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#902592 - 02/05/10 06:17 AM A tale of two gliders....
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
A few people knew about Flip's 'mating', or 'dominance' wound-not sure what to call this, with what my vet thinks caused it-dominance would probably be it, but more on that later...

Two gliders went to the vet today. I'll do the 'easy' one first...

Tues/wed were cage cleaning and nail trim days. We do this every other week at my house..among other things its a really good time to take a close up look at your gliders in the bright light of day-which can show up issues you won't see in artificial light or at night. Anyway, I was done with Clotho's nails (and she is not a lady about it-swears the whole time! No kidding) and was watching her eat her after trim yogie (to make it all better)...and as I'm watching her maw on this thing like it's going to try and run away, I notice the top front of her mouth doesn't look quite right. frown In fact, one of her upper front teeth is 'missing'! Now, this happened with Riker a few month's back...turns out it broke up in there, and I had to have the remainder removed, as it was necrotic. Well....guess what? Somehow, Clotho did the same thing! Wish I knew what was causing this contagion of missing front teeth in my house...all i can say is it's NOT the food or environment unless I just have klutzy gliders smashing their faces into stuff. shakehead Better news so far for Clotho though...the part of the tooth that is up in the jaw doesn't appear to be dead/necrotic, so the vet thinks it'll heal over and she'll be just fine. She's on Clindamycin for the next two weeks. Of course I take her back in if any signs of swelling, discomfort, etc.

Second vet visitor: Flip...her bad issues started later that night. Not that she didn't have some to start with (non life threatening prior to this).

First issue: She came to me with what was thought to be repeat sinus infections. After observing her for several months I came to the conclusion (hammered home during a particularly bad windstorm) that it wasn't sinus-it was her lungs. Suspicion confirmed at the vet yesterday-I've got an asthmatic glider. She's on an anti-inflammatory now, and is to be on one every time she has an issue-I have pics of her lungs and their occlusion from yesterday's Xrays, but my computer had a panic attack of some kind, so I won't be able to upload them until tomorrow. vet said her sinuses are beautiful-no infection. When she has an 'attack' though-which stress will aggravate (think nail trims), her nose turns very dark reddish/blue-which can also happen with a bad sinus problem, but not in this case. Thought I was going to lose her during one bad windstorm last fall-she was hanging over the side of the shelf in her cage, her nose bluish, sides just heaving trying to breathe, but I stayed with her, filtered her air, and she came through it. Made note to bring up with the vet. For now the vet wants to try metacam/benadryl with her as needed (and for the next few days consistently due to the stress she and her body is under at the moment)...if it doesn't provide enough relief for her we'll be going with an inhaler type setup (still not sure exactly how that will work, but I trust Dr. Harris COMPLETELY).

Flip: Issue #2: For about 10 months, I've had a sneaking suspicion. Those who know me know I've had some of the oddest issues to hit gliders. Well, I also have one of the absolute rarest conditions in a living, otherwise healthy glider. What are the odds of pulling the handle and hitting the 'jackpot' twice? In this, remote. Yet...

My Cmdr Riker has a Non-Functional Thyroid. He was the first glider we know of in the U.S. to undergo the T4 Thyroid panel (blood test). It came back 'below detectable levels' for the T4 hormone-it's what controls weight/energy levels, etc. It's not a life threatening condition unless it causes a glider to self mutilate (as the second glider who has this did), although it will catch up with them eventually. Now, her thyroid was working when I got her-she was a normal, healthy weight and active. That gradually changed, though. I'm going to list Riker's symptoms first...then Flip's...

Cmdr Riker:
-Overweight but barely eats
-Little to No activity-may go eat/drink and then just returns to the pouch to sleep
-Overgrooming on top of head
-Dry, Flaky ear edges that respond to nothing (humidity, oils, etc)
-Odd generalized hair loss on the body-may be patchy but is not overgrooming and in no particular pattern or area
-thickened nails

Flip:
-Became overweight and started eating little
-Little to no activity...eat/drink and return to pouch
-Overgrooming on top of the head (attributed to "sinus" issues when she came...only she doesn't have sinus issues....
-Dry, Flaky ear edges that respond to nothing
-Odd, generalized, body wide hair loss in large patches
-nails began to thicken

....see a pattern, here? Again, what are the odds I got TWO of them?

Unfortunately, you CAN NOT START a glider on L-Thyroxine hormone as a 'try out' to see if it works...once on that med, they are on it for life. Every day of their life, forever. If it wasn't the issue, it is now, because the thyroid will never produce it again and you just destroyed a healthy glider's thyroid, and put them on a med they could die without--so that T4 panel HAS to be run first.

