Sugar Glider Community Calendar

Please click here to see larger view
Articles
More coming soon!!
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Featured Member
Registered: 04/23/16
Posts: 48
Last 10 Posts
Should breeding pairs ever be separated?
by Feather
Today at 01:18 PM
Introducing Two Colonies
by Feather
Today at 01:15 PM
Fruits and Veggies
by KarenE
Today at 10:39 AM
Questions about following Critter Love diet exactly as written
by KarenE
Today at 10:37 AM
My dog Willow
by Terry
Yesterday at 06:36 PM
Too Soon To Say Goodbye, my Lulu
by Ladymagyver
Yesterday at 05:44 AM
Twitchy tale movements
by Feather
10/20/17 04:15 PM
Looking for vet recommendation, Atlanta
by Feather
10/20/17 04:05 PM
Seeking a Bra Baby Glider for PTSD
by Ladymagyver
10/20/17 02:00 PM
First time glider owner looking for wisdom
by Ladymagyver
10/20/17 10:22 AM
Google+

Facebook
Join Us On Facebook
Topic Options
#905297 - 02/10/10 06:42 PM BML and liver failure?
sweetReaper Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 01/14/08
Posts: 1048
Loc: Londonderry, NH
A close friend of mine who owns 6 gliders just lost one of her poor babies today. It was an 6 year old male glider and the vet told her that he died of liver failure due to his diet (BML). She said that the diet contained simple sugars and was too rich, leading to the liver failure. She says that honey should be avoided at all costs. I spoke to a few of my aunts friends soon after, all of whom are exotic vets here in New Hampshire (aside from one in Florida), and they all told me the same thing. Any opinions? I feed my girls HPW, which contains a lot of honey, so I was concerned hearing about this. Has there been any research done as far as finding a better substitute for honey?
_________________________
Sarah is currently a slave to:

Joe <3 - boyfriend
Kasu, Chihiro, Haku, Io - the suggies :bb: :grey: :grey: :rtmo:
Miki :rbridge: You are greatly missed <3
Fuuko, Rin, Hinata - the ratties
Two super cute axolotls

"It can't rain all the time" - Eric Draven

Top
#905300 - 02/10/10 06:46 PM Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: sweetReaper]
Kara Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 11/06/09
Posts: 439
Loc: Centerville, TN
This is the first I have heard of this. I'm shocked, to be honest.

Top
#905302 - 02/10/10 06:48 PM Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: Kara]
saturngirl Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 07/11/07
Posts: 2448
Loc: Columbia, SC
I'll be watching this post. As I have my gliders on the bml diet and have since I got them in '07.
_________________________
*~*Tara*~*
5~suggies "mini" Cooper & Sophie
Paisley, Maci & Smurf
2 ~cats Kia and Gabby~
1 ~silly puppy Darci~

Rest in Peace Chili Pepper dog...you will always have a special place in my heart





Top
#905326 - 02/10/10 07:23 PM Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: saturngirl]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16745
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
I dont buy it sorry.

What parts of the tissues and organs and brain were sent off for a histopath? The only way to know for certain if diet is the cause of death is to rule out ANY and ALL other ideas. If any other part of the body starts malfunctioning, the liver will then not work as it should. That is in any living creature with a liver, including humans.

With all the deaths and necropsies Dr.Tristan has done, he has always stated that he does not believe ANY of them are diet related. And if vets would look deeper into the death than to just see the liver has got issues, than the lead cause may be found on what started the liver failure in the first place.

So No, I do not believe the glider died from BML.

I am not saying however that ANY of the diets out there (including HPW) has no impact on the bodies organs once they do start experiencing problems. There is just not enough research out there to know for sure.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


Top
#905337 - 02/10/10 07:41 PM Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: Srlb]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
I agree that I doubt it was BML or even honey specifically. While I feed a diet that does not contain honey, I do so because I had so many gliders refuse to eat anything with honey in it. At the time I came up with Reep's diet, most of my gliders refused honey. I haven't tried honey based diet in over 5 years now.

My concerns (with honey based diets) lean more towards diabetes related problems. That would effect the kidneys and pancreas, not the liver. But I've not seen any evidence of that happening either.

The liver is the filter for the body. It filters all the bad junk. Liver failure could be anything from diet to environmental issues, even the air quality.

