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#8648 - 07/30/03 12:30 AM Self-Mutilation
Devil_Bunny_Girl Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Buckeye, AZ
I think I've found out what is really going on with Napoleon. What I thought to be him "flossing" appears more to be self mutilation. I'm absolutely terrified right now. I don't know what to do...I'm taking him to a vet in the morning... and hope to god he can help me. I'm so scared for my little guy. Why do they do this? What causes this self-mutilation??? WHY???? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/upset.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
~Bunny A.K.A. Shanna Banana~

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#8649 - 07/30/03 12:52 AM Re: Self-Mutilation [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Umm, slow down, and take a deep breath.
can you explain to us why you think there's more going on ?

Please be more detailed ...are there wounds on his privates ? is there a hissing noise, a pain cry noise unlike any sound you ever heard from him before ?


Tanja




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#8650 - 07/30/03 12:53 AM Re: Self-Mutilation [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
My suggestion if he is chewing....get an e-collar on him now and get him to an Emerg Clinic tonight.

Contact someone from the Self Mutilation site on the EVF. Ken or Danielle are in Ill, Tom Havens, Bourbon or Mary of Glider Tree.
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#8651 - 07/30/03 12:55 AM Re: Self-Mutilation [Re: ]
Devil_Bunny_Girl Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Buckeye, AZ
He gave off this odd crying/crabbing as he was going at his genitals. I tried to take him out of his pouch tonight, and he bit me really, really hard. His genital area appears to be slightly bloody. He wont let me examine him any. He's not doing anything right now, and hasn't for an hour.. He's just kind of hanging upside down in the back corner of his cage, looking at the wall and listening to me type and talk to him.
_________________________
~Bunny A.K.A. Shanna Banana~

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#8652 - 07/30/03 12:58 AM Re: Self-Mutilation [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Reyoko has asked some very good questions, can you also give us a background, where you got him, (private, smaller breeder, pet store, etc?, diet, before you, and with you?), age, general health that kind of thing. Is he alone or with another glider?
Thanks! I hope we can help you. And that it's not self mutilating. Also what kind of cage does he have, galvanized, pvc coated, powder coated?
Chey

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#8653 - 07/30/03 01:08 AM Re: Self-Mutilation [Re: ]
Devil_Bunny_Girl Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Buckeye, AZ
I got Nappy at a pet store.. he was 6months old. He's now 10 months old. His previous owner didn't want him and dumped him off at the store..and I was given him as a gift by my parents.

His diet consits of fresh water, Pretty Pets Sugar glider food, fresh fruits (apples, an orange every other week, grapes, cherries, sometimes banana's), a nut once in a while, rep-cal on his fruits, veggies (carrots mostly, sometimes some lettuce and celery), a boiled egg every other week - opposite from the oranges, and a fresh source of Sugar Glider NectaRx every 24 hours.

His cage is PVC coated, but the bottom grate was not. And it just hit me today that it wasn't, so I quickly removed it and replaced his bedding. He has been healthy as far as I know, since I've gotten him. He has never acted out of the ordinary till roughly 12AM on the 29th. He lives alone.
_________________________
~Bunny A.K.A. Shanna Banana~

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#8654 - 07/30/03 01:18 AM Re: Self-Mutilation [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Please check into a different diet from Pretty Pets, if I'm not mistaken, they are multicolored little balls? Mine won't touch them and they would probably throw them at me if I tried to feed them that! Here is a diet page of links: Diet Choices Personally, I use BML, that way I don't have to sprinkle their vitamins and cal on their food. I wouldn't like it that way and didn't think they would! What makes you think he is self mutilating?
Chey

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#8655 - 07/30/03 01:34 AM Re: Self-Mutilation [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hmm, try feeding him some favourite foods, through the bars of the cage, or other way, to where you may get a good look at his behind <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> LOL
You need to get an e-collar on him asap, and take him to the vet asap. Here's a link on how to make an e-collar

Tanja

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#8656 - 07/30/03 01:35 AM Re: Self-Mutilation [Re: ]
Devil_Bunny_Girl Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Buckeye, AZ
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
What makes you think he is self mutilating?
Chey

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

The strange crying/crabbing noise he's making..and the constant attacks he is making on his genitalia. That area is bloody looking, but not excessively.. I tried to take him out to examine him but I can't get him out of his cage to properly do so.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
~Bunny A.K.A. Shanna Banana~

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#8657 - 07/30/03 01:38 AM Re: Self-Mutilation [Re: ]
Devil_Bunny_Girl Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Buckeye, AZ
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Hmm, try feeding him some favourite foods, through the bars of the cage, or other way, to where you may get a good look at his behind <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Tanja

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I tried to get him to come over for me to see him, but he wont. I even tried some honey and yogurt. Those are his favorite treats.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Poor little guy. I feel absolutely terrible. This is all my fault. At least he is sleeping right now. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohwell.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
~Bunny A.K.A. Shanna Banana~

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#8658 - 07/30/03 01:41 AM Re: Self-Mutilation [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
You need to get him to an emerg clinic befor he does further injury to himself. Waiting till morning may be to late as by then he may have done extensive injury to himself.

