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#95305 - 04/15/06 06:31 PM Riker and Chronos
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
I tell you, when it rains it pours. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Two Gliders, very different issues. Both on Clindamycin.

RIKER:
So, Riker has been on meds a few weeks, and is feeling better, but I don't think he's done with this newest infection yet, been off meds since Wednesday night, and he's going to the vet and visit Dr Emch this evening. Now, I'm going to say something about Riker and his behavior, and wondering if anyone else's gliders do anything like this (keeping in mind Riker has been through several illnesses, including HLP and SM).

Riker got a nestbox, I think we put it in in December. He LOVES his nestbox..even completely abandoned Karin's pouches for it, lol..I'd try to put him in a pouch on cleaning day, and he'd jump right back out until his nestbox came back.

Three days before I noticed the swelling in his face on this latest infection, he moved out of his nestbox, and back into the pillow pouch (he always has a choice of places to sleep). When I tried to put him back in his nestbox during his treatment, he'd fly out like his little tail was on fire! Then he'd go back into the pouch-giving me a dirty look with every step, lol. He was on meds for 3 weeks. Monday, he moved back into the nestbox, and now wants nothing to do with the pouch. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohwell.gif" alt="" />

Now. It seems that his move from nestbox to pouch was "I'm sick, Mom. Something's wrong and I'm trying to tell you" (of course, Mom isn't that bright, lol..it took me a few days). When he was finally feeling better, and moved back, it was "Okay, I'm feeling better now. Thanks, Mom!". Maybe it's just me, but this little guy definitely communicates better than most of mine...once I figure it out, lol.

CHRONOS:
Chronos has been on meds for 2 weeks so far, and painkillers. He has a swelling in/on/or next to an anal gland. The fluid that came out when gently feeling it, was whitish tinged with green. It started like a UTI, hissing when he peed, etc. His history is he's had a UTI, cultured once with klebsiella pneumoniae in his urine, ever since we've had him mostly-about a year. Now we're wondering if it has been something else all along.

Now, the meds have reduced the size of the mass in there, and no more green we can find, but it isn't gone. And he's in pain. He gets Torb 2-3 times a day, but won't stop hissing still, and now he's even doing it in the pouch-something hurts. I'm taking him tonight with Riker to have some tests run.

Chronos has an appointment with Dr. Harris on Thursday the 20th, and possibly could need surgery if whatever this is has to come out, or to definitively find out what is-it's in a hard place to look. But the torb is not keeping his pain under control, obviously, since his hissing is increasing. So he'll probably be to the vet twice this week...as far as I know, as an ER vet, Emch doesn't do this type of surgery, but we'll talk to him about it tonight. Maybe we can get a better painkiller for him to get him thru until Thursday (the other vet is out of town until then). He's been on every conceivable antibiotic, which knocks it down, whatever it is, but doesn't get rid of it. This time it's not even doing that very well.

In any case, keep Chronos in your prayers...he needs them alot. If he has surgery, he'll likely also be in a collar, because this won't be a minor one.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#95306 - 04/15/06 08:25 PM Re: Riker and Chronos [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


All of you are in my thoughts and prayers. I'm hoping for the best <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

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#95307 - 04/15/06 09:15 PM Re: Riker and Chronos [Re: RSXTC]
glidrz5 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 06/13/01
Posts: 7297
Loc: Quincy, IL
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> Good luck at the vets tonight. I hope everything goes well with these two guys & that Chronos gets something to make him more comfortable. Truckloads of prayers coming your way so brace yourself. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be



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#95308 - 04/15/06 09:22 PM Re: Riker and Chronos [Re: ]
Cora Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 6573
Loc: Kilgore, Texas
Oh Jen youve been helping me and I had no idea you had your own glider health issues.............of couse many, many hugs and prayers coming your way....................Cora
_________________________
USDA Licensed Breeder
903-808-1142

http://www.freewebs.com/angelfish_37/index.htm

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#95309 - 04/15/06 11:31 PM Re: Riker and Chronos [Re: ]
Karin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/06/01
Posts: 11583
Loc: Sycamore Illinois
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> Jen, for you and Riker and Chronos. Gosh, I am praying your rainy season is over and it's sunny out soon!!!
(give that Riker a sloppy kiss for me too)
Karin
_________________________
Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"

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#95310 - 04/16/06 02:34 AM Re: Riker and Chronos [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Just got home and done with meds.

Riker is on Clinda and Metronidazole again for the next couple of months (which is what I expected).

