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#875466 - 12/01/09 10:21 PM When switching diets, you must do so gradually
Jackie_Chans_Mom Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/01/07
Posts: 2511
Loc: Texas
I hear this a lot, but have never once practiced it. I know some, though, who are very strict about it.

EVERY glider who comes into my home gets fed my diet immediately. I do not slowly switch over. Many of the gliders that come here are rescues, and their past diet was terrible. I will not slowly switch from terrible, that just makes no sense and is not very kind IMO. However, I do have many gliders that are not rescues and have always had a great diet, it just isn't MY diet. These, too, I switch immediately.

My thoughts? Gliders are created to be foragers. They eat what is available. Their natural flora and digestive processes are created to handle many different foods from day to day. They don't have sensitive digestive systems. Rather, they have quite adept digestive processes.

My diet is not the same thing every day, so the gliders have a lot of variety in their diet. Some days the staple food, some days an omelet or chicken breast instead. Some days fresh fruits, other days natural or fresh fruit juices. Some days raw fresh veggies, other days cooked veggies or juice. Some days they get a hard food, some days they don't. With all this variety, I have never had one glider get ill.

When I travel and stay with glider friends, the gliders that traveled with me get fed whatever diet my host/hostess feeds for the night or nights that we are visiting. Sometimes when traveling, they don't get any specific diet at all, but rather whatever safe foods I can pick up at the local market. Again, I have never had a single issue with stress or tummy trouble related to switching diets for one day or for the remainder of their lives.

I have also never had a single glider get ill from the immediate diet change. Never. That's a lot of gliders switched over immediately, and not one issue. So, I tend to believe that the odds of there being an issue with it are very small. I personally know of two gliders who DID get ill shortly after coming to their new home and being put on a new diet, but BOTH of those gliders had very serious health issues and their tummy trouble was just another symptom of a MUCH larger issue. Both gliders passed away after only a short time in their new home, and neither necropsy indicated ANY digestive issues stemming from a quick change in diet.

Could it be that this is true of the other stories we have heard? Could it be that those gliders who get ill with a diet change also had much more serious issues to begin with?

So, where did this advice to switch slowly come from? What is the thought process? Is it just that they may get an upset stomach, or is there some other reason for suggesting the gradual switch?

I do not switch gradually. Never have seen compelling evidence that it is necessary. I have, however, seen plenty of gliders that needed a good diet and quick. I guess what I am saying is that I personally have seen much more compelling evidence in support of an immediate change than in support of a gradual change. But, I would love to hear from others.
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#875483 - 12/01/09 10:47 PM Re: When switching diets, you must do so gradually [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
eden
Unregistered


I myself never had a problem switching any gliders from HPW to Priscillas nor did I have any problems putting my rescues onto Priscillas who came to me eating absolute garbage and weren't on any real diet at all. I did however notice that almost all of them had runny poops for a few days when I switched from Priscillas to the Mix and Match diet (I made a few modifications to the diet though). I feel like my slightly altered version of the mix and match diet is a much richer diet than any of the other diets that are available and it caused them to have an upset digestive system. I also do not really switch gradually for the following reasons...

1. I can't make up a whole batch of another diet just to switch a new glider for a few days, especially if that glider was a rescue and unexpected.
2. I have never had a problem switching anyways
3. most of the time the diet they were on when they come here is completely unacceptable and I switch them immediately for their safety.

I agree that I don't believe they have sensitive digestive systems. I think a change in diet that is drastically different from what they are used to, such as in the case of the modified mix and match diet, can cause temporary runny stools but there was no other issues such as lethargy so I am not concerned about it. I think one of the issues with switching gradually, even though it would be a temporary problem, is that the ratios and nutritional balance can be thrown off by mixing two different diets and they can also pick and choose what they want to eat and leave the rest which could also lead to deficiencies.
Dogs and cats are known for having sensitivities to diet changes but I believe that has a lot to do with the fact that they have been so domesticated to a commercial diet which usually has more fillers and by-products than veggies or good quality protein sources. Gliders are only a few generations in captivity and I think you are completely right that they are still physiologically adapted to a varied diet that is made up of natural foods which would make their digestive systems much more resilient.


