glider breeding; it's no closer than comparing breeding mice, which have no problems whatsoever breeding white to white.
_________________________
Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

Top
#848912 - 10/06/09 01:04 PM Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: kitsune]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Personly I think it is too soon to bred Leu to Leu.

Sammy and Ssleen bred together by ToandFro were Leus. Saleen herself a few years later became sickly and after an extended period of over a year died. Her life was short as was her breeding ability. I own Sesamie (Sammy's sister) and ShyBaby (Saleen's brother) and they are very Healthy as are all the offspring for five or six generations. Sesamie is 7 years old... with ShyBaby (Neutered a year ago) being over five years. This one pair of foundation breeders to this day are very Healthy and remain together as my Pets.

As to Diane's pair... it is too soon to justify such a pairing of Leu to Leu. The Leus she has are vrry Healthy but it will be the Offspring's offspring that will need to be looked at as to wither or not they remain Sound in overall Health.

The only way to breed out the Leucistic is by pairing a Leu to a Normal which produces 100% Leu Hets with 50% diversity from the main population of grays. These offspring then are paired to the main population of grays again and 50% Possible Hets then will dilute the Leu Lines even further to breed back to a Leu.

Breeding Leu to Leu does nothing to create Diversity in a breeding program. All it does is produce All Wbite offspring.

_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

Top
#848945 - 10/06/09 03:09 PM Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: Judie]
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
But Judie, why is it too soon to breed leu to leu if the lineages are far enough out to breed two hets that have leucistic siblings? What I am asking is what the difference is between a het and a leu with the same exact lineage. There may be some leucistics that have had genetic health problems, but there have been hets as well. I would venture to say there are many more healthy leus than sickly ones. One short-lived leu does not indicate that all leus are fragile, or that they would pass this fragility down to their joeys simply because of their coat color. If you are looking for diversity in the bloodlines, het to het or het to leu should not be bred together anymore than leu to leu. Sesame is leu, Shybaby is a leu het out of a brother and sister pairing of 100% leu hets. He could have easily been born a leu, how would that change the healthiness of the joeys? It would have been the same lineage if he were leu. The fact that Saleen was short-lived provides more reason for Horatio to be as well than the fact that both of his parents were leus; Saleen was not bred from a leu to leu pairing. It sounds to me like Saleen had a genetic problem that was passed down to her son, which can happen with any color variant. This is obviously not the case with Dianne's leu to leu offspring.

In the end it very simply comes down to the genes carried by each glider. If there are defective genes in a leu, those same defective genes would be passed to a grey sibling. There is the same chance that it would be passed, and matched up with the same gene in another leu het, than if the two paired were leus with the same lineage.
_________________________
Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

Top
#849005 - 10/06/09 06:06 PM Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: kitsune]
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
SORRY IF MY POST IS BABBLING, I GET SO TIED UP IN WHAT I'M READING AND I LOVE TALKING ABOUT GENETICS AND LEARNING MORE, I DON'T KNOW WHEN TO SHUT UP ;-)


Kitsune I totally agree with you 100%

Many Many breeders have Leu to het pairs which could very well be the same if not very similar to Leu to Leu pairs.

Lets say:
You have one pair, they produce twins, a leu and a het baby
You have another pair, they produce twins, a Leu and a het baby.

The babies born from each pair are 6+ generations apart.

It's "frowned" upon to breed the LEU to the LEU but it's NOT "frowned" upon to breed the HET to the HET or the HET to the LEU.

That makes no sense since they have the same genetics as far as anyone knows right now.

We are ASSUMING that some genetic defect is linked to the gene that brings out the WHITE color which is purely speculation!
This speculation is based on accounts with different animals (dogs, cats, etc) and based on poorly done research where leu gliders (or colored gliders) have been the ones to get sick over the grays at someones home.
This is bad research!

There is no constants, there are too many variables to call anything with Leu's FACT.

Many breeders also have Leu to Gray pairings producing hets which will be a carrier of whichever genetic defect that the Leu carries.

