Sugar Glider Community Calendar

Please click here to see larger view
Articles
More coming soon!!
Today's Birthdays
Sugga_Momma09
Featured Member
Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16757
Last 10 Posts
New odor issue??
by AlyCatz
Yesterday at 04:23 PM
Blindnedd in red eye gliders
by Srlb
Yesterday at 10:54 AM
Lighter Gliders??
by AlyCatz
12/09/17 10:14 PM
Bing, bing, bing.... It's
by Terry
12/09/17 07:13 PM
Happy Birthday Nejwig
by KarenE
12/08/17 09:15 AM
Round 3 the swelling starts
by Terry
12/08/17 07:45 AM
Another Prolapsed cloaca
by Terry
12/07/17 07:17 PM
Is a glider right for me?
by Terry
12/07/17 11:38 AM
Been Distracted...
by Stef333
12/07/17 08:13 AM
OM Gosh!!! Christmas Trees!
by Ladymagyver
12/06/17 06:21 PM
Google+

Facebook
Join Us On Facebook
Topic Options
#860654 - 11/01/09 07:36 PM Super WFBs
ErichB
Unregistered


NOTE: Please Read All of This Before Posting, I've cut it down in size to help.

First of all being a sixteen year old I do not nor am I claiming to have degree in genetics, but I do know what I am talking about from talking with breeders and from my genetic and biology courses in school, and from what I've learned from breeders on these forums.

White Face: Normally considered the "1st" white mutation in the grey allele making a fully dominate allele protein on the locus causing no heterozygous "hets" forms of WF, typically expressing a white face with a dark grey to light grey body and missing the white bars behind the head.

White Faced Blond: A slight variation in the phenotype WF's allele on the DNA's locus but genetically is still a WF just expressing a mutation in the melanin causing a cream-ish tone to the face. Typically expressing a white to cream white face, with a light grey body and missing the bars behind the ears.

The WF series continues from what I've read on these forums in other variations in the phenotypes as:
WFB "Sunkissed" WF "champagne" WF "buttercream" etc.. although there is a LOT of controversy on these variations as most breeders mistake common pouch staining for it.

So from what I've read about some of the "bigger" breeders are starting to think that WFB also has a heterozygous form. Which it cannot, the allele that is WFB on the DNA locus is a FULL locus protein and that means WFBs can only be homozygous. Which means it is a dominate gene and does not require both parent's to hold half of an allele protein to reproduce the pigmentation. Where this myth from my understanding has came from is when these breeders outcross for an example a Leucistic to a Classic Grey/leu het and produces a WFB. WELL the leucistic clearly also expresses a dominate WFB locus on a chromosome and ALSO has a full leucistic allele on the same chromosome, so the leucistic is in fact is a proven WFB leucistic.

Now on to a "Super WF".

Now the WT "Wild Type" not white tip, which is a grey glider is the most common coloring found in wild colonies of gliders. This is an heterozygous loci as is why you can have a leucistic and a WFB and produce grey offspring because the locus protein can be passed on in "halves" as the grey coloring can be passed on generations without offspring expressing the color, as they only carry half the protein and once bred with another glider who carries the full or other half of it produces grey gliders.
Now the reason why we have "generations" of WFB gliders is because we are trying to keep track of where the grey allele is being bred into a homozygous WFB glider, so the "higher" the generation the higher the chances are that your WFB doesn't carry that half of the grey loci.
So technically speaking if WFBs are bred out 8-12 generations without producing a grey colored glider then you have bred out that half of the protein allele and created a "Super" WFB but the second you breed a WFB with a grey or lower generation of WFB you add another half locus into the chromosomes of the WFB line you have. Which is why when you breed a "6th" generation WFB with a "1rst" you end up with a "2rd" generation because you have introduced the grey loci again into the offsping uping the chances of producing grey gliders. smile

Hope I've helped, and PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong anywhere in this.

~Erich

Top
#860721 - 11/01/09 09:59 PM Re: Super WFBs [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
NOT BAD at all for a 16 yr old!

The "super wf" is a term that I find interesting.

My pair, Gianna (2nd gen) and Marcell (2nd gen) produced nothing but wf offspring. From those wf offspring, each that has been in a breeding situation has only produced wf offspring as well as far as I know.

Jewel is one of their babies and is a 3rd gen. She is with a mosaic boy who is NOT a wf. They have had 4 joeys, two mosaic and two wf (1st gen). If she produces nothing but wf joeys, would that make me lucky or her a super wf?

Larriat (also a Gianna and Marcell baby and 3rd gen) is paired with Emma, a 4.25 gen. They have produced nothing but wf (4.5 gen) joeys.