Edited by eden (12/01/09 11:04 PM)

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#875486 - 12/01/09 10:50 PM Re: When switching diets, you must do so gradually [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
konotashi Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 4061
Loc: Mesa, AZ
Interesting - I didn't have a choice when I switched my three from BML to HPW. They barely had a day's worth left of BML. The first night, I chopped the block of BML I had left and drizzled the unfrozen HPW on it, and the next day when they were both frozen, I fed the rest of the BML and some HPW. The next night they only got HPW.

I don't really have any feedback for you, but maybe it was assumed that gliders need to have their diet switched gradually since so many other animals get digestive issues when they're switched? Just a thought.
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#875506 - 12/01/09 11:24 PM Re: When switching diets, you must do so gradually [Re: konotashi]
GoGoGliders
Unregistered


I have never had a problem either and when I traveled across country my gliders got whatever the hosts had or the closest thing to PP I could whip up....

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#875541 - 12/02/09 12:43 AM Re: When switching diets, you must do so gradually [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
I have to agree, no gradual changes here either. When dealing with rescues, Lord only knows what they were being fed before and there is no sense in feeding them the same garbage when you know your diet is a healthy diet.

Although I have had a few get picky about the new food, that only lasts a day or two. Usually I have to over feed them for the first couple of weeks because they attack the new food like they are starving. (and this is even the "fluffy" ones) I've not had any diet related problems from switching them either.
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The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#875567 - 12/02/09 05:38 AM Re: When switching diets, you must do so gradually [Re: Dancing]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
I agree that for adult gliders, gradual changes are not necessary. However, I do feel it necessary to caution with the following: For joeys being hand raised, a gradual change is definitely necessary. Rapid change of diet in hand raised joeys can cause severe bloating leading to veterinary care worried
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#875659 - 12/02/09 10:35 AM Re: When switching diets, you must do so gradually [Re: sugarglidersuz]
Tish84 Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 08/07/09
Posts: 1855
Loc: Orlando, FL
I gradually switched my girls over to HPW from BML before Kingsley moved in with them. They already had diarrhea issues before and I didn't want to chance it.

When Taiyou comes to me, it's going to be an immediate change because I don't have the vitamins to make Priscilla's diet to gradually switch him over and I know she only sells them in large quantities. I'm praying for no problems.
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#875778 - 12/02/09 03:37 PM Re: When switching diets, you must do so gradually [Re: Tish84]
Akane Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 09/20/09
Posts: 433
Loc: Iowa
Even animals with very adaptive digestive systems need to have the right bacteria in their digestive tract to handle each food they are given. If the animal has been fed a variety of foods that's not a problem. If the animal has had one food it's whole life and you switch to an entirely different food or even worse a big mix of foods you can cause digestive problems. Combined with stress that could go very badly. Maybe not this time, maybe not next time, but if we take 100 gliders and do it we might end up with a few that get seriously ill. I would think making 1 glider seriously ill is enough of a reason to limit that risk.

In a rescue situation you really have to do the best you can and I've been there with several species of animals. If you can't feed the same diet then you can start with a restricted diet. For dogs and cats that means something like boiled rice and 1 meat source. For guinea pigs that means 1 type of hay and 1 vegetable for vit c. For something like gliders that would mean feed only the main part of the diet for a few days and then introduce 1 fruit, vegetable, or other food for a few days. Keep going until they are eating a variety. I'm sure a few days without a full mix of fruits and veggies is not going to do any more harm to a glider that has already been on a bad diet. Just the main portions of the diets most people on here feed would probably be a huge improvement in many cases.
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#884722 - 12/20/09 02:12 PM Re: When switching diets, you must do so gradually
Monster
Unregistered


I am making this post in response to another thread where it was indicated that the old standard of "changing diet slowly" was an old wives tale:

Many of you will remember the ordeal I went through with Fawkes' lymphoma the Summer of '08 - Just one month after Fawkes died, his twin brother, Stewie, died suddenly of what appeared to be a bacterial infection in his intestines - the necropsy was somewhat inconclusive because it was several hours between the time he died & when I got him to the vet. While Fawkes & Stewie's deaths were unrelated, they both had one thing in common - their necropsy both showed that they were "morbidly obese". Now this was upsetting to me because while they were large gliders (Fawkes 157, Stewie 165), they were not the largest I'd seen, and I certainly wouldn't have called them "morbidly obese". But, I had 3 other boys (Cino, Seti, and Little), all sons of Fawkes or Stewie, who were in the same weight class!

