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#929205 - 04/11/10 03:17 PM What does USDA Regulate?
tjlong Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 1710
Loc: Washington
I read over and over on this site and many others that it is very important to get your gliders from a USDA licensed breeder. I understand that breeders that are licensed need to have 4 or more females in order to apply and, at that time a license is required. I totally get that USDA regulates how the animals are cared for, the facility, the vet checks, etc. I have the packet from the USDA regarding getting a license. I don't meet the requirements to apply yet.

Here is my question; Does USDA regulate inbreeding?

I don't see that USDA does anything to prevent inbreeding. dunno I can't find anything in the hefty Animal Welfare Act and Animal Welfare Regulations where lineage on animals is required. I believe with dogs, for example, (which breeders are also required to be licensed) are monitored through other means. Example being, if you breed purebred dogs you usually register them through a kennel club of some kind and the lineage is tracked there.

So, how do we educate people to understand that the USDA license isn't the be all and end all to the equation in purchasing a glider? I still plan to get licensed when the time comes but believe this is an important topic.:)

If I am mistaken, could some of the licensed breeders or others who have looked into this please respond? thanks
_________________________
Regards,
Tracy
(425) 789-7753
Acres of Sugar

:rtmo: Slave to Several Adorable Gliders :wfb:
~~~~~ :cream: :grey: :leu: :bb: ~~~~~
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Current Research, Studies & Resources
#929223 - 04/11/10 04:21 PM Re: What does USDA Regulate? [Re: tjlong]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
When it comes to breeding gliders, the USDA is a joke. They do not regulate inbreeding. Their idea of an "appropriate" cage is one that is large enough for the animal to stand up and turn around in. A 1 foot cube is large enough for USDA standards.

Being USDA licensed breeder does NOT mean the joeys will be well socialized or healthy. It does not mean they won't be taken from their parents too young. It does not mean the parents are well cared for or are fed properly.

All the USDA is really interested in is paperwork and the fees they collect each year. None of those fees go to help prevent mill bred gliders, because the mill breeders are USDA licensed! The brokers (such as Perfect Pocket Pets) for those USDA licenced Mills are also USDA licensed BROKERS.

So as far as I'm concerned, when it comes to gliders, the USDA is a joke.
_________________________
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#929225 - 04/11/10 04:25 PM Re: What does USDA Regulate? [Re: Dancing]
TheGliderPlayroom Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 02/24/04
Posts: 1594
Loc: Youngstown, Ohio
Originally Posted By: Dancing
So as far as I'm concerned, when it comes to gliders, the USDA is a joke.


I couldn't have said it better myself.

When I applied for my license, the inspector passed me in about 2 minutes flat. He glanced at my cages and asked where I kept the food, flipped through my paperwork binder, and went out to print my approval paperwork. He was done and gone in under 15 minutes. shakehead
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The Glider Playroom
PSG/Sugar Glider Database
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#929226 - 04/11/10 04:26 PM Re: What does USDA Regulate? [Re: TheGliderPlayroom]
Tish84 Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 08/07/09
Posts: 1855
Loc: Orlando, FL
Doesn't it require you to keep records and to have a yearly vet visit?
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#929229 - 04/11/10 04:37 PM Re: What does USDA Regulate? [Re: Tish84]
TheGliderPlayroom Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 02/24/04
Posts: 1594
Loc: Youngstown, Ohio
Originally Posted By: Tish84
Doesn't it require you to keep records and to have a yearly vet visit?


Mine did. My records were a list of joeys born and sold and bought, and the vet inspection paper. He didn't ask questions or verify anything. I could have written down anything I wanted to and it would have been accepted. My vet that did the inspection was a farm vet who did my inspection between dairy farms- literally. They don't care if a glider knowledgeable vet does the inspection or not, just that one is done.

Having a USDA license was a waste of time and money. As soon as my inspector told me I could drop it by neutering some of my males (I was told they only care about females housed with males that are intact and actively producing), I neutered two of my males and dropped my license. I've just kept to 3 or less breeding females since.
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The Glider Playroom
PSG/Sugar Glider Database
Vice-President of the NE.O.B.B.C.

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#929237 - 04/11/10 04:56 PM Re: What does USDA Regulate? [Re: TheGliderPlayroom]
tjlong Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 1710
Loc: Washington
So my assumptions are correct. It is a way to "regulate" in not a very productive way.

Now, the question is, why do people keep saying, "you should make sure you buy from a 'reputable licensed breeder'"??? Reputable I like, licensed I just don't get dunno I think it is that fallacy of thinking "licensed" means responsible.
_________________________
Regards,
Tracy
(425) 789-7753
Acres of Sugar

:rtmo: Slave to Several Adorable Gliders :wfb:
~~~~~ :cream: :grey: :leu: :bb: ~~~~~
Sugar Glider Genetic Project





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#929238 - 04/11/10 05:04 PM Re: What does USDA Regulate? [Re: TheGliderPlayroom]
Tish84 Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 08/07/09
Posts: 1855
Loc: Orlando, FL
Originally Posted By: tjlong
So my assumptions are correct. It is a way to "regulate" in not a very productive way.

