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#95710 - 04/17/06 03:00 PM black toe
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hello everyone,

my big boy seems to have a major problem with left hind leg, more precisely his big thumb. I hadn't noticed when i got him that it is in fact swollen pretty bad, looking as if it was dead tissue. Since no one cares to work a holiday in the city i live, the only emergency vet hospital is manned by a machine no less! Here i was thinking this was only a problem with a lame leg which was bitten a year ago now it has turned into a probably life-threatening situation.

What i do not understand is that he hasn't started to chew it off. I only hope he can tolerate it until tomorrow night when i can get him in for checkup//surgery if need be. What should i do to help him out? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/upset.gif" alt="" />

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#95711 - 04/17/06 03:24 PM Re: black toe [Re: ]
Xglider Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 11157
Loc: Tampa, FL
I think about the only thing that any of us can say is that a vet’s input is needed …. Keep an eye on him, it is good that he is not bothering it, but that could change at any moment… please get him into a vet asap….
_________________________
* ~ * John * ~ * Sorry store is closed at this time.. <br>
Link -> ~~ XtremeGlider ~~ Home of the original Re~set Toys! ~~ <br>
Oct 2012 update.. miss my gliders and my
glider family and think of my friends often!!!

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#95712 - 04/17/06 03:33 PM Re: black toe [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> What Canadian holiday is it?

The toe being black means it is necrotic and could be a serious problem. The necrosis could turn systimic (Sorry, I know I spelled that wrong) and get into his blood stream. He needs to be treated asap and the necrotic tissue removed down to healthy tissue. He will then need to be on both pain meds (probably Torb) and antibiotics (probably Baytril) while it heals. Have an e-collar close and handy incase he goes after it. If he chews on it or even really just grooms it, it will only make things worse and take longer to heal. He should probably also be kept seperated from other gliders until he is healed to prevent them from grooming it for him.

Please keep us posted on how he is doing.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#95713 - 04/17/06 04:27 PM Re: black toe [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dancing, the holiday is Easter MOnday in Canada.
I hope your baby is okay and everything goes well when you are able to take him to the vet . Many prayers and Hugs sent your way.

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#95714 - 04/17/06 04:54 PM Re: black toe [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ok, good news! In so far i have found one hospital that will take my big boy Titan in, but it won't be before 6pm tomorrow <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> What this means is that i have 24hours to help my big boy and to prevent him from s.m. his foot. They cannot do it any sooner, all the closer hospital refuse to take in exotics(and 1 of them told me before hand that they would without problem..liar!) I will keep you all posted <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/needhug.gif" alt="" />

P.S. in canada we are getting way too lazy! so many unknown and non needed 'holidays' keep the workforce sitting back, it's a wonder we can make anything good!

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#95715 - 04/17/06 06:47 PM Re: black toe [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
As Dancing said, black is necrotic (dead) tissue. Dead tissue will not regenerate or heal, and needs to be removed so it doesn't spread and take more of his foot with it. I understand you need to wait for the vet, and SM is a concern, so I'll try and help get you to your vet appointment.

No one knows, unfortunately, at what point of pain a glider will begin to SM, and it's different depending on pain tolerance for each animal...just like in people, one person smashes a thumb, and doesn't think much of it, and another would be on the floor writhing in agony. So you need to either put him in an ecollar to prevent the possibility, or keep him with you constantly so you can see if he starts paying attention to it, and act immediately before he damages himself. Here are the directions for an ecollar (the attachment has step by step in pictures)...and I'll attach the template to this post-go by the measurements indicated and not the size of the drawing, which may be off. Here are the directions:

E-Collar

Very likely the vet will amputate the dead tissue-to prevent it's spread to healthy tissue and so it can heal. You want an ecollar on hand and ready to go..that is when the risk of SM is going to go way up, and they tend to try and remove stitches, which hurts, so they chew at the wound and make it worse, and so forth. SM is a vicious circle-and he has to leave it alone so it can heal.

Very Important: First, the vet should prescribe a broad spectrum antibiotic, to not only get rid of any bacteria that may already be present because of the necrotic tissue, but from the surgery as well that may get in.