Genetic defects get passed similar to genes like color get passed.

I'm just going to make an example here
If the Leu is dominant for, say, the gene for a certain liver problem. You breed that Leu to a standard gray.

You will now have a 100% Leu het who is also 100% het for the liver problem. The het won't SHOW the liver problem and will never get sick from it, but still carries that.

Then we breed this 100% leu het who is 100% het for the liver problem to another glider who is say, 25% het for this liver problem (we never knew that). The babies may wind up having this liver problem proving the 25% het for the liver problem to be a 100% het, therefore a carrier of the liver problem.
Maybe that standard gray did not EVER come from leu lines.


IMO A lot of things we go on now with genetics is pure speculation.

We have no rock solid evidence (that i know of) that ANY gene for ANY disorder is linked to the Leu color.


In a human, if someone is a carrier for Mediterranean anemia and they have a baby with someone else who is a carrier for Mediterranean anemia, the baby can have the disease and have a tough life and in some cases die before the age of 16.

The people who are most likely to carry this disease are Asians, Africans, and those from the Mediterranean. That does NOT mean that ALL PEOPLE who are in those categories carry that disease or even have that disease.

This is a PROVEN fact through genetic testing/genetic analysis.


This is similar to what we are SPECULATING happens with Leu gliders but we don't know for sure.

Where are the genetic tests, the genetic analysis, controlled, properly preformed experiments that say that there is anything that is linked to the white coloration in sugar gliders?

As far as I know, there is NONE.


Now In my opinion we are going about breeding in the wrong way with our leu/hets/etc

What we need to do, *****and this is based on quickly reading a site on rats and breeding*****
is line breed and inbreed until we know FACTS about the lines we have and what they carry.

In creating healthy lines we must (again from the site) breed 2 gliders, then breed back to the parent. We can not sell these offspring and they must be kept in a controlled environment and observed. We need to express poor genetics and diseases and figure out what they are linked to so that we can actually breed out the diseases by careful breeding and I dont think ANYONE (to my knowledge) is doing this.

The site seems to make sense to me. In order to have lines and lines of HEALTHY animals we must find out what genes (for diseases or disorders) we're isolating and then get rid of them. We're not doing that. The only genetics we're isolating and breeding out for is Color and sterility which are the least of our worries.


Here is a GREAT quote from the site (not word for word as to not be accused of copyright infringement)


All too often when we out cross to get rid of a problem and it just hides the recessives enabling the negative trait to show up later in the line (and in other lines as the animals are outcrossed more).


IMO from reading this article Outcrossing is not really what we should be doing because now we might be spreading poor genetics that we can't see, to other lines.

(say Leucistics are carriers of bladder problems that we don't know about. We outcross them with our standard gray lines, with our mosaic lines, with our white face lines. Now 30 years down the road we find out that, OOPSE leus were the carriers of the bladder problems and now all of our other lines have that problem. That will take many years to fix)


*deep breath*

I told you I babble :-)

Top
#849033 - 10/06/09 08:14 PM Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: GliderFun]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
The Foundation Lines were line bred for several generations.

Then the newer generation of breeders came along and critized above breeders for doing so claiming that there would be genetic problems if there was not more diversity in the Leu Lineages.

Thus... the out breeding of the Leucistic Glider.

Now, I do not approve of Inbreeding but do not have a problem with Line Breeding.

As to Line Breeding.... I do know that the chances or ruining a line can be ruined by outcrossing as the possibility rises of introducing a genetic problem to an already non tainted line. Others do not see it this way... and are hung up on possible genetic issues with the Linebreeding.

With us smaller breeders... none of us are setup to hold several generations of all of the offspring we produce even if it were only one color line such as the Leucistic and in a controlled inviroment.

Without a proper study being done on the Leucistics only (Leu x Leu) in a controlled enviroment for seven to ten years... I would not even consider pairing a Leu to Leu.

