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#941107 - 05/09/10 01:44 AM I Feel Like I've Been Scammed, Bonding Help Please
Quigly
Unregistered


I bought my two male and female sugar gliders from Pocket Pets back on the 22nd of February. Tonight I just did my research on the company for the first time and found a lot of disturbing pages and forums regarding the company. I feel a little betrayed, everything about them just seemed so honest.

I have two healthy sugar gliders that have been in my possession since February 22nd, so almost three months. Take into account the 8 weeks before Pocket Pets will sell the baby sugar glider and I believe my gliders are about 5 months old.

Here's my situation, I've made very little head way in bonding with the gliders in the 2 1/2 months I have had them. I've done everything that Pocket Pets has told me, but considering other false information they have given out I'm not sure what to believe now. Most of my bonding process has involved holding them in my hand so they cannot move, which is what I was told to do. Either by slightly squishing them between my two flat palms or something they like to call the Mendahal Grip. I've only recently been using the Mendahal Grip because (nothing else was working well) it was something they added to their web page after I received my gliders. The result is one of the glider has been regressive with trust while the other seems to trust me a little more.

Anyway, where should I go from here? Is there a Pocket Pets transition thread I can read up?

End game I just want them to trust me, but is 5 months too late or has my rough handling of them been too much and they will never learn to trust me?

Thanks for any help.


Edited by sugarlope (05/10/10 03:18 PM)
Edit Reason: changed title

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#941113 - 05/09/10 02:02 AM Re: I Feel Like I've Been Scammed, Where Do I Go [Re: ]
JamieInWA
Unregistered


First of all, welcome to GC.

Second, it is NEVER too late to bond! (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets tells you that you can only bond between 8-12 weeks old, but this is just not true. It takes some gliders months or years to fully bond. Each glider is individual.

I would not recommend the "squishing" technique. I think the best thing to do is start over from the beginning. Try to take it very slow and let them warm up to you. Click the bonding link here to read up on it.

I would recommend cutting little squares of fleece and wearing them against your body in the daytime or sleep with them in your clothes. This will get your scent on them. Then put one of these "blankets" in their pouch and change it out with a new one each day. You can put several throughout their cage if you want. Then I would get a bonding pouch if you don't have one yet and wear them in there while they are sleeping in the daytime as much as possible. Gliders rely a lot on scent when bonding to you. You have to remember that they are so small and near the bottom of the food chain in the wild, so it is going to take time to trust you. Try not to get discouraged. Sometimes it may even seem like you are going backwards.

One of the most important things I would get is a Genji tent (or any cheap tent would work) to use for play time. The genji tent is great because it pops up in seconds and does not have any poles or anything to deal with. It folds down easily. Try to take the gliders into the tent each night just before they are going to wake up. Put a blanket on the floor and take in some treats and toys. Just take their sleeping pouch out of the cage with them in it and set it down in the tent. Your job is to just sit there and basically ignore them. Let them venture out on their own while you just read a book or watch TV. This tent has a lot of mesh on all sides so you can set it up with a TV in the room and watch TV from inside the tent. Pretty soon they will start getting more curious and start jumping on you eventually. This is a very safe place and you don't have to worry about them getting loose in the house or getting into trouble. Trust me, the Genji tent is WORTH it!!

Here is a great thread about building a relationship with your glider. It's written by a very wise woman and it's great in helping you put yourself into the gliders place and see what they see:

http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/...th_y#Post922929

I hope this helps. Please don't give up just yet. Don't do anymore of the "squishing" in your hands or forcing them to be held. Also, please don't do the "thumb in mouth" technique for biting. These things will all be detrimental to your bonding efforts.

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#941118 - 05/09/10 02:29 AM Re: I Feel Like I've Been Scammed, Where Do I Go [Re: ]
Quigly
Unregistered


http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/939156/1

I just got done reading this thread. Maybe, scammed was too hard of a word?

I have been upset lately considering I spent $900 on the whole glider package and it's starting to feel like they will never bond.

