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#86561 - 03/06/06 04:19 AM Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
i was wondering if anyone else out there had any mentally or functionally handicapped gliders...my tegan and dimitri have some form of mental handicap with a motor function issue, they are slow learners, will run in circles, throw their head back, seem to prefer to be on their back, nod vigorously when they eat, and they fall in their cage a LOT, i was watching them the other night and in 15 minutes i counted 5 or 6 falls. i would like to help anyone out there that is dealing with this kind of handicap, i have reason to believe it's genetic and may start popping up in new places soon, and was also wondering if there might be anyone out there that could compare info with me...i am about to get their little sister, who seems to be even more severely handicapped than either of them ever were, she has some major difficulties with walking properly, when she grabs something she has difficulty letting go, and she eats ok but has to be given water with an eye dropper.

as far as cage alterations go...i have a lot of hanging toys in their gage, the long fleece boas, and i also have things across the cage so that if they fall, they will land on something like a hammock or will be able to grab onto something. the trouble is they go and go and go and go, they run without looking, it's like they're doing a little spaz dance all night, i'm amazed they have so much energy, so you can't keep them in a small cage at ALL, they would freak out and become neurotic. they really like to go UP. so...they have the 5' ebay cage...but they have lots of stuff to break their falls. their wheel is a wodent because they tend to get dumped out in any open-faced wheel...it took tegan a few weeks to learn the wheel, and dimitri several months.

they seemed to grow out of a lot of their handicap but i think it may be more plausible to say that they learned to adapt. they have never been able to pass as normal, especially dimitri. one thing i can say about these two, though, is that they are the most loving and attached gliders i have ever come across. they are so agreeable with me. i can pick up dimitri and flip him over on his back and give him a nice long tummy and neck rub. he is alright with strange people but tegan won't put up with ANY human but me. if she snells another human she will lunge and bite, but if she smells me she is overjoyed. i can get her to allow other people to handle her if i keep my hand with her. very loyal, very sweet, and they HATE being put back in their cage...most of my gliders are happy to go home, but when i am putting T and D away i have to scrape them off my hand and sneak my arm back out the cage door before they can catch up with me. i have heard from kiki that whisper, their sister, will bark and bark and bark until you pick her up. she also prefers to be on her back.

this is dimitri with his classic head cocked to the side...
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/Tegan%20and%20Dimitri/DSC00765.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/Tegan%20and%20Dimitri/DSC00763.jpg

the constant looking back over the shoulder, over and over, with the eyes rolled back...
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/Tegan%20and%20Dimitri/DSC00751.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/Dimitri/IMGP0325.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/Dimitri/DSC00720.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/Dimitri/Picture115.jpg

the preferred back position, all 3...
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/Dimitri/Glider026.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/Dimitri/IMGP0335.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/Tegan/Picture057.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/Tegan/Picture060.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/Whisper/whisper2.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/Whisper/whisperback.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/Whisper/whisper.jpg

i would REALLY like to know what is up with the back position. they are always on their back, i have to use a flat pouch attached at all four corners to the top of their cage because they come out of their pouch on their back, and that way they can just grab hold of the bars and go. it doesn't make any sense to me, although i will admit it's cute as heck.
_________________________
Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

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#86562 - 03/06/06 12:26 PM Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders [Re: ]
Paula0442 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 3008
Loc: Williamsburg, VA & Whg, WV
Could Mom and Dad possibly be closely related???
_________________________
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming
WOOOO HOOOO, WHAT A RIDE!!!