I believe that everyone has figured out there is no "HET for WF". It does take atleast ONE parent to reproduce the wf coloring.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

Top
#860745 - 11/01/09 10:26 PM Re: Super WFBs [Re: Dancing]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
I have actually had a question about this for a long time and I'm sure I am missing something entirely, but why is WF generally considered a co-dominant gene? Why isn't is just simple dominant? Bear with me as I am not remotely technical.

Simple dominant (in my head at least roflmao) would explain why some gliders 'always' produce a WF and some gliders don't produce one every time even if both parents are WF. Technically if you have a WF/GG paired with a WF/GG you will only get WF/WF 1/4 of the time (and as we all know, this is just the mathematics and what actually happens could be more or less. But not all WF are bred, so how would you know. dunno This still holds true with the WF generations as the assumption is that a WF paired with a WF would mean the glider is more likely to carry two WF genes (if it was simple dominant) but even several generations down the row, that isn't necessarily how it would work out.

I know genetics is a lot more complicated than my over-simplification, in the same respect not everything is overly complex either.
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

Top
#860759 - 11/01/09 10:49 PM Re: Super WFBs [Re: ]
eden
Unregistered


Hey Erich, now you know we are friends so please don't take any offense when I say this but you need to slooooooow down. You are getting WAY ahead of yourself. You have been involved with gliders for 6-7 months and you are jumping into things like you have been in it for years. I didn't even breed my first Gliders until I had owned them for a year or even start posting on this forum really because I wanted to learn. I also had years of experience in the reptile industry learning about genetics but I gained that knowledge over the course of the last 5-6 years, not 5-6 months. You are trying to understand everything all at once and you need to realise that you cannot be an expert overnight, just have some patience. You will find you will learn so much more if you read what more experienced people have written and just slow yourself down a bit. You are getting so many Gliders in such a short span of time and jumping into topics like genetics without any real understanding of it's basics and you are going to end up missing out on the whole experience of it all. You should be enjoying your time with your suggies and you can't possibly do that while going 100 miles an hour.

You need to learn the basics of genetics before jumping into the more complex areas such as super dominance or sex-linked mutations etc. The reason I say that is because if you took the time to start with a solid foundation you would know that dominant mutations CAN have heterozygous forms. You obviously do not have a really confident understanding of certain terms like DNA Locus or complete/incomplete dominance and that is ok, you are still learning but you should not be making factual statements about things like you have in this post without that solid understanding first. Dominant mutations like WFB can carry one mutated allele or two, making them either heterozygous or homozygous, but there is no visual difference or "super form" between heterozygous and homozygous. A super WFB is simply a WFB that carries two mutated alleles and thus can only pass on a mutated WFB gene to its offspring but WFB CAN be both heterozygous and homozygous.

Also, you need to understand that different mutations are expressed on different chromosomes and different DNA loci or regions, so the locus that leucism is carried is different from the locus where WFB is carried. That means that an animal cannot have the standard or wild type gene bred out of it unless you selectively bred it out of EVERY locus on the DNA strand where it is carried. It also means your statement that Leucism and WFB being carried on the same chromosome is false.

Your idea of genes being passed on in halves is far too simplistic. The standard colouring and how it is passed on is far more complex than that. Standard Grey Gliders are not naturally heterozygous and just waiting for another half to come along. The standard or wild type colouring does not really follow simple mendelian inheritance patterns. The easiest way to explain it is to imagine that there are many many different DNA loci that contain pairs of alleles. Each pair is composed of two standard grey or wild type alleles. When there is a random mutation in one or more of those alleles or when the animal is bred with an animal that has an allelic mutation the result is certain alleles carrying only one or none of the standard grey alleles because they are replaced with mutated alleles, but that does not happen on EVERY allele. So basically certain alleles on certain loci will be mutated, causing a phenotypic or visual change but that animal would still carry many many other wild type grey alleles. It is almost the default gene if you want to think of it that way. The animal will always appear phenotypically wild type in the absence of mutated alleles, even after generations and generations of breeding mutated alleles. If the offspring of one generation do not inherit a dominant/co-dominant or homozygous recessive alleles (full pair) then it will express the standard alleles which the vast majority of it's alleles are composed of.

It is awesome that you want to learn this stuff and keep at it but please read read read and slow yourself down. Posting information about things like genetics can very easily confuse newer people so unless you are fluent in your explanations of it and have the correct information you should be very careful about posting. It is very easy for misinformation to get passed around so you want to make sure your opinions that you post or advice that you give is based in fact from either extensive and thorough research or years of experience. Your definitions in this post are made as statements and are incorrect.