My goal as a breeder has always been to produce Healthy Gliders without compromising their health no matter what their color.
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

Top
#849049 - 10/06/09 08:43 PM Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: Judie]
Suggiegramma Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 1520
Loc: St. Charles, Missouri
I think part of the problem is that people who don't know what they're doing are starting to breed. It takes dedication and a lot of knowledge to make a correct pairing.
_________________________
Virginia

Suggies
Sachi,Miuccia,Mignon,Cosette,Blaise,Florianna,Fabio,
Abbi,Fletcher,Eshton,Hansel,Gretel,Sahara,Parker,SugarBear,
Emily,Ariana,Symphony,Mozart,Smeegle,Cocoa,Hershey,Tippy,
Hollister,Anastasia,Buffy,Tawny,Stormy,Aurora,Chance,Karma,
Kristoff,Ruby.



Top
#849050 - 10/06/09 08:43 PM Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: Judie]
GoGoGliders
Unregistered


I usually don't get involved in these debates but I can throw my medical background into the mix.


From above:

Genetic defects get passed similar to genes like color get passed.

I'm just going to make an example here
If the Leu is dominant for, say, the gene for a certain liver problem. You breed that Leu to a standard gray.

You will now have a 100% Leu het who is also 100% het for the liver problem. The het won't SHOW the liver problem and will never get sick from it, but still carries that.


This is why you "breed-out" the lines......the thought is that since the leu gene is recessive, there MIGHT be other genetic deficiencies that are carried on that recessive gene. In your example above, the liver problem. However, because you have breed it to a gray, the gray's DNA will "fill in the hole" of the defect causing the liver problem, thereby not allowing the liver disease to manifest. The DNA of the gray (without the recessive component) will patch the defect on the recessive component. If you breed recessive to recessive, there is a significantly decreased possibility that those genetic "holes" are filled by intact DNA and thus an increased chance of a genetic defect being expressed.

That is just my two cents....

Top
#849053 - 10/06/09 08:45 PM Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: Judie]
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
But again, what is the difference between what I said above about this:



You have one pair, they produce twins, a leu and a het baby
You have another pair, they produce twins, a Leu and a het baby.

The babies born from each pair are 6+ generations apart.

It's "frowned" upon to breed the LEU X LEU but it's NOT "frowned" upon to breed the HET X HET or the HET X LEU.

99% of breeders either bred leu to het/het to het or still do.

This *could* very well be just as "dangerous" as breeding Leu X Leu. It's still done each and every day.



I dont see why the older breeders stopped what they were doing when it was, what i think it right, and was weeding out genetic problems in the lines. Because of some new-aged breeders saying that their life's work is all wrong they stop and introduce outside gliders into their lines thus muddying it all up and ruining their lives work.


It almost seems like people don't want to have pure, clean, healthy lines.


With all this outcrossing going on, we will never be able to track down the bad genes and breed them out. Seems like we're working in reverse, especially since this method of eliminating poor genes and defects proves effective.

I think that someone needs to take the initiative and, for the good of all gliders, TRULY make a healthy line of gliders.

My fear is that through all of this outcrossing, we're going to introduce a slew of diseases to our lines and soon, all the gliders will be so unhealthy, who knows if we'll ever be able to reverse the damage.

There are breeders on here who have 100's of gliders.

If you have room for 100's of gliders, why don't you (not aimed to anyone in particular) start a breeding program to produce healthy, pure, lines like we were attempting to do in the first place. I mean, i think i went on someone's website once and counted like 200+ gliders... not quite sure who that was though.


Who wants to volunteer for this task?

Top
#849055 - 10/06/09 08:49 PM Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: Suggiegramma]
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Suggiegramma
I think part of the problem is that people who don't know what they're doing are starting to breed. It takes dedication and a lot of knowledge to make a correct pairing.



I agree 100%

I think that people who are knowledgeable in proper pairings should be fixing the lines so they're pure and healthy.

We have so many byb's that are breeding and no matter how much we try, it's going to be impossible to stop them.

But why should we continue to add to the problem. Shouldn't we be still trying to purify the lines and make them healthy?

