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#911708 - 02/24/10 09:46 PM Polydactyl?
Glide_Bye_Lily Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 04/21/09
Posts: 1268
Loc: WI
I thought this was a manifestation of inbreeding? Why would a person want to breed for this trait, or breed gliders that have it? I've seen a couple now and their prices seemed pretty high as well. I would think this would at least be a genetic defect you wouldn't want....
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Puppies:Moxie.Piper Mae Sniffer

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#911731 - 02/24/10 10:36 PM Re: Polydactyl? [Re: Glide_Bye_Lily]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
There are many of us that feel that way. It is a genetic defect that should not be bred for. Since the actual type of polydactyl is unknown, it could very easily have other genetic defects that are not seen. There are breeders that see this as "special" and allow it to continue though because some people always want the "unusual" even if that means health issues somewhere along the line.
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But I'd of had to miss the dance


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#911738 - 02/24/10 10:47 PM Re: Polydactyl? [Re: Dancing]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
I'm not doing much looking - but haven't seen any polydactyl gliders. But - then again, I'm not looking!

I know that polydactyl cats are relatively common. It is not a complicated genetic mutation in cats, and doesn't cause any health traits. Except, I've never seen a polydactyl cat who wasn't also LARGE!

Is it showing up in any particular color? Line?
_________________________
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"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#911739 - 02/24/10 10:49 PM Re: Polydactyl? [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Lynsie has had several polydactyl gliders born. All from the same line I believe. You could ask her.

It does cause some genetic health problems in species other than cats though. Humans can have all sorts of health issues.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#911753 - 02/24/10 11:18 PM Re: Polydactyl? [Re: Dancing]
Glide_Bye_Lily Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 04/21/09
Posts: 1268
Loc: WI
I worked on a farm where there were LOTS of barn cats and LOTS of inbreeding (sadly) and it seemed there that polydactyl cats popped up after a few generations of inbreeding. They always were males and they almost always became obese. Even barn cats.

I just don't understand WHY you would want to risk the health of an animal for a "cool" trait of having more than the normal amount of fingers.

Not to mention that it's just plain creepy....
_________________________
Allie

Skin baby:Rhydian
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Meet our Glider Rainbow!
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#911938 - 02/25/10 02:18 PM Re: Polydactyl? [Re: Glide_Bye_Lily]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
I have a polydactyl glider, Maia. She will be 3 this year. She was Lynsie's first polydactyl and a surprise for her.

I was really saddened by the reaction of people when it was discovered Maia was a polydactyl. She is neither 'deformed' nor 'creepy' nor a burden to care for - she is a wonderful, sweet, healthy, active little girl and I love her for her, not for her extra thumbs. Many people have met Maia and most weren't aware she was a poly. Most of the time, I don't think about it until I am clipping nails or if the trait comes up in a discussion like this one.

I have heard there are other polys out there now and I can't speak to their lines or their breeders. My understanding is that the extra toes are on different feet which would make one wonder that there are separate genes at work than Lynsie's line. (just a random thought there, roflmao ).

I guess I can see this from both sides - I agree that there isn't very much known about the long term health of a polydactly. But the same can be said about some of the color morphs out there. Color comes about because of genetic differences/mutations, and no one knows what goes along with those either, yet no one is crying foul when a color glider is bred. Gene mutations are not remotely unusual in gliders (the many colors, polydactyl, short tails, small gliders) but I have seen more concerned discussions over them than the others (maybe I have just missed the others). dunno

I never intended to breed Maia, as my own choice. Lynsie never promoted Maia or her siblings as 'designer' gliders worth more money (I am only aware of two poly siblings at this point, neither of which are being bred, last I heard). She just wanted them to have good homes with people that would love them and isn't that what we want from our breeders?
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~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#911945 - 02/25/10 02:38 PM Re: Polydactyl? [Re: sugarlope]
eterrell84 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 3047
Loc: atkins arkansas
my opinion (for what its worth) is as long as they are not inbred and its not a health risk, than its fine. but even if it IS a health risk, those babies need love too! hopefully its not done for the wrong reason or the wrong way!
_________________________
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#911959 - 02/25/10 03:14 PM Re: Polydactyl? [Re: eterrell84]
Glide_Bye_Lily Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 04/21/09
Posts: 1268
Loc: WI
I'm not saying they shouldn't be loved....