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#86563 - 03/06/06 12:58 PM Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders [Re: ]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
Are they triplets? Possibly close in relations (parents)? They sure are beautiful gliders and look so sweet!
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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#86564 - 03/06/06 05:58 PM Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders [Re: ]
Happy Birthday ScootersPet Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/09/05
Posts: 2092
Loc: Baltimore, MD
Is the owner of mom and dad considering neutering daddy glider? Have they always had some sort of 'mentally/funtionally challenged" joeys?
_________________________



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#86565 - 03/06/06 08:02 PM Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


As genetic abnormalities tend to cluster with inbreeding, I unfortunately would also wonder if the parents are closely related, or if one of the parents was inbred, the owner may bot even know it ;(

Carrie

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#86566 - 03/07/06 05:50 AM Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders [Re: ]
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
i discovered a few months ago that their parents share a common relative; the father's dad is the mother's granddad, so the father is the mother's half-uncle. this distance is often an acceptable distance if breeding for rare recessive color traits (although i would never breed so close). dimitri and tegan were twins, and when their little sister whisper was born about 9 weeks ago and it became obvious that she also had their condition, the pair was separated. 3 out of a total 4 joeys from this pairing have this condition. the father was sold and is being neutered at the new owner's request, and will stay with the other joey from the second breeding, which was a wf het female that doesn't have the condition. the mother is now with another breeder, she will be breeding her to an unrelated male to find out if the gene is codominant. none of the joeys from the new pairing will be offered for sale unless it is proven that the gene will not show up again. i have an agreement with the new breeder that all joeys displaying signs of the condition will come to me; my vet told me that any attempt to pair these special babies with healthy gliders would be fatal, and i have seen signs of this clearly for myself.

with odds like 3 joeys of 4, i find it hard to believe the defect is recessive...a recessive trait would statistically show up in 1/4 joeys. with a codominant, it would show up much more, especially with two carriers. neither of the parents display any sign of the condition, and there have been no other reports of defects from the lines they came from. all i can do is hope that it stays that way, and strongly advise against inbreeding or line breeding white faced lines...this could forseeably become a major issue if it is allowed to spread. these joeys require tons of extra care until they reach 12-14 weeks old, and would never make good parents.


Edited by Dancing (03/24/06 12:24 AM)
_________________________
Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

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#86567 - 03/07/06 06:47 AM Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yes you are definielty right--I've had genetics so I completely understand....there are other possibilities too but that would be far too complicated <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Good luck, what a wonderful glider mom you are, take care of those sweet babies!

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#86568 - 03/07/06 07:45 AM Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders [Re: ]
Paula0442 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 3008
Loc: Williamsburg, VA & Whg, WV
gogo, I would love to hear about the other possibilities.

It's okay, some of us can take it. We'll try real hard to understand you. LOL
_________________________
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming
WOOOO HOOOO, WHAT A RIDE!!!



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#86569 - 03/07/06 12:04 PM Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well, it could be a recessive allele that they both carry, and one parent could actually have the double recessive but just does not express is to the extend of the others, but when it the offspring inheret that copy with the other recessive allele from the heterozygote parent it is amplified (Does that make sense?)(Like a highly functional down-syndrome baby!) or it could be recessive but linked to the X chromosome!! In that case, all male offspring would show it but only a small portion of the females (XY, so this one X would always be "defective")

I have to agree that it is most likely co-dominace though (Think about AB blood type as an example!)

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#86570 - 03/07/06 03:55 PM Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders [Re: ]
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
well, the thing is, tegan is affected but if i had gotten her first i would have just thought she was a bit eccentric. dimitri was the one that made it quite clear. for a while i thought it might be linked to the male gender because he is so much worse than tegan, but whisper blew that out of the water, because she is so much worse than both of her siblings. the other factor is the het female that does not express it at all. so, we have a non-expressing female, a slight expressing female, and a severe expressing female, along with a moderate expressing male. this leads me to believe that it does not have a gender preference.

as for the parents, the father had produced healthy joeys before he was paired with the mother, so the assumption now is that the mother is the carrier if it is codominant, which would mean that it didn't really matter at all if the father was related or not. it IS possible that one of the parents has it but does not express it very clearly, but from what i have seen of the father, and heard of the mother, it would have to be VERY slight, because none of the classic tendencies show, even the preference for being on their back. when you see my two, and compare their behavior to a normal glider, there is no question that there is something different. people that have never even seen gliders before comment on how strangely they carry themselves.
_________________________
Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

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#86571 - 03/07/06 04:53 PM Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