So this question of "obese or not" had me asking what I could do to help with weight loss for the sake of these boys. At the time, they were on Priscilla's diet, which gets some form of protein each night (rotates between egg, chicken, and mealies). My guys never ate the chicken but would always eat the egg and mealies – in typical glider fashion, they picked out what they liked. So I spoke to my vet & to Priscilla & they both said not to cut the protein, but to cut the oatmeal. Instead of giving ¾ cup per batch, I was to switch to 1/4 cup per batch. So I did this the next time I made up my glider food.

About 3 weeks had passed since I started feeding the new “reduced oatmeal” Priscilla’s – it was now time for their monthly weigh-in. The results were shocking! The small gliders that didn’t need to lose weight (Isis, Zoe, & Monster), either didn’t lose weight or only lost a gram – BUT the larger boys lost about 5g and Little lost 13g!!! I immediately called my vet & told her what happened. Of course she said that was way too much & at that rate we would be compromising their liver health. She suggested I immediately increase the oatmeal up to ½ cup, which I did. I then started weighing every week.

Everyone stabilized at a normal weight (for them) except Little – Little kept LOSING weight! I took him to the vet – we ran fecals, UA and found nothing. Then Little started to become weak – he would not come out of his pouch to eat, drink or go to the bathroom. I had to remove him from his colony into a hospital cage. I had to start hand feeding him – at Dr. Tristan’s recommendation; I fed him corn guts because of the good vegetable protein as well as his Priscilla’s mix and mealies. Little got to the point where he could barely stand, he couldn’t hold food, he shook constantly, and he could barely chew. We had him on meds just in case it was bacterial & also something for his liver. We also did a blood draw, which again showed NOTHING. It was a general consensus among the vets involved that this was metabolic and was caused by the recent and sudden change in diet. They said metabolic issues such as this are seen in cats & ferrets & the trick is stabilizing the metabolism.

After about a month, Little had gotten down to about 78g – from 165g! I was going to lose him. Dr. Tristan suggested I switch him to HPW for the types of protein in the diet. I was willing to try anything. Peggy rushed me enough to get him started. Within a week Little started gaining back. It took about 2 months of hand feeding, medicating, and special care for this little one. He is now happy, healthy & living with Sekwaf (another little glider many of you know).

Hopefully Mommy’s error didn’t damage his liver shakehead

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#884735 - 12/20/09 02:44 PM Re: When switching diets, you must do so gradually [Re: ]
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey
I was confused about one thing in that story, so please clarify. If I read it correctly you seem to be saying that a slow change is better. that the problems that occurred were from a quick change...is that correct? if so, then at the bottom you mention a diet change to HPW that seems as thought it brought changes in one week.

wondering if I read this correctly and if a change is needed then over how long a period of time should a person make the change? over a week? month?

I just wanted clarification for the sake of other people reading. (I have my own opinions on diet changes.)

thanks smile
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#884740 - 12/20/09 03:01 PM Re: When switching diets, you must do so gradually [Re: JillMarie]
Monster
Unregistered


I'm sorry if I explained that poorly - Little wasn't completely onto the exact HPW diet for at least a month as I was still hand feeding the corn guts, mealies, and a few moist oats from the Priscilla's - I added a syringe feeding of the HPW MIX twice per day, and that seemed to be what made him start gaining weight again as it was the only change made at that time. So yes, the switch to HPW was done slowly.

It was explained to me that it was the type of protein in the HPW & that somehow it is absorbed or used differently than proteins found in other forms. However, this was not meant to be a discussion about HPW.