If you keep at it you could be an awesome awesome breeder someday but take the time to enjoy the ride on the way there. Slow down and enjoy the Gliders you already have instead of making such elaborate plans for so many breeding projects and please please please spend LOTS more time learning before posting, especially when you are making factual statements about genetics. It took myself and anyone else fluent in genetics YEARS to get to where we are and got there by reading and asking questions before ever posting factual claims. Also, to be honest, you should be spending your time researching the ins and outs of breeding such as health issues and what to do with rejected joeys etc etc before jumping head first into genetics. It is more important to have a solid understanding of how to breed your gliders and keep them healthy when you are so very new to Gliders and breeding yourself. Breeding and genetics research should be the last step after careful research of husbandry and emergency/medical topics.

If this post was asking questions to clarify what you have heard about wfb genetics that would have been awesome and you could have gotten a lot of clarification to learn from but you posted your opinion as if it was fact and you are very misinformed with some of your facts. I don't want to hurt your feelings at all, I am just a little concerned for you that you are moving too fast and should be asking questions and reading as opposed to posting factual statements that are misleading. I would be more than happy to give some great websites and show you some genetics books that helped me out if you are interested.

Top
#860763 - 11/01/09 11:05 PM Re: Super WFBs [Re: sugarlope]
ErichB
Unregistered


Thanks Kristen this is one of the reasons I've posted this descusstion because I couldn't get a hold of you tonight and I knew you'd see this. roflmao

I completely understand where your coming from! smile


Edited by ErichB (11/01/09 11:20 PM)

Top
#860773 - 11/01/09 11:19 PM Re: Super WFBs [Re: ]
ErichB
Unregistered


One of the reasons I originlly posted this in Fact or Fiction was because I knew I was going to be wrong in a lot of areas, as I only know what I know about genetics from talking with you and high school. I'm also wondering if this can be moved back to fact for fiction now? I posted what I knew hoping to learn more about it in that section as I said before because I knew there is more to learn. I wasn't trying to "teach" anyone by all means I just saw a couple of threads about it and I posted my thoughts on WF and what I know about genetics, partly because I could get a holf of you for a two hour decusstion on it tonight! roflmao

So what do you say Gretchen can you move it back?
~Erich

Top
#860785 - 11/01/09 11:59 PM Re: Super WFBs [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Quote:
WFB CAN be both heterozygous and homozygous.


If WFB CAN be heterozygous, then why, in the 11+ years I've had gliders have I NEVER seen or heard of a WFB being born to two "hets"? Sorry, either the glider expresses the wf trait or it does not carry the gene. At least ONE parent HAS to be a WF in order to produce wf offspring.

(maybe the debate over whether or not there are wf hets should be in fact or fiction?)
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

Top
#860802 - 11/02/09 02:52 AM Re: Super WFBs [Re: Dancing]
eden
Unregistered


Dancing, in dominant patterns of mendelian inheritance heterozygous and homozygous are expressed differently from recessive patterns of inheritance. Here is a great link explaining how simple patterns of inheritance works
http://www.newenglandreptile.com/genetics_intro.html

WFB, as with any other dominant trait, is visually expressed as long as there is at least one mutated allele present. If the animal has one mutated allele it is visually and genetically WFB, however, it only carries one mutated gene and one standard grey gene. So it would look like this on the punnett square

A a

A AA Aa

a Aa aa

In this example there are two WFB's in the pair but both of them only carry one mutated WFB gene, this makes them essentually heterozygous of the trait but because it is a dominant trait, they visually express it. The AA offspring represents one Joey that did not inherit the WFB gene and is therefor standard grey. There are two Aa offspring also which represent two WFB joeys that inherited one mutated allele and one standard grey allele, making them also heterozygous WFB but visually expressing the trait. The aa offspring represents one joey that inherited two copies of the mutated allele, this would be your super WFB. This joey is only capable of passing on WFB alleles to its offspring but it visually looks no different from WFB's that only carry one mutated allele because the trait is dominant NOT codominant so there is no super form. Perhaps you should take a look at the link I provided to learn more about the basics of how recessive, dominant, and codominant works. Every trait, no matter if it is dominant, recessive, or codominant will have pairs of alleles, its just that they differ in how each is expressed visually. Recessive requires both copies to visually express the trait while dominant mutations only require one. In co-dominance the heterozygous form is visually different from standard grey but its homozygous form is visually different from both standard and the heterozygous form, it is the super form. Of course you have never seen a WFB produced from standard greys because hets FOR WFB do not exist since it is not recessive, HOWEVER, the term heterozygous refers to any animal that carries ONE mutated allele and ONE normal allele so it only refers to an animal that CARRIES a trait in recessive inheritance. If you used the same punnett square as above but the little a represents a mutated Leucistic gene then you would have one normal offspring, two normal appearing but 100% heterozygous offspring, and one Leucistic homozygous offspring. So you can see that every animal inherits two copies of alleles but how they are expressed visually differs depending on the pattern of inheritance but the basic laws of homozygous and heterozygous apply to them all. Homozygous by definition refers to an animal that carries two copies of alleles for any given trait and heterozygous refers to an animal with only one copy of an allele for any given trait. Both terms are solely for describing the genotype or genetic makeup of an animal NOT how the animal appears visually. I hope that helps you understand how basic genetics work.

