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#849759 - 10/08/09 04:37 PM Glider Genetics and Thoughts- (novel!)
SugaWhit Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 734
Loc: Jupiter, Florida
Not sure how else to word that-

I am going to be doing a whole bunch of copy and pasting from the other thread, as what I am trying to explain is being perfectly mangled by misunderstandings- so please bear with me-

My original post, and point, was to say that the idea of inbreeding the lines to the point of obvious defects was not a truly nes idea or practice.
Having experience in labs, I can tell you that rats and mice are very different then gliders in many many ways.

Here's my original post-

"I can honestly see where GliderFun is coming from, my answer to this problem is not to breed out, but to test.
I really think that the best way, without harming or breeding any more gliders, to figure out what we have both color and health wise is to establish a genetic "norm" (say standard healthy grey glider) and go from there.

(What I am saying here, is Not that we can establish a genome test, but instead know what true normal is, and trace back. This would only be possible if many many people joined together and registered their gliders DNA, so we Could trace back to see what animals crop up again and again with problems.

In horses, we DNA every single animal when we register it. That way we can be sure that the sire is the sire, etc. Also, when problems show up, we can know exactly Who the parents were and trace back.

Impressive and HYPP is a classic example of a very famous and popular sire who had hundreds of foals, who all won a bunch, and then They had foals, etc etc.
In the end, the diesase proved traceable directly To this One horse, and we now test every horse from that line.
It's prevented hundredes of deaths and awful lives for horses. Of course there are some that still do breed these horses as the extra muscle associated with the genetic fault make for 1st place in the halter ring.

We now have a test for HYPP, but in the beginning, just knowing the common sire was enough.)


_______________________________________________________
Leu, Mosaic, (a pattern I mentally think of as tobiano/overo as I am a horse person) and creamino (again, in my head, buckskin. Hilarious no?)

We already do necropsies, the extra step of sending off dna material to be examined isn't far fetched. We do it in horses all the time.
Liver, eye, and kidney issues, I don't know if we could ever isolate to a strong degree without some very obvious gene abnormality, and a bunch more money.

I cannot strees the above enough. My point in saying what I have and did was Not to have such hubris to pretend that we will be able to isolate the genetic markers of bad news, but instead to know who and where the lines come from, and who's parent is Really each parent. This will enable us to predict bad news, as we could trace back to certian parents. (See the above example, Impressive.)

But color and linkage of genes via expression of them I think is very viable, and would give you a much better chance of knowing Far more then what inbreeding would do.
Agin, I feel that it's not a far fetched idea, color is a much easier allele to isolate and identify. Hence why we can do so much color testing in birds and in horses.

I have a Leu paired with a 100% het. As they are well bred out, I personally have no problem with it. I can however, concede that further out crossing are needed far more then bringing the lines in, and am currently working to that end on my Creamino/het pairs future crossings.

I would much rather it be like in horses, and we can track the animals parentage not by what the breeder thinks, or remembers, but by fact. Same with color-
I want to see a place where we can genetically test for who's parent is who's, and what glider carries which gene, expressed or not, as coming from a medical background, things like the 50% het I have in my siggy kinda make my head hurt.
The glider either Has or doesn't have the gene, the "%" were put in place to help make money and track the lines.

Everyone got all excited about this one. You can't tell me that it honestly makes More sense to just do an accurate, but still only a chance, percentage- makes More sense then trying for a genetic test and be Sure.

I have talked to lots of breeders on here, and many will concede that selling hets, at what ever percentage under a 100% does play out for more money for them, but that is only to protect them as well.

I am note disagreeing with this practice, however, wouldn't it be nice to know exactly what you are getting? Wouldn't it be nice to know that the parent of that glider was really a Creamino or a Leu? I don't doubt one litte bit that my little boy is a 100% het, but I bought from someone I trusted. Same with my "50%"- I do feel that her lines are true, but would I rather know that she was a in fact a het via testing and have paid more? You bet!