Some causes for mutilation can be from a UTI infection and especialy if housed in a cage with galvanized wire, or severe constipation. He is chewing himself due to being in severe pain. Get your glider to a vet ASAP if you do not have an e-collar.


Edited by Judie (07/30/03 01:46 AM)
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#8659 - 07/30/03 01:43 AM Re: Self-Mutilation [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ok, E-collar needed, and vet needed. E-collar link, in the last post of mine above yours. Have the vet check for dehydration, give you torbitol for pain management, and run a bacterial on the urinal.
Fecal smear and float also recomended.


Tanja


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#8660 - 07/30/03 06:43 AM Re: Self-Mutilation [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


The sooner he gets to the vet the better. Have him do the tests mentioned in an earlier post (fecal/urinalysis). It is also very important to get him in an e-collar to prevent any further damage. Gliders can cause damage that is severe quite quickly. Has he been eating okay lately? Look at the diets link that was previously posted as well. I also highly suggest bml for gliders that are doing any type of self mutilation. This is not your fault and could be a cause of many things. I am also listed at the glider health website as a contact, so feel free to contact me or anybody else listed. Let us know how the vet visit goes. Here is the glider health website: Glider Health

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#8661 - 07/30/03 07:02 AM Re: Self-Mutilation [Re: ]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
Bindy, I need you to get her into private email, and help her through this, if you can't we need to get danielle in there with her.

Bunny....Be sure that e-collar is on and on right, and follow up with the vet, please please.. the amount of damage is the difference between being able to save him.
_________________________
Baybe,My Roots

SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

321-331-1608

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#8662 - 07/30/03 09:20 AM Re: Self-Mutilation [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have sent a private email and am awaiting a response. Please let us know how the vet visit went and if you have put on an ecollar.

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#8663 - 07/30/03 09:54 AM Re: Self-Mutilation [Re: ]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
sadly no news is always scarey...
I just got most of the sm site up

at the info tree

http://www.harborpro.com/phpBB2/index.php

and we also have the sm site at gliderhealth that Bindy posted..

http://gliderhealth.com/slfmutl/index.html


when a post gets made like this, the first thing people need to do is send them to one of those 2 places, they MUST get an e-collar on and then contact one of us. we can also help them with their collar..
but most of the time spent here was wasted time, I see everyone say get the collar on, but only later was the link posted where it was.

Many people don't understand the urgency in getting the proper help in these areas.

please forgive me, this is mainly frustration talking, but advice that needs to be heeded.. please folks, bookmark those sites so these guys can get immediate help.

Ecollar first...
contacts next
questions last
_________________________
Baybe,My Roots

SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

321-331-1608

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#8664 - 07/30/03 10:54 AM Re: Self-Mutilation [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Bunny - I'm sorry to hear you're going through this. I just did with Riker. Please listen to Bourbon-she's been through this with many of us with self mutilating gliders and as much as he may hate it, the e-collar is a non-negotiable MUST. Until I could get Riker's on I kept him in his bonding pouch with my hand in the way or a piece of washcloth and let him bite that or me (went through lots of Betadine on my hands for a few days). Most important-DON'T PANIC. He is going to depend on you for his life.

Think of it this way-Riker started with the onset of puberty/flossing and a UTI. He hurt down there. Our little guys are intelligent, but also have some very strong instincts. To them, this pain makes them think that something is attacking them. The instinct is to attack it back to make it stop-biting, etc. This makes the pain worse, which makes them attack back harder. This is where the vicious cycle starts. They don't understand that they (in part) are causing a lot of the pain that they're trying to fight. It's up to you to break the cycle. Stop him from chewing on himself at ALL COSTS.

I want to ask: has he just started flossing recently? Riker started this within a few days or so. We had him neutered quickly, and it seems (8 weeks and counting he's been out of the collar) to have helped.

