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#9600 - 09/07/03 05:16 PM needin a little help or advice throwing up momma
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
our recent additions, a breeding pair with a joey, have just moved to utah from texas.we obtained them from a vet office in dallas, they were abandoned by their former owners and were in rather haggard condition. they were in texas for three weeks before moving here to utah, and appeared to be doing well there, considering their condition. after arriving here, we assumed all was ok. they have reasonably settled into thier cage here, and for the last two days all seemed well. yesterday, while the momma was eating a mealie, i noticed she went to the top of the cage, and stuck out her tongue, as if perhaps choking. she went to the bottom of the cage and pushed her head around on the wire with her back legs propelling her. she sat near her water, and drank, moved around then drank some more, doing this routine a couple times in a few minutes. she then went to a corner and shook her head and propelled all the fluids out of her mouth. we got her out and went to the vet. during the trip she seemed o.k. when we got there, we had a scope down her to examine her airway, and all was clear. her fecal smear was good, and she urinated normally. there was no indications of parasites. she has been in a malnourished state since we got her, and she seems to be a little better weight wise. the joey is still nursing. the night before this all occurred, i noticed the father trying to attempt breeding her again. so im not sure if this is stressing her, or if the move or the baby or what. at this present time,the day following the vet trip, we got her up to feed her, as she had nothing apparently for dinner last night. she ate mealies voraciosly, and drank strawberry nectar well. we gave her a 3cc portion of bml in addition to the mealies, via drops from a syringe. shortly after we put her in her pouch, she gurged up most of the fluids. she appears a little dehydrated to me, but i know little of her history to know for sure. she does tent slightly. she does drink when in cage though. i am not sure if the strain of motherhood and nursing is causing this, coupled with the new surroundings. i dont imagine that she has had a lot of handling in her past, yet she is easy to hold, and appears very docile. as we have no vets in this state with any real experience, we are at a loggerheads. presently she is in my wifes shirt being cuddled and calmed. she appears restless when awakened, perhaps a little stressed, but nothing like the others we have had that had stress. she is not quaking when still. she walks a little like she should for being malnourished, and depleted from nursing. i have removed her wheel in an effort to calm her down. we are not aware of her age, but i am of the opinion that she is not older than a year. if we venture to the vet again, what should we have them do for the mother? is there any recommendation of what tests, or supplement we should be feeding her, what kind of treatment we should request? should we wean the perhaps 5 week out of pouch baby, or continue with mom nursing? we would appreciate any and all comments or concern from the forum. thanks... ray bailey and jen bailey in [censored] utah.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#9601 - 09/07/03 05:24 PM Re: needin a little help or advice throwing up momma [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Did you have a blood test done to check for parasites? I hope she's okay soon!

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#9602 - 09/07/03 05:39 PM Re: needin a little help or advice throwing up momma [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
we havent had a blood test done on her. the vet indicated that she didnt appear to have any signature of parasites in her fecal. i think we will feed her a little less in volume with a little more frequency. perhaps this will help keep things down, and boost her nutrition. thanks for your concern, we really do appreciate you and this forum.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#9603 - 09/07/03 05:47 PM Re: needin a little help or advice throwing up momma [Re: ]
Karin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/06/01
Posts: 11583
Loc: Sycamore Illinois
Jen...I would get her to a vet to at least administer fluids asap. She will dehydrate quickly if she is throwing up. Fecals don't always show parasites the first time, keep that in mind. Someone should be here shortly to advise any additional tests and help. We are pulling for the little momma.
Karin
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#9604 - 09/07/03 07:04 PM Re: needin a little help or advice throwing up momma [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
Blood work will not show parasites. Only fecals. Drawing blood from a glider can be very stessful.
Have you considered it could be the mealies that she is not able to digest? This would not be anything new if it is that.

I am sure your vet will know if she needs fluids or Vit b's in the fluid.

I would try and give her only bml for now and make sure she drinks plenty of fluids. Sometime Nectur can be kinda sweet. Pediyte can be a good source of fluids.