If changing diets quickly has worked for you and your gliders, great - I've done it too in the past with no issue. I'm just saying that this is what can happen and this is why I won't do it again.

If I know of a risk & I don't tell others about it, that makes me a big 'ol jerk...

*Edited to say that this post was merged from another as I didn't know this thread was here (that's what I get for being gone so long) - Before this happened to Little, I would have agreed with everyone who posted above - what happened doesn't make a lot of sense - it's a lot to wrap your head around, but it happened, so the risk must be there.


Edited by Monster (12/20/09 05:53 PM)
Edit Reason: see note

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#884885 - 12/21/09 01:47 AM Re: When switching diets, you must do so gradually [Re: ]
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey
THANKS!
it is not really that it was explained "poorly" I just wanted to make sure I had understood.
I didnt say I switch diets quickly, just said I have my own opinions. see how easy it is to misunderstand things in the written word?

I do agree though that sharing information is great! Sharing experiences like yours is one way we can learn. Practical experience is the best way to learn I think.
thanks again for sharing
smile
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#885000 - 12/21/09 11:16 AM Re: When switching diets, you must do so gradually [Re: JillMarie]
eden
Unregistered


Gina, thank you very much for that detailed example! that is definitely something to learn from for all of us. I just had a question though, it seems to me like the problem wasn`t so much a change in diet but a sudden change in an ingredient with a significant effect on the metabolic rate the overall diet could be digested at, do you think that was the case? Also, do you think there may have been some risk factors that made that reaction unique to that particular Glider and possibly others with similar conditions?

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#886875 - 12/27/09 08:30 PM Re: When switching diets, you must do so gradually [Re: ]
Monster
Unregistered


Sorry it took me so long to get back to this thread (Holidays & all)…

Quote:
it seems to me like the problem wasn`t so much a change in diet but a sudden change in an ingredient with a significant effect on the metabolic rate the overall diet could be digested at


Absolutely I agree, but don’t you also agree that the same effect could be had with an outright diet change. Consider what a diet change is doing, it changes the sources of proteins, minerals, etc – therefore you are inherently changing the rate at which the body metabolizes them. For example: Vit A/Beta-carotene, Coral Calcium/Calcium Bicarbonate, Hemp/Flax/Soy as a protein source.

As to whether Little had any risk factors prior to the diet change, I don’t know. When his father (Stewie) died suddenly, the whole colony was vet checked including fecal float/smear and UA. They all came back clean, but I think we all know that even testing can be deceiving if you don’t get the timing right. He was tested again when he started showing symptoms – fecal float/smear, UA, & finally a full blood panel - Still nothing. There was nothing to indicate that he had something going on prior to the change, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that there wasn’t.

However, if Little were ill or had a hidden condition & received a sudden diet change which exacerbated the issue, isn’t that just further reason not to make sudden changes? How many times have you heard that gliders hide their illnesses? How many times have your gliders proven that to be true?

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#887312 - 12/29/09 12:50 AM Re: When switching diets, you must do so gradually [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
jacknsally Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/30/05
Posts: 3224
Loc: North Fort Worth - TX
Originally Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom


So, where did this advice to switch slowly come from? What is the thought process? Is it just that they may get an upset stomach, or is there some other reason for suggesting the gradual switch?



The theory probably stemmed from how other animals handle quick changes in foods. Many cats & dogs don't handle quick changes in their regular diet. I see it daily with just one meal of a new kibble being offered. Though I've seen many who handle change without any issues.

Before I rescued, I did gradually feed a new diet when I got a new glider but when it came to feeding rescues, that was not usually possible. After my experiences with them handling the quick change in food positively, I no longer practiced the changing gradually.