Well, we'll find out-her T4 panel went out today. vet is eager for the results, as am I...I'll let you all know when they come back.
vet said "at least it won't really cost any more to treat her"-at which I had to laugh...X more pills a month...I mix my own. vet taught me how to crush the tabs up with a mortar and pestle to the right consistency and mix with the right amount of mixer to make Riker's meds-which I do for him monthly.

Flip: Issue #3...started just over 2 weeks ago. Went to give her and Snuggles a treat, and noticed a hole in her back! upset Not bad or deep, thankfully, but it's the second glider Snuggles has done this to, so now he just can't have another cagemate. So she was pulled, combo of neosporin and silvodine cream put on the wound daily, and oral Clindamycin for 10 days. It covered over with a scab, and seemed to be healing up..until a few days ago when the scabbing started to go out of control. Was debating on taking her in to see Dr. Harris, or see if it shed, when she made the decision for me-I really didn't think she'd make it through Wed night cry She was sitting listless on the bottom of her cage and wouldn't even take a treat-didn't protest when I scooted her in her pouch, either. It was evident she hadn't groomed. I had to go to work (ER vet could NOT handle this) and my completely AWESOME BF sat with her ALL NIGHT with her on him, hand feeding her and keeping her warm smile She made it to Thursday morning, and off she, I, and Clotho went to see Dr Harris for an 11am appointment.

Clotho was in/out with me, but Flip stayed the day for Xrays, bloodwork and labs. vet called me at about 3:30 to come get her. I've outlined the results above for the most part. Other than that, Dr. Harris:

Partially debrided the wound. It's still open (I have pics, but again, can't upload yet), because it got large and deep enough under the scab she felt the incision would be too large, and with her Immune system under so much strain from the other issues, may not heal or be more than her body could take, so another oral antibiotic was added to the mix, Clavamox, and we watch, remove any developing scab, and hope it closes. Added: (knew I forgot something)-Dr. Harris thinks it's because of her other issues the wound didn't heal as it should have and went crazy like this-her immune system is on overload frown )

This also speaks to why the wound may have been inflicted in the first place. Dr. Harris thinks its a colony mentality on the part of Snuggles-he sensed the weakness in Flip and tried to "drive her from the colony"-which makes sense. Only in a captive situation-she had nowhere to go and couldn't get away. One of the many ways their wild instincts can conflict with the limits we artificially set with caged gliders. Their cage is by no means small...but it's nothing compared to being in the wild open.

If I'm forgetting anything, I'll add it later with the pics...in any case, hopefully she's on her way to recovery.

One more note is that earlier tonight I got a text that she fell or rolled in her food dish-it's all over her. Have pics of that, too. So we also get a 'bath' when I get home from work.... dunno

All this after losing Cher not long ago. frown

For the newbies: One day vet total for FLIP alone: $353.66 including the Xrays, labs, anesthesia, exam, debridement, and Clavamox (I had the rest already). Cher's was $211 recently-so in what, just over a month, total vet costs are over $565.00-this is where that vet fund or saved aside credit card comes in handy.

Hopefully she is now on the road to recovery and health. I'll update as I get the pics and more info.


Edited by Xfilefan (02/05/10 07:18 AM)
Edit Reason: Added statement
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#902609 - 02/05/10 07:28 AM Re: A tale of two gliders.... [Re: Xfilefan]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Wanted to add: normally, I would have taken her in before this for the bloodwork and xrays for these issues life threatening or not-in fact had an appt twice and had to take another glider instead that WAS having a life threatening issue.I have spent literally thousands on vet bills-over $7,000 just on Cmdr Riker. I spent over half of last year on unemployment, and maxed 4 credit cards (including my care credit) in order to make sure they all made it through-my finances are still not recovered and cards are again maxed-my vet trusts my judgement on when a glider absolutely can't wait, or when it can and while this was far from ideal, it was necessary and I have years of experience to stand behind my decision to wait IN THIS INSTANCE-If I ever have ANY doubt whatsoever-the glider goes in. vet agreed it didn't hurt her to wait for the diagnostics until the wound complicated matters. Felt I should say something on that-I'd never recommend putting off the necessary treatment or diagnostics without a vet to back you up and a lot of experience, and a vet you CAN go to on a moment's notice, and I had discussed Flip on other glider's visits. frown Just want their thread to be a learning experience for all, and not a why didn't she go sooner-that's out of the way.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#902623 - 02/05/10 07:52 AM Re: A tale of two gliders.... [Re: Xfilefan]
glidrz5 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 06/13/01
Posts: 7297
Loc: Quincy, IL
((((((HUGS)))))))) Jen I worried all day about what was happening with the babies yesterday. I tried calling last night, but I think you hung up on me rather than answering the phone because it just suddenly went dead. I'm glad to hear that everyone is home now and in your very capable hands.
_________________________
Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be



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#902635 - 02/05/10 08:20 AM Re: A tale of two gliders.... [Re: glidrz5]
suggiemom1980 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 13746
Loc: Vincennes, IN, USA
Jen, I'm so sorry your babies and you are going through so much! I'll send lots of prayers for all of you!