Please keep up posted
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#9605 - 09/07/03 07:42 PM Re: needin a little help or advice throwing up momma [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
My husband wrote the above post while I was trying to keep Mama still and quiet and she was sleeping in my shirt. Here is a little more info. (BTW-we changed their names to Fox-the dad- and Dana-mama. The baby my husband named William.
These gliders were being kept in one of the filthiest, stinkiest cages I have ever seen in my life. Both were severely undernourished and thin, their pouches hadn't been washed for at least 2 months, and there was sticky crud caked on everything. The folks at the vet's office where I got her didn't even know she had been pregnant or that there was a joey. Fox has gained weight and his coat is looking nice now, and mama had gained a bit and her coat was looking nicer until night before last she started refusing to eat. I think that nursing the baby is taking too much out of her. Yesterday at the vet, I did ask for a urinalysis and poss. X-ray in addition to the fecals, and was told it was unnecessary, that it was due to the baby and she'd be fine and was healthy. (She provided two urine samples for him that were as clear as water and completely odorless-which is worrying me still.) She weighed in at 64 grams, and the baby at 38 grams. Last night she would drink-nectar, gliderade, and water--A LOT, in fact, but wouldn't eat. We are putting pedialyte and BML down her via syringe today. She has little energy and while not shaking, is trembling a lot. We're wondering how to go about feeding a 5 week old joey in order to take that burden off of her. If she keeps this up, she's not going to make it and we'll have to anyway. I'd rather keep her alive, too. Baby has started sampling adult foods (gliderade, nectar, canteloupe, yogurt, and apple that I've seen). We're also afraid another trip down the mountain to the vet might be all the stress it takes to kill her. She is very weak at this point. Please help us save her. Any advice and suggestions will be helpful. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#9606 - 09/07/03 07:44 PM Re: needin a little help or advice throwing up momma [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I would back off the mealies, simply because they are high fat and can increase any nausea she might have.
As for weaning the baby, she should start weaning it here shortly anyway, probably already is or has. At 5 weeks oop, babies are usually eating on their own or beginning to. You might take some bml, add a little tiny bit of water to make it more liquid and then, offer to baby, maybe hand feed her some with a syringe. See how that goes, then show her the bml you made up for her. With the bml diet, if mom is malnourished, she should be perking up soon, assuming there is nothing else wrong with her. She'll get plenty of protein, etc from the bml for the time being! Maybe feed her some papaya, either dehydrated or fresh/frozen and see what that does. It's a good calcium source and helps with digestion, it might help her tummy. But, you do need to take her in and have your vet consult with another vet if they aren't comfortable treating her and diagnosing her. Stress will do strange things, and every glider is different, and will react differently to it. It could be stress, but it's very dangerous when a glider is throwing up and usually they need veterinary assistance immediately.

Please keep us updated on how she is doing.
Chey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worried2.gif" alt="" />

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#9607 - 09/07/03 07:48 PM Re: needin a little help or advice throwing up momma [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Jen...so sorry to hear about this sick mommy...I'm really not sure what the problem could be or what to do other than keep hand feeding her the BML...you might want to try every 4-6 hours, round the clock, if you can.

The baby, at 5 weeks OOP, should be able to start on BML. Try putting some in a baby food lid and seeing if he (she?) will eat it. If not, try it as a licky treat or try syringe feeding...is the baby able to eliminate on its own yet or is the mom still stimulating him?

Best of luck with the mom and baby, and keep us updated. (I konw you will!)