My problem is no one is interested in Really doing all the homework, as the time/money/gliders needed is magnicifient.
This point was proved endlessly in the other thread, but it's just silly. Just becuase we always Have done something one way, doesn't mean that that is the way is Should be done, or Could be done.
There are better ways out there to do things- We just need to band together as a community and put the time in.
If the miniature horse people can figure it out, we sure as heck can.

And as we don't Have a real central reg like the horse folks do, there isn't a group of people floating around with money and time and the animals best interest in mind to go to a college or a development lab and get the ball rolling. That would be a huge boon to all glider folks!

/end rant."

To go further-
Dancing wrote-
"Ok, providing I could find a lab/vet willing to check the dna on a glider to tell if it carries the leu gene, how many are willing to PAY the cost for that testing in addition to the cost of the glider?
(Whitney in here, Me for one, and many others I am sure!)
I'm betting not many. Most would rather have the percents and make their decisions based on chance.
(This is doing things the way we always have mind set that blocks any ideas of progress, or what Could be!)

I know that before, a low percent leu het was only margianally more than a grey.

I remember...
Leus were $2000-2200
100% hets were $1500
66% hets were $1000
50% hets were about $500-700
25% hets were about $300
and lower than that were MAYBE $50 more than the cost of a grey IF charged any extra at all.

And out of those, MANY of the "12% hets" proved out.

(Oh and about this time, the first Creamino was put up for sale at the grand cost of $10,000!)"


Else where in the thread-
Gliderplayroom wrote-
"You're basically talking about putting a 8-10 week old joey under anesthetic, dangerous in itself, and drawing blood, just so you can know if you're buying a het or not. IMO? THAT is barbaric. Not to mention the many, many gliders that would have to be subjected to extensive testing to have a basis to compare to begin with."

-No, no I am Not talking about putting a joey 'under', and I am not sure why this thought was put together to be honest.

The idea is not to put them under, but to obtain a blood or hair sample with DNA, we may even be able to swab gliders, but I'd have to do some homework on that idea.
As far as "just to know if you are getting a het"

No, not at all, That is just One of the nice things avaliable about testing and knowing the DNA present. Knowing who the gliders parents are for sure, and therefore any health risks/inbreeding, and Then color would be my personal order of go. The color will just be the easiest to identify, as I mentioned earlier.

Valkiremom wrote- (in response to Gliderfun)
"I'm unaware of a glider genome project. In fact, they haven't clearly linked genes to the diseases and conditions you mentioned in humans - for which there has been an active genome project for decades. We don't even understand all the color genetics for gliders, and now you want us to prevent obesity and liver failure?

May I gently suggest you start your own thread? When you say - Color should be a secondary thing - that could be right. However, THIS thread is about Leu to Leu breeding. So, for the purpose of this discussion, Color is Primary, not secondary
."

Point taken as far as the new thread, thank you, to continue with your post, there Is no such thing, nor was it mentioned.

In fact if you read above, I clearly stated that the idea of being able to identify gene markers for said diseases would be pretty impossible unless the defects manifested themselves in a very obvious manner. (LWO is a great example of that btw.)

The fact that we don't understand all the glider color genetics is what is driving me to sit here and try and go through all this. We should know all this and test gliders.

She went further on to say -
"Could I please just restate that the genetics garbage is NOT part of the original topic?

The direction the thread has taken ... genetics, inbreeding, a glider genome project, etc ... can all be discussed on some other thread. (for the record, I don't know why someone thinks identifying specific genes is even possible!)
*Whitney in again, it's been proven, we can test for many many genetic markers, Downs is one in people that most are familar with, that is a really simple genetic.*

THIS thread is about breeding Leu to Leu. I believe Beth's original question was something along the lines of... have the LEU lines been bred out far enough so that we can now begin breeding leu to leu safely?

Anyone care to comment on that?

I agree that more needs to be said about any truth to the Leu to Leu cross equaling trouble. I felt that tied in nicely with the idea of genetic testing as if there Were any issues, you would be able to see them right off the bat, in easy to read lines.
(Well easy with the training- which is pretty simple honestly!)