I will definitely take up the tent approach. I will also probably just keep them on the diet I started with Pocket Pets (pellets, slice of apple, and a slice of whole grain bread). What do you think?

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#941121 - 05/09/10 02:39 AM Re: I Feel Like I've Been Scammed, Where Do I Go [Re: ]
JamieInWA
Unregistered


well, I would HIGHLY recommend gradually switching them to a better diet. Their diet is not good for them. Click the diets link to see several different approved diets. You can look through them and see which one sounds doable for you. I feed the blended diet and a batch is easy to make and lasts two gliders about a month. Then add in fruits and veggies with occasional mealworms for treats. Bml and hpw are a couple other popular diets. (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets does charge more than a lot of breeders but they get the impulse buyers.

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#941137 - 05/09/10 06:16 AM Re: I Feel Like I've Been Scammed, Where Do I Go [Re: ]
Lucille Offline
In Pouch

Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 39
Loc: Texas
I think scammed is too harsh of a word. You have by your own words healthy gliders, and you make no mention of any fraud as far as their actual ages.

This company suggested a bonding process and a diet which many take issue with. But the way you take care of your pets is up to YOU. If you look around, you will see actual vets at some sites recommend foods I would not feed my dog, let alone my new gliders. It is up to you to research stuff you are told.

I'm glad you are having second thougts about the procedures they recommended to you, and it is good you are here with so many people that are willing to give their time to help.

I too think you should rethink the diet you are feeding, but it is your own decision.
I researched and probably read about 12-15 hours worth of diet opinions, sites that sold food (some excellent, some garbage) and mostly lurking and reading what people said about diets and their own personal gliders. I chose for now the BML diet but I continue to read.

I think the best thing is that you are here, and you are open to suggestion. With that combination, I know you will succeed and that your gliders will be happier and healthier.


Edited by Lucille (05/09/10 06:17 AM)

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#941138 - 05/09/10 06:27 AM Re: I Feel Like I've Been Scammed, Where Do I Go [Re: Lucille]
zenjenn Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 02/10/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Huntsville, AL
Welcome to GC!

I'm not sure what the goal of the "Mendahal Grip" is (I don't even exactly know WHAT it is), but one thing I've done that I haven't personally seen anywhere else (not that it isn't, but I just haven't seen it), IS to train them to be grabbed - a little. I *did* want them to be at least a *little* comfortable with being grabbed in case I had to grab them for their own safety.

First I spent about a week just petting them and feeding them and let them run through my hands a bit. Once they were comfortable with me.. I would *lightly* grab them out of the pouch and immediately feed them a mealie while they were held on my hand - then continue to hold them a few seconds while they happily crunched on the mealie.

One of my gliders - Boo - is more bold and trusting and the other - Peeka - is very skittish and shy. The result of this technique has been that Boo turns to butter in my hands when I grab him. He just relaxes and lets me grab him, waiting for his mealie to arrive! Peeka is still a little tense, but she no longer crabs or immediately tries to run away when I grab her - she is still nervous but she knows there is mealie potential and looks around for it.

Boo will sit in my hand the whole time he crunches his mealworm, and will then squirm away when he finishes it, and Peeka - after a few bites and making sure her mealie is secure in her paw, will squirm away almost after acquiring her treat. But what I have so far is two gliders who can be grabbed without complaint long enough for me to transport to the cage or a pouch - which is all I wanted! I hope to keep working with them and perhaps get them even more comfortable with being grabbed for longer periods of time in case I need to restrain one for some reason. (I'd rather them be as happy about it as possible!) But they are still new.

My theory in general is, if A) they know being grabbed often means treats and B) they learn that 99% I will let them go if they calmly protest. Restraining them from the get-go with no reward seems to run counter to my theory, anyways, not that I am an expert!

And also, IIRC I have heard (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets does not recommend live mealworms, but seriously, though I am not super crazy about mealworms and I think I might be allergic to them, I have not found any treat that is REMOTELY as effective as a juicy mealworm!


Edited by zenjenn (05/09/10 06:32 AM)
_________________________
Proud sugar momma to :wfb: Peeka and :wfb: Boo!