Sorry, I'm not buying it either...To many gliders live long healthy lives on BML.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

Top
#905341 - 02/10/10 07:46 PM Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: Srlb]
sweetReaper Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 01/14/08
Posts: 1048
Loc: Londonderry, NH
They have her glider and are still looking into it, but so far the opinion of the people checking her glider has not changed. They cannot find any other signs of health issues that could have caused the liver to function poorly. They claim that gliders have livers that cannot purify simple sugars passing through correctly. I am only the messenger. I am just as concerned and wanting to know the truth as anybody else. I am not saying that this information is correct as I have no way of knowing, I am only passing along what I have been told.
_________________________
Sarah is currently a slave to:

Joe <3 - boyfriend
Kasu, Chihiro, Haku, Io - the suggies :bb: :grey: :grey: :rtmo:
Miki :rbridge: You are greatly missed <3
Fuuko, Rin, Hinata - the ratties
Two super cute axolotls

"It can't rain all the time" - Eric Draven

Top
#905356 - 02/10/10 08:11 PM Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: sweetReaper]
WintersSong Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/26/09
Posts: 2294
Loc: NY
I'm not really buying that BML was the cause of death... At least, not that the honey caused problems. Most every diet has honey in it. HPW has honey. BML. Blended diet. Judie's BML (of course). The newer Lucky Glider Rescue Soup has honey. BLG's Mix and Match has honey. PML... and probably others.. Those are A LOT of diets that use honey. And a lot that have been used for years (though yes, some are new..but the honey in the diet is not). If the honey was the cause, I think there would be talk of many more deaths on this, as these diets are quite commonly fed (specifically HPW and BML). All that I know is that BML (and a few of the others) are ones that my vet highly recommends, and that she has never seen any problems coming from either, so long as the diet is being fed correctly. (one issue with seeing if diet is really the cause of death -- is the diet being fed as instructions or are little modifications being made? What about treats? ... it seems nearly impossible to know).

I have heard from a few people that they speculate that the Wheat Germ in BML could cause problems, due to being so high in iron..BUT, that's all that I've heard. No proof shown, though I've asked for some repeatedly. Just speculation. I did speak to my vet about this though, and her simple response was much the same as Peggy's response about the honey. We simply do not have information, or research, to know for sure.


Edited by WintersSong (02/10/10 08:13 PM)
_________________________
~*Sara*~

"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom." ~Anais Nin

Top
#905391 - 02/10/10 09:20 PM Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: WintersSong]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16745
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
They claim that gliders have livers that cannot purify simple sugars passing through correctly.


Do they know what wild gliders eat??

If they research it, they will see the sap, manna, nectar, all contain simple sugars...


Once again, unless they are sending the tissues and organs and brain off for thorough testing, there is no way to know for sure what is going on that caused the liver to shut down.

It is often too easy for a vet to say it was the liver that failed because it is a visual thing. Us, the owners, not knowing to question it and the *hows* to question it, just accept the vets answer. this is where we need to change things. It is the only way to *dig deeper*. This is why necropsies and histopaths are so very very important.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


Top
#905406 - 02/10/10 09:51 PM Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: Srlb]
lovely1inred
Unregistered


Honestly I would seek another vet's opinion at this point. If liver failure is the cause of death, then the liver has to be tested to find out *why* it failed. I understand you are just the messenger, and please send condolences to your friend who has lost her baby. It hurts no matter how it happens.

Top
#905407 - 02/10/10 09:54 PM Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: Srlb]
sheila82
Unregistered


Bourbon has fed her diet for many years without ill effect. I myself feed BML and have never had problems or vet contraversy. I doubt it is diet.

Top
#907291 - 02/15/10 02:09 AM Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: ]
Glider_Dad Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 01/16/10
Posts: 177
Loc: Middletown, Ohio
We also feed the BML diet and the only thing I could think of in the way of honey being a factor is if she had fed raw or unfiltered honey or honey comb. Did she?
_________________________
Ed
Husband to Patricia (mylittleshadow)
Father to:
Coco and Gizmo the cats,
5 Suggies :grey: Rufis oop 12/07, :wfb: Calliope oop 07/08, :grey: Kite oop 11/06, :rtmo: Gabby oop 03/10, and :grey: Saphira oop 03/10.
:rbridge: Garfield the cat, Callie the Queen Cat Pegasus 11/06 to 06/14

Top
#907299 - 02/15/10 03:01 AM Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: Glider_Dad]
konotashi Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 4061
Loc: Mesa, AZ
I haven't read through all of the posts here (I'm tired right now), but personally, no. I don't think it could have been the honey. There are a TON of sugar gliders that are successfully fed BML/HPW, both which use a significant amount of honey, and from what I know, there are no cases of liver failure/death because of it.
_________________________
~Marissa~

How-to Critter Creations

Top
#907331 - 02/15/10 07:55 AM Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: konotashi]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16745
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
only thing I could think of in the way of honey being a factor is if she had fed raw or unfiltered honey or honey comb.