Sooooo discuss-
_________________________
Mom to (heaven help me!) Three pairs of wonderful Glider kids-
Nero :rtmo:
Cupid a :cream: & Ceres :rtmo: +1 boy oop
Warbuck :plat: & Lysia :rtmo: & Clarissa with Twins oop each!
http://palmbeachgliders.webs.com/

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#849868 - 10/08/09 08:52 PM Re: Glider Genetics and Thoughts- (novel!) [Re: SugaWhit]
hwh4ev Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 2833
Loc: roseville, mi
if i did take in any of my babies to the vets. office and
got some dna from their hair and some blood from nail
clippings what would they be able to tell me.

i am a little lost with genetics as you can see.

regards,
nancy in detroit
_________________________
regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)

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#849876 - 10/08/09 09:18 PM Re: Glider Genetics and Thoughts- (novel!) [Re: hwh4ev]
SugaWhit Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 734
Loc: Jupiter, Florida
At this point, nothing, as there is no base line as a norm.

To be able to tell you anything, you would have to establish a base line.
This acts as a constant when you look and and digest data from either DNA samples.

To break it down more simply-

A base line is simply the starting point.
It is the spot where it is a clean slate.

Things like lineage, color, etc would all be different markers On the slate. Much like a check mark depending on what genetic information you are looking for.

It could be as simple as checking to see if the parents are the same as you believe. (A simple matter of matching the parents to the joeys.)
Or more complicated like deteting the presence of certain allels- like a the gene indicated for the recessive Leu, or Creamino or Albino. Or for an expressed gene that could be hidden on a Leu, such as Mosaic, or WFB.

Without the ground work though, and all the work that goes into figuring out what markers indicate what- and having a 'norm'- all the DNA would tell you is that you have a sugar glider.
_________________________
Mom to (heaven help me!) Three pairs of wonderful Glider kids-
Nero :rtmo:
Cupid a :cream: & Ceres :rtmo: +1 boy oop
Warbuck :plat: & Lysia :rtmo: & Clarissa with Twins oop each!
http://palmbeachgliders.webs.com/

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#849881 - 10/08/09 09:26 PM Re: Glider Genetics and Thoughts- (novel!) [Re: hwh4ev]
EzzieM
Unregistered


hwh4ev:(nancy) I think that's the point. Right now, they couldn't really tell us much at all because there hasn't been any established method of tracking DNA and associated information regarding gliders (to my knowledge-yet)



I know that I'd pay the extra money to find out; once a method and the information was actually available. Once the information is there, I assume the price wouldn't even be as big of an issue because it would be expected. (as the original poster stated is done with horses to find their actual sires.)

The percentages with lineage are nice, but a piece of paper SAYING that a glider is "100% Het" is still JUST a paper stating something that can only be "proven" by the breeder's word. (breeders: don't take that as an insult, I am just saying that for example: it's POSSIBLE that a less than trustworthy breeder with a 100%/100% pair and a 33%/50% pair could take a joey from the lower percentage pair and sell it claiming that it's a joey from the higher percentage pair. There is no way to prove that this isn't what they're doing.)

I don't KNOW if the leu lines have been bred out enough to make a leu/leu pairing ok... No clue whatsoever. But it would be really nice to know.

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#849882 - 10/08/09 09:27 PM Re: Glider Genetics and Thoughts- (novel!) [Re: SugaWhit]
lovely1inred
Unregistered


Soooooo....ok I think I've got a grasp on what you are saying. I have to agree that having a baseline to test against would be GREAT to have, not just for breeders, but veterinarians to consult. What I don't know is the procedure for getting that ball rolling. Which stock get picked to be the baseline and all that. I like this topic though and am interested to see where it goes.

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#849887 - 10/08/09 09:36 PM Re: Glider Genetics and Thoughts- (novel!) [Re: ]
EzzieM
Unregistered


(Keep in mind that I know nothing about genetic testing when I say this;) I think it would probably be easier to start with something like a Leu line simply because there would be fewer variables and a smaller group to start with. A case study fails with too many variables... The standard grays would be a such a HUGE undertaking simply due to numbers! Numbers being only ONE of the obstacles to overcome.(Especially since no one even really started doing lineages until a few years ago) I do not envy the work that people are going to have to do to get this going...