Second...because SM is linked to pain/discomfort, don't leave without a painkiller for him...Torb (butorphanol-painkiller) or valium suspension (painkiller/anti-anxiety) are good for gliders who are SM or at high risk of it like in your situation. Keep in mind that the meds (and esp. the combination of meds and collar) can kill the appetite...you may be hand feeding him for a while to get him to eat. You will want to remove anything from his cage that he might fall on and hurt himself (their gracefulness factor goes way down with the ecollar)..and rig a hammock for him to sleep (close to the floor) as he won't be able to use a regular pouch. BML or Ensure, babyfood fruits/veggies are easiest for both of you when a collar is on, as he only has to lick them. He will likely have some trouble with solids for awhile while he adjusts to the collar-it does constrict the neck some...it needs to be on tight enough he can't get out of it, but not so tight it affects his breathing...that can take a few tries. If his nose starts turning dark, blue, or purple, take it off and readjust.

For in cage feeding with a collar...the bird feeders work well (and like above require foods/liquid that can be licked up). I'll post a pic of what they look like...they're available at walmart and most grocery stores.

Keep us updated on your little guy. If you need immediate help by phone, my # is 435-783-6097.

Attachment: pic 1 collar Template

NOTE: do not try and self medicate..dosages must be based on your glider's weight, condition, and what combination of things he is taking-that is what your vet is for.


Attachments
559931-ecollarTemplate.jpg (43 downloads)



Edited by Xfilefan (04/17/06 06:56 PM)
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#95716 - 04/17/06 06:50 PM Re: black toe [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Pic 2: Feeders


Attachments
559932-Feeders3.jpg (45 downloads)

_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#95717 - 04/17/06 06:53 PM Re: black toe [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
And this is what the glider should look like when the collar is on. It can be trimmed to about one-half inch past the end of his nose, but his nose has to be within the collar to keep him from reaching his foot.


Attachments
559933-xCruising_around1.jpg (45 downloads)

_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#95718 - 04/17/06 08:05 PM Re: black toe [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thank you Xfilefan, your inputs are a relief to me. Since i found out about his toe, i've kept him in a bonding pouch(zipper + window) so i can keep an eye on him. Up to now he has been mostly sleeping, but sometimes i skip a heartbeat or 2 when i hear him sneeze. I don't think he is actually going for his toe, simply grooming himself.

As i have only one pouch today, i had to keep them both in the same pouch. Let me tell you, Devante's really pouch protective! It ain't no fun trying to peek at Titan and have her crab at me for invading her space so soon. He on the other hand, doesn't crab much. Should i be worried he isn't crabbing? he is awake and has taken 3mealworms i handfed him so i know he has appetite.

I will run first chance i get to the clinic and grab myself the tape to make the e-collar.

Thanks again for your helps and good thoughts

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#95719 - 04/17/06 08:21 PM Re: black toe [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Don't be worried if he doesn't crab..dead tissue itself doesn't really hurt, dying tissue can, tho. He may not touch it until that tissue is removed...once it is, tho, into healthy tissue so it can heal..is the bigger risk-that IS going to hurt. But he could, too, which is why keeping an eye on him is so important....like I said, that line between doesn't hurt enough to mess with, and does, is hard to pinpoint, and there's no telling when he may suddenly decide it's a problem he feels he needs to deal with. Just watch close and be ready. Some gliders will make a unique sound when they start to SM-like a painful crab/hiss...others make no sound at all and you won't know they're doing it until you see the damage.

Moleskin, molefoam, duct tape, and clear report cover (med weight-not light enough to bend easy, but flexibe, and not so heavy you can't curve it-I get it at Staples or Office Max), are what you'll need for the collar.


Edited by Xfilefan (04/17/06 08:23 PM)
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#95720 - 04/17/06 09:04 PM Re: black toe [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I don't really know if he is okay or not, since i could not see any bite mark on his toe up close in the last hour, but his pouch did have a tiny spot of dried up blood in the bottom. I will keep on looking over him for tonight. This is so stressing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worried2.gif" alt="" />

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#95721 - 04/17/06 09:07 PM Re: black toe [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Jen,
I just want to thank you for being so detailed on this subject. You help so much more then you probably realize.

I couldn't find the report covers like you describe so what I used are these plastic cutting mats (plastic cutting boards) that I found at walmart. They work great for ecollars. (sadly, I've had two gliders now that have needed them). The advantage of the clear report covers is they allow the glider to still have mostly full view around him/her (unlike the cutting mats) and I think causes less stress. But if it comes down to a choice of the glider seeing or the glider chewing, my gliders will not see a thing until they heal.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

Top
#95722 - 04/17/06 09:22 PM Re: black toe [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
If you see any more blood, get a collar on him, or hold him wrapped in a wash cloth if you have to. You'll know tonight if he is...when they are awake and active is when they most often tend to strike for some reason. It's going to be a long night for you without a collar-a glider can have that toe off and be working on his foot in a matter of a quarter hour-so close watch would probably better be stated as "constant". And yes, if you can't find clear, use whatever will work..the main thing is him not damaging himself. If he can't see, he'll try and back out of the collar, so be ready for that, and for him to thrash around for half an hour or more trying to get it off-let him. It's heartbreaking to watch, but necessary, and he'll stop when he realizes it's not going anywhere. That's when the collar can cause depression (and where hand feeding comes in)-spend as much time with him as you can then-it's hard but much, much more preferable to him chewing his foot, and he will live with it, and forgive you, so just don't give in and take it off.