P.S. Kudos to you for having the resources for vet care!

Folks, if you don't have an emergency vet fund now, start on one! If you save $10 here and $20 there, it adds up faster than you think! My vet will also let me put money on credit with her, so when I go in, the bill is partially, if not wholly, paid.

Without an emergency vet fund, credit cards or an understanding vet who knows you and your history with them & will let you charge, your glider could suffer and die in certain situations!
_________________________
Connie

812-890-9734, 24/7 Emergencies/Joey issues

SmallWorldSuggies

"The greater the challenge, the sweeter the reward"

"Glide free :rbridge: Silly "Ozball" Ozzie. You left us 11/21/12..way too soon. You're forever loved, remembered, missed."

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#902666 - 02/05/10 09:30 AM Re: A tale of two gliders.... [Re: suggiemom1980]
Cora Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 6574
Loc: Kilgore, Texas
praying for your babies Jen!! I think we are running a race on vet bills. I will be spending 800 this month and Spencer has spent thousands of dollars over the past 3 years! I too have had several weird issues.......... And hmmmmmmmmmm that thyroid thing and Sugar(She has all those symptoms except the dry ear edges) and well they can draw blood when they have her "out" to pull her incisors in a few weeks and I will ask for a thyroid panal!
beef up your vet bills.........these fuzzfaces can be expensive!
_________________________
USDA Licensed Breeder
903-808-1142

http://www.freewebs.com/angelfish_37/index.htm

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#902671 - 02/05/10 09:43 AM Re: A tale of two gliders....UPDATE [Re: Cora]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Add a necropsy to that. cry

Flip passed away in my boyfriend's hands about 5am. She loved sitting on him. She just went to sleep and didn't wake up. She was an all around SWEET little girl-I'll miss her alot cry


Edited by Xfilefan (02/05/10 09:44 AM)
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#902682 - 02/05/10 10:11 AM Re: A tale of two gliders....UPDATE [Re: Xfilefan]
JamieInWA
Unregistered


Oh no! I am so sorry for your loss. frown

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#902732 - 02/05/10 12:23 PM Re: A tale of two gliders....UPDATE [Re: ]
Feather Online   sleep
Administrator

Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 12177
Loc: Wisconsin
Jen,

I am so sorry to hear about all the health problems your gliders are having. I hope you are able to get them resolved.

The passing of little Flip is another shocker. May your memories of little Flip comfort you in the days to come.

Glide Free little Flip :rbridge:
_________________________
Kimberley
Feathers-Sweetie, Sklyar Blue, Mister Peanut, Big Mack & Ibo
Fur-Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Micheal, Stevie, Cho & Maharet :bb: T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon :wfb: TY, TJ, Khayman & T'Pring :rtmo: O'Ryan :leu:
Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker and the rest of my babies over the :rbridge:


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#902844 - 02/05/10 05:01 PM Re: A tale of two gliders....UPDATE [Re: Feather]
Cora Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 6574
Loc: Kilgore, Texas
I am so sorry. Lit a candle for Flip!
_________________________
USDA Licensed Breeder
903-808-1142

http://www.freewebs.com/angelfish_37/index.htm

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#902919 - 02/05/10 08:17 PM Re: A tale of two gliders....UPDATE [Re: Cora]
glidrz5 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 06/13/01
Posts: 7297
Loc: Quincy, IL
Jen, I'm so sorry about little Flip. My heart just sank when you called and told me.
_________________________
Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be



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#902929 - 02/05/10 08:40 PM Re: A tale of two gliders....UPDATE [Re: glidrz5]
RiverStone
Unregistered


I know you, Jen; you did absolutely everything you could have done for Flip and she's lived a longer and happier life that she ever would have without you. She would have spend a lonely life if you'd not helped me find Snug for her, and she would probably had passed much sooner if you'd not been willing to care for her when I no longer could. If anyone feels badly, itís me for not being able to give her more of what she needed or having had her breathing difficulties figured out sooner. I'm immensely grateful to you for all you've done, and I can't possibly thank you enough.

It's strange to think that the reason I came here to begin with and the reason I've made some really good friends is no longer alive; it feels very much like the end of a chapter of my life.