Edited by EzzieM (10/08/09 09:38 PM)

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#849890 - 10/08/09 09:42 PM Re: Glider Genetics and Thoughts- (novel!) [Re: ]
SugaWhit Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 734
Loc: Jupiter, Florida
As far as a base line, it would need to have the support of the larger breeders.
There is no one else out there who has as many, and for that many founding gliders out there.
There just isn't a ton of regular grey lines around that are tracked. That is the single biggest impeadment to the entire thing.

Also, as gliders are tested and their DNA is added and held for future refrence, I have a feeling that just like the horses, we are going to find some discrepencies in parantage.

This may lead to hurt feelings, and many breeders will not wish to put themselves out there despite the benifit to gliders as a whole.

However, from the conversations I have had with the folks that did the AMHA miniature DNA reg-

They just kept catalouging and accumliating until they could refer back and start seeing where 'normal' was, along with muddling though bloodlines and who is really who's daddy. This would be the same for us, and as far as how to implement it-
My idea is to make it into a progressive college biotech adminstration exercise.

That would do much of the ground work for free, and as the students would have to assimilate the data, it would create on the job experience for them, and give us much needed norms.

Again, this is my dream for this community, but can anyone tell me why it wouldn't be a good idea or not wanted?

Is there anyone who wouldn't feel better about perhaps paying a bit more to Know your glider is from the parents you think, and the color het it is supposed to be.

Show me some holes in my thoughts, I am by no means all knowing- and I am looking forward to hearing from people who have been into gliders for a long time.
_________________________
Mom to (heaven help me!) Three pairs of wonderful Glider kids-
Nero :rtmo:
Cupid a :cream: & Ceres :rtmo: +1 boy oop
Warbuck :plat: & Lysia :rtmo: & Clarissa with Twins oop each!
http://palmbeachgliders.webs.com/

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#849891 - 10/08/09 09:44 PM Re: Glider Genetics and Thoughts- (novel!) [Re: SugaWhit]
SugaWhit Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 734
Loc: Jupiter, Florida
And yes, glaring awful spelling errors abound.
My apologies, but I have no spell check on my phone, have horrific spelling as a norm and am currently enjoying glider playtime!
_________________________
Mom to (heaven help me!) Three pairs of wonderful Glider kids-
Nero :rtmo:
Cupid a :cream: & Ceres :rtmo: +1 boy oop
Warbuck :plat: & Lysia :rtmo: & Clarissa with Twins oop each!
http://palmbeachgliders.webs.com/

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#849904 - 10/08/09 10:08 PM Re: Glider Genetics and Thoughts- (novel!) [Re: SugaWhit]
EzzieM
Unregistered


I don't see any 'holes in your thoughts' about this at all, then again, I've shared your opinion about it being a good idea from the beginning, so I may be a little biased! LOL.

I think it certainly will lead to finding discrepancies, whether intentionally made or not: and I agree that it's going to lead to some drama somewhere...

BUT, I can't think of a single reason NOT to do it that would outweigh the pros.

I can track all of MY gliders back several generations, but that's because I've HAD them for most of that time. This is probably the only time I've ever wished I was a breeder so that I could help! (I have breeding pairs, but I don't sell them. On occasion I'll send a pair to a new home, but I don't make any profit out of it. The new home pays for the neuter and the wellness. Even then that's only so that I KNOW it's been done.)

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#849907 - 10/08/09 10:10 PM Re: Glider Genetics and Thoughts- (novel!) [Re: ]
MatchMakerMagic Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 2785
Loc: Port Saint Lucie, FL
Whitney, what do you think cost wise would this DNA testing be... Ya know, ballpark?
_________________________
Kinue

ISTJ
When it rains, it pours...

www.serenitysugargliders.homestead.com

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#849918 - 10/08/09 10:31 PM Re: Glider Genetics and Thoughts- (novel!) [Re: MatchMakerMagic]
SugaWhit Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 734
Loc: Jupiter, Florida
Well, that's what I can't pin down. As I haven't walked the talk to a college with said equipment yet, it's all speculation.
I will be calling the office at AMHA, and see if they would be willing to share their methods to the start up of the data base at least.