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#9608 - 09/15/03 03:52 PM Update on Dana and her Mate [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Well, I posted an update a little while ago, and it's dropped off the face of the earth. I'll try this again. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/upset.gif" alt="" />Mama Dana (scully) and her mate, Fox (mulder) passed away this last week after a sustained struggle to survive. Mama Dana left us on Tues. Sept. 9th at 11:35 pm after a five day battle. Meds and foods given around the clock were D5W sub-cutaneous injection, Baytril, calcium glubionate, BML (oral by syringe), pedialyte and water 50/50 (oral by syringe), yogurt to balance the antibiotic (oral by syringe) and fruit nectar. She fought so hard to live and care for her baby. After Sunday she could no longer care for the baby and Daddy Fox took over admirably.
Tuesday afternoon, about 9 hours before Dana left for the Bridge, Fox began to present with the same initial symptoms. Extreme nervousness, refusing food, and overactive. We began treating him, also. By the time Dana passed, he was as bad as it took her 3 days to get. We began hand-feeding the baby at that point and removed him from the cage. We had to hold him constantly (like we did her the last few days) to keep him from shaking hard enough to injure himself when he tried to move. He survived until 7pm Thurs. Sept 11th, and died in my son's hands. These two special gliders were rescues, and had been neglected and nearly starved before I brought them home. Through it all, they gave everything they had to their little baby that no one before me even knew they had. They stressed due to the trip home from TX to UT, and their little bodies didn't have the resources to pull through. I think Fox would have if not for the grief of losing Dana. They live still in their beautiful little baby boy, my husband named him William, who is doing well and is a little trooper <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />. We buried them in a clearing in the Uinta Mountains on Sunday. We'll miss them terribly. Thanks to all for your support. It's appreciated more than you know.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#9609 - 09/15/03 04:27 PM Re: Update on Dana and her Mate [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
I am so sorry for you. Dana and Fox are no longer suffering. They knew love for the brief time you had them. Their little one lives on with a part of each one in him. You did your very best trying to save Dana and Fox and that is all one can do. But they have not left this world in vain. You have learned much from the two.

Couple of things I may have done differently...a culture to determine what type of bacteria the gliders were fighting. Perhaps the Baytrill was not the med of choice. The little one...I would have pulled to help conserve the energy of the mother or at least hand fed him to keep him from nursing off of her.

As for the remaining little one...Perhaps a fecal float with a cytology should be done. This will determine if the bateria count is elevated in him...wither or not it is gram neg or positive should he need treatment.

Sending healing prayers that will help comfort your loss. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frostyangel.gif" alt="" />


Edited by Judie (09/16/03 02:25 PM)
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#9610 - 09/15/03 05:04 PM Re: Update on Dana and her Mate [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Baby checked out okay so far. We actually tried for the culture, but the vet (he is honest and straight with us) stated that they're having problems with the only lab here in the Salt Lake valley that handles veterinary samples. He said the samples were somehow being contaminated and coming back with results that made no sense, if they came back at all or didn't get mixed up. He said that if we were very lucky, we might have the results, for what they were worth, in two weeks, which would be too late to help in any case. Also, since we knew mamas resources were low to nonexistent, we had been feeding the baby before letting him spend brief periods with mom so he didn't tax her body any further. His presence seemed to calm her down and slow the shaking and frantic searching at his absence, which is the only reason we allowed him with her at all, as painful as it was to watch. You're right, we have learned a lot from them. Including just how strong a bond within a glider family unit exists. I didn't want to go into extreme detail in the post in Health and Hygeine, but can't seem to find the memorials forum-my computer's acting funny in here today. It's just mom's company the baby lost completely on Sunday. We knew she had to save as many of her resources as possible to have a chance. Thank you for the suggestions anyway, though. I wish the labs here were better.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#9611 - 09/15/03 05:52 PM Re: Update on Dana and her Mate [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Jen, the fecal profile can be done in the vets office and in about 20 min. They use a stain on a couple of glass slides. When the stain dries...the bacteria and other things..including pollen from fruit can be seen with a microscope. This is how they can determine what type of bacteria and percentage it is. It is normal to have all different kinds of bacteria ...however when a glider is stressed...then one that normally would not be of concern ....overgrowth occures. Not every vet is comfortable with doing this test...as they do not know what they are looking for because the animal is a sugar glider. This is where linking to a knowledgable vet comes into play.

Call your vet if possible and if he needs help...I can give you a number of a vet for him to consult with to do the test.
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#9612 - 09/15/03 06:20 PM Re: Update on Dana and her Mate [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


By chance where they suspicious of giardia or thrichomonas?

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#9613 - 09/15/03 07:34 PM Re: Update on Dana and her Mate [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Giradia or Trichomonas is difficult to find. Sometimes it may take several fecal saline floats to find it.