Teresa, thanks..I try to be because there's just so much with these guys, and can go bad so fast. The less damage, or none, the quicker and easier recovery for both glider and owner, which is the goal whenever possible.

Jack...there could be a number of ways this happened. one of the most common is a thread getting wrapped around the toe and cutting off circulation...so always check pouches/cages thoroughly for loose threads-if a pouch is worn..throw it away. The toe may have been closed in a cage door...any number of scenarios. You may never know what happened, but now it's just to get him through it and out the other end with as much of his foot and function as possible, regardless of what started it. And he will adapt without that toe once it heals-gliders can be without an entire foot or leg, and are amazingly resilient once they learn how to get along without it.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#95723 - 04/18/06 05:53 AM Re: black toe [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


So far so good, he hasn't bothered his big toe in the least this night. I'm just worried about him being so reluctant to venture outside his pouch. he did go out for about 15-20min, ate his fill of darcy diet and a few fruits, and then back into the pouch all night long. His mate went in there often to groom him(that got me scared a bit!) but no harm was done. I don't know if it is because he is hurting that he stays in pouch, or the transition got him scarred and unwilling to.

thanks everyone for your help and comments, really appreciate them. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" />

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#95724 - 04/18/06 08:15 AM Re: black toe [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi Jack,

You are doing so wonderful. The fact that he's eating is a good sign, and so long as your keeping a very close watch on him with his mate it be should fine with her grooming him so long as she leaves the toe alone.

Let us know how your vet visit goes, I've been thinking of you both a lot <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />.

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#95725 - 04/18/06 09:41 PM Re: black toe [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sorry for the long wait,i have come in after a long drive back from the vet hospital. i've just finished hand feeding Titan after his first shot of baytril for today. He's such a brave and strong boy! The veterinarian i met, Dr Manon Termblay, is an avid sg enthusiast! Even writing a book on them too! She's rarely seen such a good patient, he hasnt crabbed or so much as made a sound during the exam.

Titan's left hind foot is swollen from infection, and although it looks a bit feverish to her taste, he isn't much bothered when manipulated and proded right onto his toe. She's putting him on baytril twice a day for a week until his infection blows over. After that it's back for a reevalution to see the true extent of dammage. The big toe is dried up all the way to 1st joint, and somewhat inflammed on the second part. Until the meds kick in, i can only watch and put him in the e-collar if it turns for the worst. The thing is, it will have to be amputated at the first joint, but there is also the possibility it might self-cut neatly (??) or so she's told me.

The bad news is that his other foot has a problem too. one of his claw was either ripped out, cut or broken nearly to the root. it has trace of growth on it, and it isn't infected. I don't know what happened exactly, Dr Tremblay has suggested a bad nail job might be the cause of both problems. She hasn't seen any treads of any kind on his left toe.

Well that is it for tonight, now it's time to go and stand vigil for a long while again. Thanks again Jen, Teressa, Chaungo1, your inputs has been priceless in helping me keep my sanity. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" />

P.S. for the record Titan's 119grams, and Devante a mere 66grams!

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#95726 - 04/18/06 09:53 PM Re: black toe [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />Jack, thank you for the update, I know you are tired and worried but it will all be worth it in the end.

It is so great that you have found a good vet and one that is interested in gliders is fantastic. Have you been in touch with the previous owner to try find out if they have any information on what may have happened.. if possible it is always a good thing to try find the source of the problem..

I'm praying the meds kick in fast and that Titan's pain stays away. You will be in my thoughts <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> sending best glider wishes your way.