I keep hoping some folks from that new gilder reg will wander in here-
that would be an ideal setting-
The biggest problem is going to be getting a place to store data, and the time with techs to start id'ing and loading it.

Also the method of collection- I need to get my hands on the instrument/method they use to do birds- and see if it would even be suitable for a glider-

I think that will be our closest cousin as far as handeling and funding methods, as bird folks are a small specialized world like the gliders are- and are subjuct to color (and even sex!) questions as well.

So that was really a long winded no clue- smile
_________________________
Mom to (heaven help me!) Three pairs of wonderful Glider kids-
Nero :rtmo:
Cupid a :cream: & Ceres :rtmo: +1 boy oop
Warbuck :plat: & Lysia :rtmo: & Clarissa with Twins oop each!
http://palmbeachgliders.webs.com/

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#849922 - 10/08/09 10:36 PM Re: Glider Genetics and Thoughts- (novel!) [Re: ]
SugaWhit Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 734
Loc: Jupiter, Florida
Thank you for your support and thoughts!!
I'm looking for the folks that were not so keen on it to speak up as well-
some voiced opposition to this thinking in the Leu x Leu thread-
I'd like to hear what they think more expressed and with focus on it versus the struggle of off topic quick bites here and there- smile


Originally Posted By: EzzieM
I don't see any 'holes in your thoughts' about this at all, then again, I've shared your opinion about it being a good idea from the beginning, so I may be a little biased! LOL.

I think it certainly will lead to finding discrepancies, whether intentionally made or not: and I agree that it's going to lead to some drama somewhere...

BUT, I can't think of a single reason NOT to do it that would outweigh the pros.

I can track all of MY gliders back several generations, but that's because I've HAD them for most of that time. This is probably the only time I've ever wished I was a breeder so that I could help! (I have breeding pairs, but I don't sell them. On occasion I'll send a pair to a new home, but I don't make any profit out of it. The new home pays for the neuter and the wellness. Even then that's only so that I KNOW it's been done.)

_________________________
Mom to (heaven help me!) Three pairs of wonderful Glider kids-
Nero :rtmo:
Cupid a :cream: & Ceres :rtmo: +1 boy oop
Warbuck :plat: & Lysia :rtmo: & Clarissa with Twins oop each!
http://palmbeachgliders.webs.com/

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#849930 - 10/08/09 10:51 PM Re: Glider Genetics and Thoughts- (novel!) [Re: SugaWhit]
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
When i was throwing the inbreeding/line breeding thing out there, it was just a food for thought type of thing based on research done on rats. I do know rats are very different from gliders though so not everything could be the same.

I am SOO glad you brought up the DNA testing because that would be wonderful.

I don't know what it would cost to have DNA tests done but I do know, i was quoted like $400.00 (i'll post the exact amount if I can find my reciept) to do bloodwork on 1 glider to check for anything bad lingering when she had a nipped tail.

I think it will all depend on the place you go and who you talk to.

Maybe a college student who is studying genetics will need something for their thesis project and will be willing to take this on?

Any good genetic colleges in peoples areas?

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#849939 - 10/08/09 11:02 PM Re: Glider Genetics and Thoughts- (novel!) [Re: GliderFun]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Ok, I don't think it would be bad at all. I just think the "glider world" isn't ready for it. Shoot, you can't even get all gliders on one data base as it is.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#849940 - 10/08/09 11:04 PM Re: Glider Genetics and Thoughts- (novel!) [Re: SugaWhit]
EzzieM
Unregistered


mine aren't on any databases at all!

i've looked a little into them.


Edited by EzzieM (10/08/09 11:06 PM)

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#849948 - 10/08/09 11:29 PM Re: Glider Genetics and Thoughts- (novel!) [Re: ]
oakley Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 2305
Loc: Florida, USA
Well, being the one behind the most recent push for a registry... I have to say that it would be tough, but I'd love to see something like this come to fruition.

All gliders on one database? That's my dream, and it's taking A LOT of effort on everyone's part to even start getting there.