I feed Raw honey, although it is filtered, it is still raw. There is nothing wrong with feeding raw honey, it actually has more good stuff in it than the pasteurized honey.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


Top
#907337 - 02/15/10 08:25 AM Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: Srlb]
hwh4ev Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 2836
Loc: roseville, mi
i agree scrib, raw, organic honey has all the vit./min. and
enzymes? (spelling) in it. regular processed honey is
nothing but a sweetner-all the vitamins, etc. are processed
out.

regards,
nancy in detroit
_________________________
regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)

Top
#907342 - 02/15/10 08:58 AM Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: hwh4ev]
fliptout Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 515
Loc: Tennessee
a friend of mine feeds BML and her glider died last summer at 17 years old. Doesn't seem like honey is bad if her's lived that long.

Top
#907427 - 02/15/10 01:12 PM Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: fliptout]
Paani Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 01/22/10
Posts: 401
Loc: Colorado, USA
I've been following this thread with obvious interest. I don't understand the vet's claim that glider livers can't process simple carbs like honey given the nectars and manna and sap they live on in the wild. Does he think there's a difference between the fructose they get in the wild and the concentrations in honey? Is it a quantity issue?

Afraid I've got a physics rather than physiology background so am not getting it. On the other hand, we have to be careful of anecdotal evidence -- a handful of specific examples doesn't constitute proof one way or the other.

I would love it if sweetReaper could get more info from her friend on what the vet thinks is going on.
_________________________
Anson :grey: Judah :grey:
Lele :rbridge: Laki :rbridge:

Top
#907442 - 02/15/10 01:53 PM Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: Paani]
oakley Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 2305
Loc: Florida, USA
I have fed BML as long as I have had gliders. I have never had a problem with the honey. Some gliders do not like the taste of honey, but this is personal preference, not cause for liver failure.

The two most popular diets according to the diet Poll are HPW and BML. Honey is an ingredient in both and glider owners have been feeding these two diets successfully for years.

I'd like to see some further testing done on this glider, it does seem odd that a perfectly healthy 6 year old being fed a good diet would have liver failure.
_________________________
Meghan

~__/>
{{ }}


Suggies: Basil, Mausi, Bagheera/Baloo, & the Trio
Dogs : Pretzel/Snickers
Horse: Nugget
RIP: Gato, Pepito, Pepper, and Mowgli gangel


Oakley's Glider Site

Top
#907466 - 02/15/10 03:01 PM Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: oakley]
7glider7
Unregistered


The Australians have been putting honey in their Leadbeater's mix for years without having issues. Gliders eat simple carbs like nectar and sap all the time in nature. Honey is not the problem.

There are some who feel that BML actually has too many vitamins and/or minerals in it. When BML first came on the scene, it was a huge improvement because many gliders were having major health issues from lack of vitamins. However, one of the few controlled studies done on sugar glider diets expressed concern that BML might actually have too many vitamins or minerals in it. The liver and kidneys are the main organs responsible for processing many vitamins and minerals. Make of that what you will.

While I think the BML diet can be improved upon, and I now feed my gliders something else, I certainly don't think it's deadly or responsible for massive liver failure or we'd have gliders dropping dead right and left. And I certainly don't think honey is the issue.

Just my two cents.

Top




Moderator:  Feather, KarenE, Ladymagyver, Philwojo 
Sugar Glider Help Page



Please click above to see how you can help!!

Moon
CURRENT MOON
Who's Online
1 registered (Terry), 15 Guests and 56 Spiders online.
Key: Owner, Admin, Mod
Newest Members
reba, AlyCatz, mandydarr, FinFiFuFe, Angelicat26
6389 Registered Users
Forum Stats
11 posts in the last 24hrs
6389 Members
134 Forums
8901 Topics
147906 Posts

Max Online: 478 @ 07/15/07 01:24 AM
Last 10 New Topics
Should breeding pairs ever be separated?
by AlyCatz
Today at 04:53 AM
Twitchy tale movements
by FinFiFuFe
10/20/17 12:29 AM
Looking for vet recommendation, Atlanta
by Jen_faith
10/19/17 08:40 PM
First time glider owner looking for wisdom
by
10/19/17 03:36 PM
Older Male/Joey Female or Older Female?
by
10/19/17 10:01 AM
Cold snap!
by Ladymagyver
10/19/17 12:51 AM
Bringing Home Your Baby
by Amanda159
10/18/17 06:42 PM
Bedding
by Amanda159
10/18/17 05:53 PM
Male Glider penis problem
by Jen_faith
10/18/17 04:58 PM
Little Roxie
by kidqwik
10/17/17 06:57 PM
(Views)Popular Topics
I just found a lump on Timmy's chest--HELP! 20203078
Spencer needs your prayers/good thoughts 12465150
TEXAS 646174
Pitbull biter needs advice/help 588971
OHIO 505188
Member Titles 449067
MISSOURI 383207
HOLY CRACKERS AMERICAN HPW's 359844
OKLAHOMA 344216
URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered 342224
Supported Browser
This site was tested and is best viewed in Google Chrome & Mozilla FireFox



Firefox 3

Download your copy today!!!


GliderCENTRAL
©1998-2017