Chronos has an abscess right inside the cloacal opening. All it took was some massage and the vet had more green/gray pus than was imaginable. The cytology revealed a very large number of gram negative bacteria in the sample. Some positive, but low compared to the negatives. So he will be on Clindamycin and Baytril both for the next few months to try and cover both the positives and negatives. Since this isn't going to heal with all that stuff in there (the pocket is still about the size of a pea even after all the vet got out earlier)we have to try and massage it out daily, use diluted hydrogen peroxide to flush the wound, and warm packs to help things come out easier. He also has some Metacam for the next few days to help with the discomfort until hopefully the meds make some progress, and we can use the Torb if he needs an extra dose. So likely what we have thought was a UTI, was this abscess in there that wasn't big enough to feel before, and the meds just weren't finishing it off-so we'd stop the meds, and back it came. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, I got a pic of the drainage on some gauze-what was over and above what the vet needed for a sample.


Attachments
559209-Chronosinfection.jpg (29 downloads)



Edited by Xfilefan (04/16/06 02:35 AM)
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#95311 - 04/16/06 03:43 AM Re: Riker and Chronos [Re: ]
glidrz5 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 06/13/01
Posts: 7297
Loc: Quincy, IL
OMG Jen!!!!!! Poor Chronos! But at least you found out what was going on so now you can treat the problem! Are you still planning on taking him in on Thursday then?
_________________________
Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be



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#95312 - 04/16/06 04:03 AM Re: Riker and Chronos [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
I think I'll cancel that one for now...unless things don't improve. Poor little dude, he just clung and shook when the vet was done. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crying.gif" alt="" /> But knowing is half the battle!

I also meant to put the biggest surprise of the night...
Riker and Chronos got weighed...Riker has been a chunk, Chronos is actually a little bigger than Riker in body size, but when he came to live with me he was 105 grams. He still "looks" smaller than Riker, for some reason.

Well, they came in at the EXACT same weight! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
150.2 grams (or 5.3 ounces)

Thats a 5 gram loss for Riker, and a 45 gram GAIN for Chronos! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#95313 - 04/16/06 04:39 AM Re: Riker and Chronos [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />Jen, you truely are an angel. What a wonderful example you are on how to give your heart and all that comes with it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

((Prayers & Hugs))) coming your way...... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

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#95314 - 04/16/06 11:17 AM Re: Riker and Chronos [Re: ]
Cora Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 6573
Loc: Kilgore, Texas
Wow Thats some nasty drainage!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Hugs to you for being such a good glider mommy!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> Hope your little ones show improvement soon. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" /> Cora
_________________________
USDA Licensed Breeder
903-808-1142

http://www.freewebs.com/angelfish_37/index.htm

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#95315 - 04/16/06 04:01 PM Re: Riker and Chronos [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
I've never seen drainage that looks like that (but I haven't seen everything, either, lol)..but it even shocked the vet. To put this more in perspective...that is a very large gauze pad..that larger spot is roughly the size of a quarter plus a little...plus he took two swabs full of it to go test and look at under the microscope. That is a really sick-looking color. (that isn't quite the right word, meaning it denotes bad illness when you look at it, if that makes sense-evil looking might come closer). Chronos is such a sweetheart..he didn't crab (I've never heard him crab..ever) offer to bite, or anything when the vet was working with him, and you could tell he didn't like it and it hurt. Hopefully tho, we finally got our finger on the root of the problem after a year of meds. He and Riker have been neck and neck for vet bills the last year, lol...combined total last night (which wasn't bad, since I only paid a single office visit for the both, and the meds were discounted a combined total of $39.00..) was $187.51. For those thinking of getting a glider, keep in mind these things can happen with these guys...here's a rundown of the bill, to give an idea. While office visits vary a lot, meds and labs are pretty close place to place:

Dr. Consultation and Emergency exam...$65.00
Laboratory, cytology...$39.60
Enrofloxacin Injection for Exotic pet (oral Baytril)...$31.50
Metronidazole Liquid...$11.05
Clindamycin Liquid...$21.45
Metacam 10 ML bottle...$17.60
Tax...$3.31
Total...$189.51
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#95316 - 04/16/06 07:15 PM Re: Riker and Chronos [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Jen,
This has come up in Chronos posts before. Since a glider does not have a dedicated opening for the urinary tract, a non-contaminated urine specimen is difficult to get. When germs are cultured from a urine specimen, the assumption is that a UTI exists. A lab report that gives a specific organism is hard to disregard. But it does have to be considered in the context of other possible causes - one just can't assume it is of urinary tract origin. Since there are always stool germs around, their urine cultures are not ever going to yield contamination-free samples.

A strategy of long-term meds is rarely the answer (or a good answer) for most things. Riker on long-term meds for a presumed osteo of the facial bones is logical, even if unconfirmed by films each time. The recurrence history has not been good.