At least then we would have some well documented lines that are healthy and through this we will gain more knowledge on glider genetics, diseases, etc

Top
#849058 - 10/06/09 08:58 PM Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: ]
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: GoGoGliders


This is why you "breed-out" the lines......the thought is that since the leu gene is recessive, there MIGHT be other genetic deficiencies that are carried on that recessive gene. In your example above, the liver problem. However, because you have breed it to a gray, the gray's DNA will "fill in the hole" of the defect causing the liver problem, thereby not allowing the liver disease to manifest. The DNA of the gray (without the recessive component) will patch the defect on the recessive component. If you breed recessive to recessive, there is a significantly decreased possibility that those genetic "holes" are filled by intact DNA and thus an increased chance of a genetic defect being expressed.

That is just my two cents....





I don't know if i necessarly agree with you which is ok :o)


One site I was reading made a great point

( stated above )

All too often when we out cross to get rid of a problem and it just hides the recessives enabling the negative trait to show up later in the line (and in other lines as the animals are outcrossed more).


I think it would be better if we did not outcross because say a leu glider was only known to carry 1 genetic problem (in this case we'll use the same as above, liver problems)

Now we're outcrossing the leu glider with other gliders who may in-fact carry other genetic problems thus we're muddying up the lines with a variety of problems instead of one.

If the leu glider only carries that one defect, liver problems, we can work with the line to get rid of that defect by line breeding/inbreeding.

Here is another quote from the article (changed slightly)

Inbreeding is used a lot in the breeding of many species. It can be used either to set a positive trait or identify a potentially negative trait depending upon the choices made.


I think we need to first find out the genetic problems in the lines, and then eliminate them. I think outcrossing is the wrong way of doing this.

All of this of course is IMO :-)

Top
#849083 - 10/06/09 09:54 PM Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: GliderFun]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
As far as I know there are no genetic problems in the Leu gene pool at this time.

However, breeders are breeding other varriations into the Leu lineages for two reasone. 1) to offer the potential buyer more than one varriation if the recessive color does not prove out to be a leucistic. 2)producing a colored het other than a Gray Het so it is more marketable.

Sad but true.
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

Top
#849084 - 10/06/09 10:00 PM Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: GliderFun]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
As far as I know... there are no Liver Problems in the Leucistic Varriation itself.
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

Top
#849093 - 10/06/09 10:17 PM Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: Judie]
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
the liver problems were just an example of some problem that can exist, not that it does in leu gliders.

We have no proof of any genetic problems in the gene pool right now but yet, leu to leu is still frowned upon.

That doesn't make sense.


I think, and it may be wrong, we should test breed our leu lines (mother to son, daughter to father) as well as every other line and NOT sell these babies.

These babies have to remain with the breeder forever. test breeding animals with similar genetics like that will double up on the recessive traits thus telling you if they carry any particular genetic problems.

Once the babies die, they have to be tested to see if there were any abnormalities. This will give us some insight into the gene pool of each of our lines.

We are sort of trying this now but not like we should be IMO

I know this type of breeding has happened in the past but not enough (in my opinion) to say that there are no genetic problems that leu's have.

If this is done with each leu line and after several breedings and several years of studying, we can then say the line is pure and healthy.

This should happen with each line to make sure each line does not carry anything that is hidden. Doubling up on recessive traits will bring forth hidden defects.

It's not an easy task and it will take a long time and a lot of work, but in the long run, it will benefit the gliders and community.

Only then, can we begin to outcross with other lines, because then, we will know each line is pure and the healthiest it can be.


We also have to beware of the inbreeding tolerance. Some animals have a high inbreeding tolerance some lower. Once that threshold is reached you start to have problems like sterility (like the mosaic lines)

But I think we totally screwed up by out crossing the already unproven lines with even more unproven lines. We got "lucky" and haven't wound up with severe issues but there may be problems we aren't seeing.