So the other assumption is that - both mom and dad are a carrier of this gene and related to closely. Because siblings from Dante have been bred with no defects, and siblings from Bea have been bred with no defects, but they've never had any of the siblings from either of these lines paired together, except in Dante and Beatrice's case - in which case they threw inflicted joeys. So at the current time she's with my lion male Gus whos totaly unrelated and we'll see what happens. If Beatrice throws defected joeys then she herself is the carrier of the defective gene and will be retired from beeding all together. I am going to TRY and get ahold of one of Dante's siblings to breed one of Beatrice's joeys. If her joeys are healthy to see if it's something hiding in the combination of the two genes - since Dante has been neutered. We'll make sure to keep everyone informed on what goes on and if it's proven the Beatrice is the carrier of the gene - it would be wise to do some studies with some of her siblings aswell to make sure we're not adding gliders to the breeding population that could wind up infecting alot of healthy blood lines with a genetic defect like this one.

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#86572 - 03/08/06 12:08 AM Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


it could be something in the mitochondrial DNA also (Passed from motehr only) I dunno, would definitely suggest NOT bredding either of them, even if they do have "great colors"

At least you have a great relationship with you special lil ones, I am glad they have a mommy like you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#86573 - 03/08/06 01:36 PM Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


It's not about breeding them for color, I won't be offering any of their offspring for sale into the breeding circulation. It's about trying to find out if other gliders that are related and are used for breeding could be producing gliders that have an underlying genetic defect aswell.

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#86574 - 03/08/06 01:41 PM Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Also, I'd like to add that Lilly's (Dante's mom's)parents are half siblings. So this could also just be something as simple as in breeding to closely to many times in a row.

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#86575 - 03/09/06 01:01 AM Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders [Re: ]
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
oh, wow, kiki, guess what...frodo's dad is cereal too...so frodo is lily's half-uncle.

so...that means...frodo (cereal and hera) was bred to lily (doc {cereal and jez} and princess {cereal and jemina}) which produced dante.

then frodo was bred to noel, unrelated, which produced boogie, and boogie was bred to alex, unrelated, which produced beatrice.

then beatrice was bred to dante.

if this has to do with inbreeding, i'd think it would be on dante's side, that boy is so inbred i'm suprised he's not crosseyed...but he never produced any of these joeys on his own. beatrice, however, is not inbred at all. so this means, if beatrice does continue to pass this gene, it has nothing to do with inbreeding anyway...but could be traced back to cereal, since he is the one common ancestor all of these gliders share.
_________________________
Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

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#86576 - 03/09/06 05:28 AM Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I may be out of step here, but why take the chance of breeding her. I just can't see bringing more unstable gliders into the world. Yeah it "might" not be her but it could be so why not just retire these gliders and just enjoy her beautiful white face as a pet only?I don't breed anything so I'm not in a position to know about the breeding and genetics. I am going back to my corner where I am usually quiet.

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#86577 - 03/09/06 12:28 PM Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders [Re: ]
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
i think it's safe to say she will not be bred for color any longer...

now...in the bigger picture...this gene could very well start popping up here and there. these two particular parents have 30 or 40 closely related siblings out in the community being bred. this is a popular line. we can either work to understand it, or we can just retire her and cross our fingers that no more surface. just because this is the first recorded case doesn't mean it couldn't become a trademark of the whitefaced gene later on, which is becoming more and more common. no one is going to listen to us tell them their prized white faces *might* pass on a *recessive* gene the breeder will probably never have to deal with. once we can prove what is happening, and understand it better, we are hoping people will listen to us. we could never hope that all of their siblings will be retired, but we can hope to cut our losses, so to speak.

believe me when i say...after having tegan and dimitri, i don't want to see ANY more joeys with this affliction...kiki is in agreeance, she has spent the last week or so with whisper and is upset at how handicapped she is. what i would like less, though, is for this gene to actually become a common issue glider breeders deal with. i can see where a breeder with the wrong mindset might have a hard time retiring an expensive breeder if it threw a joey with this condition...it would be too easy to just re-pair it.