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#941161 - 05/09/10 09:27 AM Re: I Feel Like I've Been Scammed, Where Do I Go [Re: zenjenn]
krysKritters Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 04/02/05
Posts: 2664
Loc: Hudson Valley, NY
Originally Posted By: Quigly

End game I just want them to trust me, but is 5 months too late or has my rough handling of them been too much and they will never learn to trust me?

It is NEVER "to late" to bond with your gliders. Please do not give up on them! However, it may take longer to earn their trust. Right now they fear you. You need to show them love, patience, and acceptance... at thier pace.

Originally Posted By: Quigly

Most of my bonding process has involved holding them in my hand so they cannot move, which is what I was told to do. Either by slightly squishing them between my two flat palms or something they like to call the Mendahal Grip.

Please stop doing this "technique" immediately. That is the first step. Then I would read up on the bonding information provided in the links provided on the top of the page and follow the suggestions other members have given.

I understand you feel betrayed by (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets, but just imagine how your gliders feel... they too were "betrayed" by the first few humans they ever knew... they can become wonderful bonded pets but it will take time, love, and patience.
Good Luck!
smile
_________________________
Krys DeRosa
Godfather of the NY Glider Mafia

KrysKritters.comcloud9

A child with Autism is not ignoring you, they are waiting for you to enter their world.

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#941169 - 05/09/10 10:08 AM Re: I Feel Like I've Been Scammed, Where Do I Go [Re: krysKritters]
jennifer
Unregistered


Welcome to GC, so glad you found our site so you can get better info. on bonding, diet, etc. There are so many knowlegable people on here that are willing to answer any of your questions. smile Good luck with your babies, and just be patient they WILL trust you, it just may take a while but the end result is very well worth the wait smile

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#941187 - 05/09/10 11:06 AM Re: I Feel Like I've Been Scammed, Where Do I Go [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
I will agree that it is NEVER too late to bond with your gliders. I've had gliders come into me as older adults and have build bonds with them and they with me.

It is about trust. It is about helping them get past their fear but also about you getting past your's. And it is all about expectations.

THIS THREAD is one of the best I have ever read and should be the starting place for anyone with a new glider. Please read it and think about it some.

Then read more in the bonding section of the board. There are so many great tips and advice there. And please, post if you have questions. We want to help you build a positive relationship with your glider.


As for the diet they sold you. I believe it is junk and wouldn't feed it for many reasons. But there are many different diets and each person has their reason for feeding what they do. I feed Reep's Wambaroo diet and have for about 5 1/2 years now.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#941189 - 05/09/10 11:11 AM Re: I Feel Like I've Been Scammed, Where Do I Go [Re: ]
tacasper Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 02/04/09
Posts: 644
Loc: Cincinnati, OH
I think that everyone gave some great advice. I just want to add that it took me about 6 months to bond with my twin girls. I have one boy who is about 9 months old now and just started seeing results last week. He finally stopped running around the cage like a madman when I came up to him. He finally has started coming over and greeting me. I'm pretty sure he was hardly handled when I got him, so the progress was very slow with him. Generally it has taken about 3-6 months for most of my gliders to feel comfortable with me. In the end it's all worth it though. The key with me is just moving slowly together.
_________________________
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Owner of lots of beautiful suggies!
:bb: :wfb: :leu: :rtmo: :cream: :plat:

My fabulous rescue Nanuk
And Kiesha waiting in heaven

And two OCD and neurotic bulldogs Capone and Aspen!


www.sugarhighgliders.com



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#941209 - 05/09/10 12:20 PM Re: I Feel Like I've Been Scammed, Where Do I Go [Re: krysKritters]
pumpkin Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 04/16/10
Posts: 47
Loc: Houston
Originally Posted By: krysKritters

Please stop doing this "technique" immediately. That is the first step. Then I would read up on the bonding information provided in the links provided on the top of the page and follow the suggestions other members have given.


I agree that you should stop using this method of holding them. Gliders typically dislike being restrained. They do not respond well to discipline. Instead of learning to like you, they often learn to avoid you instead.