I can't say enough-LISTEN TO BOURBON!! Get your little one to a vet ASAP and if you have trouble with a collar I can send you one already made. Just let me know, and keep us updated. You'll be in our prayers.

NOTE: YOU MAY JUST HAVE TO REACH IN WITH A TOWEL AND GRAB HIM, AND DEPOSIT HIM IN HIS POUCH! It might upset him for a moment, but believe me, he is concerned far more with other things right now than to stay that way. He can't save himself-it's up to you. We're here for you and you can contact us at any time. I'll even PM you my phone # if you need to talk, but Bourbon is the one for expert advice.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#8665 - 07/30/03 11:06 AM Re: Self-Mutilation [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
PM sent
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#8666 - 07/30/03 11:34 AM Re: Self-Mutilation [Re: ]
Lucy Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/14/01
Posts: 7354
Loc: Lexington, KY
Shanna, please give us an update! We're really concerned --
_________________________


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#8667 - 07/30/03 12:06 PM Re: Self-Mutilation [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Waiting for an update on this little guy.

Sites for information are now bookmarked.


Edited by Judie (07/30/03 12:13 PM)
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#8668 - 07/30/03 12:25 PM Re: Self-Mutilation [Re: ]
Devil_Bunny_Girl Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Buckeye, AZ
Just got home -- tried calling contacts but with no success. It's cool though.. I'm calm, collected, and prepared for anything at this point. After posting last night I made calls to area clinics for emergency care. There was nothing for gliders...but at that point, Napoleon was asleep and hadn't done anything further to himself. I curled up in bed with him in my arms and layed there all night with him, to keep an eye on him.

Took him to a vet that was listed on the vet database on this site: Indian Prarie Animal Hospital <~ That's where I was at.

Napoleon was excellent as far as letting the doctor examine him and so forth. He enjoyed it so much that he urinated ALL OVER the vet, which, was mentioned to be an excellent sign, just too bad it was on the vet and not in a sample cup.

I was encouraged to obtain a stool sample and bring it in on friday when we go back in for another check up. Right now, the vet has Napoleon on Baytril .565% twice a day. This is to help clear up infection (if any) as well as prevent infection.

I'm in the process of constructing an ecollar, but I swear, I'm doing it wrong..or I'm just worried I am doing it wrong.

Napoleon is sleeping here in my lap. He's been sleeping since we left the vet. He was so good. I was also instructed to place Neosporin + Pain relief on the area after I get the collar on.

The vet was certain that there wasn't a great deal of damage and that it was good that I caught it as soon as I did. He believes that we can heal this without any surgery, but if there is any extensive damage or isn't healing properly, then surgery may be needed.

He was glad to see Napoleon urinating -- showed that he wasn't dehydrated and that he was infact healthy. I'm glad.

I will continue to contact those that were recommended to me in hopes to just have someone to talk to...

I seriously love you guys. You're the best... I really mean it. Napoleon and I appreciate your warm, loving kindness wihth all our hearts.
_________________________
~Bunny A.K.A. Shanna Banana~

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#8669 - 07/30/03 12:34 PM Re: Self-Mutilation [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm so glad to hear he's doing okay for now. I'm sure the others will be along soon with more info than I can offer. Just wanted to extend my good wishes and those from Bugsy and Rachel! There are several people that have experience with this that will be very helpful to you. Good luck <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />

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#8670 - 07/30/03 12:38 PM Re: Self-Mutilation [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I just emailed you another number. It appears that we live quite close to each other. I'm glad to hear that the vet visit went smoothly.

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#8671 - 07/30/03 01:36 PM Re: Self-Mutilation [Re: ]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
Devil bunny email sent. I would like to move this discussion over to the self mutilating part of the info tree so you can get more personalized help in this area. I hope the others understand, she can post updates here.
_________________________
Baybe,My Roots

SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

321-331-1608

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#8672 - 07/30/03 02:40 PM Re: Self-Mutilation [Re: ]
Lucy Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/14/01
Posts: 7354
Loc: Lexington, KY
I very much hope the discussion can continue here as well, so we can all learn more as this recovery continues.
_________________________


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#8673 - 07/30/03 04:02 PM Re: Self-Mutilation [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Man, you know, i feel bad, that i didn't mention an e-collar and a vet sooner than what i did, and that i didn't provide the links to Burbon's self-mutilation help site. But at first i just didn't have enough info to think it was actual self-mutilation case going on, and wanted to calm her down. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crying.gif" alt="" />

There was another suspected self mutilation case recently, and it turned out to be a false alarm, and i felt like an idiot, as that person didn't really give a full story either. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worried2.gif" alt="" />


I guess it goes to show, that we all need to make detailed posts, and give plenty of crucial info, so that others know how to direct their help.