Now, the question is, why do people keep saying, "you should make sure you buy from a 'reputable licensed breeder'"??? Reputable I like, licensed I just don't get dunno I think it is that fallacy of thinking "licensed" means responsible.


I know that in Georgia, you can only buy from USDA breeders.
Originally Posted By: TheGliderPlayroom
Originally Posted By: Tish84
Doesn't it require you to keep records and to have a yearly vet visit?


Mine did. My records were a list of joeys born and sold and bought, and the vet inspection paper. He didn't ask questions or verify anything. I could have written down anything I wanted to and it would have been accepted. My vet that did the inspection was a farm vet who did my inspection between dairy farms- literally. They don't care if a glider knowledgeable vet does the inspection or not, just that one is done.

Having a USDA license was a waste of time and money. As soon as my inspector told me I could drop it by neutering some of my males (I was told they only care about females housed with males that are intact and actively producing), I neutered two of my males and dropped my license. I've just kept to 3 or less breeding females since.


Oh, I thought they required copies of actual vet records.
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#929242 - 04/11/10 05:07 PM Re: What does USDA Regulate? [Re: tjlong]
JamieInWA
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: tjlong
So my assumptions are correct. It is a way to "regulate" in not a very productive way.

Now, the question is, why do people keep saying, "you should make sure you buy from a 'reputable licensed breeder'"??? Reputable I like, licensed I just don't get dunno I think it is that fallacy of thinking "licensed" means responsible.


I think you are right Tracy. Any monkey can get licensed. I think the buyer needs to be smarter than that. It's like driving. It's pretty easy to get, but having one doesn't mean you are a good driver.

I think people just need to be educated about it.

Honestly, the people who say that are probably all licensed and it's a way to make themselves look good. Hope I didn't offend anyone with that statement. I just think that the paperwork doesn't automatically make one breeder batter than another.

JMO

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#929273 - 04/11/10 06:51 PM Re: What does USDA Regulate? [Re: ]
ssdreamsicles Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 05/10/07
Posts: 1871
Loc: kentucky
I agree just because u have your USDA does not mean u are a good breeder. I have my paperwork and will be sending it off soon not to be a better breeder as i already do everything above and beyond the USDA say so but because I just want to have it. I was thinking it was if you have 3 breeding females or more. I am at 3 so will apply.

I know ill get approved but having that behind my name will not make me a good breeder only i can do that. I will not pride myself in having my USDA I pride myself at my gliders good lines and temperments of my joeys and the care i give each and everyone.

Just because the breeder is USDA you still need to do your research into them to make sure they are a good breeder.
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www.treasuredgliders.com


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#929279 - 04/11/10 07:09 PM Re: What does USDA Regulate? [Re: ssdreamsicles]
GliderDave96
Unregistered


I think it is 4 breeding females now. I think they changed it.

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#929285 - 04/11/10 07:16 PM Re: What does USDA Regulate? [Re: ]
ssdreamsicles Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 05/10/07
Posts: 1871
Loc: kentucky
Ill have to check into it. I only have 3 but would not mind going ahead and applying.
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cloud9Melissa
www.treasuredgliders.com


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#929289 - 04/11/10 07:25 PM Re: What does USDA Regulate? [Re: ]
snowbabygliders Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 1276
Loc: usa
well i thought i'd give my opinion here lol wink

it is true that USDA does not regulate inbreeding. I always suggest to make sure that your breeder is USDA licensed, if required, and to make sure they are also reputable.

I would not however ever categorize USDA licensed breeders in a category of bad. I also know a lot of bad breeders that are USDA licensed and i also know a lot of reputable breeders that are licensed. It goes both ways. I also dont feel like the reputable licensed breeders in any way feel that the License makes them better than anyone else or look better. wink also wanted to add that there are a lot of reputable breeders that aren't required to be licensed, that are still amazing breeders and glider owners.

It comes down to laws and regulations. It is the law if you have 3 or more breeding females. They changed the law from 4 or more, to three(3) and more recently.