But I'm more concerned about the other possible genetic problems that could come along with it. As I said, just from what I've personally seen in cats- i've seen it pop up after a few generations of inbreeding.

I'm not saying anyone is purposefully inbreeding either.


I'm saying that IMO when something like this pops up it should be looked into more than just "hey, look it has 6 fingers that's cool." as sell it and keep breeding the line.

IMO, colors and extra limbs are a little different. Kinda like comparing apples to oranges. Look at the frogs that are growing extra legs and arms and such, it's because they've been exposed to a chemical/ parasite that does this to them and is detrimental to the survival of the animal. Colors change constantly from an evolutionary standpoint. When a subspecies of Lizard/ moth or whatever is separates from the main group, those animals will often times change color to fit in with the new surroundings. This is done through the survival of the fittest theory, the ones that blend in the best go on the reproduce....etc, etc.

Now I'm not aware of any animal in the wild that has grown extra appendages to survive? Could be wrong though, and to me there is a reason for that-they are not FIT from an EVOLUTIONARY standpoint to survive, be it through genetic problems that decrease lifespan, or inability to adapt.

I'm also not knocking on anyone that HAS one of these gliders, I'm sure they make lovely babies. I'm just wishing to discuss this topic through a genetic perspective. grin

Not trying to come off as know-it-all-y either smile I just have a genuine interest in other peoples opinions on this, and their opinions on the theories I have just presented.

thanks for listening to word vomit! lol!
_________________________
Allie

Skin baby:Rhydian
Kitties:Putz.Squeak.Pinky.Sparta.Francis.Harley
Puppies:Moxie.Piper Mae Sniffer

5/17/12Templeton
5/14/09Xena
2/13/09Fritz
10/23/12JD

Meet our Glider Rainbow!
www.wisconsinsugargliders.webs.com

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#911964 - 02/25/10 03:21 PM Re: Polydactyl? [Re: Glide_Bye_Lily]
eterrell84 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 3047
Loc: atkins arkansas
oh, i totally agree with you glide_bye_lily!!!
_________________________
~ERIN~ momma to:ceasar(boxer),Chili(pug),Badcat(black cat) and Juliette(ragamuffin)~Apple:grey:and Archer:grey:and George Micheal:grey:Maybe:grey:and Jasper :wfb:,husband Jordan and daughter Azlyn!heart

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#911974 - 02/25/10 03:30 PM Re: Polydactyl? [Re: eterrell84]
LabNGliderMom Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 01/04/09
Posts: 3753
Loc: Florida
The trait for polydact comes from a dominant gene, and only a polydactyl creature can parent another polydactyl creature. it happens in almost every form of mammal and a few amphibians and reptiles as well. Sometimes the gene being present also means other genetc defects "could" be present as well- perhaps the animal is a carrier for another trait it does not show "symptoms" of itself... but being a polydact "could" be the only outward symptom of other underlying genetic conditions.

Of course, the most "famous" polydacts are the Hemmingway cats... descended from a Maine Coon cat Ernest Hemmingway owned that was polydactyl, the decendents- not all of who are polydactyl- are cared for to this day on his old homestead thanks to provisions in his will.

There are humans with polydactyly as well- though many choose to remove the extra digits for vanity reasons or because the extra digits are not fully fnctional and get in the way... Sid Wilson (the guy on the turntable for Slipknot) was born with extra digits on both hands and both feet... and there is a major league baseball pitcher- Antonio something... (can't remember his last name) has extra digits, as well... just to name a couple.

Do I think people should breed for this mutation and call them designer gldiers and sell them at higher prices? No. Bu people do breed for genetic mutations all the time with ill effects most are willing to live with... dachsunds bred longer and lower with extra risk of slipped disks, german shepherds bred for sloping hindquarters that get hip displaysia... even munchkin cats are purposely bred to look a certain way and the defect hasn't been bred for long anough to determine the long-term effects.

I think it is wrong to consider them "designer" gliders and claim they are worth more money- but remember- domestic dogs started out as wolves and were bred for special characteristics... so while I disagree with cahrging more for them and while I feel it is too early to determine the long term effects of the mutation, if the trait pops up, I guess I am not opposed to it being treated as if it is just "normal" and seeing what happens over time if it happens sometimes but is not PURPOSEFULLY bred for.