I'm sorry for your loss, as well as my own. It seems heartbreaking that her death should come so quickly on the heels of Cherís; I can only hope that it will be the last one for quite a while. hug2

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#902944 - 02/05/10 09:14 PM Re: A tale of two gliders....UPDATE [Re: Xfilefan]
ozzi Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 3201
Loc: Sedona, AZ
cry upset I am so very sorry for your loss of Flip Jen upset cry
gangel :rbridge: Glide Free Flip :rbridge: gangel
_________________________
Pat
You have not lived until you have done something for someone who can never repay you.....Unknown

Rest in Peace our little sweet friends that have crossed over the "Rainbow Bridge".
I miss you gangel Boo-Boo, Lucy, BJ, and Fivel gangel

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#903040 - 02/06/10 12:57 AM Re: A tale of two gliders....UPDATE [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Quote:
I am so sorry to hear about all the health problems your gliders are having. I hope you are able to get them resolved


That is the expected when dealing with mill bred gliders/rescues. Flip was mill bred-all but one of my gliders are/have been mill bred or rescued mill bred, with one being the joey of a mill bred glider. These gliders tend to have issues more than average-and that's okay. Flip has had issues all of her life.

Quote:
having had her breathing difficulties figured out sooner
You and me both-but I have never seen a diagnosed case of an asthmatic glider, either-took time for that to even occur to me at all. But we live and learn, and maybe Flip's experience will help another glider down the road-it's why we share these stories and information. hug2

I have Flip's necropsy results, and will post them in a while (at work, and I want it quiet so I can think when I do that), then update this thread with it. I can say I surprised the vet when I called this morning to tell her-she didn't think she was that critical either-goes to show how well our guys hide their illnesses.

I also will post when the results of her T4 panel come back-she may be gone but it is still useful information, as so few gliders have had it done at all. The problem may be a bit more common than we think, but it's so new a field with gliders that there isn't much there yet.

Tonight all of my gliders are acting off-Mr Snuggles got to see her before she went in for necropsy and say goodbye-he climbed in with her and tried to wake her up...then went back to his own pouch upset, and is subdued tonight-she was part of their world for a long time, and all of them feel her absence.

Goodbye Miss Flip-you were loved and will be missed. I'll see you again at the Bridge one day, sweet girl. In the meantime, be happy, play in the Bridge's green grass and warm sun, and forget the problems your little body had here, because they're all gone now. :rbridge:

The Rainbow Bridge poem:
http://rainbowsbridge.com/Poem.htm


Edited by Xfilefan (02/06/10 01:36 AM)
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#903060 - 02/06/10 02:17 AM Re: A tale of two gliders....UPDATE [Re: Xfilefan]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Flip's necropsy post is in health as instructions say to post, but wanted to put it in her thread also:

Quote:
Dr. Harris did a necropsy on Flip today...we knew she had asthma (via Xray on 02.05.10), a dominance wound on the back of her neck, and likely hypothyroidism (T4 panel is still pending) but none of them seemed enough to kill her. Flip was approximately 7-8 years of age at her death on 02.06.10 at 5 a.m.

About 2 hours before her death, she came up soaking wet on her underside from chin to tail with no indication where it came from. Possibility of food or drink thought of, but nothing was disturbed, so the idea was discarded.

Results of necropsy are: that the fluid on her underside was from her lungs. She had Pulmonary Edema-a very large buildup of fluid in the chest cavity around the lungs, secondary to asthma, and there was also foam in the lungs, indicating cause of death was technically drowning from the large amount of fluid. All other organs were in good shape with a small amount of fatty tissue present in both the lungs and liver, but not enough to cause death, and likely from the weight issue thought to be caused by an underactive thyroid, which may have resolved with treatment.

T4 panel results are still pending, and although it was not her cause of death, that and the wound likely contributed by overloading her immune system.

Flip was a mill bred glider.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#903524 - 02/07/10 06:12 AM Re: A tale of two gliders....UPDATE [Re: Xfilefan]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Oh Jen, I'm so VERY sorry cry My thoughts and prayers are with you hug2 hug2 hug2

:rbridge: Glide Free, Flip :rbridge:
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#903527 - 02/07/10 06:31 AM Re: A tale of two gliders....UPDATE [Re: sugarglidersuz]
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey
Jen, I am sorry for your loss...but want to thank you for sharing all this as it must have been hard to do. But we all learn from this and I thank you for it.
Hugs and Prayers sent your way
_________________________
:grey: Bosom Buddy Creations:grey:
^website link wink

Remember that God Loves You!

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