Top
#860854 - 11/02/09 07:36 AM Re: Super WFBs [Re: ]
MizValorie Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2579
Loc: Sherman, Texas
Kristen I just wanted to say I love your post on slowing down and just enjoying your gliders. There are a lot of newbies that need to read that.
_________________________
Valorie and our 10 fur children

RIP Mary Kate

Top
#860957 - 11/02/09 11:53 AM Re: Super WFBs [Re: MizValorie]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Quote:
Of course you have never seen a WFB produced from standard greys because hets FOR WFB do not exist since it is not recessive, HOWEVER, the term heterozygous refers to any animal that carries ONE mutated allele and ONE normal allele so it only refers to an animal that CARRIES a trait in recessive inheritance.


Ok, here is where I have an issue. When dealing with gliders, (and only dealing with gliders in this case) we know that two leu "hets" (proven, 100% unproven) CAN have a leu joey. Because of this, proven or 100% leu hets cost more. We also know that the same does NOT apply to the wf trait. (or the mosaic trait) There is no such thing as a "het" for wf that will produce wf offspring but there ARE unscrupulous breeders that will and do charge MORE for the supposed "het" offspring, leading the misinformed to think if they pay more for "het for wf" gliders they will get wf joeys. This has to do with the non specific catagorizing of the term "het". It prays on the uninformed. Sadly, this also leads to gliders being rehomed or put into rescue situations because they didn't produce what they were told, or lead to believe, they would reproduce. Let's face it, the MAJORITY of people are not going to go into detailed study of the genetics. They want it simplified for them. The simple answer for them is...there are no wf hets. (that will produce wf offspring)

(oh, and I have been doing this for a large number of years and I do understand the genetics involved)
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

Top
#860991 - 11/02/09 01:04 PM Re: Super WFBs [Re: Dancing]
eden
Unregistered


The issue of selling gliders as 100% hets for traits that are not recessive is further illustration that accurate genetics information is so important. The responsibility of researching the genetics of the gliders you are interested in or at least knowing what you are paying for falls completely onto the shoulders of the buyer. The individuals who are selling them are horrible and what they are doing is unethical but being scammed by them is absolutely and completely the fault of the ignorant buyer who should have done more research. The best thing we can all do is make sure that accurate information is available to anyone who wishes to look it up so that they are able to educate themselves and prevent being scammed.

Just because some individuals need it simplified or you personally don't like the term being used incorrectly by the uninformed does not mean that it is not scientifically accurate. Do you honestly believe that it would be better to allow misinformation to be thrown around because you think everybody is too dumb to understand the truth if presented properly? What I have a problem with is threads that give definitions or other misinformation that newer people take as gospel which further perpetuates the cycle. This thread could easily lead individuals to believe that there is a secret gene going on in WFB or that there is some way to make a suger glider whos offspring and grand-offspring etc will NEVER be able to produce standard grey. That in itself is a scam!

With all due respect, I think what you posted proves the point further that accurate information is worth its weight in gold and I am a firm firm believer that if you are going to breed an animal you really should have at least the basic understanding of simple genetics. If you are going to work with morphs, however, then you need to have a much more complex understanding so that you are not marketing WFBs as having the standard gene completely bred out from them etc. If somebody purchased a WFB as a super WFB (homozygous) and then paired it with anything other than another super WFB (homozygous) then it would produce some standard grey offspring simply because one parent is capable of passing on the grey gene. That means the individual who purchased that WFB thinking that is all they would ever produce from it is going to get a nasty shock.

With all due respect, the fact that you agreed with everything Erich said and did not understand that WFB can be heterozygous shows that perhaps you are not as well versed in genetics as you thought. There is absolutely nothing wrong with not having a full understanding of genetics, everyone is always learning, I myself am constantly learning new things in that field, but posting genetics information in the form of facts should not be posted by individuals without a more complete understanding because it will serve to only perpetuate the cycle of misinformation.

On a side note, I just want to make it clear that...

1. There are no standard greys that are 100% het for WFB, there are only actual WFBs that are heterozygous meaning they carry one grey gene and one WFB gene but they are visually WFB

2. WFB does NOT have a super form because it is a dominant trait. We have been using the term super WFB but tht only refers to the homozygous state which is a pair of mutated alleles but there is no visually different super form such as in co-dominant traits.