I have only had 1 glider (Zero) who may have "not" handled the switching of diet quickly. Though with the serious condition & internal damage, the vet feels it was unlikely and his organs were a time bomb. It's one of those moments we'll never know and there was no replicating what he previously was eating. So Zero would fall in to that category of, I'm sure even with gradually switching his diet, he would have still had the health issue that lead to his death.
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#887397 - 12/29/09 10:00 AM Re: When switching diets, you must do so gradually [Re: jacknsally]
SeemsFamiliar Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 05/04/09
Posts: 183
Loc: Jonesboro, AR
You can only get nutrients from what you can digest. I know that dogs and cats have very short digestive systems, and it can become very obvious when they have digestive issues.

Some vegetables and foods can be extremely difficult to digest. Animals have different coping mechanisms for this. (i.e. rabbits produce a particular kind of enzyme rich pellet which they eat again to be able to digest their food better)

Some foods may have their digestibility increased by processing: ground corn (easier) vs. whole grain corn (extremely difficult).

So it makes sense that a diet consisting of a protein of egg or chicken is going to be much easier to digest than a vegetable protein like soy. And a ground vegetable protein may be easier than an unprocessed vegetable protein.

Also the digestive enzymes needed to digest different types of food may be very different or needed in different amounts. Foods or reproduction of bacteria and enzymes may cause much different amount of gasses to be produced. The acidity level as well as fiber factors in how quickly that the foods may move through the digestive tract and how long the glider has to absorb nutrients before the foods pass and whatever left is lost.

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#887437 - 12/29/09 11:33 AM Re: When switching diets, you must do so gradually [Re: SeemsFamiliar]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Most often when a rescue came to me, the previous diet was unknown or totally NOT something I would feed an animal, much less a glider so they go immediately on my diet. I've never had any medical issues with doing the immediate switch. I've had some that dove into the new food like they haven't eaten in months and had others that were picky and not sure about the new stuff but no medical problems resulting from diet change.

With my diet, I also have "junk food night" a couple times per month. "Junk food" is the term we use but not because the food is bad for them, just because it is different than their daily diet. (Eggs instead of the staple mix, different variety of fruits and vegies than the norm) I've never seen any medical issues (loose stools, constipation etc) from "junk food night" either.

I'm sure there are some gliders that may have problems though. Because each glider is different, each has the potential to react different. I have 7 dogs and finding ONE food that all 7 could/would eat without digestive issues was a challenge. 2 of my dogs are very sensitive to food change and have to be switched gradually, the other 5 will eat anything and everything without trouble (one ate half a box turtle, shell and all!)
_________________________
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Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#887463 - 12/29/09 12:34 PM Re: When switching diets, you must do so gradually [Re: Dancing]
eden
Unregistered


Thank you very much Gina, I have a little rescue that came to me eating Darcy's diet and was just under 100grams. He is an old glider and has suffered long term HLP for years and also had some sort of accident with his jaw which left him with a deformed jaw and an extremely loose lower incisor (We tried surgery but the bone has grown around the tooth and root in such a way that it cannot be removed). I began feeding him priscillas diet when he came to me and he has been doing really well, he is much more active and eats better. He is also getting pain medication to help. However, even after all of the improvement I have seen he has lost 10 grams in the months since I have had him. The vet suggested it was from his previous diet keeping more fat on him than he would have naturally had but it still worried me. We are in the process of seeking out a new diet for him and keeping a very close eye on him but your situation sounded sort of familiar and I wondered if it might give me some clues as to what is going on with my little Ernie. It makes a lot of sense that the change in diet to something with a very different nutritional analysis and ingredient list would cause his system some difficulties in adjusting to how he metabolizes it. I imagine his elderly age would also be a factor in not being able to adjust as well as a younger glider would. This has been such an enormously educational thread! thank you

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#887468 - 12/29/09 12:52 PM Re: When switching diets, you must do so gradually [Re: ]
suggiemom1980 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 13744
Loc: Vincennes, IN, USA
When I switched all of my gliders from Priscilla Price's diet to HPW, I fed the old diet one night and the new one the next night. No problems at all.

I've had rescues come to me that had been eating sugared cereal, human food (seasoned meat, powdered donuts, etc.) and fruit flavored parrot pellets. Every rescue I've gotten, has been switched immediately to the HPW diet, with no problems.

I agree, this is a great thread!
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