Top
#849219 - 10/07/09 10:58 AM Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: GliderFun]
lovely1inred
Unregistered


GliderFun I think what you are suggesting may be sound from a scientific standpoint in determining exact genetics, however, I don't think that it is going to be practical or even palatable to most glider owners.

Gliders, if cared for properly, are going to live a long time. A genetics study like the one you suggest is going to take what, another 15-20 years? That is assuming the offspring die of natural causes. If there is a problem in one of the lines, then that's purposefully creating an animal that is going to either die early and probably in pain, probably have ridiculous vet expenses, etc. What breeder can afford that?

And well...do we as a glider community really want to treat our animals like lab rats? Even the breeding stock that are not technically pets? I consider myself to be open-minded but inbreeding a pair purposely, for "the good of the glider" does not seem to be, to me, any good at all for those two gliders. Would it be for the greater good? Maybe, maybe not, only the results would tell us if the ends justified the means. We call them our babies and furkids, I just don't see too many people agreeing with an experiment of this nature.

Top
#849233 - 10/07/09 11:27 AM Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: ]
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
I understand what you mean. These are peoples pets. In many other types of pets, this has already been done so that we can have healthier pets now. With sugar gliders, it seems as if we skipped this step.

I understand that people may not agree, and understand that these are their babies, but personally, i think that isolating poor genetics and getting rid of them will save future owners money and heart ache in the future.

What happens if, from out crossing our leu lines, in 10 years ALL of the leu babies born have MULTIPLE genetic disorders, health problems, etc from introducing outside lines that have never been proven not to carry those genes? Same goes for the grays and white face, and mosaics.

They start to die younger and younger, have deformities, are sick from they day they're born because the proper precautions weren't made to ensure we weren't breeding poor genetics because the genetics were never proven out.

We took the time to inbreed until we got a color we desired and selectively bred to keep that color around. Why was that OK to do but selectively breeding/line breeding/etc for things that ACTUALLY MATTER, like health and genetics (other then color) are not for the good of the glider?

It's like we inbred to initially purify the lines and make them healthy, found a cool color, then focused on that because it would make us more money, not caring about any other genes the glider may be carrying and making up these rules like, "you can't breed leu to leu because of genetic problems" Well, if things were done correctly, there shouldn't really be that worry should there?

It's almost like, the breeders WERE trying to purify the lines and have healthy animals until they found different colors and then all they saw was dollar signs so they abandoned the genetic work they were doing and went into something more profitable... breeding the colors they found.



***Now I'm not picking on anyone in particular, nor do i know who the first breeders were or their intentions (i'm guessing it was to purify and make the lines healthier by line breeding based on a comment above), I'm making general statements and giving everyone food for thought. If you think about it, it actually makes sense***

Top
#849242 - 10/07/09 12:19 PM Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: GliderFun]
lovely1inred
Unregistered


I wasn't around for the founding lines and all that...but throwing this out there...what about all the mill gliders that have no lineages, but we know that a great deal of them HAVE to be inbred...are those surviving greys now healthier and/or sturdier than the colorbred brethren?

I too do not want to pick on anyone, again, food for thought.

Top
#849248 - 10/07/09 12:32 PM Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: ]
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
I think that mill breeders are inbreeding but not in the right way. They're doing in indiscriminately not caring about their results, just profits. PLUS they're selling inbred babies

It's not just inbreeding that needs to be done and it can't be done on a whim and without knowledge of what you hope to acomplish.

Anyone can inbreed but it takes someone who knows what they're doing to inbreed/line breed to better a line.

People doing it correctly figure out what genes are present, what genes that should be kept and what genes should be eliminated.

They keep lineages on the babies/parents because that is very important.
They use inbreeding as a tool to express undesirable traits/genes that may be hiding because you're getting double recessives.

The way I think it's done is:

Once they express the undesirables though inbreeding they can then use selective breeding to get rid of these undesirable genes and purify a line.

Once a line is pure they line breed to maintain the line and make sure they do not re-introduce bad genetics into their pure line.


If we did that with all of the lines today, then we can safely start to cross lines but not until they're Truly pure!