Edited by eden (11/02/09 01:10 PM)

Top
#861043 - 11/02/09 03:17 PM Re: Super WFBs [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Quote:
With all due respect, the fact that you agreed with everything Erich said and did not understand that WFB can be heterozygous shows that perhaps you are not as well versed in genetics as you thought.


With all due respect, where did I post I agree with everything that was posted by Erich? And it is pretty presumptious for you to assume you have any idea what so ever as to what I do know and do not, what my level of education is or is not, nor my what my own personal experiences are.

My comment to Erich was nothing more than a comment as to HIS research and his willingness to put it up for debate to determine what IS fact and what IS fiction. From his point of view, he posted what he believes in a forum where it could be debunked if his information was incorrect.

Quote:
Do you honestly believe that it would be better to allow misinformation to be thrown around because you think everybody is too dumb to understand the truth if presented properly?


Absolutely not. But MY EXPERIENCE is that the truth is almost NEVER presented properly so yes, for MOST situations, the simplified version DOES need to be put out there. Then if the person is interested in knowing the scientific details (which many are not) then it can be further explained. This does not mean I believe everyone is to dumb to understand, just that many don't CARE to understand the full scientific details. SADLY, most that ask just want to know what color joeys they will get if they pair glider A with glider B.

OH, and for the record here...I have never believed in the "super WFB" other than to indicate that "this pair" of gliders have never thrown anything but wfb and their joeys have never thrown anything but wfb. That is not to say they CAN'T throw non wf joeys. I also do not refer to MY wf gliders as anything other than wf gliders. Though I will add the generation level, such as 4.5 gen, IF it is appropriate to the conversation.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

Top
#861079 - 11/02/09 04:19 PM Re: Super WFBs [Re: Dancing]
eden
Unregistered


Dancing, first of all, I want to appologize for any offense you thought my posts were intending. I certainly am not trying to attack you. I have a tendency to be brutally honest in my observations but I do not intend any disrespect at all.

To answer your question, your lack of correction of anything Erich had posted and your enthusiastic interest in his ideas of a super WF trait were what led me to the observation that you agreed with him. I do not presume to know anything about you at all so I am certainly not making a judgement call on your education or personal experiences at all, I am making an observation strictly on the lack of correct information that has been presented in this thread. I don't know you, all I know is what has been presented in this public forum so I would never presume to judge you as a person at all, I have only observed that what you have displayed in this thread is not the most correct information and that is why I said that PERHAPS you do not have as much correct information as you thought or maybe there is just more information available on this subject than what you have personally studied.

I can appreciate where you are coming from that most people do not want to take the time to learn the more intricate details of complex genetics and instead want a simplified two-sentence explanation of how to get from point A to point B. I just do not feel that it is any reason to allow misinformation to be spread around. I feel that the more involved, educated, and experienced within this community have an obligation to promote the distribution of correct information and to debunk the flawed information. I feel that those more experienced members, such as yourself, are thought of in a higher regard and whatever you post is taken more seriously, so if you allow flawed information to be spread and show enthusiasm for it as you did in this thread without any actual correction or guidance, it makes newer people more likely to take it as truth simply because "the well-respected members didn't dispute it so it must be true". If those of us with more experience and knowledge to share don't step up and help guide newer individuals towards better education and better informed decisions than we are not doing right by the Gliders and the hobby as a whole will suffer.

Most people who are registered and active on this forum are here because they want to learn and become more educated so of course if a thread comes up where somebody like Erich wants to post his or her opinions and get feedback so that they can then become better educated from the feedback they get then they deserve to get correct, informed responses so that they can better themselves, thereby bettering the entire community. Erich didn't want a pat on the back for showing his efforts, he wanted educated, informed feedback so that he could learn from it and make progress.

Again though, I would not presume to judge you as a person and certainly do not mean any disrespect. I have my own opinions and observations on your posts but they are simply that, my observations, nothing more.

Top
#861530 - 11/03/09 04:46 PM Re: Super WFBs [Re: ]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
off_topic I haven't read everything yet - but I will respond to this really quickly. smile
Originally Posted By: ErichB
So what do you say Gretchen can you move it back?
~Erich


The Fact vs. Fiction forum is really to address the old 'wives tales' that we have heard for years about gliders.

This is a great topic, thank you for starting it, but it really does belong in Breeding and Babies. Discussion threads are wonderful regardless of which forum they take place in, so keep posting! grin
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

Top
#861808 - 11/04/09 10:17 AM Re: Super WFBs [Re: sugarlope]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
It would be nice if everyone could gain the expertise in genetics, but it's just not going to happen. If "scientifically" you say there in fact are WF Hets, then there is going to be serious misunderstanding in this glider community.

Whatever terminology gets placed, a gray glider born from a WF and a gray will not reproduce a WF offspring. At least it hasn't in all the years that these gliders have been reproduced in the United States! That is why it is understood here, that there are not WF Hets.