You will most likely see astonishing results from spending time with them in a tent on a regular basis. They will be free to move about while remaining close to you. This makes it comfortable for them as they're learning that you're a friend to them. Plus, spending time in the tent is one of the most fun things you can do with your glider.

If you take it slow and offer treats, I'm sure they'll forgive you for squishing them.

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#941219 - 05/09/10 01:25 PM Re: I Feel Like I've Been Scammed, Where Do I Go [Re: Lucille]
Quigly
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Lucille
I think scammed is too harsh of a word. You have by your own words healthy gliders, and you make no mention of any fraud as far as their actual ages.



I am upset not about their information about caring for your gliders, in fact I think they have great customer support. I have actually received phone calls from them regarding my e-mails when I felt like the process was taking too long. No, what I am upset about is their marketing. It is definitely designed to a dupe buyer into spending big money on their merchandise. Majority of their marketing is just plain false and doesn't properly prepare someone who is buying a sugar glider.

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#941226 - 05/09/10 01:47 PM Re: I Feel Like I've Been Scammed, Where Do I Go [Re: ]
ButterflyMommy
Unregistered


Everyone here has given great advice, don't give up on bonding, it can be a timely process. My two rescues were two years old and had no human interaction when I got them, it took me years to bond and get them to trust me. It was worth it in the end, they were just as loving as my girl I had since she was an OOP Joey. I agree with everyone else, don't do the holding thing, they don't like to be restrained. Imagine how small they are and how big you seem, kinda like king kong holding the blond chick. (There is a great thread on that, can't seem to find it though.)

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#941231 - 05/09/10 02:02 PM Re: I Feel Like I've Been Scammed, Where Do I Go [Re: ]
JamieInWA
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: ButterflyMommy
Everyone here has given great advice, don't give up on bonding, it can be a timely process. My two rescues were two years old and had no human interaction when I got them, it took me years to bond and get them to trust me. It was worth it in the end, they were just as loving as my girl I had since she was an OOP Joey. I agree with everyone else, don't do the holding thing, they don't like to be restrained. Imagine how small they are and how big you seem, kinda like king kong holding the blond chick. (There is a great thread on that, can't seem to find it though.)


I already linked that thread to her. smile

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#941280 - 05/09/10 05:13 PM Re: I Feel Like I've Been Scammed, Where Do I Go [Re: ]
suggiemom1980 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 13746
Loc: Vincennes, IN, USA
I don't give my gliders a time-frame to bond with me. If they bond right away, that's great. If it takes them years, that's great too. Gliders have their own personalities and some may never be cuddly and enjoy being snuggled. Some want to be free and climb all over you, exploring to their hearts desire. Some are playful and can't get enough, while others look at you like you're from another world, for suggesting they play.

I consider all of my gliders to be bonded to me, but it's the way they want to be bonded, not the way I want them to be.

For example:
Calyspo loves to be a bra baby and tried to be even when she had two joeys OOP and barely fit half of her body in. She loves being held and kissed. Her hubby, Andre`, will crab his butt off but settles down and enjoys being a bra baby. He does not like being kissed but tolerates being held. Their son, Dawson, hates being a bra baby and hates being kissed and held. In the pouch tho, he loves being held and massaged. All three are in the same cage. I got Andre' when he was four months old, Calypso and Dawson were born here. Just like people, they have individual personalities. I respect that and love them for who they are.
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812-890-9734, 24/7 Emergencies/Joey issues

SmallWorldSuggies

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"Glide free :rbridge: Silly "Ozball" Ozzie. You left us 11/21/12..way too soon. You're forever loved, remembered, missed."

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#941342 - 05/09/10 10:05 PM Re: I Feel Like I've Been Scammed, Where Do I Go [Re: suggiemom1980]
buttercup
Unregistered


I agree with everyone...bonding takes time...some gliders respond faster than others. I got Renny when she was roughly 4 and a 1/2 yrs old...once she settled down she was very sweet and after giving her treats, fruits and such from my hand, she came around and now loves to sit on my head LOL...so sometimes age doesnt mean they wont ever bond. All suggies are different and yours are probably still settling in...