Edited by Dancing (03/23/06 11:23 PM)
_________________________
Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

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#86578 - 03/09/06 07:30 PM Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I know its a real risk and i do see when some are coming from but we breeders know so little about the gliders and genes that Im glad maybe you can solve this problem. You already have gotten into this, research definately can be documented from this. Kudos to you

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#86579 - 03/09/06 10:57 PM Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


This is an example of why inbreeding is BAD

I am positive it has something to do with that, "bad" genes, recessive, etc tend to crop up way more often with inbreeding, thats sad that so much inbreeding happened, was it an accident, over-sight...how did it even happen in the first place??

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#86580 - 03/10/06 06:40 AM Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


deleted by Dancing


Edited by Dancing (03/23/06 11:39 PM)

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#86581 - 03/10/06 11:57 PM Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders [Re: ]
glidrz5 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 06/13/01
Posts: 7297
Loc: Quincy, IL
The Special Needs Forum is for topics regarding the care of gliders with long term physical defects, including mobility, sight, and hearing impaired gliders. These topic will include housing, care, toys, pouches, and other accessories. Questions regarding genetics and breeding should be posted in the Breeding and Babies forum while this thread deals with the care of gliders with this particular handicap.
Thank You.
_________________________
Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be



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#86582 - 03/17/06 07:13 PM Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


My mother has a glider named Gaer who is an absolute doll, but I've been reading this post for a while and have notice he enjoys spending tim on his back... Alot. He sleeps on his back and will lay in my mothers hand on his back. He seems to have good motor skills and doesn't have the tendancy to look back, but are their any other things I should keep an eye out for? He is a beautiful standard grey with some AMAZING facial markings. He is simply spectaculare, he has also, just recently, started loosing hair on his head. He's healthy, and we though it was stress, but it doesn't appear to be pulled out...almost liek it was rubbed off. He also rolls in his food. Bathes in it really and he doesn't groom often, we have to clean him with a warm damp rag. He has a tendancy to "skunk" at random as well, but is wonderfuly bonded and not afraid of anything. It has always concerned me that he likes to lay on his back like that.

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#86583 - 03/17/06 10:50 PM Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders [Re: ]
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
dimitri, who i believe is in his teenager stage, is very very very active. i can get him to stop for a while and he'll just sit there, i can turn him over on his back and love on him and stuff...but then he'll get bored and he just GOES. and goes. and goes. and goes. it's hard to have him out in an unsecured room because he doesn't have the sense to stay with me. he falls in the cage a lot and it always looks like he's nodding or swaying. his movements are very exaggerated. even tegan looks back, and she is not as heavily affected. their father was a real sweetie and he would let them turn him over for a tummy rub, but it wasn't as unnatural as when these babies do it. they seem to have no instict to protect their vulnerable stomach. my dog can come straight up to dimitri or whisper and they won't make a move. most of my others would at least jump back, if not crab and lunge at her. when tegan is mad at me (and therefore i might be a threat) she does not take measures to make her stomach unavailable to me.

i am trying to get some videos of them up, a few of whisper (joey stage) and some of dimitri and tegan (adult stage) since they really seem different. i'm kind of wondering if the twins will change again when they are out of their adolescent stage. i'm hoping it will be helpful to identify the condition. people that don't even know what sugar gliders are can tell there's something wrong with them...it's a pretty obvious difference. if your mom's boy seems to be able to comprehend danger, he's probably ok. if your mom got him as a joey, it will be even more obvious...whisper is floppy, wobbly, has a weak grip and sleeps a LOT. she gets really upset when she's alone. she seems to still be having issues with learning the water bottle, so i have to give her water with a syringe and very juicy fruits. i might start mixing applesauce and water together.

when these 3 get upset, they do a kind of spazz-dance. they flip out to the extreme. they become a blur and will do cartwheels, somersaults, backflips, and just keep bouncing. it's nearly impossible to keep a hold of them. it's really funny to watch, although sad.
_________________________
Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

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#86584 - 03/21/06 04:22 PM Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders [Re: ]
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
i have taken some videos of them...hopefully this will help people identify the condition. please direct comments to the thread i started in glider talk.

http://neekitz.zippyvideos.com/gallery.z
_________________________
Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