Also my inspector was strict. She is very by the book and above. She wanted to see vet records. She was here for over an hour going over rules, regualtions, my glider room, vet stuff, diet, food storage etc. which i feel is also a good step in the right direction. Does the USDA need improvement? yes they do. I'm sure there will always be imporvements needed. It's the breeder's responsibility to treat their gliders well, vet them and show an example of not inbreeding IMO. The vet inspector was here for over an hour and the USDA only received a 30-40 dollar application fee from me that visit. IMO she did a lot more than i was required to pay. It was because i did'nt rehome a lot of joeys in 2009. In 2010 it may be different but it's also a very fair licensing fee scale IMO. The teaching she did while here, the length of time, was well worth a lot more than a 30-40 dollar licensing fee. I do not feel they are making $ here. I dont know. I feel they use it to pay salary to those inspectors to work. They have a lot of filing to do. etc etc.

She ( my vet inspector) also told me it is now the law that I can not as a USDA licensed breeder to purchase gliders from non-USDA licensed breeders who should be licensed. If they only have two breeding females without a license then its ok per the new laws. I also can not sell any gliders/joeys to unlicensed breeders who I know by law should be.

I do not feel i look better with a USDA license. I did it because it is required by law, because it is the right thing to do and beacsue my gliders mean the world to me and would never want to put myself in a position where they could be at any legal risk. There are many reasons i did it. The IRS has also become involved with USDA.

Personally, I'd rather advocate others getting licensed than not. It my opinion that if you are required to be licensed by law, there is no excuse not to be or reason not to be. Someday it may be required by law in all states to be licensed. I believe the laws will become more strict in time. We shall see.

Thanks
smile

kristy


Edited by kristy55303 (04/11/10 07:45 PM)
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#929313 - 04/11/10 08:38 PM Re: What does USDA Regulate? [Re: snowbabygliders]
tjlong Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 1710
Loc: Washington
Kristy, I totally agree with you when it comes to the reason why you got licensed. In fact, I got my packet of licensing info just last month. When I asked the contact at USDA here in our area, the Northwest, she said I had to have 4 or more gliders. I will call and check again after reading your post. I am going to get my license as well for the same reasons you did. If you have the number of gliders that requires a license then it is only right.

Jamie, I also agree with you, anyone can get a license, it doesn't mean they will be responsible or even good at breeding gliders. That is where the mill breeders come in. They are licensed and obviously aren't responsible nor do they care about the precious animals they are creating and selling.

Once again, it seems to me it comes back to educating purchasers. I believe there are people with less females out there who are more than capable of producing very wonderful healthy and well adjusted joeys! That is part of my point. smile

Thank you all for your input!
_________________________
Regards,
Tracy
(425) 789-7753
Acres of Sugar