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#95727 - 04/18/06 10:35 PM Re: black toe [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Yes, thank you for the update. One of our moderators just brought home a little girl in even worse condition (she may end up losing a leg)-but I know that both of these gliders will be fine-because they have great glider parents to care for them. Let us know if you need anything and keep us updated! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#95728 - 04/18/06 11:02 PM Re: black toe [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wow, that is hard! My thoughts go on to this good person and her little girl, it isn't fun to go through this situation. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

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#95729 - 04/19/06 12:07 AM Re: black toe [Re: ]
glidrz5 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 06/13/01
Posts: 7297
Loc: Quincy, IL
Hi Jack, little Carina Trey is my new baby girl. I nearly cried when I saw her foot & I wasn't even bonded to her like you are with your baby. She has no toes, only a thumb left and her leg is all twisted. She's in great spirits tho & was happily exploring her new domain when I had to leave for work. If you have any hints/clues on how you've got your cage set up for your baby, I'd love to hear them so I can make this little rescue girl as comfortable & happy as possible during her recovery.
_________________________
Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be



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#95730 - 04/19/06 05:36 AM Re: black toe [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


hi glidrz5,

little Carina's foot & leg sound horribly wrangled! poor girl. I wish you and her the best. I will try to post a picture tonight if i can get my hands on a camera, if not i will post a description of it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

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#95731 - 04/19/06 01:31 PM Re: black toe [Re: ]
Xglider Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 11157
Loc: Tampa, FL
Hay Jack I am glad to read that you and Titan found a good vet, and I will keep you both in my thoughts… keep us posted, hang in there, and keep lovin on those furries!
_________________________
* ~ * John * ~ * Sorry store is closed at this time.. <br>
Link -> ~~ XtremeGlider ~~ Home of the original Re~set Toys! ~~ <br>
Oct 2012 update.. miss my gliders and my
glider family and think of my friends often!!!

Top
#95732 - 04/21/06 05:36 AM Re: black toe [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hey guys,

Titan is such a wonderfull boy! He is taking is meds easily, and although he doesn't really like baytril, he's been a good sport about it. Maybe the mealworm has something to do with it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Since the vet visit i did not have to put the e-collar on him once, his foot is starting to show a reduction in swelling and he is somewhat more active now. I'm still hoping to report more good news with him, thanks again everyone for your help and thoughts! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" />

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#95733 - 04/21/06 05:50 AM Re: black toe [Re: ]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
[:"green"]Jack, I'm glad to hear that he's doing a bit better. Keep up the great work! You're a true Glider Champion!!!
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#95734 - 04/21/06 09:17 AM Re: black toe [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> sounds like you both are doing much better.. thank you for the updates (everyone here tends to worry about everybody elses gliders <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> we're just one great big happy family <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />).

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#95735 - 04/21/06 10:20 AM Re: black toe [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Thank you for the update, Jack. What all did the vet say about his toe? It is possible that it could fall off...only risk is possible systemic infection, so sometimes it's better to remove it if it's a goner anyway. Hopefully your guy won't mess with it, and great to hear he's taking his meds! Keep the updates coming, and you're doing a fine job! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#95736 - 04/28/06 05:37 AM Re: black toe [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sorry guys it took me so long to post back; computer viruses aren't fun. Ok, on better news, Titan's toe as started to dry up, and although his feet still has a bit of an inflamation, the baytril keeps it in check. He absolutely hates it, but i am now a professional at giving him his oral dose. Still eating, so i know he isnt doing any worse for his treatments. My vet says it's better to wait until either it falls off by itself(i doubt that but...) or until the swelling goes away so there will be less danger from the post-op infection. She is confident he is doing good, and does not fear for sm(i do! all the time <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> ) With time, baytrill and patience i will know the outcome of it all.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts!

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#95737 - 04/28/06 10:35 PM Re: black toe [Re: ]
KattyM Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 9910
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Jack, you're an amazing glider slave. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> So glad to know you found a glider-knowledgeable vet and Titan's condition is in check.
_________________________
Owned by my :grey: "Eight is Enough" colony:

• 2003: Hiroshi (M)
• 2009: Herbie (M)

:rbridge:
• 2002-2004: Keiko (F) and baby Tomoki (M)
• 2009: Sammy (F), Charlie (F), Murray (M)
• 2010: BJ (M)
My gallery

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#95738 - 05/08/06 09:33 PM Re: black toe [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


It is now been a while since i last updated this thread. I am on my last few drops of baytril and my titan still has the black stub of a toe. The foot doesn't seem to bother him anymore since the swelling went down 2 week ago. I have another appointment with my vet this week and i will see what she has to say about the whole thing. Here's a picture i took of him yesterday.


Attachments
569337-titan.jpg (31 downloads)


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#95739 - 05/08/06 09:44 PM Re: black toe [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I hope the vet visit goes well. Please let us know what you find out.

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