If your veterinarian's working diagnosis for Chronos was a presumed UTI that keeps recurring, prophylactic meds may make sense. But if a perianal (pericloacal?) abscess is being entertained as the thought behind his problem, long-term meds wouldn't square with me. He isn't getting cured with those, and he won't. When a short course of antibiotics don't do the job, there is a reason. We aren't to the bottom of the problem. I hate to seem knife happy - I'm not even a surgeon. But try to fix it.

Abscesses and infection pockets are rarely amenable to antibiotics. In those problems, antibiotics are an adjunct to infection control and healing, but are not the magic bullet we make them out to be. They are THE answer for pneumonia, or pyelo, or cellulitis. Not abscess.

And the issue isn't about a "pick the right med against the right germ" fight. That isn't the game. And trying a different med, or longer course, isn't the solution IMO. Finding the fistula, or clearing out the whole abscess pocket can be tricky in people. It can need several tries, but we have to stay persistent to win. I can imagine that in a glider that surgical exploration is much harder. But the conservative plan seems to be failing to eradicate the problem. A week or month or a year of an ineffective strategy remains ineffective, and adds the complications and risks of long-term meds which are quite real. So I would equate antibiotics for an abscess like bringing a slingshot to a gun fight.

But who knows - David got lucky.

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#95317 - 04/16/06 07:47 PM Re: Riker and Chronos [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Thanks Schlep..we're going to have him looked at again in a few weeks..the vet's theory was that the antibiotic couldn't work because there was this abscess filled with infection..so trying to keep the abscess cleaned out daily now that it's open, plus meds to knock down the bacteria that keep getting in there so hopefully it can start healing-we're cleaning out all the pus and flushing daily now, which we didn't before, because we didnt' know it was there. If at the reeval it looks good, we'll discontinue the meds, or moderate if it looks like the abscess is healing and making progress, and reevaluate again, and keep an eye on the abscess from there. Apparently there is quite a bit of healing that needs to be done since this has been going on so long..the tissue there looks pocked with smaller holes in addition to the main abscess..so we're trying to give it time to heal (hopefully). He (the vet) doesn't want to operate for fear of damaging the cloacal nerves/muscles and causing permanent damage (he has twice on other gliders, and the outcomes were not good-loss of muscle control, sm, etc.)...so if it comes down to that, I'll need to go to Dr. Harris, and I've never seen her (but heard good things), so it will be a brand new vet for that. I don't want to do that if I can avoid it, but I will if that's what it comes down to.

The good news, is once we drained it, his hissing has stopped-so I'm encouraged by that at least that we're in the right place. We got a bit out today, but nothing like yesterday. We're flushing with 50/50 hydrogen peroxide and water on the vet's instruction-that worries us a bit, but the vet said it won't damage the tissue (I really hope not, and we're being very careful where it goes).

Thank you so much for your input-anything you can offer is greatly appreciated, and it may come down to having to go in there if it absolutely can't heal on it's own. I'll do whatever it takes to give him the chance at a quality life without being sick or in pain all the time. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

With Riker, we're going to try and clear it again, and then go on maintenane meds like you suggested. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> His face got really big this time, and there is still slight swelling and eye bulge...barely noticeable, but I can see it because I'm so used to looking at him. So one more go 'round, and hopefully the maintenance will keep it gone thereafter. So, see? I do listen to you! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> Going to attach a current pic of his head...(we finally had ALL his hair grown back after the last course of treatment, it stayed for a month, then this took him 3 DAYS and his face swelled up again) Attaching pic


Attachments
559518-Riker'sheadagain.jpg (31 downloads)

_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#95318 - 04/16/06 11:04 PM Re: Riker and Chronos [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


sounds like a reasonable plan. My note got wordy, but bottom line - If a course of the antibiotic of reasonable length didn't work, longer courses are actually less likely to work. Time for a plan re-adjustment. Good luck.

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#95319 - 04/17/06 09:51 AM Re: Riker and Chronos [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Jen, just wanted to wish you all the luck in getting the boys healthy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

And my goodness, that Riker is just as handsome as can be <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />

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#95320 - 04/17/06 09:55 AM Re: Riker and Chronos [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hugs and Kisses to Riker and Chronos ! <3 I hope they start feeling better.

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#95321 - 04/17/06 10:22 AM Re: Riker and Chronos [Re: ]
angelic4296 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3264
Loc: Northeast U.S.
Jen, Well isn't he a little prince, all sprawled out in his box and posing for the camera! What a sweetheart! Many hugs and prayers being sent your way, we're all routing for your two little guys, and tell them I said to stop worrying their mom so much and start feeling better!!
_________________________
Jess

2 spoiled gliders, Gizzy (6/05) and Ruthie (?/05) <3

Please consider rescuing first!

Please remember to complete your surveys at http://www.sugargroup.org/ - help better the lives of gliders everywhere smile

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