:rtmo: Slave to Several Adorable Gliders :wfb:
~~~~~ :cream: :grey: :leu: :bb: ~~~~~
Sugar Glider Genetic Project





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#929316 - 04/11/10 08:42 PM Re: What does USDA Regulate? [Re: snowbabygliders]
Tish84 Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 08/07/09
Posts: 1855
Loc: Orlando, FL
(PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets is USDA licenced and I have read some scary reports on the USDA website of some breeders. The problem is that inspections are very subjective considering every inspector is different.

I have my reservations of the USDA after reading about how they do inspections in slaughter houses.
_________________________
TISH

Lana (Siberian Husky)
2 Turtles
Bunny
:bb: :leu: :wfb: :rtmo: :cream:
Lily Fawkes Kingsley Ice Regulus Romeo Mimkin Saturn Jupiter Taiyou Kat Julianna

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#929363 - 04/11/10 10:14 PM Re: What does USDA Regulate? [Re: Tish84]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Under the current laws, It is if you have MORE than 3 breeding females. 3 or less you are exempt from license requirements.

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_welfare/downloads/manuals/dealer/requirements.pdf
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#929367 - 04/11/10 10:18 PM Re: What does USDA Regulate? [Re: Dancing]
snowbabygliders Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 1276
Loc: usa
I called them, two people told me three or more. I asked even three? they said yes three you need a USDA license. It was the eastern regional office i spoke to over the phone. Might be worth clarification just in case wink I know my inspector told me the same thing. That is currently what i have to go by legally with my inspector and regional office. dunno

edit; just wanted to say and add that i said the same thing to them. in one part of the blue book it did say that then another part said something different. so confusing! i was like "ok which is it then?" yeah i don't know for sure except what the inspector told me and the two eastern regional women that answered the phone on two separate occasions. Seems each inspector and even the USDA has their stuff all mixed up, no one is ever the same. Also any unfixed cat, dog etc that is not spayed is considered into that. the best thing i can say, is its best to call and double check ;)perhaps i got misinformation on three occasions lol but personally if that is what i was told at the time ( 2-3 months ago) then i wasn't willing to risk it. so yeah, i'd just double check the laws by calling. If it is 3 or fewer than i was given misinformation. wink


Edited by kristy55303 (04/11/10 10:29 PM)
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#929375 - 04/11/10 10:28 PM Re: What does USDA Regulate? [Re: Dancing]
JenniferM
Unregistered


I couldn't agree with you all the more! I have to say that I am sure there are very good people out there who are not even considered breeders who take exceptional care of their gliders, etc. I say this because I have one of Tracy's glider's, Iso, and that is how we met. Even though she is not USDA, I would never hesitate to buy a glider from her and would recommend her to others in a heartbeat. It is sad that like so many other things in this world, the consumer really needs to do their research before purchasing. And sometimes, the information is so overwhelming and confusing all you can do is cross your fingers and hope that you make the right choices. But I do feel it is important for all of us to encourage others to who are going to be glider owners, to join this group and strive for education.

It is this way with most animals. You have the good and you have the bad in both categories.

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#929400 - 04/11/10 11:02 PM Re: What does USDA Regulate? [Re: ]
berryanimalluvrs
Unregistered


Couldn't have stated it better. I am trying to get my license because of state issues but even without it my gliders get the BEST of everything. Education is the key to any animal care. For me there is always more to learn and this site helps greatly. Thanks!!!

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#929422 - 04/12/10 12:02 AM Re: What does USDA Regulate? [Re: ]
tjlong Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 1710
Loc: Washington
Thank you Jen! For that great comment about me! I do appreciate it very much. The reason I brought up this question was to try to help dialog about what is important to look for in gliders no matter who the breeder is. You know first hand that some gliders don't get a fair shake in the beginning. They all need love and if we can keep the lines healthy then it is a good thing!

USDA, like any large organization doesn't seem to have a good education system for their employees. When I needed to find out about having gliders shipped into Washington I got two stories from the Washington Department of Ag and then when I called Oregon Dept of Ag the first person I talked to tried to tell me the law had changed and they weren't allowed there anymore! dunno NOT TRUE! After being on hold a long time another more informed person told me there was a misunderstanding and that some other animals are being restricted by a new change in their laws. Either way, I have to have a Health Cert to get gliders into Washington and to take them to Oregon when I hand deliver there. Go figure...It can take asking the same question several times to get the answer we already know. LOL
_________________________
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Tracy
(425) 789-7753
Acres of Sugar

:rtmo: Slave to Several Adorable Gliders :wfb:
~~~~~ :cream: :grey: :leu: :bb: ~~~~~
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#930326 - 04/14/10 12:24 AM Re: What does USDA Regulate? [Re: tjlong]
JenniferM
Unregistered


Wow - that is crazy. I do not know much about this so sorry for the additional questions... what type of a health cert are they speaking about? And are there any restrictions that you are aware of in Oregon just to travel with them, or is it only when you are a breeder and delivering your prescious little cargo??

So curious am I... always learning! LOL

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#930344 - 04/14/10 01:37 AM Re: What does USDA Regulate? [Re: ]
JamieInWA
Unregistered


Jennifer,
TO import gliders into WA, the breeder has to take them to a vet in their state and get the vet to fill out a health cert...also required to ship on certain airlines. Then that vet has to call the WA state department of Agriculture and get a permit number to import and write that on the health cert. Then this is shipped with them.

Kristy- I also think that people should get licensed if they meet the requirements. I just also think that the buyer should not assume that this makes the breeder a "good breeder". Also, there are good breeders that may not be able to get licensed because they only have 2 females.

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#930878 - 04/15/10 09:37 AM Re: What does USDA Regulate? [Re: ]
fliptout Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 515
Loc: Tennessee
I know there is a place on the USDA site where you can look at their inspection reports on breeders, does anyone have that site?
thank you

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#995214 - 08/22/10 09:29 AM Re: What does USDA Regulate? [Re: fliptout]
Briarthorn
Unregistered


Since I technically work for APHIS I figured I'd better chime in.

Here is the main site to publications, reports, etc USDA-APHIS-Animal Welfare-Animal Care

Follow this link and you can find all of the information talked about in this thread. The ost recent report I believe is 2007. Everything you want to know about this topic is there.

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#997274 - 08/27/10 09:06 AM Re: What does USDA Regulate? [Re: tjlong]
Catman Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 235
Loc: Colorado
The USDA should stick to agriculture! They should also get rid of "wildlife services" what a horrible branch of government!!!
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#997680 - 08/28/10 08:00 AM Re: What does USDA Regulate? [Re: Catman]
Briarthorn
Unregistered


I seriously don;t think you understand what all USDA and Wildlife services do,. Catman. You may have a glimmer of what they are for but it is obvious that you are not well informed about all they do and I take offense to your ignorance.