It is also my understanding that the term "Super White" is simply a WF glider that always reproduces WF offspring. That is what Sir Lance is considered. He has only ever been paired with three different gray gliders and every offspring have been WF joeys. So the term "Super White" may not exist in genetics terminolgy, but it's a descriptor we use so the general public can understand what we mean.

When breeding these color variations, like was mentioned above, every breeder is not going to study and become a genetics expert, nor are those that are buying these joeys. There has to be some explanations that the general public can clearly understand. That doesn't mean it is incorrect or misleading information.

I was told a few years ago that I was buying WF Hets. My assumption was that two hets paired together would reproduce WF joeys. WRONG! That is why we do not refer to them as WF Hets.
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



Top
#861864 - 11/04/09 01:06 PM Re: Super WFBs [Re: GliderNursery]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Thank you Shelle, that is what my point was.

We have terms used in the glider community that while might be "scientifically incorrect" they are not being used incorrectly. Just as we tell people to use a Q-tip when what we mean is a cotton swab. It isn't "incorrect" just technically incorrect.

The terms are used in a way that the majority of people know what we are talking about. Face it, it is the minority that is going to search out the "scientific facts". So we have to address our comments to and use terms geared for, the majority. (target audience)
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

Top
#861890 - 11/04/09 02:25 PM Re: Super WFBs [Re: Dancing]
eden
Unregistered


I completely agree with you guys that there should be simplified versions of the information. But in this particular thread Erich wanted the exact scientific information. What he was posting was false, even for a modified "dumbed down" version it was false. That is why I posted the correct terminology and explained it in this particular thread. In another thread if somebody just wanted a two sentence answer then by all means give them the simple no-nonsense response. But in a thread where the information is just wrong, in any version, and the poster is looking for the actual scientific terminology to be explained in more complex detail then they should have that information presented to them, which is what I did. Erich himself was attempting to post more scientific details here so I corrected him using the same terminology. I personally think this community should be striving to push newer members to educate themselves and take pride in having correct knowledge of what they are doing, otherwise they are just playing God with no guidebook so to speak. That is just my personal opinion though. Bottom line though, if an individual posts a thread asking for more scientific, in-depth information then they should be given it, especially if the information they have is incorrect. There are many members here that would like just simple explanations, but there are others that love to get more in-depth information and for those members it should be made available and correct.

Top
#861915 - 11/04/09 03:34 PM Re: Super WFBs [Re: ]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Your statement
Quote:
but WFB CAN be both heterozygous and homozygous

may be scientifically correct, and I do not know if it is or isn't (your logic made sense), but I do know that at this point in breeding WF gliders, there is not a WF het as we use the term. Maybe a further clear explanation would have been better than to just leave it at that. To me, that means 2 hets can reproduce WF offspring when it simply doesn't happen.
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



Top
#861929 - 11/04/09 04:09 PM Re: Super WFBs [Re: GliderNursery]
ErichB
Unregistered


Hi Shelly,

The reason in my eyes, that owners/breeders like you see "hets" as two gliders who produce the said colour offspring is because most people in this glider community only know about Co-dominance in a simplified form like the leucistic or the Platinum lines. But a Dominant homozygous like WF can be also heterozygous-het-, I simply said that there isn't a het form in the OP because I knew I was wrong on a few things and I didn't do a great job at explaining what I was trying to get at. But genetically speaking a WF can carry a WF allele and a Grey allele, but if the Grey allele was bred out and replaced in the chromosomal cluster with another or WF allele then, the said glider can only pass on ether of the two WF alleles. So the said glider is a homozygous WF and also be "heterozygous" because it passes on the two genes and one is already expressed. The reason why people can or have a hard time wrapping their minds around the concept is because we have firstly learned that "hets" can only be a Co-Dominate trait, but genetically speaking again it can happen with a Dominate allele but not in the "normal" way we have seen it with leu hets and the sort.

~Erich

Hopefully I've gotten it right. :fall:

Top
#861943 - 11/04/09 04:51 PM Re: Super WFBs [Re: ]
Spot
Unregistered


holy crolys, Erich.... you've really come a long way in a real sort time, I do agree with slowing down. I'm still learn tones by just have joeys.... Like Keylow.... i've gotten lots of help, but finding in my own case. Keylow has become nothing like what ive read about.

Top
#861947 - 11/04/09 05:02 PM Re: Super WFBs [Re: ]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Quote:
I simply said that there isn't a het form in the OP because I knew I was wrong on a few things and I didn't do a great job at explaining what I was trying to get at. But genetically speaking a WF can carry a WF allele and a Grey allele, but if the Grey allele was bred out and replaced in the chromosomal cluster with another or WF allele then, the said glider can only pass on ether of the two WF alleles. So the said glider is a homozygous WF and also be "heterozygous" because it passes on the two genes and one is already expressed.