Top
#86585 - 03/22/06 01:30 AM Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders [Re: ]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
Could it be that with inbreeding, they are simply showing retardation? Or a type of Downs? (as in humans?) I guess I'm not understanding what you are looking for, a name for it? Sorry, it's late, early. LOL
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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#86586 - 03/22/06 02:46 PM Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders [Re: ]
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
i just want a diagnosis. someone pointed out to me recently that there's a possibility that they have other defects, that their lifespan might be shorter or they might have a problem with an organ or something, and it might be treatable. tegan DOES have seizures, but i don't know if that's part of this issue or if it's separate, because i haven't seen it in the other two. if i can figure out what the heck they have, i will know what needs to be done to ensure they are as healthy as possible. if it doesn't have a name, it might be fun to give it a name, but i don't really know how to go about that, either.
_________________________
Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

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#86587 - 03/23/06 02:53 AM Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Being the breeder of Beth's joeys I would like to have my say in this.

I am the breeder, and it wasn't about the money. That is why Beatrice is with Kiki right now at no expense to her. I haven't sold her to anyone but am waiting to see if her joeys with Kiki's male are healthy. That way, I can sell her as a possible breeder wf or a non-breeding wf.

Since females cannot be spayed, I must know if she has the capabilities of being bred before selling her just in case the new breeder decides to later down the road. If she was a male I would neuter her and just sell her as a nonbreeder like her mate, Dante. The father of these joeys will not be able to breed anymore and is enjoying his retirement with his healthy daughter.

As for wondering why I bred her again after Dimitri and Tegan. My vet and Beth's agreed it could have been Beatrice encountering mold or something digested that brought on the condition, so when I moved into an apartment that was clean I bred her again to see if the environment was the factor in this. Beth was in agreeance with this assumption and I kept her informed when the new joeys arrived. I DID NOT breed for money! In fact, the moment I found another joey with the condition, I neutered the father, sold him with his healthy daughter, and found a home for Beatrice and Whisper.


I didn't give Beatrice to Kiki only to breed. In fact, it was Kiki's idea in the first place to try and breed her to her male. We worked things out to just see if this was an inherited trait through Beatrice and both understood this as ending with possible afflicted joeys. But, we were both curious to see if this was something in Beatrice's line, too close inbreeding, etc., which is what you would like to know too.


Edited by Dancing (03/24/06 12:04 AM)

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#86588 - 03/23/06 04:21 AM Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders [Re: ]
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR

deleted by Dancing


Edited by Dancing (03/23/06 11:55 PM)
_________________________
Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

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#86589 - 03/23/06 07:43 AM Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders [Re: ]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
That is why Beatrice is with Kiki right now at no expense to her. I haven't sold her to anyone but am waiting to see if her joeys with Kiki's male are healthy

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

There are joeys listed for sale on your site that says the mother of 2 of them is Beatrice. Is this the SAME Beatrice? Do you KNOW these joeys are in fact healthy?

As for having a mother glider and wondering IF her joeys would be normal with another male, why not just keep her and DON'T breed her? I don't see the point in chancing another poor baby glider to handicaps as severe as the joeys she's produced, regardless of what male she is with. Put her with another female and leave it at that. Why is it so important to breed this particular glider?
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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#86590 - 03/23/06 08:53 AM Re: Mentally/Functionally Handicapped Gliders [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


My site is about 2 years out of date, so the joeys pictured are actually from my normal grey female and Dante, so were perfectly healthy. We were going to change the pic to Dimitri and Tegan when they came, but never got around to it, so the info and pics don't match up.

As for the breeding, I was going to keep Beatrice from breeding, but Kiki and I, as well as others, would like to know a little bit more about this affliction...like how it's passed down. We know it can't come from just the father because he has had all his joeys from another female be healthy. Now we will find out if it came from Beatrice, or from both Dante and Beatrice combined. That way if it came from Dante and Beatrice combined, we will know not to mix these lines again in the future. It is merely out of gaining insite into this situation that she is being bred. All joeys that come out of it will be given the best of care.



Edited by Dancing (03/23/06 11:58 PM)

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