The mill breeders are just inbreeding and selling offspring of inbreeding. That's terrible and will ruin lines even more because they're getting the genetic defects to show and then selling the babies with these genetic defects to other people who may then breed to other gliders, thus spreading the genetic problems. They're skipping the purification step.

kinda confusing :-)

Top
#849269 - 10/07/09 01:20 PM Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: GliderFun]
Gucciburger
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: GliderFun
I think that mill breeders are inbreeding but not in the right way. They're doing in indiscriminately not caring about their results, just profits. PLUS they're selling inbred babies

It's not just inbreeding that needs to be done and it can't be done on a whim and without knowledge of what you hope to acomplish.

Anyone can inbreed but it takes someone who knows what they're doing to inbreed/line breed to better a line.

People doing it correctly figure out what genes are present, what genes that should be kept and what genes should be eliminated.

They keep lineages on the babies/parents because that is very important.
They use inbreeding as a tool to express undesirable traits/genes that may be hiding because you're getting double recessives.

The way I think it's done is:

Once they express the undesirables though inbreeding they can then use selective breeding to get rid of these undesirable genes and purify a line.

Once a line is pure they line breed to maintain the line and make sure they do not re-introduce bad genetics into their pure line.


If we did that with all of the lines today, then we can safely start to cross lines but not until they're Truly pure!


The mill breeders are just inbreeding and selling offspring of inbreeding. That's terrible and will ruin lines even more because they're getting the genetic defects to show and then selling the babies with these genetic defects to other people who may then breed to other gliders, thus spreading the genetic problems. They're skipping the purification step.

kinda confusing :-)



GliderFun: I completely understand what you are trying to get at and I pretty much agree with you, it seems we did skip over a step in the genetics process and went straight for the money making area of it! (Granted I am sure there are others that are helping the lines in this way, but are secretive about it because inbreeding is such a sin in the Glider community and those few would be looked down on for their way of doing thing!) I do believe if the inbreeding if done the right way (Kept track of, Babies not sold and for GENETIC research on these Color Creations) Should be considered helping to purify the lines down the road and isolate the bad genes and remove them by line breeding, inbreeding and other methods I may not have named. BUT ONLY IF DONE IN A CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT, WHERE ALL RESEARCH AND ANIMALS CAN BE KEPT TRACK OF.

Top
#849278 - 10/07/09 01:43 PM Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: ]
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
OK OK Ok ok....

The reason inbreeding and line breeding are not quite as acceptable here as they are in rat breeding is because the available genetic diversity of the two animals is vastly different. Rats can be line bred for 9 generations before problems begin to arise. It's estimated that sugar gliders only have 3 generations of wiggle room because of the small population introduced to the US for us to work with. While it may be acceptable to breed rats and mice and cull the ones that have genetic defects, it's not considered ethical to do with sugar gliders...much like it would be considered unethical to do this with children. When you end up with a joey that is in constant pain due to a genetic defect that was inbred to the surface, you can't just chuck it in the snake cage to get rid of it.

If there was ever anyone against inbreeding it was ME. Trust me, I've seen inbreeding create joeys that hurt just to live. The local sugar glider market encourages a lot of inbreeding for profit...I don't care what your goal is, sugar gliders should be bred with more care than what you were doing with mice in a lab. The sterility in mosaics, again, is a good example of what problems can arise from this...you cannot "cull" the "breeding stock" in your inbred line. It doesn't work that way with gliders. The mosaic line took 4 or 5 generations of outbreeding to get rid of the sterility that came from inbreeding.

Now...that said, I am not suggesting that we inbreed or line breed leu to leu. Not at all, quite the opposite. What I am asking for is why we cannot breed two virtually UNRELATED leus together. Is it because people are afraid the joeys will come out missing parts? If that's it, say so. The fact is there doesn't seem to be ANY solid EVIDENCE that this fear is justified.