Sorry, this lost me.

For me, it's needs to stay basic. Is this "basically" what you are saying? Genetically speaking, a WF Het is a WF glider that reproduces WF and grey offpring. (Which by the way would be the majority of the WF gliders out there!) And a homozygous WF is a glider that only reproduces WF offspring, what we call a super white. ??



Edited by GliderNursery (11/04/09 06:02 PM)
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



Top
#861965 - 11/04/09 05:51 PM Re: Super WFBs [Re: ]
ErichB
Unregistered


Well I personally do not think I'm rushing things to much, I mean here on GC you can only read through the topics so many times with out it become repetitive on, i.e Joey rejection, Canalization, parents passing away, breeding basics, cute pictures, more cute pictures. And I find that there is hardly any relevant topics that I'd enjoy taking part it about nutrition or joey development and Sues website is great! but when you can quot it its a little bad. But most people do not want to openly discuss diet related things like how honey is being used a a replacement for sap and tree gumb and they are NOTHING alike as one is pure sugar and the other is a carbohydrate not seeing how that is a healthy substitute as is why I refuse to feed HPW and the likes. off_topic -I wish it wasn't a mean face-

But if you wish to continue a dietary discussion then make a new thread or PM me. And yes, you learn a lot just my having joeys but I honestly do not want to be unprepared if I fall into a situation like yours with a rejected joeys, I'm not saying yours could have been prevented. But I am saying I'd like to be comfortable with the pre knowledge I have already, of course I'll freak out if/when it happens but I can avoid it by carefully selecting gliders from fine lines, and contacting their siblings owners and seeing how well they are doing in a breeding situation., if I chose to have anymore breeding pairs and watching their personalities and temperaments before introductions like I'm doing with, Roo, Stella and Sophie. I mean if a line has any history with mating wounds or a consistent rejection rate why work with it?

But I'm currently learning about genetics in my Genetic and Micro biology course in school, and I've taken a fascination to it I can read about genetics and there is MORE information on it mostly compared to diets and nutrition. I just wish more people on these forums would talk about nutrition the way I'd like to then gushing over cute pictures, so why should I slow down? I posted an overly "dumb downed" topic hoping to be corrected on it by someone other then Kristen and I wanted to start a new type of discussion on GC that I do enjoy taking part it! Also learning more genetics and nutrition is helping me decide what I want to major in once I'm done highschool and onto University, I mean right now all I know what I'm doing is going for my honors in Science and Biology, major in Animal Biology, Biochemistry and Molecular biology & genetics. And some sort of nutritionist, then going for my Veterinary degree. I'm sixteen and my brain is at its vocal point in learning languages and memorization, so why should I stop reading and learning about what I like before I'm to late and OLD!? I mean posting this thread I could only be corrected and I was, yes I could take a breather from genetics and read Sue's site again on joey development, I just realized I could learn more about the daily intake of nutrients that joeys need to prevent HLP. Although I HAVE read most of the informative threads about it, I wonder if I should e-mail Suz asker her some of my questions..?

~Erich

Top
#861966 - 11/04/09 05:53 PM Re: Super WFBs [Re: ]
ErichB
Unregistered


Yes Shelly you've gotten it! At least what I was trying to get at! roflmao

A "super het" would be a WF glider who only produces WF offspring. smile

~Erich

Top
#861969 - 11/04/09 06:00 PM Re: Super WFBs [Re: ]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Erich - Suz is generally willing to have discussions with you. You should send her a PM and see what happens!

off_topic But holy cow! You're 16 and have such a strong direction for your life already! Maybe I should have you e-mail my 19 year old! LOL Glad to see you using your brain for something worthwhile. I'm just sorry that I can't contribute on a higher level for you!
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



Top
#861970 - 11/04/09 06:03 PM Re: Super WFBs [Re: ]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
I meant to say "Super White" not "super het" in my post above, so I edited it.
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



Top
#861973 - 11/04/09 06:09 PM Re: Super WFBs [Re: GliderNursery]
ErichB
Unregistered


You don't have to be sorry, I'm just fascinated with those subjects. roflmao And my mother has had me rant about University with my 21 year old brother in the room and it got his wheels spinning, LOL you never know about your 19 year old. And I know Suz is willing to take part in discussions but I know she is almost contacted on a daily basis on more relevant things, I can easily bug Kristen or look on Suz's site for reference. But I might see if I could impose on her with a few of my questions.

~Erich

Top
#861976 - 11/04/09 06:10 PM Re: Super WFBs [Re: ]
ErichB
Unregistered


Ps, I forgot to thank you and everyone else for taking part in this discussion!