Edited by Judie (09/16/03 02:27 PM)
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#9614 - 09/16/03 01:43 PM Re: Update on Dana and her Mate [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Okay, I guess I'd better give some more detail, long or not. I'm having a bit of personal trouble with the loss of these two gliders, and am so furious at one of the vets I could just spit. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Needless to say, I'll NEVER take an animal back to the one. Anyway, here goes:
Wed. Sept. 03 was the day of the plane trip. I tried to minimize stress by taking them out of the old cage in the little cabana house they'd been in and that was covered with their own scent and putting it directly into the carrier, then into the new cage when we got home. All was fine until Fri. night, when Dana didn't eat much, if at all, and was very overactive. Her poops looked good, and otherwise she seemed normal. Even Riker has an off night at the food dish once in awhile. Saturday morning, we were feeding her & Fox some mealies and nectar by hand, and she started acting like she was choking, but all that came up was a little milky liquid. We called the vet (that I now won't return to) and headed down the mountain with the whole family. On the way, she ate some apple pieces and drank some juice and seemed okay, but I wanted her checked, anyway. At the vets office, I asked for fecal, urine, and and x-ray if necessary. They scoped her throat to look for an obstruction, and we found none. Fecal float/smear came back normal. He refused to do a urinalysis. At this point she was beginning to tent at the back of the neck, and I asked for sub-q fluids just as a precaution. I was again refused. She weighed in at 64 grams next-WAY too light, but still about 8 grams more than when I got her. I had expected more of a gain, however. The vet stated it was just because of the baby nursing and she would gain when he was weaned. I asked if there was nothing wrong, then why was she vomiting and dehydrating? All the answer I got was maybe she was just nervous from the trip, but that she was healthy. I was infuriated, but the other glider vet wasn't on duty at the other hospital until the next day and was unreachable, or she would have gone then. (Dad weighed in at 96 grams and the baby at 38 at the same visit). That day we gave her pedialyte/water & BML by syringe, and hand fed fruits with a high water content, and yogurt for a licky treat. She seemed to be doing okay, and no further episodes of vomiting until the next morning. She still wouldn't eat out of her dish, and was hyperactive. We continued food and fluids the next day, with one incident of vomiting around noon if I remember right, just a little liquid. We continued trying to keep her hydrated and fed Sunday. Late Sun. night she started shaking, and we immediately took her to the 2nd vet, whose treatment I outlined above. Nothing was showing up in the fecal samples, which was probably unusual in itself, and her urine was as clear as water and no detectable odor. Our emergency (Sun. night) vet will perform the tests we ask for, but is not an exotic vet. I am currently looking for a new reg. vet. I know something was wrong, but we had no one cooperating with us to find out what, except the ER vet who admits he wants to know more. I meant to ask for a number for another vet for ours to call, he would have, and didn't realize I'd forgotten until we were there (It's over 100 miles round trip to take these guys, and I don't mind doing it, but not quite feasible to run home, jump online for a number at 1 am, and go back).The 2nd vet, whose opinion I do value, thought this was triggered by the stress of the move. These animals were starved, living in a filthy, filthy cage, no toys, a 'hammock' that hadn't been washed in at least 6 months, and never handled, looked at, or talked to in the place I got them. From the info I could get, they had never bonded with anyone but each other. Just our handling them to treat them was making the stress that much worse. It was necessary, but damaging to them at the same time. I am sick at heart from losing them, but I don't know what else I could have done for them. That was why I was asking in the original pre-vet visit posts. They both went to the Rainbow bridge in our hands, with us telling them we were sorry and we loved them. One cannot force a vet to do a test he refuses to do. I don't have to go back there, however. If anyone knows a good vet in the Salt Lake valley that doesn't have Southeast Valley in it's name, Please let me know. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/upset.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#9615 - 09/16/03 02:34 PM Re: Update on Dana and her Mate [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Oh my. Glider was vomiting and the vet did not pick up on it. Gliders do not usally vomit unless they are really ill.
I have never heard of a glider vomiting out of just stress.

This is a big problem with vets who do not know much about gliders. And No, we cannot make them do certain tests that are really just basic nor can we get them to call a knowledgable vet. But if we do not like the bedside manner...one can walk out and search for a vet who is willing.

You have a vet who is willing to learn. My suggestion is to link him to a knowledgable vet and have some information faxed over to him as to common bacterial and protozian issues as well as meds and dosages. Big help...gather information here and then copy and give to him....this will help get him started.

I do hope things will get better for you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />
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