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#997727 - 08/28/10 11:15 AM Re: What does USDA Regulate? [Re: tjlong]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Just curious...

Quote:
Since I technically work for APHIS I figured I'd better chime in.


Just what do you do for the APHIS? Maybe you are in position to help us get the USDA regs changed to help improve the living conditions gliders are kept in at these mills.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#997852 - 08/28/10 07:45 PM Re: What does USDA Regulate? [Re: tjlong]
Catman Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 235
Loc: Colorado
Briarthorn I had to deal with USDA inspectors for several years, I also dealt with Wildlife Service personnel at the Colorado Springs Airport for wildlife problems. I know how they work.
Until Wildlife Services stops the use of 1080 and m-44 poisons on public land to indiscriminately kill anything that stops to sniff, I'm not to worried about hurting their/your feelings.


"In 2007, Wildlife Services killed 2.4 million animals, including 121,520 native carnivores such as coyotes, wolves, bobcats, cougars, badgers, and bears."
_________________________
1 son
1 wife
5 Cats
2 dogs Twiggy and spot
6 sugargliders:Ray,Cinnamon,Nick,Holly,jasmine,and bella
3 rescued gliders with no names
1 corn snake

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#997855 - 08/28/10 07:51 PM Re: What does USDA Regulate? [Re: Catman]
Catman Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 235
Loc: Colorado
_________________________
1 son
1 wife
5 Cats
2 dogs Twiggy and spot
6 sugargliders:Ray,Cinnamon,Nick,Holly,jasmine,and bella
3 rescued gliders with no names
1 corn snake

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#998100 - 08/29/10 10:29 AM Re: What does USDA Regulate? [Re: Catman]
Briarthorn
Unregistered


Ohh I get why you are so ticked now. I was Thinking Fish adn Wildlife. USDA is a big agency. I agree with you on that link but thats a very small part of a very big agency. I get ticked when I see people dissing on USDA because where I work we perform a very important function and we are REALLY REALLY underfunded and understaffed. There is very l;ittle public awareness on what we do at USDA and more specifically APHIS. No public awareness no funding. Just look at the cost of the med fly outbreak we could have prevented if we had the manpower to actually do our jobs.

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#998984 - 08/31/10 06:15 AM Re: What does USDA Regulate? [Re: tjlong]
hushpuppy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 1640
Loc: Mims, Florida, USA
I have to agree with what has been said here. USDA/APHIS is a joke. This agency is supposed to protect animals. Too often it seems like APHIS protects large companies with cruel and inhumane practices. And too often we see these injustices brought to light by organizations other than USDA/APHIS. If you don’t believe it, just take a look at what recently happened in Arlington.

For years USDA cloaked itself in secrecy where it was like pulling teeth to get copies of simple inspection reports. About a year ago, those reports were made public. A lot of us now understand all the secrecy because it is an embarrassment your organization to see how inefficient USDA/APHIS is run and how much apparent corruption and indifference there is in this department.

I understand that you feel there are not enough resources for agents to do their job. Who doesn’t feel that way these days? That is a conversation that you need to have with your superiors, not here on an animal related forum. You will get no sympathy for many of us who have seen first hand how incompetently this department is run and from those of us who have experienced the indifference when we seek answers. And the fact that there is a shortage of resources doesn’t change the fact that it is the agents job to protect the animals and THAT is a job that USDA/APHI doesn’t seem to take seriously.

The large mills that dot this country are there because USDA/APHIS doesn’t do what it is supposed to do… protect the animals. Period.
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RIP Spencer
by Cora
Yesterday at 04:58 PM
New odor issue??
by AlyCatz
12/08/17 05:37 PM
Lighter Gliders??
by AlyCatz
12/08/17 05:25 PM
Bing, bing, bing.... It's
by Terry
12/08/17 09:33 AM
Blindnedd in red eye gliders
by mechnut450
12/08/17 06:28 AM
Happy Birthday Nejwig
by Feather
12/07/17 05:33 PM
Been Distracted...
by Ladymagyver
12/06/17 07:25 PM
Introductions - two male Joey's meeting 8 year old recently single
by 3dymondsgliders
12/05/17 03:57 PM
is the stuff critter love sells the same as the HPW mix??
by Athena26
12/05/17 03:48 PM
Where to get my boys neutered?
by Claralice
12/04/17 10:57 PM
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