~Erich

Top
#861980 - 11/04/09 06:12 PM Re: Super WFBs [Re: ]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
No problem!
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



Top
#862083 - 11/04/09 09:01 PM Re: Super WFBs [Re: GliderNursery]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Quote:
I am saying I'd like to be comfortable with the pre knowledge I have already, of course I'll freak out if/when it happens but I can avoid it by carefully selecting gliders from fine lines, and contacting their siblings owners and seeing how well they are doing in a breeding situation., if I chose to have anymore breeding pairs and watching their personalities and temperaments before introductions like I'm doing with, Roo, Stella and Sophie. I mean if a line has any history with mating wounds or a consistent rejection rate why work with it?


Ok, I"m going to address this one first. Even if you get gliders from parents that have never had ANY breeding issues (such as mating wounds, rejected joeys, canabalized joeys, joeys with birth defects, joeys that were wounded while still ip, under weight, under developed, etc) and none of their siblings or grandparents had any of these issues does not mean that you won't experience any of these things with the glider itself. While some of this might be learned behavior, there are so many contributing factors that come into play that there just isn't a way to blame the problems on the "line".


Quote:
so why should I stop reading and learning about what I like before I'm to late and OLD!?


Now for this one. Define OLD. I'm 46 and believe my mind/brain is still growing and expanding. I learn new things daily and crave learning new things. So your comment coming from a 16 yr old has me a bit confused and well, honestly a bit offended. A person is NEVER to OLD to learn or crave learning or be able to absorb new ideas and thoughts.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

Top
#862115 - 11/04/09 10:15 PM Re: Super WFBs [Re: Dancing]
eden
Unregistered


Quote:
Is this "basically" what you are saying? Genetically speaking, a WF Het is a WF glider that reproduces WF and grey offpring. (Which by the way would be the majority of the WF gliders out there!) And a homozygous WF is a glider that only reproduces WF offspring, what we call a super white. ??


YES!!! smile That is exactly it!!


Quote:
The reason in my eyes, that owners/breeders like you see "hets" as two gliders who produce the said colour offspring is because most people in this glider community only know about Co-dominance in a simplified form like the leucistic or the Platinum lines


Erich, I think you meant that Leucistic and Platinum are recessive. Co-dominance is when the Heterozygous form is visually different from normal but the Homozygous form is visually different from both.

Quote:
reason why people can or have a hard time wrapping their minds around the concept is because we have firstly learned that "hets" can only be a Co-Dominate trait


"Hets" as it is used in this community refers to the recessive trait, not co-dominant.


I know it is a whole lot to take in all at once but good for you for putting in such an awesome and dedicated effort to learn it all! You are on the right path, just need some minor tweeking lol

Top




Moderator:  Feather, KarenE, Ladymagyver, Philwojo 
Sugar Glider Help Page



Please click above to see how you can help!!

Moon
CURRENT MOON
Who's Online
1 registered (KarenE), 25 Guests and 18 Spiders online.
Key: Owner, Admin, Mod
Newest Members
MRK, Ronin, shelby, nolan, jazzy82m
6445 Registered Users
Forum Stats
12 posts in the last 24hrs
6446 Members
134 Forums
8984 Topics
148604 Posts

Max Online: 478 @ 07/15/07 01:24 AM
Last 10 New Topics
New odor issue??
by AlyCatz
12/08/17 05:37 PM
Lighter Gliders??
by AlyCatz
12/08/17 05:25 PM
Bing, bing, bing.... It's
by Terry
12/08/17 09:33 AM
Blindnedd in red eye gliders
by mechnut450
12/08/17 06:28 AM
Happy Birthday Nejwig
by Feather
12/07/17 05:33 PM
Been Distracted...
by Ladymagyver
12/06/17 07:25 PM
Introductions - two male Joey's meeting 8 year old recently single
by 3dymondsgliders
12/05/17 03:57 PM
is the stuff critter love sells the same as the HPW mix??
by Athena26
12/05/17 03:48 PM
Where to get my boys neutered?
by Claralice
12/04/17 10:57 PM
Third set of Gliders but here to stay!
by Claralice
12/03/17 07:17 PM
(Views)Popular Topics
I just found a lump on Timmy's chest--HELP! 20204842
Spencer needs your prayers/good thoughts 12468249
TEXAS 658268
Pitbull biter needs advice/help 606432
OHIO 518677
Member Titles 460477
MISSOURI 393848
HOLY CRACKERS AMERICAN HPW's 371411
OKLAHOMA 353785
URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered 351979
Supported Browser
This site was tested and is best viewed in Google Chrome & Mozilla FireFox



Firefox 3

Download your copy today!!!


GliderCENTRAL
©1998-2017