I hope this offends no one but rather shows both sides of the coin.
I just had to get this out.

I'm very glad to hear that little napoleon hasn't done too much damage at this point, and has been given all the care possible at this time.
Kudos to all involved. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />


Tanja

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#8674 - 07/30/03 04:59 PM Re: Self-Mutilation [Re: ]
KattyM Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 9910
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
I'm glad Napolean is doing well! I went to the self mutiliation site with the e-collar instructions. I'd like to make one, just in case (I know, I'm paranoid--both my gliders are healthy, thank God), but I want to be prepared JUST IN CASE! My question is, there is mention made that the sketch of moleskin strip is not to scale. It diagrams 2.25" and 4.5". The template is 1-3/16" x 5". Do I make something that is 2.25" (and then folded in half) by 4.5"? Or do I make something that is 1-3/6" (and then folded in half) by 5"?

Many thanks!
_________________________
Owned by my :grey: "Eight is Enough" colony:

2003: Hiroshi (M)
2009: Herbie (M)

:rbridge:
2002-2004: Keiko (F) and baby Tomoki (M)
2009: Sammy (F), Charlie (F), Murray (M)
2010: BJ (M)
My gallery

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#8675 - 07/31/03 01:22 AM Update On Napoleon.. [Re: ]
Devil_Bunny_Girl Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Buckeye, AZ
Had a heck of a time getting that darned ecollar on him. My mother and I constructed a "softer" version using vet wrap and moleskin. Looks like a neck brace that someone who broke their neck would wear. The good news is this collar hasn't come off....YET. *knocks on wood*

Aye mi... I need sleep...and food....


Edited by robin (08/08/03 01:18 PM)
_________________________
~Bunny A.K.A. Shanna Banana~

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#8676 - 07/31/03 08:11 AM Re: Update On Napoleon.. [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sending glider hugs and prayers for Napoleon <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />

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#8677 - 08/01/03 11:04 AM Nappy Update... [Re: ]
Devil_Bunny_Girl Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Buckeye, AZ
Napoleon is currently at the vet's office under examination by Todd Gray. DVM. He's a really nice guy. He examined Napoleon and thought it best that I leave him there for the day/afternoon for examinations. I brought in a stool sample, fresh from this morning, and Dr. Gray stated that it looked healthy and clean. It wasn't runny, a fairly good example of a healthy stool. Napoleon weighed in at 90 grams; they were able to correctly weight him today!

Dr. Gray thought that the collar I made was a good idea, but he feels that it's just not doing what we want it to do. I reported that since the last visit Napoleon had not mutilated himself till this morning at 9AM. I was getting gas in my car, and all of a sudden he did that noise again. In an instant I grabbed for his pouch, and the noise stopped. I'm only assuming he was at himself. It was so quick that I really didn't get to see anything at all. His little nose sniffed at my fingers, he licked them and then closed his eyes to sleep the whole way to the vet's office.

Anyway, Dr. Gray is keeping him there for observation. They're going to put him under anestesia -- which he promised me was used successfully by several doctors on sugar gliders -- and once under, they're going to clean Napoleon's genitals, clear away any "dead" tissues and make sure that he is correctly expelling his bodily wastes. He then said they are going to construct an ecollar, and if they can't get that to stay on him, they will construct a vest for Nappy to wear that will not allow him to bend his torso to reach his genitalia. Dr. Gray also told me that if Napoleon's damage is far too great where he is unable to pass urine and fecal matter, then his chances of survival are grim. But, he also suggested that if Napoleon does survive, that the healing process will be a long one (Just as Belinda had discussed with me) and that I may want to look in to adding Prozac to Napoleon's diet, even though he hasn't shown any other signs of depression, aside from mutilation.

At this point I'm willing to do anything to help Napoleon. If he is so badly damaged that it effects his bodily functions, thus causing him more pain and suffering that can't be fixed, I will do what is necessary and have him put to sleep. I feel absolutely terrible right now. I've not slept since the night of the 29th. I've been around the clock watching over Napoleon, listening, talking, singing, and playing with him.

Right now, I'm going to go take a nap as I wait for a phone call from Dr. Gray to give me his analysis on everything that's going on. I hope Nappy is OK. I was just in the process of getting him a new playmate before this started happening, too. *sighs* I feel terrible. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/upset.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
~Bunny A.K.A. Shanna Banana~

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