JMHO, of course smile



Edited by LabNGliderMom (02/25/10 03:31 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling
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Grandsons: Trysten, Dayton, KJ & Nathyn
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#911982 - 02/25/10 03:54 PM Re: Polydactyl? [Re: Glide_Bye_Lily]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
Originally Posted By: Glide_Bye_Lily
IMO, colors and extra limbs are a little different. Kinda like comparing apples to oranges. Look at the frogs that are growing extra legs and arms and such, it's because they've been exposed to a chemical/ parasite that does this to them and is detrimental to the survival of the animal.

While there are likely different genes at play for color variations vs extra toes (vs extra appendages, btw) a mutation is a mutation and some will have other affects and some will not (at least not noticeable except under certain circumstances). Since we are comparing gliders to other animals in this scenario, consider that in some species of dogs and cats white fur and/or blue eyes can mean deafness. For some species of animal, albinism means a potential host of other genetic problems. I agree that if gliders suddenly start growing extra legs or heads, there is a problem in the line somewhere, although this kind of thing does occur sometimes, even in people and those people can go on to live normal healthy lives.

Quote:
Colors change constantly from an evolutionary standpoint. When a subspecies of Lizard/ moth or whatever is separates from the main group, those animals will often times change color to fit in with the new surroundings. This is done through the survival of the fittest theory, the ones that blend in the best go on the reproduce....etc, etc.!

I completely agree with this, but I don't think this relates to this discussion because the color we see with our gliders have nothing to do with evolution or survival of the fittest. In some cases, glider color came about through close inbreeding.

Quote:
Now I'm not aware of any animal in the wild that has grown extra appendages to survive? Could be wrong though, and to me there is a reason for that-they are not FIT from an EVOLUTIONARY standpoint to survive, be it through genetic problems that decrease lifespan, or inability to adapt.

There are different kinds of polydactyly, and there is a fairly significant difference between an extra arm or leg and a fused thumb on the front hands or a couple of extra fingers. There are even certain breeds of dog that require polydactyly to be show quality, so polydactyly is not always 'bad', just different.
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#911988 - 02/25/10 04:08 PM Re: Polydactyl? [Re: LabNGliderMom]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
Originally Posted By: LabNGliderMom
The trait for polydact comes from a dominant gene, and only a polydactyl creature can parent another polydactyl creature. it happens in almost every form of mammal and a few amphibians and reptiles as well. Sometimes the gene being present also means other genetc defects "could" be present as well- perhaps the animal is a carrier for another trait it does not show "symptoms" of itself... but being a polydact "could" be the only outward symptom of other underlying genetic conditions.

Not necessarily true, neither of Maia's parents are poly and I knew a girl growing up that had 5 fingers on both hands and neither of her parents were polys.

While I agree that the presence of the mutation (for polydactyly) on the gene(s) could have other affects, I also think that we don't KNOW that, and it could be a completely harmless mutation as well. With the oldest poly, that I am aware of, being less than 3 years old, how do we know what the long term implications are either way?

Quote:
I think it is wrong to consider them "designer" gliders and claim they are worth more money- but remember- domestic dogs started out as wolves and were bred for special characteristics... so while I disagree with cahrging more for them and while I feel it is too early to determine the long term effects of the mutation, if the trait pops up, I guess I am not opposed to it being treated as if it is just "normal" and seeing what happens over time if it happens sometimes but is not PURPOSEFULLY bred for.

I completely agree, Julie.
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#912120 - 02/25/10 09:13 PM Re: Polydactyl? [Re: LabNGliderMom]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Originally Posted By: LabNGliderMom
The trait for polydact comes from a dominant gene, and only a polydactyl creature can parent another polydactyl creature.


That statement is not accurate. I was in the process of purchasing a WF 100% leu het (not from Lynsie) and the day before he was going to be shipped, the breeder was trimming nails and noticed an extra thumb on each front hand. Because I wanted him for breeding, we agreed to cancel the adoption. I did not want to intentionally breed a genetic defect.

This line has been traced for many many generations, and this was the first case.

I also spoke with my vet. He said that it could be genetic or happenstance. We determined this case to be happenstance simply because of the genetic history known.