Go at their pace....it won't be overnight but with patience and love, they will come around...you'll see!

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#941390 - 05/10/10 02:59 AM Re: I Feel Like I've Been Scammed, Where Do I Go [Re: ]
Meg_n_Von Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 12099
Loc: Vulcan, MO
Kudos to you for finding GC and Welcome!
_________________________
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Sugar Exotics

:bb: Kira :grey: Sadie - Neal :wfb: Pip - Violet :rtmo: Logan - Charli - Tyler - Seamus :plat: Chloe - Cas :leu: Boone

RIP David
Your life was short lived, but your memory will last forever.

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#941407 - 05/10/10 07:28 AM Re: I Feel Like I've Been Scammed, Where Do I Go [Re: Meg_n_Von]
LabNGliderMom Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 01/04/09
Posts: 3753
Loc: Florida
I recommend reading this thread: http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=newbies and several others in the "Articles" Section. Welcome to GC!
_________________________
Julie
Hubby: George
Kids: Ayla & Michael
Grandsons: Trysten, Dayton, KJ & Nathyn
The Zoo: Midnight, Severe & Nala - Claude, Pixie, Tippy & Chili - Scout & Soluna, Theo & Deegie

http://hammockhavenpetsplus.com



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#941447 - 05/10/10 10:12 AM Re: I Feel Like I've Been Scammed, Where Do I Go [Re: LabNGliderMom]
Quigly
Unregistered


Thanks for all the great advice!

Gliders having distinct personalities and that not the same bonding technique will work on all of them is definitely a great thing to know. I will probably keep doing the Mendahal Grip (basically you grip the glider with one hand, putting your thumb kind of under their neck with your index finger over their head, basically so they cannot wiggle out)with my female since she has been almost falling a sleep instantly now when ever I put her into that grip; so it's definitely making progress with her, but the male seems to hate it a lot.

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#941463 - 05/10/10 11:12 AM Re: I Feel Like I've Been Scammed, Where Do I Go [Re: ]
JamieInWA
Unregistered


I still think that grip is going to hinder their trust in you. I would lay off of this.

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#941466 - 05/10/10 11:27 AM Re: I Feel Like I've Been Scammed, Where Do I Go [Re: ]
krysKritters Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 04/02/05
Posts: 2664
Loc: Hudson Valley, NY
Originally Posted By: Quigly
I will probably keep doing the Mendahal Grip (basically you grip the glider with one hand, putting your thumb kind of under their neck with your index finger over their head, basically so they cannot wiggle out)with my female since she has been almost falling a sleep instantly now when ever I put her into that grip; so it's definitely making progress with her, but the male seems to hate it a lot.

I disagree... I do not believe that to be trust... it's submission. There is a difference.
She just gives up.

Ever been so scared that you just close your eyes and wish the world would go away? Basically that is what she is doing.

I personally enjoy my gliders wanting to be near me, not to terrified to leave.

I am not trying to start an arguement but that it is my opinion.
_________________________
Krys DeRosa
Godfather of the NY Glider Mafia

KrysKritters.comcloud9

A child with Autism is not ignoring you, they are waiting for you to enter their world.

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#941468 - 05/10/10 11:32 AM Re: I Feel Like I've Been Scammed, Where Do I Go [Re: krysKritters]
Slickable3 Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 05/23/05
Posts: 2262
Loc: Cortlandt Manor, NY
I agree with Krys and Jamie. There are a lot of better options for bonding on the bonding page.

Also - I don't have a link, but I would try and find a glider growth chart for your reference. (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets have been known to sell gliders younger then 8 weeks old, so you may not have an accurate age for them.
_________________________
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SLICK-RIP 4/16- You took a part of my heart with you
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Toby & Tori
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#941469 - 05/10/10 11:32 AM Re: I Feel Like I've Been Scammed, Where Do I Go [Re: ]
tjlong Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 1710
Loc: Washington
I would suggest to you that maybe your girl is a little more reserved and that she isn't falling asleep because she is comfortable, but maybe she is scared and that is how she is "dealing" with the stress of being held that way. Some newborn babies do the same thing when there is too much noise. Instead of crying and acting scared then just go to sleep to block it out. I can't think of any living thing that likes to be held down. That is just a strong arm method of creating submissiveness that isn't creating a bond with you and your glider. It is creating a fear based relationship. I've been around a lot of different kinds of animals in my live and that just doesn't seem like a positive, trust invoking method. Sorry, just my opinion.