It looks like you've got a good argument going, and genetics are fascinating as well as useful.

I'd call around to colleges.... UF has a HUGE horse clinic... in fact, as you probably know, the Florida horse folk use them as the go-to help for ANY health/genetic issue or question.
_________________________
Meghan

~__/>
{{ }}


Suggies: Basil, Mausi, Bagheera/Baloo, & the Trio
Dogs : Pretzel/Snickers
Horse: Nugget
RIP: Gato, Pepito, Pepper, and Mowgli gangel


Oakley's Glider Site

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#850078 - 10/09/09 10:04 AM Re: Glider Genetics and Thoughts- (novel!) [Re: oakley]
SugaWhit Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 734
Loc: Jupiter, Florida
Yes Meghan- I agree, with what you And Dancing pointed out-
The kick is, we need to do something, and even though gliders arentba highdollar animal like horses, they are none the less in need of attention.

I had already spoken in length to one of the larger breeders, who was just as excited as I am by what could be done.
Teaming up with Meghans central place would be key though, as I don't have a room full of computues to keep all of the information-

As far as everyones involvement- Well in the horses we made it a must.
At least all the original animals, offspring will need to be the new owners responsibility so the breeders aren't carrying all the burden-
_________________________
Mom to (heaven help me!) Three pairs of wonderful Glider kids-
Nero :rtmo:
Cupid a :cream: & Ceres :rtmo: +1 boy oop
Warbuck :plat: & Lysia :rtmo: & Clarissa with Twins oop each!
http://palmbeachgliders.webs.com/

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#850093 - 10/09/09 11:03 AM Re: Glider Genetics and Thoughts- (novel!) [Re: SugaWhit]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
We are still trying to get BLOOD work that indicates a baseline standard.

I don't see DNA being available for quite some time!
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#850096 - 10/09/09 11:08 AM Re: Glider Genetics and Thoughts- (novel!) [Re: SugaWhit]
Avri
Unregistered


Doesn't UF have the only vet school around here - Maybe someone (glider owner) in Gainesville could make some inquiries - there's got to be some masters or PhD student around there looking for an interesting thesis subject.

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#850104 - 10/09/09 11:23 AM Re: Glider Genetics and Thoughts- (novel!) [Re: ]
lovely1inred
Unregistered


If this could really get off the ground and it's simply sending in a sample to be tested and then registered - I mean it doesn't get easier than that and it doesn't have to be blood, they test criminals with a mouth swab and it's permissible in court. I don't see why we couldn't do that with our gliders, either saliva or nail clipping, tuft of fur, whatever. PLUS have the added benefit, if enough grey owners join in, maybe even prove without a doubt inbreeding in mills???? I know my pair have no lineage and both probably came out of a mill, somewhere or other, there's just no way to track it. If they could be linked to other gliders in a more concentrated area that could be a real bonus!

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#850308 - 10/09/09 07:35 PM Re: Glider Genetics and Thoughts- (novel!) [Re: ValkyrieMome]
SugaWhit Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 734
Loc: Jupiter, Florida
Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
We are still trying to get BLOOD work that indicates a baseline standard.

I don't see DNA being available for quite some time!


Really? I have never heard that vets struggle to know the norms. Would you point me to these vets and discussions about this?
I would be interested to get That settled first of course, but you are the first glider person to tell me this.

As far as the rest, I would need to get the infastructer set up first, but yes it's simple.
Honestly you don't need a full vet school to do everything, the local colleges have biotech programs, which can run DNA and do everything needed. vet's need to come in with (apparently) a base line and figuring out best methods of collections.

What I don't want is for folks to just throw up their arms and say, "It's to hard/expensive/difficult/ sooo why bother."
That just winds my clock honestly, and it's why I started this thread.
_________________________
Mom to (heaven help me!) Three pairs of wonderful Glider kids-
Nero :rtmo:
Cupid a :cream: & Ceres :rtmo: +1 boy oop
Warbuck :plat: & Lysia :rtmo: & Clarissa with Twins oop each!
http://palmbeachgliders.webs.com/

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