Obviously, my determination was not to adopt/breed this glider. Last I heard, he was not going to be bred.
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#912136 - 02/25/10 09:51 PM Re: Polydactyl? [Re: GliderNursery]
Glide_Bye_Lily Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 04/21/09
Posts: 1268
Loc: WI
Very interesting! Thank you all for your insight!

I guess I should have been a little more clear about my colors theory. smile

I know that colors pop up out of genetic abnormalities, that's usually how it happens out in the big old wild too. It just so happens that sometimes those colors are more likely to survive and therefore pass on the characteristics. They can also change gradually over time. I used this comparison because it is very similar to what is done in captivity. Except it is not for the survival of the species. A color variation pops up and we humans start selectively breeding for the color. In the wild, if a color promotes survival the original colored animals will get bred out completely and the new color will take over eventually-through natural selective breeding. Most times it is only a few animals that carry the gene for color so you will get natural inbreeding.

Does that make more sense as to where I was coming from with that?

I suppose sometimes the trait can be a fluke, like usually for a "little person" to be born both mother and father must carry the gene, but occasionally it just pops up do to some random process.

I'm glad that people for the most part it seems are not continuing to breed gliders that pop up with the polydactyl trait, but I have to wonder about a pair that consistently produces polydactyl...should they really keep breeding?
_________________________
Allie

Skin baby:Rhydian
Kitties:Putz.Squeak.Pinky.Sparta.Francis.Harley
Puppies:Moxie.Piper Mae Sniffer

5/17/12Templeton
5/14/09Xena
2/13/09Fritz
10/23/12JD

Meet our Glider Rainbow!
www.wisconsinsugargliders.webs.com

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#912201 - 02/26/10 12:13 AM Re: Polydactyl? [Re: Glide_Bye_Lily]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Quote:
Polydactyly and syndactyly are also possible outcomes of a large number of rare inherited and developmental disorders. One or both of them can be present in more than 100 different disorders where they are minor features compared to other characteristics of these diseases.


http://www.hmc.psu.edu/healthinfo/pq/poly.htm


For this reason, I do not think that gliders that produce polydactyl offspring should continue to be bred. There IS the chance that the extra toes is the only problem with the joey but...they still really don't understand it in humans and with no studies done on gliders, there is just no way to know for sure.

If a pair of gliders were known to have joeys with heart defects, those parents would be retired and any offspring would not be bred (by anyone ethical anyway). I feel the same way about the polydactyls.

Not that the joeys with heart defects or poly shouldn't be loved, just that gliders that produce those traits shouldn't remain in breeding situations because of the "what if's".
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#912543 - 02/26/10 06:20 PM Re: Polydactyl? [Re: Dancing]
Glide_Bye_Lily Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 04/21/09
Posts: 1268
Loc: WI
Has anyone looked into the lines that are producing polydactyls? Are they more inbred than most "other" lines that do not produce polys? dunno

Is there any specific line that seems to bee producing these gliders more than others?
_________________________
Allie

Skin baby:Rhydian
Kitties:Putz.Squeak.Pinky.Sparta.Francis.Harley
Puppies:Moxie.Piper Mae Sniffer

5/17/12Templeton
5/14/09Xena
2/13/09Fritz
10/23/12JD

Meet our Glider Rainbow!
www.wisconsinsugargliders.webs.com

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#915501 - 03/06/10 09:08 AM Re: Polydactyl? [Re: Glide_Bye_Lily]
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
I know this topic is a week old but I was just linked to it and I just wanted to add that I agree completely with Teresa. A defect is a defect, and often is an outer sign of other problems that cannot be seen. I've heard it before about other defects, even the possibility of defects...why is it ok to breed a pair that consistently throws polydactyl joeys when we're still saying that other pairings that show absolutely no proof or history of producing defects is not ok simply because it's theoretically possible? Breeding any pair that produces a deformity intentionally is very irresponsible imo. Additionally,

Originally Posted By: Dancing
If a pair of gliders were known to have joeys with heart defects, those parents would be retired and any offspring would not be bred (by anyone ethical anyway). I feel the same way about the polydactyls.


You'd think that would be true...sadly it's not...some of our most revered breeders do not follow this rule; ironically, the exact same situation played out several years ago with one of the most well-known breeders in the community and was not handled as you suggest it should be. Maybe one of our problems here is that the seasoned 'recommended' breeders are not providing a good example.
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