I'd like to know why leucism was picked for this rumor...why not mosaic? Mosaic is so similar to dapple or mearle in chis and doxies that if ever there was a color I didn't want to see bred together it was two mosaics. And yet, there are mosaic pairings that seem to be totally fine. It still comes down to the fact that the *fear* to breed two leucistics is irrelevant without some solid EVIDENCE as to why this is a taboo. I don't need theories and excuses. Nor am I trying to start a new wave of newbies breeding leu to leu; I honestly believe the leu to leu breeding should be done by the more experienced breeders first, so the pairings can be carefully decided by people that KNOW these lines by heart, and so they know what to look for in offspring. I am simply trying to find the TRUTH in this RUMOR, which none has surfaced yet.
_________________________
Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

Top
#849293 - 10/07/09 02:01 PM Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: kitsune]
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
I actually read that the safe inbreeding quotient is the 20th generation in rats. I could be wrong.

Do you have some proof that the safe inbreeding quotient for sugar gliders is only 3 generations?

And I understand what your question is and I agree with you.

I don't think we have ANY 100% solid evidence that breeding Leu to Leu causes anything to be concerned about.

What I was getting at, was that the only reason we would fear leu to leu is that we don't know what genes are linked to the white coat of the Leus. We also know piratically nothing about genetics of sugar gliders because no one has done the research.

The only things we know are, there are several different colors and they're passed through certain kinds of breeding.


To answer your question:

There has not been any evidence, to my knowledge, that would support the claim that breeding Leu to Leu would cause any negative effect if you had bred 2 leus from 5+ generations apart.


More food for though and no one jump down my throat, again, im not picking on anyone.

Could it be that it's frowned upon to breed 2 Leus that are 5+ generations apart (but not 2 grays, mosaics, white faces that are 5+ generations apart) BECAUSE if people start to do that, the price of Leucistic gliders would fall causing breeders to not make as much money on their babies.

The prices have already fallen but if people breed leu to leu the price of leus will fall drastically.

What if people start to breed creamino to creamino that are both 5+ generations apart. Prices would not be 4000.00 a baby anymore and will also fall drastically.

Just something else to throw out there.


Edited by GliderFun (10/07/09 02:03 PM)

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >




Moderator:  Feather, KarenE, Ladymagyver, Philwojo 
Sugar Glider Help Page



Please click above to see how you can help!!

Moon
CURRENT MOON
Who's Online
0 registered (), 19 Guests and 22 Spiders online.
Key: Owner, Admin, Mod
Newest Members
Sal305, Cherylr1995, SarasotaSugs, Lisa11, JessicaSound
6450 Registered Users
Forum Stats
23 posts in the last 24hrs
6450 Members
134 Forums
8995 Topics
148710 Posts

Max Online: 478 @ 07/15/07 01:24 AM
Last 10 New Topics
BML Help
by Alan
04:59 PM
Grieving sugar glider
by Firefly
01:04 PM
Self Mutilating
by Anonymous
11:26 AM
Injured Tail W/No Vet Instru/Help!
by
03:57 AM
Recipe for glider yogi's please!
by Claralice
12/12/17 10:03 PM
My Caramel Gliders anything I need to know about neutering?
by Claralice
12/12/17 04:14 PM
Three weeks in, first timer, questions .
by Lisa11
12/12/17 04:42 AM
RIP Spencer
by Cora
12/11/17 04:58 PM
New odor issue??
by AlyCatz
12/08/17 05:37 PM
Lighter Gliders??
by AlyCatz
12/08/17 05:25 PM
(Views)Popular Topics
I just found a lump on Timmy's chest--HELP! 20205028
Spencer needs your prayers/good thoughts 12468405
TEXAS 658803
Pitbull biter needs advice/help 607539
OHIO 519546
Member Titles 460958
MISSOURI 394560
HOLY CRACKERS AMERICAN HPW's 372133
OKLAHOMA 354280
URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered 352779
Supported Browser
This site was tested and is best viewed in Google Chrome & Mozilla FireFox



Firefox 3

Download your copy today!!!


GliderCENTRAL
©1998-2017