Since you mentioned you bought your entire set-up from (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets tell me, are you still using a tiny cage? You should have a large cage for your gliders and PLEASE try bonding using the tent time and scented fleece methods as well as carrying them in a bonding pouch with you for as long as you can during the day.

As far as being scammed, I really don't understand that terminology for this situation. I can see you feeling you didn't get a very good deal but you chose to buy the gliders from them and maybe you didn't do enough research prior to the purchase. The important thing is you have them now and want to bond with them so move on and focus on healthy methods of bonding, feed them a good healthy diet, get them into an adequately sized cage and enjoy your little ones. smile
_________________________
Regards,
Tracy
(425) 789-7753
Acres of Sugar

:rtmo: Slave to Several Adorable Gliders :wfb:
~~~~~ :cream: :grey: :leu: :bb: ~~~~~
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#941472 - 05/10/10 11:34 AM Re: I Feel Like I've Been Scammed, Where Do I Go [Re: tjlong]
krysKritters Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 04/02/05
Posts: 2664
Loc: Hudson Valley, NY
Originally Posted By: tjlong
I would suggest to you that maybe your girl is a little more reserved and that she isn't falling asleep because she is comfortable, but maybe she is scared and that is how she is "dealing" with the stress of being held that way. Some newborn babies do the same thing when there is too much noise. Instead of crying and acting scared then just go to sleep to block it out. I can't think of any living thing that likes to be held down. That is just a strong arm method of creating submissiveness that isn't creating a bond with you and your glider. It is creating a fear based relationship. I've been around a lot of different kinds of animals in my live and that just doesn't seem like a positive, trust invoking method. Sorry, just my opinion.


agree
_________________________
Krys DeRosa
Godfather of the NY Glider Mafia

KrysKritters.comcloud9

A child with Autism is not ignoring you, they are waiting for you to enter their world.

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#941473 - 05/10/10 11:38 AM Re: I Feel Like I've Been Scammed, Where Do I Go [Re: krysKritters]
buttercup
Unregistered


Well said Krys! It's all about trust, not fear with these little ones.

Believe me...all of us here would LOVE that instant love and automatic bonding but it just won't happen that fast.

I was taught from ppl here that it's best for the suggies to see your hands as something positive, not negative...thats why a lot of us start with hand feeding treats. Your glider will start to see your hand as something good and will come to you on their own more and more. It's way better than holding your glider they way (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets says until she is so scared she submits to you.

And get some scent blankies...get your scent on them and stuff them in the cage pouch. Gets them used to your scent and it becomes familiar to them.

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#941478 - 05/10/10 11:55 AM Re: I Feel Like I've Been Scammed, Where Do I Go [Re: ]
6102 Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 09/29/09
Posts: 272
Loc: NJ
Trust me, the grip is not working how you think. As soon as you let go, she probably wakes up and goes nuts, not stays with you and loves on you. That is what mine did for the short time I did it.
Tent time is the key. Mine started to really trust me then. She started out just going crazy around me in the tent, to slowly using me and my laptop as her own jungle gym. She started to trust me enough that she invited her self to be a bra baby and does not like to leave. grin
I also know that you were told by them they don't need a vet, but they really do need a check up. You don't want to wait and find a good vet when you need them for an emergency..
I am glad you found this site like the rest of us that fell for what they say. I did go home and do research but all I found was what they wanted you to find. YOu can not find out the truth if you are looking for sugar bears instead of sugar gliders...
_________________________
Tricia

:grey: =Hoho (OOP ?? 09) , :grey: =Monkey (OOP 11/17/09) and :grey: =Willow OOP 8/4/09

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